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Dear A.G.

Well, here I am in the holy city of Alexandria Virginia and I didn't need to spend 7 years abroad to hear this crap. Where have you been?

I know you're tired. Get over it. Get mad. Here is some ammo.

A Genealogy of Anti-Americanism

And this should be fun.

Germany would seem to be one of the last places to find the government trying to intimidate its journalists these days. News of secret C.I.A. flights that whisked prisoners through the Continent to places where torture is allowed has horrified many Europeans in recent years. The German courts have been in the forefront of condemning “extraordinary rendition” — the practice of loading terrorism suspects onto planes and secretly flying them to Afghanistan or Syria or other particularly dangerous spots for anyone behind bars.

A German court even issued a warrant in January for the arrest of 13 people said to be part of a Central Intelligence Agency “abduction team” involved in the kidnapping and jailing of a German citizen in 2003. Khaled el-Masri, a German of Lebanese descent, was seized in Macedonia and flown to Afghanistan where he was brutally interrogated for five months before being released without charges ever being filed.

Yet despite such widespread concern, the government is investigating at least 17 German journalists from top publications, like Der Spiegel and Die Welt, for their articles about a parliamentary committee investigating these renditions. World news media organizations, including the Committee to Protect Journalists, have rightly demanded an end to what amounts to political intimidation by the German authorities in these cases.

Harassing Germany’s Media

Oh, and here's something else you can have fun with.

Protest against "Islamisation" banned

The group hopes to bring thousands out onto the streets of the Belgian capital on 11 September. It is organising other protests to take place simultaneously around the world, notably in the United States, Canada and Australia.

But the mayor's spokesman Nicolas Dassonville said: "The danger to public order is too high," to allow the Brussels protest to go ahead.

"The sizeable foreign community living in the area could react to the action," he added.

Stop being defensive, A.G. Go medievieal on their asses. Wear the fucking flag on your head like a hijab and tell them you're doing it out of the modesty prescribed by Islam. Laugh when they choke.

DO NOT STAND DOWN.

Let me know when you get home.

Reporters Without Borders publishes its third annual worldwide index of press freedom:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715

It ranks evil oppressive Germany much higher (#11) than the US (#22).

But who cares about journalists or the truth, when reality has such an anti-American bias.

Tropby

Ah, but of course it does
and the arrest of several journalists during anti-Bush demonstrations kept the United States (22nd) away from the top of the list.

Doesn't say who they are, why they were arrested - no info at all - just that they were at (covering, I assume) an 'anti-Bush' demo. Can't have that, no siree.

I'm supposed to take seriously an opinion poll that ranks the press in France - where a weekly mag spiked a story about Cecelia Sarkozy not voting - higher than the U.S.? Please.

Oh, wait. That's self-censorship. That's ok then.

This is the country that passed a law

which makes it illegal for non-accredited journalists to film or broadcast acts of violence

Oh, wait, that's non-accredited journalists, so that's ok too.

feh.

More from France:

i got all the photos and videos i took yesterday on my camphone deleted by a policeman who told me he would arrest if he ever saw me doing again. I don't know if he had the right to erase the photos, i should see about that.

@ Tropby

Nice, a link back from 2004.

... the arrest of several journalists during anti-Bush demonstrations kept the United States (22nd) away from the top of the list.

Now THAT's evil. How dare they. Surely journalists (especially anti-Bush ones) are above the law?! Without mentioning of the concrete events, the resulting numbers are nonsense anywyay.

Why not have a look at Freedomhouse's Freedom of the Press 2007 Survey Release, which offers a detailed analysis for every nation? Oh right, it doesn't fit your worldview:

Germany 16 points, USA 16 points, tied on overall rank 16 (although that should better be called rank 7).

@ Pamela

OK, you were faster. But English being your first language is a clear advantage. :-)

@ tropby,

First: You seem to be saying that press freedom and anti-Americanism are somehow mutually exclusive.

I strongly disagree.

Every day we see media in free societies feeding news consumers bias, half-truths and misinformation. The fact that a society is free does not prevent that. It may lessen it in that there are competitor outlets and watchdogs, but it is quite obvious that many in media feed on the spectacular and negative in society.

Second: How did the organization you cite come up with its rankings for free media? Like so many other rankings scales (for example of universities) I view this particular system with a high degree of skepticism. Who is making the judgments? What are they basing this on? Are they really taking the most important factors into account? For example: Germany does not have as vibrant a talk radio or blog scene as the United States. So how is Germany "more free" in terms of media than the United States? This sounds highly arbitrary and political to me. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the "Journalists Without Borders" were Europeans and other foreigners with an axe to grind against the USA.

A.G., allow me to recommend a website for you to refer your questioners to, if they are actually interested in finding out the facts about America. I realize for some people, anti-Americanism is simply about proving oneself superior to the lame-brain, fat, aggressive Americans.


http://usaerklaert.wordpress.com/

I haven't read that report (I don't care much about Reporters Without...Whatever...), but if Pamela says that France scores higher than the US, that report is just another joke.

Absolutely no intelligent human being who still ticks half-way right can even begin to compare the American media landscape media with the German (or EU) one. There is absolutely no comparison, whatsoever. I use bold letters because that's the only way to express the huge difference between the amazing diversity one finds in the American media and the much, much more narrow media variety in Germany.

