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"More German tourists (is that a good thing?)"

More tourism is good, as people tend not to dislike people they know. Send more German tourist to the US and vice versa. Increase the number of exchange students.

The falling dollar seems to be the main factor behind the current tourism boom. It seems to have stabilized at an admittedly low level; I foresee no major change in shopping tourism.

So thank (or curse) Bush for Teutonic hordes looting stores in New York; the dollar devalued under his administration.

The Democrats and Obama are more isolationist and more protectionist than the Republicans. Prediction: like Hugo Chavez, who recently disowned the FARC, many terrorists are lying low until Obama’s supposed election. When and if he gets elected, terrorists will hit somewhere to test Obama.

If jihadists hit Europe during Obama’s term, and Europe requests assistance from the US, Obama will be much more likely than McCain to tell the Europeans, “That’s your problem.” Many who would previously have supported vigorous assistance to the Europeans will support Obama, even though they didn’t vote for him. Reason: the anti-American rhetoric emanating from Europe during Bushitler’s term has registered with many Americans.

More European troops in conflict zones if Obama gets elected? Outside of Europe, no. If the Iranian armed forces pulled a Normandy-style assault on the shores of Europe, the peace loving Europeans would ask them where they wanted to go, and lead them there. The military spirit in Europe, and the spirit of self-preservation, has pretty well been extinguished. An Obama presidency will not change that. During an Obama presidency there may well be European troops sent to conflict zones within Europe: the Paris no-go-to suburbs with the carbecues, etc. Whether said troops will do more than kumbaya, time will tell.

Fewer uncomfortable social encounters? Some Americans visiting Europe will be asked in sotto voice, why did you elect a N##$ president? I remember reading in Bruce Bawer’s While Europe Slept about how a number of times- not in Germany - he was asked if he were Jewish. And the Europeans did not ask the question in a friendly tone. For all the brouhaha the Europeans raise about the racist US, there are more bigots in Europe than in the US. Here is a dialogue from No Pasarán blog.

Many years ago, after first arriving in France, I was discussing race matters with a Frenchman in his 50s, who had challenged the United States on its "appalling" race relations…. This went on for a while in a similar fashion until he said…. "We Frenchmen acted in a smarter way than you Americans. We didn't let as many darker-skinned people enter our country."
I thus predict that some American tourists in Europe will be asked the above question.

RE: Tropby

"So thank (or curse) Bush for Teutonic hordes looting stores in New York; the dollar devalued under his administration. "

Well, the Euro didn't exist before Bush so that statement is sort of irrelevant.

Also, keep the tourists coming. Have you noticed that the best anti-American nuts are the ones who have never been here??

RE: GringofellowTex

I don't think the Europeans realize exactly what they've gotten themselves into. They have Obama fan site after Obama fan site not realizing that Obama intends to shut the door on the free ride they've been receiving for the past 63 years.

No more 35 hour work weeks. No more huge welfare benefits. No more free healthcare and university. This is what Obama is going to do for us, not them. They are going to scrap these things and purchase military hardware in order to replace what they have lost by campaigning so feverishly to put a like-minded man in the White House.

Obama intends to treat the European countries as equals, but he demands that they actually be equals first. The fact that Germany has 4,500 useless troops in Afghanistan while the US has 61,000 troops in Germany is disgusting. The fact that 85% of Germans want their useless troops to come home makes me furious. I've always been a Repbulican, but if Obama can turn our unwanted European children into adults then maybe I will refrain from voting in November (I would never directly vote Democratic, sorry)

So roll up your sleeves Europeans and learn what it is like to work 45 hours per week only to have a huge portion of your taxes go toward military equipment instead of comfort items.

or leave yourselves defenseless.. The choice is yours!!

@ Texas Blueblood:

"The fact that Germany has 4,500 useless troops in Afghanistan while the US has 61,000 troops in Germany is disgusting. The fact that 85% of Germans want their useless troops to come home makes me furious."

You do realize that US bases in Germany are a major logistics hub for operations in the Middle East and the main destination for seriously wounded soldiers from Iraq? They are no longer primarily used for the defense of NATO territory e.g. from the Soviets, but to project US power abroad.

OK, if You want to leave, leave. But do not blame Germany for GIs dying from logistical hiccups and lack of medical facilities while You struggle to recreate said facilities abroad. The US originally considered Turkey as an alternative, but has managed to damage US-Turkish relations. Have fun e.g. in Poland.

The creation of Ersatz-bases will of course be costly; Poland and Romania are quite willing to accept US bases, but unlike Germany they will not help financing their construction and upkeep.

You used derogatory terms to describe German troops twice. I am tempted to give some links to the recent track record of US troops ... but I resist doing so due to my belief in German-American friendship.

"OK, if You want to leave, leave. But do not blame Germany for GIs dying from logistical hiccups and lack of medical facilities while You struggle to recreate said facilities abroad. The US originally considered Turkey as an alternative, but has managed to damage US-Turkish relations. Have fun e.g. in Poland."

Uhh, yes, what a big problem it would be to run these hubs in Poland (irony). The only reason why they are, at the moment, still located in germany is because it would take some time to errect them somewhere else and because germanys "big brother" russia would probably find another "bullshit" reason why they mustn't be stationed in Poland.

"You used derogatory terms to describe German troops twice. I am tempted to give some links to the recent track record of US troops ... but I resist doing so due to my belief in German-American friendship."

But Tropby, some critic from a friend has to be possible...

Somehow I don't belief in your belief of a german-american friendship.


"Uhh, yes, what a big problem it would be to run these hubs in Poland (irony)."

Time. Building costs. No German subsidies. Lack of infrastructure. WP airfields have largely decayed.

Relocating advanced medical facilities takes a lot of time - I doubt that You could have them working at a decent level within a year. We are not talking about the 8055th MASH.

"Somehow I don't belief in your belief of a german-american friendship."

It has been tested in the last seven years.


I have to quit this discussion, as I have to prepare another business trip ... to Poland.

@ texas blueblood

"I don't think the Europeans realize exactly what they've gotten themselves into. They have Obama fan site after Obama fan site not realizing that Obama intends to shut the door on the free ride they've been receiving for the past 63 years."

well, it works both ways. the rest of the world would benefit if obama manages to reduce the us budget deficit. in 2005 the europeans, the japanese and especially the chinese were subsidizing the us economy by appr. 600 billion us-$. currently the us gets a free ride (at least as long as the rest of the world is keen on keeping the dollar relatively stable). many people hope that by reducing the us budget deficit the need to for the europeans and asians to subsidize the us economy would decrease.

"You do realize that US bases in Germany are a major logistics hub for operations in the Middle East and the main destination for seriously wounded soldiers from Iraq? They are no longer primarily used for the defense of NATO territory e.g. from the Soviets, but to project US power abroad."

I was an officer in the US army and I'm well aware of what we use/used Germany for. We actually like the Russians more than you so I don't see us coming to your aid in the future should they decide to exert their growing power over you.

I'm also well aware that we have military bases in 131 other countries. Our hospital ships fit comfortably in the Persian Gulf as well. We will be having fun in Poland and both of us will be staring angrily at your rich but weak little country. Oh and you have fun in Poland on your trip and learn what it is like to be despised by the locals. They're still a little sensitive about that whole mass murder and destruction thing and the 60+ years of poverty which has followed.

