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Of course Spiegel Online does not like this -

Somalia of all places, where Germany obtained its greatest Phyrric victory of all times by means of Hans-Jürgen "Ayatollah style glasses" Wischnewski deceiving the Somalis over the nationality of the air pirates to be taken out. To appease the corrupt government in that country, Palestinian Arabs in support of Germans were declared German terrorists, by which Helmut Schmidt made a fool of himself in the eyes of the Somalis.

For Spiegel Online, this is all Baader-Meinhof redux.

Pyrrhic victory? What are the devastating costs to the victor? Somali public opinion?

I prefer such a victory to failed ops like Operation Eagle Claw or Credible Sport.

Do You have any sources for anybody claiming that the terrorists were Germans? I remember the radio communications between Landshut and the Mogadishu Tower, which made it quite clear that the terrorists were Arabs. The Somalis were only unhappy about the Germans taking prisoners IIRC.

"failed ops" like the one at the olympic games in Munich. Thats been a big german success wasn't it?


You are comparing apples with oranges:

No Western democracy had decent Anti-Terror capabilities in the late 1960´s / early 1970´s, the Munich era.

German in Name only claimed that Operation Feuerzauber (the Landshut-rescue) was a failure. Operation Eagle Claw is the standard example of a failed rescue operation during the late 1970´s / early 1980´s.

Stop whining, nobody attacked the US. Operation Eagle Claw is simply the appropriate benchmark for a failed operation at this point in time.

Last time I checked the UK was considered part of the West and its SAS and SBS regiments had years of experience in all types of clandestine operations including rescuing hostages. The Israelis had the Sayeret Matkal since the late 40's and by time of the hostage resuce at Entebbe in 1976 had participated in dozens of similar operations.

As to lauding Pres Obama there should be some awareness that it was the commander of the USS Bainbridge that gave the direct orders for the SEAL snipers to fire. And typically for a politician the plans, three different versions of four days, that were approved only created more confusion by saying to act only if Phillips was in "imminent danger" and then not define how someone who already a hostage was not in imminent danger. The person that dodged the bullet here was not the fourth Somali or Phillips but the President.

One last thing as it might be somewhat important that all of the interrogation techniques mentioned, except for the flying insects, are regularly part of the SEAR training that many enlisted men and officers undergo.

@Pat Patterson:
commando capabilities <> anti-terror capabilities

Both the SAS and the Sayeret Matkal are great e.g. for sabotage and assault operations behind enemy lines, but neither had a history of hostage rescue operations in the late 1960´s / early 1970´s IIRC.

I cannot remember any hostage rescue operations by the SAS prior to Operation Nimrod in 1980.

The Israelis succeeded in the 1972 hostage rescue of Operation Isotope, but failed e.g. in the Ma´alot-Massacre of 1974. They had some head start, as they invented the idea of skyjacking civilian airplanes to get civilian hostages in 1954.

"Stop whining, nobody attacked the US. Operation Eagle Claw is simply the appropriate benchmark for a failed operation at this point in time."
ok, then how about the Gladbeck Geiseldrama of the late 80s. By that time German Special forces should have been more experienced shouldn't they?


There seems to be some misunderstanding.

German in Name only claims that freeing the hostages of kidnapped Lufthansa plane Landshut was a failure. I disagree and compare it to the standard for a failed rescue attempt at this time, namely Operation Eagle Claw.

You seem not to believe that the operation in Mogadishu was a failure, yet quote earlier and later failed German rescue operation.


Operation Feuerzauber was no Pyrrhic victory, regardless of earlier and later failures.

Listing failed rescue attempts seems to be off-topic. Why do you do it?

It seems that you had misunderstood GermaninName's statement. He didn't claim that the commando operation in Mogadischu itself had been failure but that the german policy about the whole RAF - Palestinian terrorist connection had been.

Your reaction by pointing to the few unsuccessfull american operations, especially the failed Iran hostage rescue operation, shows the typical german viewpoint of supposedly low qualiy american special forces compared to a supposedly superhuman GSG9.
BTW, which other succesfull operations of your GSG9 do you know of?
A boxer that had only one big fight, which he might have even one, would never be considerd a great boxer.

