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David Harnasch is funny (quite a find, by the way), the woman is mentally disturbed (she even has the empty look in her eyes that goes along perfectly). That's what happens when feelings replace reality.

Just last week there was a piece on the leftist German state-owned ZDF where they actually revelled in a whole lot of those 9/11 consiracy theries. They called it a "report".

Today the same station is breaking the "news", that the fireproofing of the steel girders was unsatisfactory. Here is the online viedeo. They are citing one Roger Morse. What they are presenting as "new" today (actually 1/2 hour ago) is already 5 years old, as everyone can see in this report from January 2002.

I have no clue whether the contents of that 2002 paper are right or wrong. My point is: why is a German TV station going ahead and undigging this stuff after five years? And also: why do they represent that stuff 100% one-sided? It's not news at all, so what's the purpose?

part of me is taking this in as all info-tainment. like the new thing is to check the interstate (what we call it in the hills..) to see the latest moron tax funded leftist spout off on challenged by the manginas in the media. I know I'm supposed to take this seriously and that thousands died for this jerk to deny that thousands were murdered but with the new media its just getting silly.
I feel like a punk rocker again having to watch normal music being played and sniggering all the way.
can you just imagine if these people just got to do this all day without a word spoken against them, why it would be like, like, the first twenty years of my life.
thank you for publicizing this well-fed freak and the idiot that put her on, keep it up.

Well, perhaps she's just concerned with having any more disco accidents.

>> Is it any wonder then - with individuals like Ms. Claussen in positions of influence - and German public television offering them a ready-made platform to propagate their ideas - that so many Germans have so little sympathy towards the United States and the victims of 9/11?

Not really. On the other hand, there's no excuse for people not to think for themselves and not to preserve their own moral compass. Yes, we have a voluntary censorship in a large part of our MSM, and the shown segment seems to be a part of their disinformation we have gotten used to. BUT we don't live under a totalitarian regime. The real information and the important news are out there, and easier than ever to access.

There is not a German journalist alive who does not practice the journalistic malpractice you spoke of (vis-a-vis the USA). Not in this country (Germany), at least. Nobody even notices this here, of course. Nobody notices it because an alternative point of view would require that someone actually stand up and speak a real = contradictory opinion. That simply doesn't happen here or, if it does, nobody is interested in filming it.

WHATDOIKNOW:
is completely right. That woman is crazy; even has the googley eyes of a fanatic. What gets accomplished by putting these people on 'serious' TV programs I have no idea. Loved the pointless transition to Germany: X on the 13th said that German nuclear plants were not protected against similar airplane accidents. Panic. Im stocking up on Herring, Leberwuerstchen and Jever. Panic. We need a leader to save us...I nominated Heino and Dieter Boehlen (whoever that prat from Modern Talking was who beats up his Turkish wives/girlfriends/acquiantences)

The Revolution starts now. We have theme music and its very very bad.

@bob

X on the 13th said that German nuclear plants were not protected against similar airplane accidents

please tell me no one really said that and this is just your sense of humor. please.

The Revolution starts now. We have theme music and its very very bad.

Your sense of humor, is nonetheless, pretty damned good.

Ok.

In the pathology of the left, the only collective that has moral authority is the collective of the victim.

In order to deny the Amis moral authority, it is necessary to deny them the status of 'victim'.

Hence, 'accident'.

No mystery here.


"Is it any wonder then - with individuals like Ms. Claussen in positions of influence - and German public television offering them a ready-made platform to propagate their ideas - that so many Germans have so little sympathy towards the United States and the victims of 9/11?"

Just two days ago yet another fellow German told me that "the USA deserve a little terror". Mind you, this guy also explained to me how he totally loved the US just a few years ago, but then realized how evil the West is.
In either case, it takes a special kind of emotion to declare that someone *deserves* terror. Terror as conducted most of the time and especially today is irregular violence that is targetting civilians, with the goal to kill and maim as manny as possible. I think the proper emotion for that is called hatred which is wrong regardless of what the media says.
I can't remember the last time when *I* was hoping for ANY civilians from ANY place on earth to be maimed or killed. Then again, if anyone ever has a hard time again imagining how the pre-planned murder of millions of innocents by Germany in WWII could have been possible, then I know he just isn't listening enough to the folks. Oh, I know, please stop wiz ze Nazi-Keule, Herr N.! Well, how about they stop with the Nazi part first?