You guys sure have a lot of jokes about the poor Polish though don't you?? You should be working in their fields, not the other way around.

"You used derogatory terms to describe German troops twice. I am tempted to give some links to the recent track record of US troops ... but I resist doing so due to my belief in German-American friendship."

What a coward you are! I have thousands of links of pictures of Americans in caskets, or with brain injuries for every 1 picture of Abu Ghraib or whatever pathetic scandal you feel compelled to post!! Why would you even think that I needed to hear your brainwashed Der Spiegel nonsense anyway?? Do you think I am incapable of looking at the cover of Der Speigel??

And personally I couldn't care less about German-American friendship (you're worthless) so here are some links to German troops posing with dead bodies in Afghanistan.


Here's how Germans learn to shoot a machine gun..


Why weren't any of these on the front page of Der Spiegel?? Because it wouldn't allow you to feel self-righteous would it?? What a tragedy that would be. Der Spiegel, yes, "the mirror". You look into the mirror and see a brainwashed little fool looking back at you.

If I really wanted to get nasty I'd post some pictures of our soldiers liberating one of your camps. Don't you ever disrespect our soldiers.

I'll say it again.. German troops serve no greater purpose other than as biological factories to convert oxygen into carbon dioxide and make the German civilians feel as if they are still relevant to world affairs.

HINT: they are not

Wear it with pride, the yellow badge of cowardice.

"(at least as long as the rest of the world is keen on keeping the dollar relatively stable)."

Our military strength has exceeded the rest of the world combined. So if we didn't want to switch to our gold reserves we could always very easily just take yours. Also, don't include the EU peanut gallery in the list of nations capable of causing us economic harm.. The existence of the Euro has done what it is going to do. Don't forget that your days of ruling this planet have come and gone and will never return again Europeans. It's China, just China, that is a threatening world power. However, I don't think they would be so foolish as to collapse their own US-driven economy. Plus they get their food from us so I don't think hostilities toward us is a good idea.

Bring on Obama and make the Germans finally get to work, or bring on McCain and surround them with our military.. Either way life will change for you precious blue-eyed Communists. Maybe Der Spiegel can spend a few trillion Euros on military equipment to get you guys up to speed. Oh they don't have a few trillion Euros?? Well, I guess the welfare babies who read that garbage will have to get up a little earlier and get home a little later from work.

Germany is an ally of America, only in the minds of the same Wilsonian idiots that brought us such stunningly stupid socialist utopianisms as the League of Nations and the UN. One worlder, anti-national sovereignty scum. The same mindless morons that work every day to destroy the US from the inside in order to recreate our culture in whatever degenerate murder-suicide philosophy happens to be popular in EUtardia at the moment.

Germany is as close as it comes to our traditional enemy. Both world wars were fought against Germany. Germany is the home source for much of the rabid and irrational anti-Americanism that drains from the same brain sick infestation as anti-Semitism. Germany only finds value in hiding behind the US defensive umbrella when directly threatened by some bully. Germany can't even muster up the spine to manage its own defense needs.

German American friendship? Only in the minds of the same retards that constantly fall for whatever filthosophy the intellectual inbred "elite" of the EUnix can dribble out.

"Germany is the home source for much of the rabid and irrational anti-Americanism that drains from the same brain sick infestation as anti-Semitism"

You forgot childish, cowardly and counter-productive.

Wow, Grimmy... next time don't sugar-coat it. Tell us what you really think.

But back to the original question: I think that if [God forbid] Obama were elected, there would be a EUphoria on that side of the Atlantic at first, with plenty of articles of how the Bush era is finally to an end, hallelujah. After a short honeymoon, it would be back to business as usual. There is too much invested in anti-Americanism in Germany to abandon it just because of a fellow socialist in the White House.


Why lie to them? Why pretend it is anything other than what it is? The Germans want to play their idiot games, then let them reap the rewards. If the Germans want good relations with the US, then it is ALL up to the Germans. We've given them massive aid, help, support and protection over the decades and gotten little back but the same, tired, incompetent passive aggressive crap that the Germans have been pissing out on everyone for at least a full century... in between their more openly aggressive mass murder and blood glutting phases.

We owe them nothing but grief.

Why lie to them?

Hell, anti-Americanism, German style, once declared Americans to have no soul and are therefore less than human. Sound familiar? German anti-Americanism predates Bush, pre-dates WW2, predates the nazi scum and pre-dates even WW1. They're just sticking to their sick, nasty, twisted intellectual inbred pattern. It's the apologists for their bullshit that are the deluded fools.

Wow you guys have all the best EUisms!!

"We owe them nothing but grief."

YES brother!! There is such a thing as being too late to apologize. We worked so hard to get the peanut gallery of nations to work together and when it came time for them to help us they chose to poke us in the eye instead. I hope we exclude them from sitting at the grown-ups table forever at the very least and at most we have Dresden 1945 part 2!! These bastards even criticize the Marshall Plan!! This time we should be sure to leave them in the rubble.

If they aren't trying to conquer Europe by force they are trying to deprive the other European nations of their sovereignty by underhanded political means. Thank God, the Irish told you where you can shove it Germans.

Mr. Gorbachev, rebuild this wall!!

Jeez, easy there folks! It's been a real hoot reading all of these American-European commentaries as of late (and quite an eye opener as well -- knew it was bad, just didn't have a handle on just how much rancor had been seeping out around the seams).
But seriously, to answer the question -- I think that at first Europe would no doubt be overjoyed w/ Barry as prez.
And then the poo would hit the fan.
America under Obama could become extremely isolationist -- pull out of Germany? That would be the least of it I'm afraid. My daughter's in the Army as an MI analyst, there's already been whisperings that when (ominously, not "if") Obama gets the White House the cutbacks and pull outs would make Clinton's look trite. As for protectionism, that would probably increase, which I honestly don't see helping the world economy at all; Obama's also a big supporter of "Big Corn" -- there would most likely be a very big corn for ethanol program, and that would drive world food prices up, wouldn't do a blasted thing for capping fuel costs, and doesn't do much towards solving that global warming issue so many are afraid of (in fact, it might make it even worse than just sticking with crude) -- and as an Illinoisan I can assure you that too many years of no crop rotation would just about knock out field productivity, and again, not good for feeding people long term. And I think he'd brush off the EU and the UN and broker (or try to broker) his own aggreements with Iran and Co. -- so much for the end of unilateralism; "Bozo McCowboy" (as some would like to snigger) would look like a blooming saint of compromise in comparison.
As I've said before, and will say again: Obama has no interests but his Chicago Machine buddies and his own self-aggrandizement at heart, moreso than most American politicos, and he's not the keenest blade in the cupboard either methinks. If he's elected, I can almost grant a more isolationist/protectionist/unilateral minded America (although he'll likely give some wonderful speeches to you concerning his cooperation and globalism); worse case scenario, things get so bad that America completely destablizes socially -- and I don't think that's good for America (my chief concern) or anyone else (yes, it would be damn tempting to cut you guys loose and see if you would sink or swim, in weaker moments it does indeed come to mind, but that's being emotional and reactionary imho).
Here's a question to ponder back: Is it better to have a stable U.S. on (at least politically) friendly terms with Europe, with at leas some form of mutual aid/reciprocity or not? And the same question back, in reverse as it were, to my American "bruthas and sistas" here: Is it better to have a stable Europe on (at least politically) friendly (and etc.) terms, or not? I think it's better to at least stay on some terms of mutual cooperation, but don't call the shots for each other -- I don't want America as a "Europa West", as it isn't supposed to be and shouldn't...as for Europe, well, it's supposed to be Europe, not America. Really, the world would be a better place if people realized that acting like monkeys throwing crap at each other from seperate trees -- maybe time to stop with the anti nonsense on both sides, maybe time to start right here and now.