This report is intended for people like tropby, fuchur & Co. all over the world. Those are the people who will fall for it, usually because they want to believe it. They pile on everything that attempts to demean America, because tearing America down is part of their ideological DNA. They are not even worth armchair psychoanalyzing. Pathetic is pathetic, no matter how you look at it.

The German party SPD ( = Gerhard Schroeders Labour Party) owns a big chunk of the German print media that's worth four billion. The party official in charge of that once said, they wouldn't need to wholly own them, 40 to 60 per cent would be sufficient to rule them. Is something like that permitted in the U.S.? I actually haven't heard this from any other country (except Russia, etc).

commonsense
Is something like that permitted in the U.S.?

It would be perfectly legal for a political party to operate a media outlet here in the U.S. I believe there is some socialst 'workers' party that has a rag of sorts.

What we call 'barriers to entry' in media markets are low on the regulatory side - you just need some $$$.

Mir
But English being your first language is a clear advantage

Apparently not, since the piece of crap Tropby posted is from 2004 and I completely missed it.

sheesh.

@Pamela,
Tropby, Fuckur and sometimes Joerg are people who evidently don't like researching a topic. To me they seem to be the epitomy of lazyness that has crept into the German mindset. They would rather read a headline in the MSM, see their views validated and claim to be the experts on the subjects.
Germany will not stop until 90% of business is in Government hands (Verstaatlichung) just look at the recent surveys about the coming leftism. Then, as now the Government will continue to bash theUSA until we tell them officially that they are right and ask them politely to take over leading our country (sarc)
Most Germans would love to se their country have robots take over all hard jobs, have the Humans get paid an excellent wage for being superior and controlling the robots, or foreigners, (Grundeinkommen)at least 300 days vacation and astamp proclaiming themselves to be the superior beings.
As I have said before, Germans and most Euros have become too lazy to breed even though they know that it will lead to ruining their Social System.

"First: You seem to be saying that press freedom and anti-Americanism are somehow mutually exclusive"

Oh no, I suppose I was unclear.

A poster started preaching about Germany oppressing the Media. I did a google, and the first link was this rating. I remembered a saying on glass houses and stones, smiled, and posted it.

I see no link between press freedom and anti-American (or anti-German) bias in the media.

I am no expert on US talk radio, but I am not impressed by the examples I listened to on satellite TV or the Internet. There are also some problems with a limited number of companies (Clear Channel and one competitor IIRC) dominating radio channels.

German blogs seem to be doing fine, but I have no hard data on this.

German electronic media face stiff competition from foreign media, as foreign language skills are improving. I watched AFN as a kid, BBC and CNN for more than two decades, MSNBC and Fox when they were available via satellite. Watching the news presented by Melissa Theuriau is balsam for the eyes and helps to maintain some French language skills.

This limits the ability of the German media to suppress/manipulate/spin the news.

Yes, there are foreign cable channels in the US, but Americans tend to be less interested in foreign language skills as they already speak the Lingua Franca and there are some parochial tendencies in the US. We Germans on the other hand, having lost the last wars, have to learn English (My command of said language is admittedly limited, but I am getting old.), creating competition for the local media. Competition tends to result in Freedom.

The media systems are different, but attacking only (!) the German one is intellectually dishonest.

The original poster excused questionable activities (extra-ordinary rendition etc.) with an alleged German infringement on press freedom, which btw. will meet a harsh reaction from German courts (CARLORVHA NON LOCVTA CAVSA NON FINITA). This is just rubbish, sorry.

You're damn' right America has plenty of friends in Europe.

I'm one of them, and I opened a blog to fight anti-americanism in France. I have between 500-700 readers each day, many more pro-american than me (and it is difficult) :

http://leblogdrzz.over-blog.com

God bless America.

See this pro-american video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBPQQJFpmSE&eurl=

Tropby,
I ahve been following your rants on this blog for a while.
I suggest the following since it is needed.
Learn something about the US political system.
Our constitution only has (probably the most genius page ever devised) one page. We do have 27 amendments.
Freedom of the press is covered in the first one along with speech, expression etc.
Step back from yor personal view, whatever that is, try to look at BOTH sides of the coin, remember that their is a reaction to every action. If you are still not sure try the Ben Franklin method. Place a cross on a piece of paper on top write pro and con. On the bottom try to list as many arguments as possible for either side after doing some research. This at least will ensure a balance opinion.

@ tropby

"The media systems are different, but attacking only (!) the German one is intellectually dishonest."

We are not "attacking" the media "system" as much as we are serving as a watchdog for cases of anti-Americanism in German media. There are certainly problems in media around the world in every nation - neither David nor I would dispute that. You are certainly welcome to start a blog that compares all media worldwide if you so chose - just don't come on our site and accuse us of intellectual dishonesty because we specialize in German media. If you are going to call anyone who choses to focus on one country or language or area intellectually dishonest - you would have to apply the label to about 85% of all blogs. Essentially - your comments boil down to little more than the usual apologist bullshit. If you want to continue to apologize for and ignore the hate - be my guest - just don't expect me to join you.

@tropby
The original poster excused questionable activities (extra-ordinary rendition etc.) with an alleged German infringement on press freedom

I did no such thing. If you have a problem with the content that I posted and linked to, take it up with the editors of the New York Times who wrote the piece.

@tropby
The original poster excused questionable activities

It has occured to me that you are a lying sack of shit.