BTW, the above guy was a 40 yo member of the Bundeswehr, working in administrative duties in some Kreiswehrersatzsamt or something. Actually, it was a good discussion until he tried to explain how communism makes sense, how the US is run by a regime, is christian fundamentalistic and the above point. What baffled me was how he did realize the media hype about man-made climate change and views it with a grain of salt, but when it comes to the US there seems to be nothing too phantastic to believe. I think that is because folks here really WANT to believe it and won't let reality get into the way. The Hun is either at your feet, or at your throat, as a wise man once put it.

"On the other hand, there's no excuse for people not to think for themselves and not to preserve their own moral compass." -Mir

My point.

@Pamela

"In the pathology of the left, the only collective that has moral authority is the collective of the victim.
In order to deny the Amis moral authority, it is necessary to deny them the status of 'victim'.
Hence, 'accident'. No mystery here."

German is a powerful language. Kafka's novels just don't have the same terrifying punch in English. The realization that the attacks of 911 are referred to on German TV as "airplane accidents" is certainly shocking enough for English speakers. However, listening to this robot-eyed loon's rant in the original German is really, really scary.

I just re-read Orwell's "1984." Please, do yourself a favor and read it or re-read it yourself. The man was a genius, and, as a prophet, he may yet put Nostradamus in the shade. Think "1984" is no longer relevant since the downfall of Communism? Think again! "1984" isn't about Communism, it's about the ultimate totalitarian state.

See, in particular, the chapter about "Newspeak," the new language that will make it impossible to even think "incorrectly." Orwell had a front row seat to the evolution of Newspeak in Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany, but he realized it was no mere passing fashion of the 20th century, unique to systems that were, ultimately, doomed. It is the favored mode of thought of the totalitarian mind, and we have just seen its latest, stunning manifestation on German TV. You see, for the minions of the new totalitarianism, the United States is the epitome of evil, and, as the ultimate, perfect oppressor, cannot possibly be "attacked" by its own victims. No! We have just seen that, in the modern Newspeak, it will become impossible to even formulate the concept of an "attack" on such a demonic power.

The 911 attacks unabashedly described as "airplane accidents" in the new, "democratic" Germany, where "freedom of the press" prevails? If this doesn't truly scare you, you just don't understand what you've seen. You just don't get it.

Unfortunately I'm German, sorry to say ;-)

Sometimes I DON'T wonder anymore how all the Nazi stuff could happen when I read that the US "deserve a little terror". Just unbelievable.

This site has the most sophisticated commenters I have yet seen. Excellent observations. The American-style english written by you Germans is perfect! Very nice.

I am afraid that western europe has become morally and intellectually anesthetized. Sadly when the general population finally "wises up" it will be too late to change things without bloodshed, and lots of it. So much for multiculturism and diversity.

Ah, Orwell. Would that we had him now. The man knew how to toss an insult.

Looking through the photographs of the New Year's Honours List, I am struck (as usual) by the quite exceptional ugliness and vulgarity of the faces displayed there. It seems to be almost the rule that the kind of person who earns the right to call himself Lord Percy de Falcontowers should look at best like an overfed publican and at worst like a tax collector with a duodenal ulcer.

January 7, 1944

Dumber than dirt.

Eurabia is just around the corner. This moonbat deserves her burka as much as the public flogging. A possible stoning would also be in order, because Allah is most compassionate and mercyful.

One must suspect an ulterior motive:

Females like Claussen are targeted by Muslims, agents of Islam, - not for their beauty, but for their position and politcal influence. One wouldn't put it past her. That her twisted views have something to do with what her Turkish or Lebanese lover wispers in her ears should not be discounted.

There is a segment of the Angry Left in Germany that is determined to deny or alter the reality of September 11, 2001.

Unfortunately, they're not just in Germany.

"Germans respond well to lies. At least, they have historically." - P.J. O'Rourke, *Euroweenies,* 1988

@Bob -
The Revolution starts now. We have theme music and its very very bad.

We will take up our arms and storm the battlements in the name of our rights. And when we breach the wall, we will make them give us better theme music!