More German tourists in America? More American tourists in Germany? Well, hell, why not...hopefully the respective parties would be able to act in a becoming manner...
As for sending more German students to American schools -- well, ok, but as an educator (both secondary and university) I give you advance warning: American education isn't what it used to be (of course then I think that's pretty much a problem everywhere today, at least from what I've seen of exchange students).

"Really, the world would be a better place if people realized that acting like monkeys throwing crap at each other from seperate trees -- maybe time to stop with the anti nonsense on both sides, maybe time to start right here and now."

No, now is the time to recognize Germany as our greatest historical enemy and defeat them while they are still weak. We have nothing to gain with them as friends. They are at best economic competitors who support Iran and Venezuela to our great detriment.

The Romans after having three wars with the Carthaginians finally wised up and burned Carthage to the ground and (according to legend) threw salt in their fields so that nothing could grow again.

The Roman Empire survived another 1,000 years. The Carthaginians were utterly destroyed.

The British Empire thought that Germany would never rise again, but they miscalculated and were so adversely affected by the second war with Germany that they lost their empire.

Are we really so foolish as to allow this to happen to us??

Let's face it the Germans have become so meek that just a little bit of intimidation on our part would go a long, long way towards letting them know that they are playing with fire by continuing to antagonize us.

FDR ordered the fire-bombing of the mostly cultural and non-military city of Dresden in 1945 in order to tell the Germans that they "are a defeated people". They got the message for about 50 years, but most of those people who got the message are dead now. We desperately need to send the present generation of Germans the same message.

They will not support our enemies. They will not attempt economic warfare on the US. They will not attempt to gain control over Europe through military or political means.

The Germans are lucky they have any friends at all after what they've done. They have squandered the friendship and protection of the richest, strongest and most influential country on Earth. Now watch as they slide off the slippery slope.

Unknown Jane:
Here is an example of how American exchange students are treated in Germany in recent years. I doubt that German exchange students in the US are similarly interrogated about Schroeder’s corruption and his taking an anti-American stance to win in 2002. Given Schroeder’s post-political employer, the charge of corruption stands, I believe.

I doubt that German exchange students are interrogated about Herta Däubler-Gmelin, who compared Bush to Hitler back in 2002. Herta’a doing so rather annoyed Americans at the time. My own annoyance increased when information about her father’s role in WW2 came out recently. When that is what Papa did, it is not a good idea to compare anything that Amis do what Adolf Nazi did. What she said annoyed Amis, and would have even if her father had spent WW2 in resistance to Hitler. Her comparison also showed gross ignorance about history: such an ignoramus becomes Justice Minister? But for her to say what she did when Papa did what he did: makes one suspect that she was trying to foist guilt about her father on the Amis:the Amis are just as bad as we are. Such dishonesty doesn’t go over very well with me - and most Amis , I suspect. We do not appreciate being used as punching bags. I basically don’t care what Papa did in the war, but when daughter said what she said, given what Papa did, what Papa did in the war becomes an issue. It appears that what Papa did in the war was at least a partial cause for what she said. At least to me.

Perhaps German exchange students will not get such questions in the US because most of their Ami peers are unaware of Herta Däubler-Gmelin and Schroeder. Ignorance can become bliss. Amis who read this blog are more knowledgeable about Germany than the average Ami, and as a result have a more negative view of Germany than the average Ami. Though I for one do not go so far as Texas Blueblood. Perhaps because my current annoyance with Germany is tempered by good relations years ago w Germans in Latin America as co workers and fellow tourists. I preferred Germans to Brits (difficulty in adapting to a new place) or the French (too arrogant).

Another anecdote on Ami-German relations. My brother-in-law immigrated from Germany as a child, and given the current political climate is reluctant to visit Germany again, given the hostility to Bush et al. His first wife was German. They met when he was a US Army officer stationed in Germany, and they visited Germany frequently after they were married. It isn’t as if he has never been back.

Ah, guys, again, isn't this a bit...emotional?
Now, there's nothing wrong with an emotional reaction to things, but the trouble with emotional reactions is that it starts to block out the reasoned response. When (at least it appears) that entire countries are engaged in what could quaintly be called a p@#$ing contest with each other it behooves at least some people to refer to the "better qualities of their nature" and rise above such things. Besides, I have experienced some of what was described in that article Gringo, and while the easy way out would have been to become cowed and resentful, or defensive and apologetic, that's no way to live one's life -- at least in my book. It's certainly no way to base one's foreign policy (or domestic for that matter) decisions; it isn't supposed to be a popularity contest after all. Games (both national and personal) of who's the top dog in the neighborhood don't impress, nor frighten me -- and they shouldn't. They shouldn't be such an ignition point for other Americans (or anyone else for that matter) either.

The matters of Venezuela and Iran? We should do what we need to do to protect our best interests. Much of the same in regards to working within the UN or any other alliance we have (that includes military bases) -- if it's in our best interests to stay, we should stay, if not, then we should pull out, and before the law of diminishing returns tips against us. But this has to be done not from an emotional/reactionary level. So, until Germany starts lobbing bombs at us or we get multiple intelligence reports that the Germans are planning on invading with the object of conquest of the U.S. on the agenda I really don't think we should be talking about stomping them into the dust; same goes for what "the Grand Satanic Cowboy" stated about coming to the aid of allies when they might be in need -- until a country proves itself to be beyond question no longer an ally (and again the law of diminishing returns), then we honor our commitments because that's what allies do (darn that stinkin' cowpoke! how inconvenient for him to say such a thing, huh?).
Doesn't mean we have to have a national love-fest with each other. And as for international trade competition? Well, that's the nature of the beast with all countries isn't it? Just as long as the kicks, bites, and kidney punches don't get too out of control so as to set things off kilter.

And for all of you Germans out there: it might be, er, a nice consideration to perhaps stand down a bit with the "We Hate Americans" rhetoric (or encourage some of your countrymen to do so) -- it is a bit wearisome after a while(even for someone who's relatively stoic), and it obviously is beginning to incite a fair bit of backlash; that can't be good for the long term or the big picture. I realize that most of you all are probably a bit weary of the WWII/Nazi/little Austrian corporal talk (and it's probably time for Americans to stand down from that a bit), and I don't begrudge you one iota of national pride, but judging from some of your publicized rhetoric -- well, might be in the best interests of everyone to just cool off a bit (the salivating over the prospects of dead American soldiers is really in my opinion glaringly low class, and you certainly wouldn't like it if the shoe was on the other foot and Americans were doing the same over your sons and daughters).

unknown jane:

Just speaking for myself here but here's the only reply you'll get on this issue from me.