And stupid to boot as nothing in my post supports your allegation.

Get your sorry ass back here and defend the indefensible.

@ Pamela:

Personal insults and vulgar language are no arguments. Please rise above the Kindergarten level of debating ...

1) By linking the article and endorsing it ("And this should be fun."), You are supporting its line of thinking or at least willfully creating this impression.

2) Said article uses the classic "attack the messenger, not the message" approach.

- even the NY times, a former cheerleader of Iraq II, can no longer defend the illegal activities of the current US administration; they cannot directly attack the message of "extra-ordinary renditions & torture are bad".

- so it has to attack the messenger (Germany) on a totally unrelated issue (freedom of the press).

A classic maneuver to "defend the indefensible", and You supported this ridiculous smear attack. How primitive.

@ RayD:

My attempt to clear up the first misunderstanding seems to have resulted in a new one. MEA CVLPA, I suppose.

"The media systems are different, but attacking only (!) the German one is intellectually dishonest." was aimed at Pamela the foul-mouthed, not at You.

I have no problem with the basic premise of this blog, but I do have a problem with its definition of Anti-Americanism. There has been a tendency to subsume harsh but legitimate attacks on the Bush administration under Anti-Americanism. PaleoCons like Pournelle or magazines like The American Conservative are quite patriotic while blasting Bush, and rightly so.

This partisan stance dilutes Your message, and this is a shame, as there really is Anti-Americanism in the German media (as there is an Anti-German bias e.g in the US and UK media, btw.), and it should be spotlighted.

All INHO, of course. I am no Leftist (at least by European standards) and tended to be the guy who defended US actions in debates over here prior to Bush II.

"If you want to continue to apologize for and ignore the hate"

I am afraid that Your blog is in danger of being apologetic by re-defining Anti-Americanism to include most forms of criticism of the current administration. And I have seen quite a bit of hatred recently, mostly in the vicious comments of self-styled "patriots".

as there is an Anti-German bias e.g in the US and UK media, btw.

Since you choose to ignore / excuse examples of Anti-Americanism in our media, I'd like to see a link or two (preferably from the American MSM) of what you would call anti-German bias. That would make it clearer what in your opinion qualifies as anti-*something*.

I am no Leftist (at least by European standards)...

I can believe that. Anti-American sentiments aren't restricted to the left, as we both know. There is a broad audience for that, and even so-called conservative politicans here in Germany have played the instrument in the last years.

... and tended to be the guy who defended US actions in debates over here prior to Bush II.

Which only (if it were true, which I doubt) proves that you "feel" better with a Democratic president. But I'm glad that you defended President Clinton's call for regime change in Iraq and his warnings against the WMD threat.

@ tropby

"I am afraid that Your blog is in danger of being apologetic by re-defining Anti-Americanism to include most forms of criticism of the current administration."

OK. If that is the case - give me some specific recent examples of how we supposedly re-defined anti-Americanism as most forms of criticism of the current administration.

How amusing, this freedom of the press ranking. Sweden gets a #13 slot and the US gets #23. I guess the people publishing this bit of propoganda missed this from Sweden

***
The website of the Sweden Democrats (Sverigedemokraterna) reopened on Friday morning, after the far-right party removed drawings of the prophet Muhammad. The site had been taken down by its hosting company after requests from Sweden’s foreign ministry and security service, Säpo.

The hosting company, Levonline, says its block on the Sweden Democrats’ site and that of its newspaper SD-Kuriren remains in place. The party’s secretary, Björn Söder, says the site has been reopened by moving it to another server, although the pictures of Muhammad have been removed.

**

And perhaps they missed this:

**

On Friday, former Expressen reporter Niklas Svensson was convicted of data trespass and fined 40 days' wages, totalling 8,000 SEK for his involvement in the 'hacking scandal' that rocked Sweden in the run-up to last year's parliamentary election. However, despite early day conspiracy theories, there was no actual hacking involved.

Svensson was given the log-in details to the Socialdemocratic Party's intranet, Säpnet, by Liberal Party youth activist Per Jodenius who had obtained them from a Social Democratic Youth Party activist (who had revealed them because he thought it funny that someone used a stupid nickname both for username and password). Both youth activists were convicted for data trespass and fined.

A schoolboy prank that got out of hand, or the low point of Swedish political debate? Sweden's newspapers are divided," writes The Local. Anders R Olsson, an author and expert on freedom of expression, writing in trade journal Journalisten, calls the 'scandal' a catastrophe for journalism: "This confirms that the constitutionally embedded freedom of information isn't valid in the IT-society." Olsson ...concludes that Svensson was within his rights, as he didn't commit any crimes to obtain the log-in details for Säpnet.

**

And this:

**

Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet has said it intends to publish an advertisement for Maltese gambling company Expekt, despite a court ruling on Thursday authorising stiff penalties if it goes ahead. The Södermanland district court confirmed on Thursday the right of the Gaming Board to fine Aftonbladet SEK 150,000 (about EUR 16,000) for every foreign gambling advertisement published. The paper has three weeks to appeal, after which the Gaming Board will be able to start imposing the fines. Aftonbladet is far from being the only major media organisation to accept foreign gambling advertisements. They can now be seen on a wide variety of newspapers, television channels and websites. The Gaming Board calculates that Swedish media make around SEK 500bn (EUR 54bn) a year from the adverts. Under Swedish law, gambling companies are not breaking the law by advertising. The newspapers, TV companies and websites that publish the adverts are, however, breaking a law that prohibits them from promoting non-authorised gaming companies. The only authorised gambling companies are Svenska Spel and ATG, both big earners for the Swedish state, and certain lotteries linked to voluntary organisations. Media claim that the ad ban contravenes both the freedom of the press as guaranteed by the Swedish constitution and European Union rules.