@J-Lin -
Don't lose heart altogether. My experience of most of the rest of Europe is that the anesthetized are vocal, so they appear larger than they are, and the prevalence of their "opinions" in media makes them appear to be even an larger segment of the population than they actually are. The number of rational folks outside of France is still substantial, and they're not altogether dead even in France. In Germany, you'll be needing to look mostly outside the younger generation to find them, but they're certainly there. You may find them a waning majority, however.

@Alex N
Just two days ago yet another fellow German told me that "the USA deserve a little terror". Mind you, this guy also explained to me how he totally loved the US just a few years ago, but then realized how evil the West is.

When I thought about what I would post, initially I thought I would preface it with 'please don't take this judgmentally".

Nope.

If we can insist that the Muslims who are not Islamists stand up and be heard - at great risk to the well-being and life of their families - then I can take you to task.

And you can tell me to piss off anytime.

Confront these people. Give them the passenger lists of - say - the plane that hit the Pentagon - with so many children. Find photos. The stuff is out there.

Did Bernard Brown 'deserve' it?

There is not one American on this board who will not willingly acknowledge that civilians die in war.

There is also not one American on this board that thinks civilians 'deserve' it.

You are going to get the "What about Hamburg and Dresden" argument.

Be prepared ahead of time. The next time someone tells you that Americans 'deserve' some terrorism, be prepared w/the names and ages of all those little boys on flight 77 whose parents will never see them again.

And when they- and they will - challenge you - about the children killed as policy of the U.S. - do not fall into the moral equivalnce argument of collateral damage. There is not U.S. Policy of killing children - unlike the Islamofascists who use them as suicide bombers.

This is not to give you any hope that you will change any minds. That is doubtful.

Here is the point.

You must not back down. You must confront and you must be prepared to confront. You must speak out, you must stand your ground.

To say that the 'left', the 'enemy', whatever, will not be persuaded by argument so there is not point arguing misses the point.

Fight.

Pamela,

I've been thinking about the Dresden and Hamburg argument and I think it's really quite simple. If ordinary Americans deserve terror for the admittedly awful things that the US government has done, then to stay consistent in their reasoning, these people had better be arguing that the firebombing of German cities during WWII was justified in light of the cold-blooded murder of millions by their government. Somehow I think they sing a different song when it comes to that case.

Angelika Claussen and her friends don't really hate America. It's just that they are feeling frustrated that they are not (yet) allowed to do a TV special about how Jews make their Passover matzoh with the blood of Christian children. And so they lash out in other directions. /sarcasm

It's depressing how today's left increasingly resembles yesterday's fascists. But it's not surprising.

Helian:
The Orwellian aspect of the clip resides in the passivity of the national news senders in allowing and tacitly assisting the dissemination of this crap. Even newspeak though in its mature form divulged a consistent and rational worldview, whereas half of what passes as information/news resides in the shadows of half-truths and partially-told stories and as such perpetuates and recreates itself in the faulty faculty of men's imaginations and memory. Such as the guy above who posted about some truther's evidence on the melting point of reinforced steel girders from 2002; he doesnt know if its true or why it has been trotted out again in the 'press', but he remembers it and attaches some significance to it or enough to bring the matter to the table.

One might characterize the developments on both sides of the Atlantic as a willful degeneration into a new form of Romanticism that is incompatible with the middle-class legal and social fundaments the Americans instituted in the Revolution and the Germany, legally and socially, created at the end of the 19th century. There is no logical form or systematic empistemological tradition sacred enough to be discarded on a whim for ratings or to please the manager's or viewers' preconcpetions or titiliations. It is a joyful descent into illogical barbarity and as such reminds me more of Goethe or King Lear than Orwell: "O diese Zeit hat fuerchterliche Zeichen: Das Niedre schwillt, das Hohe senkt sich nieder".

Oh Christ - somebody get 'bob' a beer.

@storm72
Pamela,

I've been thinking about the Dresden and Hamburg argument

Why are you giving this any thought? Oh, ok, there is an argument out there to be confronted (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt).

Start a lebensraum war, get bombed back into the stone age.

then to stay consistent in their reasoning, these people had better be arguing that the firebombing of German cities during WWII was justified

Don't go there. You are right in terms of rhetorical argument. In university, your debate team would win hands down.

Too bad this isn't a debate team.