You are an educator. Ignorance is not a good thing. Study the fricking pattern. This goes back at least a full century. It is constant, consistent and non varying. Anti-Americanism is nothing new. It stems from the exact same source as their anti-semitism. It is irrational hatred that has no reason nor need for reason behind it. It DOES serve to motivate enemy to come against us. It IS used by our current active enemy as part of their justification to want to slaughter our people.

Now, specifically to the Germans at this particular point in history. These spineless, feckless cowards cant even step up to assist in their own defense. They refuse to provide competent guards for facilities in Germany and Afghanistan that they have contracted to provide so that our own forces can be put to use in the fight. A fight that benefits the Germans as much as anyone else outside of islam. They talk about honoring the NATO alliance but demand that the few soldiers they send not actually be used to do any fighting because that would "help the Americans in their illegal war of aggression". Not talking about Iraq. Afghanistan. Even in fighting against the Taliban, a fight they agreed to help with, it's "the Illegal American War".

The official German position since we've been in this fight has been to suck up and swallow, without critical thought, any and all enemy produced propaganda. Anything that makes Americans look, sound, seem evil must be true. Because Americans are just really evil that way.

These are NOT allies. They have been nothing but parasites.

The Germans do NOTHING but encourage our enemy in its predations against us. NOTHING but.

Even now, with areas such as Darfur, Sudan, etc flaring up with islamist aggression, the Germans and the rest of the worthless EUnix do nothing but sit on their intellectually inbred "moral superiority" and demand that "someone do something!!"(tm). Not them, of course. Someone. That someone, of course, is the US. And, of course, when we do finally free up our fighting forces enough to deal with those issues, as we eventually must, we will hear an endless chorus of "illegal American aggression" and "American war-criminals" and whatever other slanders and liable that the suicidally stupid left of the EU vomits up as rant-o-chants to paint on their posters as they march in the streets to demand justice be delivered to the US by our enemy.

The hatred you hear here against the Germans and EU in general is not irrational or without reason. It is an earned hatred. Pretending it is otherwise does no one any favors and is, in fact, an act of deceit. There are plenty good folk in Germany and the EU. These folk need to know how hard and harsh the opinion is growing against their countries over here. We are their ONLY defense and this defense is getting ever more resentful against them.

Playing the "cant we all just get along?" game only ensures them a whole field of hard rows to hoe in the near future. Especially when the reality that the mule they're used to pulling their plow may well decide to sit it out.

I was at one time quite favorably inclined towards Germany, given my German surname, exposure through my family to German folk songs and German language when a child, and from my experience with Germans I had interacted with in Latin America. I also had a German roommate one semester in grad school.Not to mention a brother in law born in Germany.

Suffice it to say that given what I have read in the last six years, I am not as favorably inclined towards Germany. The more I have learned about Germany, the less favorably inclined I have become.

Germany has lost friends in the US in the last six years. If Germany wishes to continue to lose friends in the US, all it has to do is continue on its current path.

What would the Amis appreciate? More balanced reporting about the US. Less Ami-bashing. One does not see negative reporting about Germany in the US press to the extent that there is Ami-bashing in the German press. Pull its own weight in Afghanistan, for example. Realize that being a soldier in a battle zone in the third world is not the equivalent of being a policeman in a wealthy tree-lined suburb in the first world.


Some of your comments make me think that you're an American anti-American. Perhaps your close association with a German is clouding your mind and making you yet another one of our brothers and sisters seeking a pat on the back from our enemies. Do not make anymore stereotypical comments about the president to give them ammunition. He is from Connecticut, not Texas, you should know that. His fraudulent accent and persona were designed to lead the easily-led into believing him to be a man of the earthy people of our country. He is a born politician and one of the craftiest and most resilient politicians in our history. He is also a staunchly pro-American, non-elitist and I have infinitely more respect for a man who would trade popularity for what is right for our country rather than someone who seeks cheap praise from our enemies.

Do not make blanket statements regarding the state of our educational system as our schools vary widely from state to state and district to district. Should you have found yourself matriculating in a less than average environment, that is either your mother and father's fault or your own.

However, the most annoying point that you are trying to make is that the Germans are on equal terms with us when it comes to dispensing hardship. Their GDP, population, military and cultural influence is vastly dwarfed by our own. Should we come to blows they will lose easily.

I understand that it is in your best interest to keep the peace as you have married a German. I have very little patience for sellouts no matter who their spouse is. Do not think that any pervious loyalty you have had for our country will save you or your husband from the camps. Nothing would do my heart better than to let the Israelis loose on the general population of Germany.

The Germans only pick on us because they believe that nothing will come of it. Please lookup the meaning of "blue blood" and you might see that I come from the ruling class of our society. Those of us from our class believe that the Germans should be permanently excluded from the list of nations relevant to world affairs. We in Texas are stereotyped by your clock-punching ilk as pitchfork-wielding, inbred hicks, yet in reality we are the world's energy and aerospace capital. Won't it be an unpleasant surprise when we hicks launch tungsten rods from space into the German's government and communications infrastructure??

Enough with your calls for level-headedness. This nation can serve us no further, nor can you.

While I understand the disappointment with the anti-Americanism that so many of my German countrymen have unfortunately embraced, you shouldn't be too hard in your overall judgement. Especially in the older generation, there are still many people who remember what the US did for us after WW 2. They know well enough that no other nation on this earth would have stood by our side in this way, and that no other country would have invested so much money and blood for our freedom. But as you know, this simple truth is increasingly unpopular and left-wingers can get quite aggressive in discussions. Sometimes people seem to be reluctant to speak openly about their true feelings. As far as the younger generations are concerned - you know how it is: Leftist viewpoints always seem to be very popular among them, but that often changes over time. However, the German education systems does its part NOT to teach young people otherwise. Two main reasons for that:

1) There are a lot of teachers of the "68er" generation. Anti-Americanism has always been one of their mantras, and that hasn't changed.
2) History lessons in school usually cover the centuries after WW 2 to a very small extent anyway.

Another reason for the persistance of anti-Americanism is of course the MSM. One has only to look to the US: The MSM do their best to hype Barack Hussein Obama, and a lot of people fall for it. It's the same here in Germany, only that here they hype left-wing viewpoints in general, of which anti-Americanism is only one. Distorting the public's view about Afghanistan (let alone Iraq) is another example. Truth be told, they are so successful that even politicians who are supposed to be conservative or libertarian seem to see no other way than parrot the MSM's viewpoints: They are afraid that otherwise they might get bad press (which of course they get anyway).

It's really not a beautiful situation overall, and maybe hard to comprehend from the outside. After all, in the US you at least have talk radio and a much bigger blogosphere. They can counter the MSM, but they have another very important function: When you do have freedom of the press in your country, but all the media outlets more or less follow the same path in regard of certain viewpoints and arguments, then why should you ever doubt their reporting to be "the" truth? You'd need a reason first, a kind of "catalyst". And that's where the new media come into play, when they for the first time present people with positions they might not even have thought about. And they can show people that they're not alone with their "politically incorrect" thoughts, maybe leading them to be more outspoken themselves. Germany and, as far as I see it, Europe overall still lack these kinds of "catalysts".

So much for an analysis of the situation. What could be done about? Is a question I can't answer.