**

Did I say this "report" was propoganda?

@ RayD and Pamela: Tropby is dumm as rock. But look at the positive side of this, you sharpen a knife by rubbing it against a rock.

@ RayD: A few examples, using only the main page:

"As with most of the German media - there is an obsessive and hostile over-focus on America and conservative viewpoints."

"Nonetheless - the German media will certainly find some way to drum up the usual charge: This is all Bush's fault."

"So what - other than the fact that it is politically profitable to bash the United States and Bush - could be driving the Social Democrat's sudden barrage of vocal criticism? "

Attacking conservative viewpoints or Bush II and his policies is not inherently anti-American. As Theodore Roosevelt said:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

@ Mir:

1)

"Which only (if it were true, which I doubt) proves that you "feel" better with a Democratic president."

While Clinton did great things to my stock port folio, I also defended Bush I and Reagan. I even tried to explain why Carter had only limited options during the hostage crisis ... As Thomas Jefferson said:

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

2)

"But I'm glad that you defended President Clinton's call for regime change in Iraq and his warnings against the WMD threat."

Defending does not mean to support every action, but to explain why it was taken, giving fair consideration to the circumstances etc. .

3)

Examples of anti-German bias:

I have watched the BBC for 20+ years: There was 1 (one!) positive report about Germany (about its prison system), but dozens of critical ones.

I closely watched all available US news channels after German re-unification; my cable provider only offered CNN and NBC or MSNBC at the time.

Both reported about the fiery death of a female immigrant and her children, blaming Neo-Nazis. Both failed to report the arrest of their Turkish husband and father, who had been caught on a surveillance tape while preparing Molotov-cocktails.

Both reported about an arson attack on a home for asylum seekers, again claiming a Neo-Nazi attack. Neither reported on the arrest of an Arab immigrant some time later: An African immigrant had rejected his romantic advances, so he set fire to her apartment ...

@ tropby

"Attacking conservative viewpoints or Bush II and his policies is not inherently anti-American."

You keep vaingloriously knocking over the same strawman over and over and over again. Allow me to reiterate: Neither David nor I have ever claimed that criticizing American policy or conservative viewpoints is inherently anti-American. On the contrary: We believe that constructive criticism is a good thing and part of a healthy relationship. Just read our mission statement.

What you seem to be saying, on the other hand, is that there is little - if any - excessive, biased, hypocritical or over-the-top criticism of conservatives, Bush or the United States as a whole in German media and politics. That is where we fundamentally disagree.

We at Medienkritik point out what we believe to be excessive, biased, hypocritical and over-the-top criticism coming from German media and political elites and put it on display for our readers to view and comment on. Does everyone have to agree with our point-of-view? Of course not. But are we attempting to deflect all criticism of Bush, conservatives, the USA, etc. as "anti-American"? Certainly not. To even suggest that - as you do - is utterly ridiculous if you have honestly followed this blog.

I don't care what you claim to have seen 17 years ago. If you want to back up your claim of anti-German bias in the American MSM, then provide at least one link from today. That shouldn't be hard, right?

I'll grant you that the British press seems to be vicious sometimes - at least when the target of their criticism is completely harmless. Anyway, the BBC is leftist mainstream, regularly anti-Bush and anti-American. I don't expect anything from their reporting and I have no interest in defending their so-called "reporting". Can't remember anything particular anti-German in it though. Again a link would be helpful. But we can focus on the American media, if you want.

@ tropby

And about the concealment of the origin of criminals? Our German media do that all the time. It's called political correctness and "anti-discrimination" and it's a plague (invoked by the left and most of the MSM) that has spread throughout the Western world, including the USA. In your case, their media probably only repeated what our own said.

@Tropby
Ah, there pops the Wiesel. The truth is that actually the american media is Anti-german not the other way around. Damned, silly us. Ray, please change this whole blog to the real subject. We have been elightened...

Let me guess: Whenever you have been in the states or met an american somewhere else the first thing they did was calling you a damned Nazi.

Funny, I never had that experience when being in the states nor did all the germans I know who have been there. We must all have been to a paralel universum...

Well, if you are so enraged about supposed anti-germanism in the US why don't you make a blog and show us all the examples that you can find every day. I am waiting patiently.

Since a lot of topics have been covered by many people, I will not address my comments to particular people (which may be a good idea to follow more generally so as to avoid so much of the hurtful, unnecessary and irrelevant character smears that appear in these comments).

1)I agree with the person whoI no longer believes any pronunciamento of a NGO-- so many of them have shown themselves to be biased, even more biased than governments, even more biased than MSM. To rate numerically the press in any half-way decent democracy is silly in any case.

It is clear that the Russian Press is not free by any standard compared to either the German or American press---that is a meaningful statement. And to say the US press is not free, given the history of Watergate, the continual unpunished publication of leaked documents by WAPO and the NYT, and so on, is patently ridiculous. No numerical scales are needed for such distinctions.