Lose the 'moral equivalence' shroud. Use the 'let 'em dig deeper' tactic. This can take as outrageous a form as you like - justifying atrocities against America down to justifying the slaughter of children - photos help. I have photos of the firebombing of Dresden that I present along side photos of concentration camps. Usually this results in a change of subject. I also keep hard copy of the inverview Brett Stephens had with the German diplomat from hell. Confront. Confront. Confront.

Understand that you will never, 'on site' win an argument. You will not change one mind. And if you give it some thought, why would you want such a weak mind in your corner to begin with? But there is an imperative - moral - that this not be allowed to go unchallenged.

And over time, the people you confront will begin to get the idea that they are not safe in their conformist cocoon. That's really what it is. Just a sense of the hive where they can belong.

Challenge the hive.

I normally just a lurker here and don't post, but the reference to Orwell brings to mind one of my favorite quotes which seems to fit perfectly with this topic.

"The majority of pacifists either belong to obscure religious sects or are simply
humanitarians who object to taking life and prefer not to follow their thoughts
beyond that point. But there is a minority of intellectual pacifists, whose real
though unacknowledged motive appears to be hatred of western democracy and admiration
for totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side
is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of the younger
intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial
disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States."

George Orwell 1945

It's amazing how some things never change.

"Fight." - Pamela

Well, Pamela. How do you think I even get into those discussions I described above? Again and again. How do you think I even found this website here? How do you think I did NOT get indoctrinated by our media? I do "fight". Or at least, I hope I do something that would qualify as such. And if anyone in this country thinks he is my best friend, when he then finds that he's not capable to accept or tolerate my views, then I'm the guy who says go fuck yourself if you cannot accept free opinions of free people. And it's not just educated discussions. I got everything, I got the whole program. "Well, why do you have the burning WTC as a desktop background?" "Cause I like how the Americans got it in the ass that day." "OK, you are sick bastard, you know that?" I've seen them all.
Don't worry about me not fighting. Worry about that my fight is pointless. Because that might very well be the real issue to worry about.

I understand that your aim was probably to encourage me. But don't worry about that. What is needed is not encouragement for myself, but a complete change of mind, like, in my whole damn country. The thing where I lack in is coming up with an idea how in the world this could ever happen. And you know, maybe in the end Churchill simply got it right.
I think I do fight. But it might be that I just as well fought windmills. And might do a lot better by simply moving over to your country in some 10-20 years from now. Sounds a hell of a lot easier than changing the mind of some 80 million people.

Fighting means that there is also the possiblity that you get defeated. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a fight.

Good Night,
Alex

Don't worry about me not fighting. Worry about that my fight is pointless.

That's a very good point. When you live in a country where most people surrounding you are affected by various levels of moonbattery and you don't see any improvement, you do start wondering about what the point of the fight might be (it doesn't mean giving up).

There are plenty of Americans affected by the same moonbattery, but compared to Germany this is...heaven... There are still plenty sane Americans, who might not appreciate Bush but surely aren't BDS'ers either. I found this extremely, *extremely* refreshing after the German experience. As far as I am concerned, and without trying to throw big ideas around, I consider Western Europe almost lost. I know that some sane Europeans wouldn't agree with this view, and who knows, I might be wrong. So far though I don't think I am.

@Alex N.
Don't worry about me not fighting. Worry about that my fight is pointless. Because that might very well be the real issue to worry about.

Alex, I know you fight. I understand your dispair. I sometimes think Europe is irretrievably lost.

You can decide for yourself if I'm right or wrong, but I don't fight to change minds. I fight to kill the enemy. sometimes the enemy is an idea. Here is a site w/photos of 9/11 victims sorted by age. There are three photos of children under 5 years. I carry hardcopy versions around with me sometimes. When I get to the 'Amis getting it in the ass' type argument, I whip out a pic.

Did Christine Hanson deserve it?

She was 2 years old.

It never changes this kind of mind's world view - because that is an emotional/psych need so profound that giving it up would cause a breakdown. But it does cause shame. And it does diminish the frequency of that particular nonsense.

The fight is not pointless. It is hard. No, we will not be defeated. We may be killed, but that's not defeat. Defeat is a burka.

Alex, you guys don't have 10-20 years. If you can't stay and continue to fight, start packing.