Well, gentlemen (and ladies perhaps, although I'm assuming you're all gentlemen), in regards to your responses to my postings I humbly ask that you go back and read through what I said again. I don't consider the comments pertaining to America should act according to her own best interests and practice diplomacy/foreign policy according to the laws of diminishing returns as being particularly anti-American or the earmark of a sell-out. I should think that puts me pretty squarely into the pro-American American camp. The fact that I don't believe it is excessively wise or considered to base one's foreign policy on emotional reaction or public opinion really all that unpatriotic.

The request for people to stand down and reconsider their words and appealing to level-headedness I consider simple commonsense. It certainly isn't apologism and definitely not the act of a traitor. And to top it all off I do believe the request was of an equilateral nature.

As for my comments concerning President Bush, again, I do ask that those who took such umbrage go back and re-read what was posted and the context. I realize sarcasm and irony don't often translate well, nonetheless let me make it clear now that I was in no way heaping derision upon our president -- rather trying to make a point that those who have (and have made such offhand remarks as I used for effect -- sorry if you didn't get that implication I'll try to express myself more clearly in the future) might be in for a bit of a rude shock here shortly if things take a turn for the worse, and we may all be missing "the cowboy" here presently (although I'm hoping things don't go rotten, as I'd rather things went well).

As for my comments concerning the American educational system, I'm unapologetic. I hate the way it's been going -- true learning, critical holistic thinking, and personal accountablity shoved aside in favor of PC pap, standardized testing numbers, and feel-good self-esteem building nonsense. There is no bitterness here vis a vis career advancement; there is a lot of frustration at not being allowed to really teach anymore. And I cared about actually teaching students to think for themselves. And no, this isn't a problem unique to the U.S., which beggars the question, is this how we all serve our children best? (and an excellent quote from GW: "the soft racism of low expectations" -- very good comment, applies to more than minorities, we all should take some heed).

As for what a person can do about the situation -- my only response would be this: it's time to take up arms...not in the literal sense, but the arms of free, individual thought and word. The only thing anyone can do is to not sit back and allow oneself to be brainwashed and lulled into complacency and to speak up in the hopes that others aren't either. There isn't really anything else a person can do other than that. All a person can do is to try their best at the moment at hand.

And now for a bit of a rant of my own:
As ex military, coming from a family of veterans (and not just one or two, more like every male member and a fair number of the females), having friends who are veterans (and one still serving), and with a child preparing to deploy and another preparing to induct I take a bit of offense at the presumption that I'm some sort of loony, lefty, hippie-dippy peacenik psuedo-American country hater (not that there aren't many fine folks who espouse such things, I don't happen to share their views and am not one myself). My family and I always took our vow to protect and defend both the people of the U.S.A. and the Constitution quite seriously -- from the most elite down to the lowest peon, against enemies both foreign and domestic, with no regrets or reservations, and I speak for us all when I say I'd gladly do it all over again...including that "German" I'm married too that seems to somehow be deserving of a concentration camp or being torn apart by, seemingly, rabid Israelies (sorry, we both know some fellows who were Israeli Army -- nice folks, got along with them swimmingly, don't think they wanted to tear either my husband or I apart). Yep, he renounced his dual citizenship in order to serve in our Army (Ranger too...combat veteran even).

I guess one shouldn't jump to too many conclusions.

And as for all of the "war words" being bandied about: never, ever, should anyone play around with such words and thoughts lightly...ever. War isn't some game and words to the matter aren't to be tossed about lightly like some beach ball. I think only a person who has never seen war in its reality would ever dare to do it -- not wise my friends, not politically, philosopically, or personally. Once again, best to cool it, as you know what they say about speaking something into being -- war and genocide are not things to be spoken into existence...and that goes for everyone.

Re: jane

Very well put! It's dangerous to get so vituperative about another country like some of the people have been doing here lately. Some of these blog comments sound like outright declarations of war! The German press is certainly guilty of great anti-American bias and outright fostering of stupidity about the United States; and, yes, the German people seem perverse and ungrateful, but warring words are dangerous and could lead us down a path toward dire but logical consequences. Germany is still an ally. The law of diminishing returns is indeed the correct measure to gauge these relations by. Hot-headed reactions and schemes of vengeance are bad ideas and grounds for action. There is much to criticize and sometimes dislike about the Germans -- and about Germany as a country. But one should try to be somewhat more careful with the language one uses. One problem, by the way, seems to be with the younger Germans. I don't know where all this will lead. I found Schröder to be at fault for creating this vile climate in the press since 2002. He and his ilk were responsible for calling up these feelings among the Krauts. Maybe we should behave better as Amis, huh?

Oops. I meant with that last sentence: that we as Amis should not behave like a great many of the Krauts have been doing since 2002! I still blame the leaders for this climate, and that means what Schröder and his gang wrought here.

"What would be the difference or benefit in real terms for the United States and its people?"


re: Buckeye abroad

Don't be ridiculous. In terms of trade, Germany is quite important as a trading partner. The world is interconnected to a vast extent, inextricably so, especially economically. The German business elite has been shaken up quite a bit as of late, and German laws for punishing business malfeasance are too lax; but Germany is a vital trade partner for the States and not to be underestimated. That goes vice versa too.

The message is circulating within this blog: We Amis who are aware of what has been emanating from Germany since at least 2002, are increasingly dissatisfied with Germany. Are Germans aware of this? It seems to me that a lot of the anti-American rhetoric and posturing from Germany is taken from an adolescent point of view: it is assumed that there will be no consequence. Calling Papa a dummkopf will not result in sonny boy and daughter dearest being tossed out in the street, so the adolescent feels free to do so. How many Germans realize that their excessive rhetoric and posturing has reached the point where it can do permanent damage to German-American relations?

While certain sectors of the far right and far left in Germany have always been anti-American, Schroeder the Sellout and Herta the Harridan changed things for the worse in 2002.

There is much willful ignorance to the point of near idiocy in the blatherings of those who make excuses for the German in this and play the moral equivalence bullcrap.

This did NOT start in 2002. Did NOT start with 9/11 or anything that came after it. Did NOT start with the election of GWB. This HAS been the behavior of Germans in particular, and euroscum in general since there's been an America.

Now, the filthy scum DO cause us real harm. DO cause us to have to shed even more blood. They filthosophies and anti-American propaganda that have dribbled out of europe over the last century like a sick slurry of blood and feces from a ruptured anus is part and parcel of every enemys' motivation and "mission statement" when they offer up their rationalizations for killing our people.

Europe owes us blood.

The hatred is real and it is growing.

Now, I don't post these words to start a fight or play the troll. I really give less than half a handful of squat for the feelings of the apologizers and/or those who beg and snivel for acceptance from a people of europe who have ALWAYS viewed Americans to be "somewhat less than human" and the ultimate evil.

But, there are decent folk in europe. Those are who these words are meant for. Wake up. The clock is running out on you and your kith and kin. You will need us again. Even the most hateful of my kith and kin would come to your aid, except... you couldn't get off your damn arse and square your area away. No one, no people, no place is perfect and no one says you should be. But, you don't even try.

So, unless you, the decent folk, start waking the hell up and make yourselves known, and start taking care of business and at least start trying to defend yourselves, don't expect anything from us except ridicule on the day of your need.

Gentlemen and lady, I'm not going to engage in the vituperation, but I hope that you will remember that you're making these statements and accusations on a German blog staffed by folks that should be considered to have some modicum of patriotic feeling for their country. With a few exceptions you are in the same boat.