The US press today is on the one hand, overwhelmingly liberal-progressive. It is almost uniformly biased which is a form of non-freedom. All media are biased, so it is the public's access to a variety of biased views, all sides, which determines how much freedom there is. And in this regard, we have the coming of the internet to be thankful for.

2)To complain about American anti-Germanism in the press is unfair. Europeans forget they belong to relatively small countries and small language populations ---relative to the U.S. and English. If a German speaks only his native tongue and reads mainly about German affairs, he is provincial. Much less so is the American who reads only English and perhaps is interested mainly in American affairs. the US is a continent-large, it is the global power.

Thus, the bottom line is that American care much less about what goes on in Germany than vice versa for good reason. And the one thing that still sticks in every American mind however uneducated that mind may be, when you mention Germany, is, like it or not, its Nazi past. So the emphasis on neo-nazi involvement in a murder (mentioned earlier) catches interest whereas yet another Moslem honor killing does not. It has nothing to do with anti-German feeling in the U.S. In my experience, there is none.

@Sagredo: you said
It has nothing to do with anti-German feeling in the U.S. In my experience, there is none.

I would not say there is NONE, but there is very little. I am an American in my mid 40s who just returned from nine years in Germany.
most people my age (in America) view World War II as ancient history.
There is a saying - In America 100 years is a long time and in Europe 100 miles is a long distance.
There is much truth in that.

Many Germans LOVE vacationing in the USA. I have often heard how friendly (albeit superficial) we are. I have yet to hear of someone being treated rudely because they are German.

Perhaps it happens, but the level of politeness in the USA is higher than in Germany. A friend of mine is from Iran but lives in Germany.
He has been to the USA twice in recent years. When he told people in the USA where he was from he got no 'bloede Sprueche' about Iran.
He is crazy about the States and wants to move here.

the USA press is overwhelmingly liberal progressive, like you say, but there
ARE alternatives: Rush Limbaugh, NY Post, Wash times, FOX news.

there are few if any alternatives in the German press. even 'die Welt" and
FOCUS have become USA bashers.. not as bad as Spiegel, but still...

@Sagredo
I certainly agree that there's not much anti-Germanism in the US. As you said - Germany is just too small for that. However, there is a steady and considerable level of general anti-Europeanism.


@amiexpat
the level of politeness in the USA is higher than in Germany

Atlanticreview recently had an interesting post on that
http://atlanticreview.org/archives/764-Frustrated-by-Anti-Americanism,-US-Exchange-Students-Try-to-Change-German-Attitudes.html#c9437

I think that at the root of this, we're dealing with cultural differences here: the perceptions of "politeness" are just different in Germany and the US.

It reminds me of what Asserante said in his great book "Manieren" (my translation):

At home, I had been instructed that certain subjects were forbidden in European conversation. (...) My surprise could not have been more pleasant: (...) People unabashedly talked about anything (...)
I came to believing that this rule with the forbidden subjects in conversation was hopelessly out of date - until I came to America (...). In the USA, let everyone be warned to issue a sharp, opinionated statement; assuredly, someone at the table will be thoroughly shocked.

It seems to me that "conflict" is much more accepted in German discourse than in the Anglo-Saxon world. In the US, it's imperative to avoid any topic that might embarrass the guest or make him feel uncomfortable. In Germany, this kind of behavior is often misunderstood as being "superficial". Conflict is not necessarily seen as bad, since it provides for an interesting discussion.

@Fuchur
" there is a steady and considerable level of general anti-Europeanism."
My experience has been that this began as a reaction to Anti-Americanism. In fact, ordinary Americans kept their 'colonial' respect for their motherlands far longer than it was healthy--they believed in German, French, English,...high opinions of themselves. Writers since the early nineteenth century, for example, were fighting for recognition of American literature. And today, advertisers use the English accent, to imply certain types of superiority--a practice which particularly despise considering the stupididly biased English views of America (I do not think German antiAmericanism can competer with that of the BBC).

As for table manners, the adage is to avoid religion and politics. It seems to me that if you want to discuss such incendiary issues you should not do it to people who are your guests, who are forced to sit the evening with you, who expect a pleasant evening, a good meal, and politeness. I think you Germans should follow our rule.

@ fuchue

However, there is a steady and considerable level of general anti-Europeanism.

It's dishonest to call people anti-European just because they disagree with European politics. Just like no one (myself included) would per se call arguable differerences with US politics anti-American. Therefore, a link from the American MSM would be helpful. I think that will not be that easy to find though, because most of the American MSM are left-leaning, pro-Democrat. And the "solutions" of those are usually more close to the European "solutions".

@Mir

"Anyway, the BBC is leftist mainstream, regularly anti-Bush and anti-American. I don't expect anything from their reporting and I have no interest in defending their so-called "reporting"."

Maybe of interest.

Confessions of a BBC liberal
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2240427.ece

From link:

"The second factor that shaped our media liberal attitudes was a sense of exclusion. We saw ourselves as part of the intellectual elite, full of ideas about how the country should be run. Being naive in the way institutions actually work, we were convinced that Britain’s problems were the result of the stupidity of the people in charge of the country.
...
This ignorance of the realities of government and management enabled us to occupy the moral high ground. We saw ourselves as clever people in a stupid world, upright people in a corrupt world, compassionate people in a brutal world, libertarian people in an authoritarian world. ... We were not Marxists but accepted a lot of Marxist social analysis. We also had an almost complete ignorance of market economics. That ignorance is still there."