Another proof that you are not only stupid but can't read german as well.
Dirk Nowitzky is not disliked because he is a german national.
The article by BILD (The newspaper known in germany for its low journalistic "quality") is not even giving any example of him being "disliked". All it says is that he isn't very famous in the US.

@ silly Phil,
While the headline is correct, the article actually said that he is loved in Dallas, but disliked in San Antonio since they are playing against each other in the playoffs. Nothing more than every Saturday in the Bundesliga.
It shows, however, the ridiculous reporting in the Goebbels Media. Some in San Antonio dislike him and all Amis hate that German.
Take an Exception and make an absolute out of it. That has always been the Propagandist style and will continue in Krautland. (like Amiland)
I know Phil, Germans are Uebermenschen, stupid Amis the dredge of Society.

Speaking of delusional German "reporting" about America, check out hate pedlar Pitzke's latest here. It's classic Pitzke, pure ideological narrative, with zero useful information about the conservative right in the US. Of course, Spiegel has always been about feeding bias rather than reporting the news, but it's particularly regrettable now, because there really are some interesting things going on politically in the US. It would be nice if Spiegel and the rest of the usual suspects would actually make a half hearted attempt at giving the German people a clue, instead of insulting their intelligence with horror stories about a nascent right wing "revolution." For example, people are actually starting to read the 9th and 10th amendments to the Constitution again, and pondering what they actually mean in this era when state power is growing like a terminal cancer. As for Obama, I must admit I've been taken aback by the degree of fawning hero worship we've seen in the German media since the election. There's actually a lot of nuance about the man, making it doubly unfortunate that the German people are being fed such a "dear leader" caricature. Still, let us be grateful for small blessings. If the German media are determined to portray Obama as a saint, there's no getting around the fact that he was elected by a majority of the American people. If nothing else, that fact is bound to reduce the level of gratuitous bitching we experienced under Bush.

"I know Phil, Germans are Uebermenschen, stupid Amis the dredge of Society."
Don't fall for Phil. I am quite sure he is fake. He is no german. I asume he is english trying to play agent provocateur.

I am absolutely shocked about the handling of Obama in german media. Things that would have been seen as outrageous by the media if they would have been done by Bush Jr. (e.g. telepointer, behaviour towards the Queen, handling of Pirates in Somlia....) are suddenly no big deal and even sometimes justified. The change of stance toward him compared to Bush is so obvious that I can not believe that germans aren't able to notice and wonder about the "neutrality" of their medias.

"Your reaction by pointing to the few unsuccessfull american operations, especially the failed Iran hostage rescue operation, shows the typical german viewpoint of supposedly low qualiy american special forces compared to a supposedly superhuman GSG9."

Humbug. You are projecting your own hyper-nationalism onto a neutral post. My comments should not be construed as an attack on the US Navy, the US Air Force, the US Coast Guard, the US Marine Corps, US Space Command, the US Postal Service, the Boy Scouts of America, the Girl Scouts of America or any other US institution.


"I am absolutely shocked about the handling of Obama in german media."

It would be a stretch to say I'm shocked by anything the German media does anymore, but I must say I nearly swallowed my gum reading some of the fawning treacle they've been turning out about Obama. The switch from violent, venomous hate to bootlicking lackeyism is enough to give you whiplash. It brings a smile to your face to recall that these groveling sycophants are the same ones who used to call Tony Blair "poodle" and "vassal."

@Tropby - The devastating cost is German public opinion, government ever since clandestinely wallowing in remorse, and therefore the lack of FOIA legislation up to the current day.

I did describe this as a Phyrric victory, not as a failure, but since you chose to put that word into my mouth I will explain why. Munich was a failure because the (West) German government of that time believed in exchange for appeasement Arafat would not perform operations on (West) German soil, and failed to respond to the fraud with a prompt decision to allow the Israelis proportional counter-operations just right here. On the other hand, the failure of Mogadishu can be described as such that the installation of a special police unit in the meantime in Germany became an excuse to repeat the very same mistake, continue the appeasement, and the self-destructive expectation that fraud could be countered with more fraud.