@WDIK - you said..
There are plenty of Americans affected by the same moonbattery, but compared to Germany this is...heaven...

I concur completely. I recently moved back to the USA after nine years in Germany.
I am like Bruce Bawer - in most respects ;) - an American liberal who changed
political sides after experiencing 9/11 in Europe.

you are right, plenty of kooks here - cindy sheehan, anyone?
but you have Dennis Miller and Rush giving it to them...
didn't see that over there AT ALL.

I find the political revisionism going on in Germany quite alarming..
a view becoming much more prevalent is that "we Germans were also victims of WWII" and "Dresden was a war crime". OTOH the view that "The AMIS deserved 9/11" is also becoming more prevalent.

Historical irony, anyone?

I wish you luck WDIK. I am SOOOOO glad to be back, problems notwithstanding...

Hi amiexpat

First: There is a lot of injustice in the German media coverage about America. This is why we all read this blog.
Second: I admit that I am not as annoyed as most of the commenters here by Anti-Americanism, although I know it is somewhat common in Germany and it is not right.
Third: As long as nobody can prove that I am in fact anti-American, I reserve the right to be pissed off by what I perceive as being anti-German injustice.

Having said that I think that the view that "Dresden was a war crime" becomes prevalent in Germany because it is the truth.

Bartolo,

I have no opinion about whether you are or are not anti-American (unlike a now-banned poster whose nic was 'Amihasser'). But even if you are, it would have no bearing on your objections to anti-German injustice.

I'm going to string together some sentences from your post, amiexpat's and an upthread one of mine.

"Dresden was a war crime" becomes prevalent in Germany because it is the truth.

a view becoming much more prevalent is that "we Germans were also victims of WWII" and "Dresden was a war crime". OTOH the view that "The AMIS deserved 9/11" is also becoming more prevalent.

In the pathology of the left, the only collective that has moral authority is the collective of the victim.

See it? In the German world-view described here, the perpetrators of the bloodiest era in human history are transformed into victims of the very event they caused.

Now don't you find it odd that there is comparatively little German vitriol directed to Russia? Or to the UK?

Anti-Americanism has reached the level of a pathology. One is not 'annoyed' at a pathology that has the potential to become complicit with another totalitarian global threat - or in the case of the German bomb plot just foiled, apparently already has.


@Bartolo: Anti-German injustice? The Germans do themselves the worst injustice through their misinformation campaign which keeps almost everyone submissive and stupid. And as far as Dresden is concerned, your "truth" is most certainly not my truth. War is war. Innocent people get killed. That's one of the reasons war is so ugly. And who started that "total war" business, anyway? The prevalant thought of the day was that populations supported the war effort and were therefore legitimate targets. Don't try to make it a war crime after the fact based on our _present-day_ understanding of proportionality and military usefulness.

@WDIK, Amiexpat, Pamela: I've fought the good fight long enough. 26 years to be exact, and it has been like tilting at windmills. Yes, there are exceptions (thank you, Mir, for being you...) but Germans by and large beg to be deceived, love their Socialism, and in their heart of hearts they mindlessly hate America for even existing, because the Sheep have been programmed by the system to think that way. This place is a lost cause... no number of blogs, no number of individual efforts can make any headway here. My decision has already been made: When this school year is over, I'm packing it in, and never coming back. I would leave tomorrow if I could. I want to live somewhere where I'm a citizen again, and not an Untertan.
Especially in the last few years, I have really learned to hate this place, and hate is not a nice emotion. Very un-Christian. Ergo, I also don't like the negative effect it is having on me -- one more reason I need to go.

@scout
Especially in the last few years,

Scout, a quick question - would you place this after 9/11 or after the fall of the Berlin Wall (or neither of that's a false choice)?

I've not got a good grasp of how reunification affected German self-concept, but I think in some ways it has not been good.

Hi Pamela,

As far as I understand, you're telling me two things:
1. Today's anti-Americanism is a serious illness, that might prevent the non-American world from recognizing its mortal enemy, Islamism. One proof that it is highly irrational is that the German hate is not directed towards the UK and Russia (I assume in their respective roles as Iraq invader / menacing militaristic autocracy, not WWII victors).
2. Germans are victimizing themselves, thus trying to gain a morally high position.