Nothing you or I didn't know.

However, there is a steady and considerable level of general anti-Europeanism.

I quite agree with Sagredo's response to this. From my own perspective, there was virtually no anti-Europeanism until more Americans had the opportunity to be exposed to more Europeans (internet forums, news, and blogs). Before that, we generally had benign opinions of Europe (with the exception of those who spent some actual time in Europe), and even regarded Europe affectionatly. However, do you think someone could be the object of such persistantly bitter and irrational hatred without consequence? I think that resentment is a natural reaction.

However, I think that "anti-Europeanism" may not be the best term for the resentment. Calling it such suggests that the phenomenon is on even footing with anti-Americanism; it isn't. Among anti-Americans, you'll find that a large proportion of them relish every new pretense to hate America/ns - the whole point is to make America as evil as possible, in order to pose themselves in contrast. Far fewer anti-Europeans invest so much energy in finding justifications to despise Europe/ans; for the most part, their anti-European opinions are just not a component of their self-image. It's much more commonly just a "screw you" aimed at those they perceive as bearing them ill will. Additionally, you'll find that anti-Europeanism is not a pervasive media condition - in fact, it's rare among the media. You'll find that it exists almost entirely in everyday folks, and it does not seem to be sustained or propagated by popularity. I'm not sure offhand what a better term for it might be, though.


(I do not think German antiAmericanism can competer with that of the BBC)

Yes, the BBC is ouright hateful (not to even mention the Guardian, et al.), but comparing the average German people to the average British people I believe you'll find much the attitude much less typical. I think the Brits have much more exposure to contrary points of view and opinions when it comes to America.

@Tropby -

Source
"the government is investigating at least 17 German journalists from top publications, like Der Spiegel and Die Welt, for their articles about a parliamentary committee investigating these renditions. World news media organizations, including the Committee to Protect Journalists, have rightly demanded an end to what amounts to political intimidation by the German authorities in these cases."

At least the American journalist volunteered to be persecuted.


@Pam -
"The sizeable foreign community living in the area could react to the action," he added.

It's those uppity Norwegians again, isn't it? Or the Spanish, I bet. They're no end of trouble.

@Doug

I agree with many things you've said. I also think that anti-Europeanism isn't mainly found in the "mainstream" media, but in blogs, comments, talk radio etc. (but we should not forget here that many of the self-acclaimed small, contrarian "shows" have long become "mainstream" media in their own right). It comes usually from the right/the conservatives.

I also agree that anti-E is not "on even footing" with anti-A (but I still do think there is a considerable amount). Usually, Europe simply isn't on the radar.

However, I don't think that anti-E is merely a reaction to anti-A. Rather, I'd say that it pops to the surface whenever Europeans "dare" to disagree/interfere with US politics.
Had Germany supported the Iraq war, I'm sure we'd read lots of pieces on how great allies the Germans are and always have been, and how German democracy and history is a shining example for Iraq. As things were, people were quick to remember that Germans are still closet Nazis, and that they never were real allies anyway, and that Germany just generally sucks.

Apart from that, the argumentation "Don't fuss about it: It's just a reaction!" always again surprises me. It's amazing how often this comes from Germans who themselves try to speak up against anti-Americanism whenever they encounter it. Frankly, I don't care whether someone spouts nonsense about Europe because he's a true hater, just stupid - or just "reacting". Either way, I see no reason to excuse it.

@Mir
I'll readily admit that this is just a very subjective impression. I guess a lot of it are just some entries in random blogs that I visited once and never again... So, it's really hard to provide many links.

One example is Ralph Peters' (a best-seller author in the US, after all) hateful diatribe in the nypost

Another one I remember is Neil Cavuto, who "wondered" one(!) day after Katrina why no help from these ungrateful foreigners had yet arrived to the US. Although that's more an example for the more general "us vs them" stance than for anti-E. (sorry, I won't try to google the link, because right now I only have access to dial-up and it's glacially slow...).

@Fuchur
"However, I don't think that anti-E is merely a reaction to anti-A. Rather, I'd say that it pops to the surface whenever Europeans "dare" to disagree/interfere with US politics."

This 'dare' implies a tone which is purely in your imagination. It suggests a sense of fury which has, by and large been absent in the US. Except perhaps with 'interfere' in the sense of selling war materials to Saddam and the Iranians which are used to kill us and our allies. Why would you expect otherwise? You can disagree without profiting by our death.

And BTW, 'US politics' is bad English usage. You mean to say, I assume, US foreign policy. Only the British have had the gall, so far, during peacetime, to send letters of 'friendly advice' on how to vote 'intelligently' to people in a midwestern state in a recent election.
......

"Had Germany supported the Iraq war, I'm sure we'd read lots of pieces on how great allies the Germans are and always have been, and how German democracy and history is a shining example for Iraq. As things were, people were quick to remember that Germans are still closet Nazis, and that they never were real allies anyway, "

I doubt this very much. The Germans have not been 'great allies', ever. German history is not a 'shining example' for Iraq for multiple reasons:

The allied occupation of Germany was considered a failure for many years in large part because 'denazification' denuded the country of capable administration as did our attempts at 'debathification'. Both were rescinded.