If you do remember Lufthansa Flight 181 radio communications, then you might also remember that it was the Israelis who broke the news in that night, from listening to precisely those radio communications. But can you also remember what Helmut Schmidt talked with Siad Barre and what Franz Josef Strauss talked with King Chalid and Crown Prince Fahd the day before?

@garydausz -

BTW, which other succesfull operations of your GSG9 do you know of?

Good question. In the Hansa Stavanger case their deployment failed due to bureaucratic reasons, because the pirates were quick enough to relocate the ship from international waters to Somali territorial waters. Current GSG9 action in Somalia is unthinkable to the German government because it would stir up the past fraud. And this fool asks about the cost to the victor...

Last news from Hansa Stavanger is that even the pirates have understood that relocating the hostages from the ship to a number of places on the mainland does only burden them with additional efforts, but not make a difference for the bureaucratic obstacle to paramilitary action, so they brought them back to the ship. To reconcile themselves with their weaseling employers, maybe the thwarted GSG9 can let off their steam on some street protesters at home, while the ransom is paid silently?

When he says he believes in polygraphs, does this make him a Scientologist?

@German in Name only:

Linking a lack of FOIA legislation to an extremely popular operation is ... an interesting concept.

You claim that Germany appeases terrorists. Well, this might explain why the major state sponsors of terrorism (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan) bought German weapon systems. Ooops, Germany refused to sell them anything heavier than small arms. The US on the other hand happily sells MBTs, frigates and jet fighters to these sponsors and apologists of Islamic terrorism ... but the US would never appease terrorists, oh no.*

Bashing Germany might be fun, but do some basic research.


*@garydausz: This - unlike my earlier posts - is an attack on US foreign policy. Sucking Wahabi cock is a disgrace, whether is done by Bush or by Clinton.

@Tropby - If it is so popular, so will be the question why can´t whe have more of this, as German sailors on a ship under German flag continue to be in the custody of Islamic terrorists?

You might feel bashed-up by these facts, but what I do is just minding my own business, auf Deutsch gesagt: Kehr´n vor der eigenen Tür! The Americans have their own culture of political criticism, and last time I checked it has been doing quite well. If that is what you want to export the lack thereof in the mentioned terrorist sponsor countries might come to attention.

If Fuchs tanks to Arabia are "small arms", then the generous price the Saudis paid is small change?

As I recall, it was the German chemical industry that provided the late, unlamented Saddam Hussain with his chemical weapons capability.

@Kevin Sampson

Saddam was an evil dictator, but no major sponsor of terrorism.

Selling dual-use stuff to him (as we and e.g. the US did) was no act of appeasement, as he posed no threat to us.

@German in Name Only:

The Fuchs sold to SA was no ´tank´, but an ABC detection unit. It is used to save lives; a similar version was given to the US.

I do not feel bashed despite your obvious Schadensfreude about German hostages, but I simply cannot follow your line of reasoning. There must be some miscommunication. Please explain e.g. "If that (the Americans culture of political criticism) is what you want to export the lack thereof in the mentioned terrorist sponsor countries might come to attention." and its relevance to a discussion about appeasing said states by exporting US weapon systems.

@Kevin Sampson - Germany is punished enough for that with the proliferation of Saudi corruption having resulted from the afermath. Still, the Saddam legacy, or more precisely the record what exactly they did when he went at war with the rest of the world, is one of the most reliable criteria to determine the intentions of the Saudis. While the Sheikh of Kuwait was sitting in a Dahran hotel room, the Saudis rallied their satellites in Cairo around a pact designed to replace the founding document of the United Nations. Only then he was allowed to apply to it.

@Tropby - Oh my. Strike out your second word in the brackets and it will make sense. You are advocating to export a culture of political criticism to the U.S., and I am telling you that destinations where they haven´t already got one are more apppropriate. Got it? Or still trying to project your remorse on me?

let's face it, Germany is the fifth largest weapons exporter in the world. Heckler & Koch even has a Factory in Iran, building weapons locally.
Don't come back with: Germany only exports weapons to friendly countries and is soooooo innocent.

Which brings me to an idea, how about Herr Steinmeier paying the ransom to the Somali pirates in arms?