Making a forceful statement of belief is an effort to awaken German commenters to a general dissatisfaction in the US with what is seen as an ungracious attitude on the part of the Europeans. I think that we can be forceful without being taken by animus.

As far as al-'Bama is concerned I think that the paths are already being traveled so his election wouldn't change a thing.

Ok, I could agree with the last two paragraphs to a certain extent. But why is it that nobody can seem to go 5 seconds here without resorting to some sort of bloody-mindedness or mentioning...the Big One?

And I'm asking all sides, because it seems to me everyone is guilty.

Ah, I get it -- nobody really wants to try and find any common ground here. It's much better to just go along with the accepted party line and the media headline, and whatever our little buddies we hang with say too, right? I mean, really, to go against the prevailing train of thought would just upset the philosophical applecarts for both sides, and we don't need any loose apples.

So I tell you what, are there any Germans on this board reading this? How about you Tropby, or you Mir (I'm not mistaken that you two are possibly German right?)...ok, here's what you need to do: you need to come to America...and you need to come and shoot me. That's right, just walk right up to my door and when I come to answer it you can shoot me; probably need to shoot my kids too and my old mom, because we're Americans, and my husband (although since he was German once he could probably be tortured into renouncing his Americanization, possibly, if not then you'll have to shoot him too). Because after all, we are those blood-sucking, fat, stupid, lazy, Americans without any souls -- isn't that the party line? Maybe you'll even get rewarded for it or something, but at least you'll feel justified in walking up to my door and shooting me and my kids because after all, all Americans are evil.
Now, who can we get from the American side....I can't do it, I'll be dead (plus I think I'd be a dead concentious objecter, but nonetheless quite dead, so I'd be of no use) -- how about you Grimmy, or you Gringo? Yeah, ok you need to go over and take out a German family...just walk right up and blow their brains out when they answer the door...be sure to get all the kiddies too, because remember: they're back-stabbing Krauts, each and every one of 'em, all hatched from the same Teutonic, jack-booted, Nazi nest -- you'll proably receive a prize too, or at least know you were justified in doing so; after all, all Germans are evil.

Hey, and no backing out due to squeamishness, time to walk the talk, I'd say for humanitarian concerns try to kill the babies in one shot.

How's that plan sound to everyone huh? I mean after all, after reading here and other places that seems to be the proper way to think about each other, right? If you don't that just proves you're an appeaser and a sniveller, don't want to be considered a coward now do you fellas?

Or does it really sound a bit over the top, and quite frankly stupid, if not awful? Perhaps an alternative, like maybe, say, actually trying to put aside the party line and listen to each other in a mutally respectful fashion, acknowledging and accepting that there will be differences but trying to find a common ground nonetheless, perhaps that sounds a bit better after all?

Ok, I guess I'm a historical figure since I'm not going to accomplish any thing today.

Jane, it's doubtful that you're going to resolve anything by being self righteous. Try using facts and figures instead of innuendo in your effort to make your point, I doubt that anyone on this thread is going to go berserk and start WWV. And I doubt that you're going to be the victim any time soon, so you can still go out your door.

@ Gringo Tex

"Germany has lost friends in the US in the last six years. If Germany wishes to continue to lose friends in the US, all it has to do is continue on its current path."

The US has lost friends in the world in the last six years: I visit several non-political internet fora (e.g. technology, hobby) and there has been a growing dis-enchantment with current US policies in their off-topic discussions, admittedly even among conservative US citizens ... Read the recent BBC report about the popularity of major nations.

@ Texas Blueblood

I was referring to the less-than-stellar performance of US troops in recent NATO competitions involving e.g. paratroopers and ABC-personal. It is quite interesting that You associate US forces with human rights abuses ...

@ Jane

About shooting You: I - being a German - admittedly advocated more exchange students; a Teutonic accent might cause pain, but it is rarely lethal.

But seriously, re-read the thread. I fail to see me following a party line or being insulting.

mike, what grimmy and especially texas blueblood have done is disgusting, to say the least.
there is absolutely no justification for what they have written here. putting people into concentration camps like texas blueblood suggested or calling others parasites, like grimmy did, is outright fascist. those things can't be tolerated regardless of whom they supposedly support.
your advise to stop being self-rightious should've therefore been directed towards grimmy and texas blueblood and not somebody else.

Jeez oh flip, what the hell is going on here?

Ok, one issue at a time. European anti-Americanism is a pathology that pre-dates the formation of the U.S. (I can't believe I'm reposting this for like the 100th time.)

A Genealogy of Anti-Americanism.

Who occupies the White House will have absolutely no bearing on it at all because Europeans - not just Germans - require it for their sense of self-worth.

The U.S. is in for some really tough economic times. That means so is the rest of the world. Obama's economic policies, as far as I can tell what the hell they are - mostly more taxes and resdistribution, will just make it worse. McCain will try to tighten things up, but he's going to have a majority Democratic Congress that will be difficult to work with. One can only hope he would find the veto pen sooner than Bush did. Bernacke is just about out of ammo - maybe one rate hike at the next FOMC - but that's about it.

And as long as the oil futures are denominated in dollars and the dollar remains weak - which it will - we're all going to get it in the neck.

I would also like to point out that most of the Germans responsible for the horrors of the 20th century are dead. You can't visit the sins of the father on the child. But apparently, it's something they are willing to do to themselves. I, too, have come here and bitched about the deployment of German troops in Afghanistan. I mean, why bother, if they're not going to fight?

FranzisM (who is German) responded to that with something to the effect that for Germans, violence is akin to drugs or alchohol to an addict - they dare not go near it.

That was probably the saddest thing I'd read in a long time.

So, there may be another dynamic at work here other than trying to not help the Americans.

And someone noted that FDR ordered the firebombing of Dresden. I think that is incorrect. Arthur Harris, Royal Air Force, did that.

Just another example of how anti-Americanism is a tool for explaining away the perceived wrongs one suffers.

And totally phantasmagorical.

Guess who's responsible for the Irish 'No' vote on the 'Lisbon Treaty'?

The words were clear: "Europe has powerful enemies on the other side of the Atlantic, gifted with considerable financial means." The speaker was France's Europe Minister Jean-Pierre Jouyet, addressing a pro-European rally in Lyon at the weekend. He was putting the blame for the Irish rejection of the Lisbon Treaty on some surprising shoulders: neoconservatives in the United States. "The role of the American neocons was very important in the victory of the 'no,'" he said.

The Boogeymen - BOO!

@ Tropby

I visit several non-political internet fora (e.g. technology, hobby) and there has been a growing dis-enchantment with current US policies in their off-topic discussions, admittedly even among conservative US citizens

So what does that prove? Nothing. Don't get me wrong: The Bush administration has indeed done several things wrong. But for the MSM and other anti-Americans the "current US policies" are often only a welcome reason to mask their anti-Americanism as "criticism".

By the way: It's one of President Bush's greatest features is that he doesn't change his opinions and decisions based on what the MSM wants or what the "world opinion" thinks. Don't forget that Ronald Reagan had to face similar stupidities from MSM, leftists and "peace" activists all over the world. History, as was foreseeable, has proven them to be totally wrong.