To the first point I want to say:
I too think that many people are obsessed with America (and America only) and are glad to blow its existing flaws and mistakes way out of proportion (or even invent new ones). I hope I am not one of those. However I do not believe in the pitch-dark Eurabia scenarios some guests here seem to believe inevitable. And sorry to say that: in my eyes, America's policy of the recent years really has not done much to diminish the global threat you are talking about, on the contrary.

As for the second point:
There is a difference between redefining Germans as victims of the war and denouncing double standards. I have been taught in school that the bombing of Rotterdam (around 900 civilians died) was a war crime. In Wikipedia it is (rightly so) called a terror bombing. (if you answer, please do not tell me that the Netherlands were a neutral country invaded by Germany, I know that too, but this is not what makes the bombing a war crime)
The effect of the Dresden bombing was the same on a quite larger scale, but amieexpat seems to find it ludicrous to even think that the label "war crime" could be justified for it. In my opinion Germany has to go a long way, before what you call "self-victimization" becomes actually alarming. And many people don't do it to gain moral superiority but because they feel (like I as you will certainly deduce) treated unfairly.
By the way, I do believe, that every person under the age of may be 15 who died in Dresden that night was indeed a victim and not a perpetrator of the bloodiest ... you know.

@ Bartolo

>> However I do not believe in the pitch-dark Eurabia scenarios some guests here seem to believe inevitable.

Why don't you believe that? I always like to hear some reasons to be more optimistic.

@ Scout

If you're serious about leaving, do it. Use the time until then to intensively inform yourself about your destination (whatever it may be). But I guess you didn't need that advise anyway.

@Pamela: IMHO, it started getting worse in the late 90's... still in the Clinton years. I think Germany had a bit of a national shock with the reunification, was left alone a little too long, and they simply returned to their feudal roots in earnest. The so-called sympathy after 9/11 was exactly that; so-called. It wasn't genuine, so I can't even call it an aberration. However, my personal turning point came when I retired from the AF but stayed in country. Let me assure you, living in Germany as a military member, and living in Germany as a regular resident... well, it's like living in two different countries. I agree with a lot of other commentators who have noted that anti-Americanism was always there; it was simply suppressed somewhat during the Cold War for the purposes of harmony in the Alliance. The end of the Cold War (commensurate with reunification) took the lid off. Schroeder promoted ami-bashing to the new Volkssport.
@Mir: Thanks. I am doing it. I am crossing the Rubicon and burning boats even as I write. My destination is Florida, where I already have a house (and residency) where I normally spend school holidays to stock up on Life Optimism since that is in such short supply here. As I said, I would leave tomorrow if I could, but I promised to teach until the end of the year, and my word is still worth something. Pacta sunt servanda.
@Bartolo: It wasn't Amiexpat, it was me. And it is ludicrous. After 26 years of flying fighters, sometimes with absolutely ridiculous Rules of Engagement, commanding such forces, staff/ air war college, etc., I claim to have more than a layman's understanding of the Law of War, its history, application, etc. As I said, it is dishonest to apply today's military standards, with today's knowledge, historical perspective, and German morals tempered by 50 years of Socialist-Pacifist indoctrination on events that took place in the Fog of War with imperfect information and according to the standards of that time (populations are targets). For me, it's part of the typical German, "See, we aren't so bad after all, since you are much worse." When Germans have a problem, instead of spending energy to solve it, they would rather spend much more energy lecturing themselves and anyone who will listen why everyone else is much worse off, whether it is true or not.

Germans have been nothing but trouble for as long as there has been a Germany. Anything they say or do should be suspect.

@Scout

"German morals tempered by 50 years of Socialist-Pacifist indoctrination"

I do not expect an American fighter pilot to think about Dresden the same way I do, but frankly, your point of view might not be exactly impartial, too.

@Mir
Probably you'll find my reasons blue-eyed:
I have the feeling that currently islamic terrorism is extremely fashionable (both in the media and with young moslems around the globe), due to the enourmous "reputation" of al Qaida after 9/11, an effect that I hope soon will wear off (like the RAF-terror finally wore off in Germany).

Then, every Muslim I spoke with yet (I work with both a Kurd and an Iranian, sometimes talk to Turkish Döner vendors :)) was a perfectly reasonable person, trying to strive in their job and get along with everybody not worrying about how to best enforce sharia law on me. I do not see why this should necessarily change when there are larger numbers of them in Europe.