Saddam was an evil dictator, but no major sponsor of terrorism.
Depends on your sense of scale. Such as the $25K paid to families of suicide bombers. Etc. Such as the assassination attempt on Dubya's Daddy. Etc.


Factually incorrect. Iran acquired a license to produce G3s under the Shah (not a sponsor of terrorism, friend of Israel); G3s (and only G3s, no modern weapons) are produced under said license by the state-owned Defense Industries Organization (Sazemane Sanaye Defa), not by a local subsidiary of H&K.

Upon your request, I shall not bore you with facts like Germany likely having the world´s most stringent weapon export regulations. SA e.g only bought US MBTs because Germany refused to sell them heavy weapons. Facts seem to have a liberal ^h^h^h^h pro-German bias.

@German in Name only

So I am advocating to export a culture of political criticism to the U.S. Wow. Live and learn.

Just curious: What kind of remorse am I projecting on you?

You justify German sales of chemical weapons technology to Saddam because 'he posed no threat to us', then claim Germany has 'the world´s most stringent weapon export regulations'. Yeah, those are some real stringent regulations you got there.

"Saddam was an evil dictator, but no major sponsor of terrorism."

It is not possible to be any more incorrect in that statement.

Saddam hosted terrorists (Abu Nidal), maintained a terrorist training camp at Salman Pak, provided defense for Ansar al Islam (an operational arm of Al Qaeda) against the Peshmerga with the Iraqi military, and much more.

All of that is common knowlege. It's all been widely discussed in media and on the web. There's no possible way to be ignorant of them unless that ignorance is by choice, or pretend.



There's lots more but I wont bore you with all the many thousands of links.

@Tropby - Scroll back yourself. And get Presse- und Informationsamt der Bundesregierung: Dokumentation zu den Ereignissen und Entscheidungen im Zusammenhang mit der Entführung von Hanns Martin Schleyer und der Lufthansa-Maschine Landshut, Anlage 20, Bundespressekonferenz mit Bundesinnenminister Maihofer, Staatsminister Wischnewski und Lufthansa-Vorstandsmitglied Utter nach der Befreiung der Geiseln in Mogadishu vom 19. Oktober 1977. Read p. 72*:

"We followed them to Mogadishu at the earliest possible time. This turned out a bit complicated, when one has no flyover permit, and when one has to fly around crisis corners, and one has to make sure to come from the right direction, to avoid irritating the next interlocutor by coming form the wrong direction." (translation: GINO)

There´s more.

From reading Tropby's ravings over the last couple of years, I would have to say from his/her command of the language and political stance, he/she is not German but an American lefty. Fits.

Have been gone for a while.

I am quite sure that Tropby, unlike Phil, is actually german. His kind of hypocriticial argumentation is so typical german that it is very hard to copy.

"You are projecting your own hyper-nationalism onto a neutral post."
Yes, this posting as all your other postings are so full of "neutrality" that you must be the son of a swiss alpine dog and a swedish furniture.

"(and only G3s, no modern weapons)"
Thats so cute of the germans that they help Iran only to get "old" weapons. I bet it will make the recipient of a bullet fired from a G3 feel much better to know that he wasn't hit by a "modern" weapon.

"So I am advocating to export a culture of political criticism to the U.S. Wow. Live and learn."
I do agree with you that you are actaly trying to export a culture, but it is the german culture of one sided and hypocrtitical criticism that can be witnessed in your media every day and which is not only apllied on the US but also on others and worst of all on your internal matters as well.
But it seems thats OK with you as you are happily reflecting this culture.

Is a ship unter a foreign flag with foreign sailors a German ship?

(The German owner has not yet disclosed the nationalities of the sailors under the Maltese flag.)

Or is the entire concept of nationality meaningless in the piracy waters, and the only safe option is an international Geleitzug?


Phil says:

@garydausz, listen up you Mistbengel, don't you take that tone with me. Don't you EVER dare question my allegiance to the fatherland.

Remember what Phil said about his nationality: I'm from Liechtenstein.
No, Phil, I would never question your allegiance to your Lichtensteiner fatherland.