Further, the Germans were not surrounded by Nazi governments who could aid armed rebellion as is the case for Iraq; if they were, they would have rebelled---the Nazis did not disappear overnight, the youngster brought up on their attitudes did not dissappear, and so on.

Further, Germans were not split by a more than thousand year old hatred between two halves of their population.

Further, Germany could build on the skills and traditions of a workforce unknown in any Muslim country.
.......

"and that Germany just generally sucks."

This is what is called 'projection'.
........

"Apart from that, the argumentation "Don't fuss about it: It's just a reaction!" always again surprises me. It's amazing how often this comes from Germans who themselves try to speak up against anti-Americanism whenever they encounter it."

Thanks for the good news!
........

"Frankly, I don't care whether someone spouts nonsense about Europe because he's a true hater, just stupid - or just "reacting". Either way, I see no reason to excuse it."

I read a lot and have lived a while and I must say I have not heard much 'nonsense' about Europe, here. I am sure there must be some. How about some examples especially ones which are as prevalent as those going the other direction.

I think you do project to a very large degree, your inner thoughts, and those of your country, upon us. It is to be expected; Europe is rapidly shrinking in every way from it former eminence. I must say, that the Turks have done much better in coming to terms with their loss of empire.

@ fuchur

It's good to see that you are able to admit that your perceived anti-Europeanism ist more of a subjective impression. Good find from the NY Post though. I agree that parts of that article can be called anti-European (though not particularly hateful), because it includes ignorance, imagination and prejudices. I think we have an agreement: There is anti-Europeanism in America, but it's not mainstream and it's nowhere near to the amount of anti-Americanism in old Europe.

Trophy posts:
"Reporters Without Borders publishes its third annual worldwide index of press freedom:
It ranks evil oppressive Germany much higher (#11) than the US (#22).
But who cares about journalists or the truth, when reality has such an anti-American bias."

Some anecdotal observations.
Oh my Gosh! A survey of reporters reports that the press in "Bush's Amerikkka" is being stifled. Quelle horreur!!! The other trenchant and recent survey among American reporters is the one that shows 80+% of them call themselves liberal, vote and donate money to the democrat party. But not to worry, they don't let their personal opinions interfere with their professional obligations . . . just ask them. I imagine the U.S.A. would have ranked up there with the Scandinavian countries if the survey had been taken back in the good ol' days during the "PAX Clintonia."

This is the Press that claims we have lost "all of our civil rights" although it can't offer a shred of evidence beyond their allegorical fantasies on principle, that and their own cosmic "knowledge!" Sort of like the ACLU's case on "domestic spying" -- well, if they were spying...we would probably be the kind of people ... they would probably be spying on!-- that was thrown out of court for lack of evidence.

This is the Press that takes democrat talking points on "Domestic spying" and "Bush Lied," and "Hurricane Katrina" debacle is all Bush's fault, etc . . . and prints it as factual headlines. (Which are immediately picked up by the European medias)

This a the Press that having lost approximately 15-20% of the media to center and right of center organizations is whining about the "mean tone of the political conversation today" and waxes nostalgic about "back in the good ol' days" when everybody got along. (read: when there were no other opinions than different shades of their opinion.) This is a Press that is also profoundly silent on the resurgence of the destructive, anti-First Amendment "Fairness Doctrine."

Having lived in Germany (returned July 05) for six years I distinctly remember a dinner conversation with a German friend, a police officer. I was saying how safe my wife and my friends wives feel in Germany and that it seems so much safer than the U.S.A. Deiter just started to laugh and without skipping a beat said, "That is because we just don't publish too much bad news!" I thought it was an interesting comment but it became much more clear after discovering that France has a very low crime rate too but then they keep it that way by fiddling with the definitions, like not reporting their "car-be-que" phenomenon unless it reaches more than 200 vehicles in a given night.

I found a frightening uniformity of thought in the medias and in my conversations with people throughout Europe. Most of it was just amusing. There was a certainty in Germany that the U.S. government was corrupt and generally failing. The German government however was a model of efficacy and probity. George Bush was almost universally ridiculed as corrupt and stupid, yet there was a decided lack of curiosity about Gerhard Schroeder going to work for Putin immediately after leaving office; or about the work he may have been doing for Putin while in office. American business is also considered "corrupt" and "money grubbing," as evidenced by by the ENRON scandal! Again there was a decided lack of knowledge or curiosity about the Mannesmann or Parmelat (which dwarfs ENRON) scandals.

In France, along with the car-be-que phenomenon, I continually encountered an interesting perception about how bad they just knew race relations were in the U.S.A. while they seemed wonderfully oblivious about their own Parisian Banlieues. The last time I was in Lyon I read La Figuero every morning for three weeks and every morning the last page of the front section was filled with a negative story about the U.S.A., usually with a color photograph.