The Islamism-related thing that disturbs me most at the moment is a maniac like Ahmadinejad as head of state in Iran, although I think his position in Iran is not especially strong, and I do not see anything "Eurabian" coming from there.

Bartolo
(I assume in their respective roles as Iraq invader / menacing militaristic autocracy, not WWII victors).

Both, actually. The Russians did not treat you well vis a vis WWII, especially. But I note you did not anser my question. Why the comparitively little German vitriol towards Russia & the UK?

However I do not believe in the pitch-dark Eurabia scenarios some guests here seem to believe inevitable.

Could you clarify please? What exactly do you believe? That there is no threat, the threat is exxagerated? If you do believe there is some level of threat, how do you think it should be addressed.

And sorry to say that: in my eyes, America's policy of the recent years really has not done much to diminish the global threat you are talking about, on the contrary.

Fair enough as far as it goes, but what would you have done differently?

And many people don't do it to gain moral superiority but because they feel (like I as you will certainly deduce) treated unfairly.
By the way, I do believe, that every person under the age of may be 15 who died in Dresden that night was indeed a victim and not a perpetrator of the bloodiest ... you know.

Treated unfairly how? By whom, by what? The only English word I can think of to describe a perpetrator who is defeated by his own tactics claiming to be a victim treated 'unfairly' is 'fantacist'. Yes, I spelled that correctly - NOT Fanatic but Fantasy.


What double standard Bartolo? The Blitz began in the fall of 1940 and continued for 8 mos. The German bombers that went in dropped incendicaries FIRST to act as markers for the following crews. Over 40,000 killed, over 1 million homeless. Was the Blitz a war crime?

How's this for a double standard? Gunter Grass, that tiresome old whore, moaning about living in subservience to America in West Germany - when all he had to do to escape such horrors was move to East Germany. 'Annoyed' is what I become when I hear lectures about American's 'moral failings' and descent into facism from somebody who actually fought for THE FACIST bastard - and lied about it for 50 years.

You can call the people who suffered in the fire bombing of Dresden 'victims' if it makes you feel better - but you had better have a very steady moral compass when it's time to decide just who and what ultimately victimized them.

Thanks Scout - fascinating perspective. Where in Florida? My folks used to live in Ocala and we all used to vacation in Panama City Beach.


@Bartolo: Well, we are ALL products of our environment in one way or another. Yours truly included. You say you don't expect me to think the same way, and that is completely fair and accurate. I freely admit that I don't think like the typical German, and that pleases me mightily. Similarly, I have discovered that most Germans cannot possibly understand me or the majority of Americans for that matter. We're products of our environment. Germans can't possibly understand concepts like limited government, individual freedoms, individual responsibility, or ruling from the bottom up and not the other way around, as they have had no exposure to these concepts; not historically, and not now. Let's just say I have a completely different Staatsauffassung... and I've gathered a lifetime of information from a variety of sources, not just state-controlled media or Wikipedia ;-).
Hier die Tagesthemen. Warten Sie, bitte. Ihre Meinung wird gleich zugeteilt.

@Pamela: Thanks for listening. Panhandle. About halfway between Pensacola Naval Air Station and Eglin AFB. For me, jet noise is still the Sound of Freedom. ;-)

@Scout

My Aunt Eve & Ungle Guy were stationed at Eglin for a while shortly after the war. He and my dad used to steal planes via some duplicitous bureaucratic paperwork, fly to Puerto Rico and buy rum!

@ Bartolo

>> Probably you'll find my reasons blue-eyed

Indeed.

>> I have the feeling that currently islamic terrorism is extremely fashionable [...] an effect that I hope soon will wear off (like the RAF-terror finally wore off in Germany).

Unlikely as long as islamic countries use their oil money to finance and support terror - and not only get away with it, but are being encouraged by our weakness and cheered by the left-wing mainstream.

>> Then, every Muslim I spoke with yet (I work with both a Kurd and an Iranian, sometimes talk to Turkish Döner vendors :)) was a perfectly reasonable person

I believe that. Of course not every Muslim is a terrorist, but unfortunately nearly every terrorist act has been perpetrated by Muslims. By the way: Have you asked your friends about their opinion about America or Israel?