"@garydausz, listen up you Mistbengel, don't you take that tone with me. Don't you EVER dare question my allegiance to the fatherland."
"Well GringoTex, I wouldn't be too proud of where you're comin' from. Your hillbilly grandparents probably got their asses kicked by the Mexicans and Comanche and your whole inbred bloodline is dealing in meth around Texas right now. That's what your kind does in those parts."

Isn't anybody monitoring this Web site forum anymore for vituperative and unnecessarily insulting language? It's getting distressing reading this stuff. It is getting out of hand. Why is everybody being so insulting to one another now? I thought this was a discussion forum, not a Beleidigungsfest.

It's useless being provoked by Tropby and Phil. Ad hominem arguments are admissions of intellectual bankruptcy, also morally suspect. It's a real turnoff, all this.

Please don't put Tropby in the same bag as Phil. Phil is a joke whereas Tropby is a perfect example for why this site exists at all.

I do agree that Phil should be banned but I see no reason why Tropby should be banned.

Davidsmedienkritik's, which once had a sterling reputation for reporting and registering how America is viewed through the lens of the German media and distorting glass of German politics, has a forum now that is turning into a forum for consistently abusive, hateful anti-American screed-writing due to one particular participant. I also remember how this guy wrote about how the U.S. media was dominated by Jews, who give the American press an anti-German bias. Do we need this?

What's quoted below is what "Phil" had to say, dated April 6, 2009. Now, if you came from the States, you'd know that only an "American Firster" of 1940 or a German "Bund" member would write stuff like what's written below, along the lines of Lindbergh and his ilk. But it's common for some Germans. My view is "Phil" is definitely German, and I say it owing to the small mistakes he makes when writing English in a few previous pieces he's contributed, mistakes a German native speaker might make.

    "Since the mass media in the US is under a heavy Jewish influence and Jews were badly persecuted by Germans in WW2, very little is reported about these unpleasant historical facts in the US media nowadays, they just don't fit the neat black and white anti-German historical image that is portrayed in virtually every movie that comes out of Hollywood. Actually in the 1920s and 1930s many more Americans were aware of these facts, since they had found out after WW1 that they had been lied to and misled by the British and used by the French in an inter-European conflict and that is why the US public was very reluctant to join WW2 for a long time, with isolationists wielding a considerable influence, since many Americans did not want to become tools of the British again, like in WW1."


Phil has completely made your point with his last comment.

"Well svetov, your name sounds Slavic, where are you from? Poland? Like Gdansk? Danzig?"

No response needed to his biggoted questions. He reveals more about himself than any polite, cultivated answer would require.


"Here is a short but interesting report on the Hummer, it represents everything America stands for: The militarism, the fatness, the waste and inefficiency, only in America could a car like that become a cultural icon."

I disagree. The US being the oldest existing federal Republic with a constitution is the biggest rub in the morally and intellectually bankrupt european eyes. Regarding cars... we have children. Big children actually. I am 185 cm... I am the runt of a big family. We all tend to have 3 or more children. We need big cars because we have big families and long distances to travel. Unlike white europeans. Your cultural is on its deathbed, so small cars, families and egos are ok and "environmentally friendly" (snigger, ha hahaha). Enjoy!!

@Phil - You´re soiling the carpet, Sir, here we go back to your bed.

@svetov - He really hasn´t got anything to say on the issue of Somali piracy. Can´t he pay his nurse to set up his won "Phils Amerikakritik" for him where he can hand out these links?

@Buckeye Abroad - When Germany had the current population density of the U.S., nobody knew of automobiles. In most of your country there are fewer narrow village downtowns left from that time, and your culture never tried to produce a demographic bomb. But this country is still so densely populated that there is no market niche between cars running on asphalted roads and farming/forestry equipment.

Don't feed the (mentally disabled) troll!!!

Of course, how that city suffered under the Soviet occupation was absolutely horrific... but be careful what you wish for, they might call it Das Fliegende Standgericht.


Of course one could argue that the Zionists were merely returning the favor to the citizens of Wurzburg for over 800 years of pogroms directed at their ancestors. Slave states usually collapse in funeral pyres and then wander a desert of their own making whining about Jews.

The order came directly from Barry Soetoro? BHO? POTUS?
No, it did not.
In addition, the rescued captain thanked a number of people for his rescue. He did not thank BHO, because he knew the truth.

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