My general impression of Europe was very positive but I also had a lot of my myths dispelled by living there. I didn't find the average European any better informed about the U.S.A. than I or my friends are on Europe. The Europeans "know" a lot of thing but like Ronald Reagan said, ...so much of what they "know" just ain't so!" They know the same things a lot of Americans "know" if they get their information from only the MSM, enduring that progressive circle jerk of watching the evening news, listening to NPR, and reading the NYTimes & WAPO. I found the average European just as dogmatic and rigid in what they believed as any cliche you hear about "stupid" Americans. I think the biggest difference is that being uninformed and rigid (A redneck?) sounds a lot cooler in a foreign language.
I think the vitriol of the last couple of years comes from the fact that the Amis have only recently become aware of this going on and have started to address it, like this blog. It becomes much more difficult indulge in your preferred prejudices and point a finger when who you are pointing at knows so much about you and responds. Practical Americans, instead of arguing emotional points, differences in perspective or political opinions, argue facts. So we go from the emotional Euro opinion of, "Bush is stupid and corrupt!" To the counter and factual American argument that "Schroeder sits at a desk at GAZPROM!" One is emotional and personal a difference of opinion ~ the other is tangible and a provable fact.

Lastly I am taking some course on African History. If you want to better understand why Europe seems almost gleefully obsessed on tearing down the U.S.A., why it seems to be focused like a laser beam on every American fault, real or imagined ... go to your history books. All of the colonial stories are not like, and did not turn out like, the U.S.A. or Canada. European history is predatory and racist, its practices were genocidal on the native peoples and its hunger voracious for the natural resources of others. Read the history of Iraq and one could easily make the case that George Bush is suffering the brunt of cleaning up another mess left by European colonialism. Of course they want to shift the focus and hopefully the blame too.
Placed on the scales of time or measured in any statistics ... whatever our sins, they pale in comparison. I think this may help explain why much of Europe seems so quick to use words like imperialism, genocide, and capitalist when talking about whatever the U.S.A. does or doesn't do. Like a salve on their guilty conscience, if the U.S.A. didn't exist Europe would have to invent it to allow them the psychological transference they are necessarily indulging in. Their guilt is such it seems they need to add some ointment every day.

But back to Trophys post. So, a survey of reporters has placed the U.S.A. 22nd??? Please ... in prison every man you ask is innocent of his crime too!

bis, Tyranno

@ RayD:

"Allow me to reiterate: Neither David nor I have ever claimed that criticizing American policy or conservative viewpoints is inherently anti-American. On the contrary: We believe that constructive criticism is a good thing and part of a healthy relationship"

You seem to believe that attacks on the politics of the US and/or its leadership are expressions of anti-Americanism, if they are not "constructive" but "excessive, biased, hypocritical or over-the-top criticism".

This is IMHO wrong.

I have viciously attacked Putin over his oppression of the press, I have denounced British extra-judicial killings of alleged IRA-members, I got angry about French state terrorism against the Rainbow Warrior and I insulted Mugabe. Many US conservatives have viciously attacked Schröder and Chirac.

None of these actions has anything to do with anti-whateverism.

Calling the French cowards and remarking about their personal hygiene shows Francophobia. Remarking on Americans being fat/lazy/whatever at least indicates an anti-American bias. Using the Nazi-sterotype on today´s Germans displays a lack of education and/or tact. (There are some exceptions for humor/satire, of course.)

Even if the attacks on Bush are unjustified, and the current US foreign policy proves to be the best thing since sliced bread, then it only shows that the person attacking Bush & Co. was wrong, not anti-American.

I suppose we have to agree to disagree here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am surprised that You insist on linking Bush with conservatives: This might be seen as an anti-conservative bias in most parts of the world, including the US according to recent polls. ;-)

Using the Nazi-sterotype on today´s Germans displays a lack of education and/or tact. (There are some exceptions for humor/satire, of course.

If Germans do not like Americans making references to Nazis, they should do the following.

1) Do not make references comparing Bush and Americans to Nazis, such as demonstrators comparing Bush to Hitler, or what Schroeder’s justice minister said about Bush in 2002. It doesn’t go over very well. I am not inclined to reflexively call Germans Nazis, because my many conversations with Germans have convinced me that they have been coming to terms with their past. When a President who has chosen blacks as Secretary of State is compared to Hitler, THAT is an insult to the President and to all Americans. What makes this comment even more insulting was that this did not come from an immature and ignorant college student, but from someone in Schroeder’s inner circle.
2) When you criticize Americans, make sure that your facts are straight. The Nazi propaganda machine lied about the United States, and when German journalists like Markus Guenther similarly lie about the US ( see the comments in Medienkritik), do not be surprised that a comparison is made.

"I was saying how safe my wife and my friends wives feel in Germany and that it seems so much safer than the U.S.A. Deiter just started to laugh and without skipping a beat said, 'That is because we just don't publish too much bad news!'"

When I lived in Zürich in the 80's I asked a police official I knew about the lack of crime news in the papers. He gave me the exact same answer.

Tyranno: The Europeans "know" a lot of thing but like Ronald Reagan said, ...so much of what they "know" just ain't so!"

Very accurate observation! From my personal experience I can say in all seriousness that the German media does an excellent job at convincing Germans that they are very well informed. This is one of the reasons why so many Germans fall for all sorts of phantasmagorical stories about different aspects of American life. One example would be one of the DMK semi-trolls who linked to a study claiming that the French media (amongst others) is more free than American media. Right. And Cuban hospitals are better than American ones.

Only someone who has been thoroughly lied to (or may I say manipulated?) by the media will accept the most blatant piece of misinformation with little second thoughts. That's what the German media has created - ideological drones. I'm quite sure that many German "journalists" are proud of their achievements. To hell with journalistic integrity, the Great Truth is much more important, even if it means sacrificing the real truth.

"Francophobia"? Can there be such a thing? Ok, maybe Greenpeace suffers from it...

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