It could be the same with the decisions of President Bush, although that is less predictable. Right now, I only hope that the Americans will elect McCain as President. While he is far from perfect, he will ensure that the US won't abandon the people of Iraq and Afghanistan before they are able to defend themselves from enemies within and from the outside. Only then could the vision of President Bush of change towards freedom and democracy in the region come true (an outcome that most of the MSM, leftists and unfortunately parts of the Democratic party want to prevent, because it would be the repeat of the Ronald Reagan story and would hurt if not destroy their credibility in these matters).

I visit several non-political internet fora (e.g. technology, hobby) and there has been a growing dis-enchantment with current US policies in their off-topic discussions, admittedly even among conservative US citizens.

I am fully aware of that. My point is that the disenchantment is reciprocal. The EUROSNEERS such as Schroeder the Sellout and Herta the Harridan have resulted in increasing support for isolationism in the US. In the last six years, more Americans have become aware of European attitudes. The American response to EUROSNEERS will not be to prostrate themselves before the EUROSNEERS such as Markus Gunther and say, “Oh mighty EUROSNEER, I apologize for my oafish behavior,” but rather to decide, “Europe isn’t worth it.”

At the same time, many have pointed out that the anti-Americanism was always under the surface. Some have compared it to a virus waiting to erupt. Schroeder the Sellout and Herta the Harridan would not have said what they said about the US back in 2002 if they hadn’t known in advance that there was substantial support for their points of view. By contrast, the odds of a US politician saying the “N” word in the presence of other people are extremely small because were the politician to utter the “N” word, the politician knows full well a firestorm of condemnation would result. Schroeder the Sellout and Herta the Harridan knew that such strong condemnation would not be coming from their countrymen . They calculated, most likely correctly, that such utterances would increase their chances for election. All that Schroeder the Sellout and Herta the Harridan did was to 1) make it more socially acceptable to utter such statements instead of suppressing then and 2) make Amis more aware of the strong undercurrent of anti-Americanism in many parts of the EU.

Here is another example of anti-Americanism that predates not only the Iraq War, but 9/11.From The Legend of the Squandered Sympathy:

In the weeks leading up to the 9/11 attacks, Le Monde had embarked on what seemed like a veritable campaign of incitement against the United States, complete with editorial cartoons on an almost daily basis that would not have been out of place in the most rabidly anti-American specimens of the Arab press. The July 2001 G8 meetings in Genoa provided the occasion, for instance, for a front-page offering of dubious taste by the paper's lead cartoonist Plantu. It shows George W. Bush, protesters in the background, giving orders to seven figures, representing the other participating nations, who are variously depicted as bound, gagged, and blindfolded by American flags or impaled through a variety of orifices upon the flagpoles bearing them. “Tell these kids to stop the violence!” Bush demands.
Given such examples of anti-Americanism before the toppling of Saddam, I am not inclined to get all upset about any such growing disenchantment that Tropby accurately describes. The anti-American contingent in the EU just needed an excuse, and the Iraq War and Dubya provided it.


Reread the question: "Let's assume that Obama wins the upcoming election and people in Germany and France suddenly begin to love the United States a whole lot more. What would be the difference or benefit in real terms for the United States and its people?"

None. Despite having a sympathetic socialist in the White House, no real "benefits" would materialize like manta from EU heaven for the American people. Jetisson the emtional hubbub about President Bush and "neo-cons" (a created label if there ever was one) and what real context is there left? The real local issues (economy, social policies, security threats, etc...) are something alot of people are advserse to realize or attempt to understand, let alone disussing rationally, so the defense mechanism's of denial and projection leap in to push those issues further from the EU peripherial (political) edge.

Anti-Americanism has been around alot longer than November, 2000, and will always be there, but the good thing is most us (Americans) can live with it. The lack of understanding of the fundamental difference in our political and social structures can lead to admonishment at times, but can co-exist without conflict. The only differences are that most Americans do not care how EU nations administer themselves and can live without learning how their parlimentary procedures work as they know they have no influence or impact on them anyway. What I have concerns about, is the EU leadership incorporating anti-American rhetoric (ie. Schroeder 2002) in their campaigns and undemocratic methods to push through unpopular legislation (Lisbon).

lars, my statement stands.

FYI. Berlin forum calls for Israel's destruction.

“Representatives of Germany's foreign and economics ministries are fumbling the hot potato of who, exactly, backed a conference in Berlin last week that became a mouthpiece for anti-Semitic Iranian propaganda and a call for Israel's destruction.
Iran's former deputy minister of foreign Affairs, Dr. Muhammad Javad Ardashir Larijani, told the Third Transatlantic Conference - whose stated purpose was to address "common solutions" in the Middle East - that "the Zionist project" should be "cancelled" and "has failed miserably and has only caused terrible damage to the region."
Representatives from Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia also attended the conference and voiced brazen anti-Israeli statements.
The conference was a source of great embarrassment for the German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, whose ministry served as one of its main sponsors. Critics argue that Steinmeier's Iran policy is ignoring Israel's security interests at a crucial period in German-Israeli relations. ”
From Powerline:
“ Naturally, the conference also featured denial of the Holocaust, which is a crime in Germany. Larijani, whose brother Ali was Iran's former chief nuclear negotiator and is its current parliament speaker, helpfully explained that "denial of the Holocaust in the Muslim world has nothing to do with anti-Semitism."
In response to rumors of government financial support for the conference, a spokeswoman for that ministry said that "the Foreign Ministry did not financially support the event." (emphasis added) Subsequently, the spokewoman did not deny that her ministry had played a role in supporting the anti-Israel conference. She also stated that the Federal Ministry of Economics had funded the conference. In short, the German taxpayer helped pay for the event, and the Foreign Ministry helped pave the way for it.
In Israel earlier this year, German Chancellor Angela Merkel declared the security of Israel to be part of Germany's overall national interests. However, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has come under criticism from supporters of Israel over his policy towards Iran.
Reasonable people can disagree over what the German Foreign Ministry's Iran policy should be. One would have thought it beyond dispute, however, that the German Foreign Ministry should not be sponsoring, supporting, or faciltating a conference whose goal is to "cancel" Israel, and that the Federal Economic Ministry should not be financing such a conference. ”
More fish to fry. Perhaps we should be very glad when Germany chooses to have nothing to do with foreign affairs, if this is what is produced from German involvement in foreign affairs. And this is from a German government that is supposed to be more sensible than that of Sellout Schroeder.

The Jerusalem post is a former Conrad Black ´newspaper´, that lost its qualified staff to the Jerusalem Report

Powerline is a blog that criticized President Bush for being insufficiently conservative.

Both are not only more conservative than Attila, but known for their lack of journalistic integrity.

Get decent sources.

Both are not only more conservative than Attila, but known for their lack of journalistic integrity. Get decent source
Please document “lack of journalistic integrity.”
Here is another source.

And now You are linking to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, which quotes the head of the Central Council of Jews as its sole source.

There is - to be polite - some potential anti-Iranian bias here.

But let us assume for discussion´s sake that the facts are mostly correct (I have some doubts):

So what? There is little US-Iranian dialog and trade, while Germany maintains contacts with Iran. Guess which nation is brokering the upcoming release of IDF-soldiers. Correct, it is Germany, acting upon the request of the Israeli government.

“It is ‘better to jaw-jaw than to war-war,” Winston Churchill

"Get decent sources."