>> The Islamism-related thing that disturbs me most at the moment is a maniac like Ahmadinejad as head of state in Iran, although I think his position in Iran is not especially strong, and I do not see anything "Eurabian" coming from there.

I'm glad you recognize the threat. If we can believe polls that claim the majority of Germans sees the US as the biggest threat to world peace, then you are wiser than most. As far as the road to Eurabia is concerned: Iran is part of it. The strategy to force Europe into Appeasement consists mainly of two threats: Terrorism and cutting off oil supplies. Fear and weakness lead our leaders to their unwise decisions (not to critize Islam, etc.)

@ Bartolo
By the way, I do believe, that every person under the age of may be 15 who died in Dresden that night was indeed a victim and not a perpetrator of the bloodiest ... you know.

…….I do not expect an American fighter pilot to think about Dresden the same way I do, but frankly, your point of view might not be exactly impartial, too.

I am an American whose draft board granted me Conscientious Objector status during the Vietnam War. My perspective on Dresden is not particularly different from the “fighter pilot.” (You might add, “you changed your mind, apparently.” My short reply would be, “Yes, I did change my mind. Genocide in Cambodia did it.” )

Had there been any tendency on the Germans in the latter stages of WW2 to peacefully surrender, in contrast to the block-by-block fight to the death in the streets of Berlin, the “war crimes” accusation in Dresden might be considered. Had there been any indication that the German civilian population actively resisted the carting off of the Jewish population to the camps, instead of actively supporting or acquiescing in same, the “war crimes” accusation in Dresden might be considered. Had the Germans not created death camps, the “war crimes” accusation in Dresden might be considered. Had there been any indication that the German population actively resisted Hitler’s genocidal war, instead of lining up to say “Jawohl, mein Fuehrer”; the “war crimes” accusation in Dresden might be considered. Had Hitler not impressed children under the age of 15 into the war effort, the “war crimes” accusation in Dresden might be considered. Others have already mentioned the bombings in England.

BTW, who was the first to denounce the bombing of Dresden? Doktor Goebbels! Et tu, Bartolo?

BTW, my brother-in-law’s stepfather, a relationship that began when my brother-in-law was a child in Germany, was an engineer who worked on the R+D for the Messerschmitt jet fighter. After WW2, the stepfather and his family came to the US. In his later years the stepfather wrote an unpublished autobiography, which I read some years ago.In his autobiography, A MESSERSCHMITT'S DESIGNER EXPRESSED ANGER AT THE AMERICAN BOMBING OF HIS HOMELAND. Is that chutzpah or is that not chutzpah? (Bartolo: do you understand what “chutzpah” means? It is a word often used in Ami English. Check out where it came from.) To the stepfather’s credit, he went on to say that, well the Germans did bomb too. Et tu, Bartolo?

Basically, Amis get rather pissed off when “war crimes” accusations are brought against us for WW2. We didn’t start the war. We finished off the SOB’s who started it. You don’t like that, then line up with Tojo or the National Socialists who started WW2. I repeat, who was the first to denounce the bombing of Dresden?

"Others have already mentioned the bombings in England."

Aside from that, little do people talk about the air war over Russia. There was indeed an air war, and in the beginning it was pretty one-sided. The Luftwaffe pretty much wiped out the VVS in the opening days of the war on the ground, and if any of the inferior Russian bi-planes made it into the air, they were destroyed. It was only until later into the war that the VVS was able to mount a meaningfull number of fighters, and more modern ones - which they build beyond the Ural, out of range - to oppose the Luftwaffe. Until then, the Luftwaffe pretty much enjoyed air superiority or even supremacy in the skies over Russia. How do people think Russia's cities got flatened? It was not just artillery fire, mind you.

heh. Gotta love Texas.

which they build beyond the Ural,

That the Russians managed to transplant so much of their manufacturing over the Urals is one of the great untold stories of the war. I know that it happened but I've never seen anything written about it specifically. If anyone can refer some reading to me, I'd appreciate it.

Madame Claussen should have a serious talk with Osama and let him how that 9/11 was an unfortunate aviation accident and not a terror attack, as Osama deludedly proclaims.

Davids Medienkritik, the Rush Limbaugh of the Euro set.

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