Yes, Tropby, your sources are, off course, all "decent" sources I assume.
I bet you think e.g. the BBC or Spiegel is a "decent" source, don't you?

@ Gringo Tex.
"Perhaps we should be very glad when Germany chooses to have nothing to do with foreign affairs, if this is what is produced from German involvement in foreign affairs."
Ya got something there. The first sovereign act by Genscher in 1991 was to recognize Croatia and then the Balkan wars started. Everybody was horrified at what was in effect a German Alleingang. Many think it was the Germans who were responsible for the emergence of ethnic warfare there. Then think of Schröder, his whole history plus his rotten instincts toward America and other things too numerous to mention; then his former gofer Steinmeier. Maybe it would be far better if the Germans didn't involve themselves in foreign affairs. They have the ambition to do so, though. They have a history of doing weird things like paying terrorists when they blackmail the Bundesregierung with hostage-taking, thereby helping finance terror. They let the Munich 1972 Palestinian murderers go, scot free. They tolerate many a Middle Eastern terrorist group in exile on German soil, not to speak of other beefs, like giving a un-surveilled base for operations to Mohammed Atta and Ramzi bin al Sibh, Jarrah and the other creeps who lived in Hamburg. There is much to condemn the Germans for, and they are inept or else our enemies when it comes to some things they do in foreign policy, no doubt of it. They are still our allies, though -- until the rewards get so small and the disadvantages so large, that's the way it is. The French are also a pain.

Both are not only more conservative than Attila, but known for their lack of journalistic integrity.Get decent sources.
Here is an excerpt of what Financial Times of Germany had to say on the matter. (partly machine translation, partly mine to render into more idiomatic English)

“Organisator Bernd Kubbig ahnte offenbar, welches Unheil er sich ins Haus geholt hatte und bat nach Laridschanis Rede darum, Nachfragen nur zum Thema der Konferenz zu stellen. Als Journalisten der israelischen Tageszeitungen "Yedioth Ahronoth" und "Haaretz" insistierten, legte Laridschani nach: Die Leugnung des Holocaust in der muslimischen Welt habe nichts mit Antisemitismus zu tun. Zudem habe Präsident Mahmud Ahmadinedschad niemals den Holocaust geleugnet.

Organizer Bernd Kubbig apparently anticipated which evil he had got in the house and asked journalists to put inquiries to Larijani /Laridschanis only on the subject of the conference. When journalists of the Israeli newspapers "Yedioth Ahronoth" and "Haaretz" insisted, Laridschani added fuel to the fire: The denial of the Holocaust in the Muslim world has to do nothing with anti-Semitism. Besides, president Mahmud Ahmadinejad/ Ahmadinedschad has never denied the Holocaust.

If news of this did not appear in the likes of BBC and der Spiegel, then what does this say about THEIR integrity and completeness of coverage? Just wondering. Perhaps BBC and der Spiegel did cover it , but I havn't been able to find evidence that they had.

And now you are linking to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, which quotes the head of the Central Council of Jews as its sole source. There is - to be polite - some potential anti-Iranian bias here. But let us assume for discussion´s sake that the facts are mostly correct (I have some doubts).

Golly gee whiz, I wonder where anti-Iranian bias may have come from. Perhaps it came listening to Ahmadinejad denying the Holocaust. "They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets." Calling a historical fact a myth is tantamount to denial, contrary to what Dr. Larijani /Laridschanis may claim. Not to mention the Holocaust Denial Conference Iran hosted a while back. ( Call a spade a spade, I say.)

Let us recall Ahmadinejad’s letter to Chancellor Merkel, who fortunately does not view things in the same way as Ahmadinejad.

“I am sorry to remind you that today the perpetual claimants against the great people of Germany are the bullying powers and the Zionists that founded the Al-Qods Occupying Regime with the force of bayonets in the Middle East.

I have no intention of arguing about the Holocaust. But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them. Their purpose has been to weaken their morale and their inspiration in order to obstruct their progress and power. In addition to the people of Germany, the peoples of the Middle East have also borne the brunt of the Holocaust.

Regrettably, the influence of the Zionists in the economy, media and some centers of political power has endangered interests of the European nations and has robbed them of many opportunities. The main alibi for this approach is the extortion they exact from the Holocaust…
But just imagine where Germany would be today in terms of its eminence among the freedom-loving nations, Muslims of the world and peoples of Europe, if such a situation did not exist and the governments in power in Germany had said no to the extortions by the Zionists and had not supported the greatest enemy of mankind.”

As far as I am concerned, anyone who is worried about potential anti-Iranian bias, better called anti-Mullah bias, should put it in his pipe and smoke it.

@ Gringo Tex. Anyone who is worried about anti-Iranian bias, better called anit-Mullah bias ...
Mister Trogby has some strange opinions. You hit it on the button, Mr. Gringo Tex. I wonder what's behind Trogby's citing Jewish news sources as unreliable on this subject. Why are they unreliable? People under threat can recognize what is threatening them, no? And I do mean Jewish, because Trogby doesn't consider just the Jerusalem Post as unreliable but also the JTA. He doesn't even hide behind "Israeli" or "Zionist" but is pretty open about it, it seems. Is this the dreaded and vile neocon conspiracy that Trogby is hinting at? How wise of him.


An argumentum ad hominem with an added slanderous defamation as part of a classical ad hominem fallacy.

Sorry, You loose.

It is really easy to out-debate most American conservatives; they are not only lacking in basic human decency, as shown by said outrageous lie, but their debating skill are stuck at Kindergarten level.

@ garydausz, GringoTex

This Tropby guy just demonstrates two standardleftist tactics in a discussion:

1. If you can't argue against the message - attack the messenger.

2. If you can't argue against concrete facts - try to undermine the general credibility of your opponent, for example try to "prove" him or her to be an "evil" (neo)conservative.

Lars: Can you even define fascist? Do you even know what fascism actually even means? No, I am not a fascist. Hurting your poor feelings does not qualify me as a fascist.

Now, about the parasitism:

Germany exists as a nation because other nations, predominantly the US, made it so. Germany did very nearly nothing to earn its existence. It was made by others willing to spend the treasure and stand the force to make it so. Now that the US needs a hand, Germany can do nothing more than play the pathetic passive aggressive games of cowards.

They'll promise forces to help in Afghanistan.... and then, once the plans are made and forces allocated, add in all the strings of not being able to actually engage the enemy, or provide any real help in the fight. They are there, but not really. So, American forces and other nations' soldiers must be reallocated because the Germans, among others, are absolutely incapable of functioning in the real world.

That's just one of the long list of reasons to heap hatred upon the nation that has always been our enemy, except when it had a need to be protected from another enemy.

Baath party made from the nazi party doctrine. Muslim Brotherhood and the reinvention of expansionist islamism having as much to do with '30s writings on "the philosophies of the Germans" as it does with actual islam. German socialized medicine being possible only because US tax payers subsidize the German (and the rest of the parasitic world's) access to pharmaceuticals at cost of production.

That's just a sample.

The hatred is real.
The hatred has been earned.

It isn't universal, nor is it irreversible. But that can change. And as far as the US having lost friends over the last decade... yeah, especially among those who adhere exclusively to the propaganda of any and all who wish the US destroyed in the first place. Yet another reason...

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