Markus Guenther Colleaugue Responds with Insults - Bluster

Last week we brought you a report on an article written by newspaper correspondent Markus Guenther. (Read that here). Mr. Guenther's work put forth the argument that Americans gladly commemorate distant tragedies (Holocaust or slaughter of Armenians or the plight of Cubans or the victims of other communist regimes) - yet fail to commemorate their own national tragedies - such as slavery or the plight of Native Americans. The opening lines of his work read:

"Ein neues Mahnmal in Washington erinnert an die Opfer des Kommunismus. Doch über die Leichen im Keller der eigenen Geschichte geht die amerikanische Gedenk-Leidenschaft eher wortlos hinweg.

A new monument in Washington reminds of the Victims of Communism. But, when it comes to their own skeletons in the closet, the American passion for commemoration really goes by without a word." (emphasis ours)

We took him to task on that claim - pointing out that Americans commemorate the horrors of slavery and the plight of Native Americans through museums, holidays, film, education and many other means - including monuments and memorials. We also pointed out that millions of Americans are, in fact, victims of communism and/or took direct part in the struggle against communism - in Korea, Vietnam and along the Iron Curtain - refuting Mr. Guenther's claim that the Victims of Communism Memorial commemorates nothing more than a far away tragedy to Americans. Finally, we pointed out that Mr. Guenther's incorrect claims were certain to feed German resentments against the United States.

Well - it did not take long for Mr. Guenther's media friends to react. Journalist Ralf Schuler of the Maerkische Allgemeine (one of the papers for which Guenther writes) responded with an article on our posting - and the basic message was this: When criticized, Guenther and his colleagues will put protecting one another ahead of facts. In this case, Schuler defends his colleague by downplaying and diluting his anti-American comments, presenting an incomplete and one-sided version of the dispute and pointing to emails Guenther received that have absolutely nothing to do with our discussion - distracting readers and attempting to smear us by association. He writes:

"In the Crossfire of the “Incorrect”

Self-appointed media watchdogs in the Internet accuse MAZ’s America correspondent Markus Günther of anti-Americanism

RALF SCHULER

POTSDAM 

It was just a little tongue-in-cheek poke in the ribs, but it drew a violent response. MAZ’s America correspondent Markus Günther took the occasion of the solemn dedication of a Monument to the Victims of Communism in Washington by US President George Bush to look into the modes of thought of the Americans. His – somewhat loosely formulated – rule of thumb; “The further away suffering is from the USA, the more Americans empathize with it.” After all, the fate of the native American Indians or the Afro-American slaves is not as significant in the USA of today as the mass murder of the European Jews, the Armenian genocide, or the misdeeds of the Castro regime in Cuba.

This thesis isn’t particularly exciting in itself. After all, for obvious psychological reasons, people in other countries aren’t usually in the habit of wringing their hands over their own country’s misdeeds. Nevertheless, Ray D. flew into such a rage over the article (MAZ of June 20) that he published a fiery philippic against Günther on his website, “Davids Medienkritik-Online” (medienkritik.typepad.com) that was hardly justified by the actual text. He claimed that the author was one of those ignoramuses who don’t let the facts stop them from freely expressing their own anti-American resentments while they cater to those of the German public. D. drew attention to the many American museums which commemorate the history of the blacks and Indians. Fair enough, although museums aren’t the same thing as public monuments. And, for that matter, the level of engagement of the Americans in fighting Communism (not least significantly at the Berlin Wall) certainly gives them some connection to the victims of Stalinism. The article concludes with the question of why Günther was recently awarded the Arthur F. Burns Prize, which is supposed to be given for contributions to German-American understanding. After all, Markus Günther has actually contributed to the gulf between Europe and America, and reinforced anti-American stereotypes.

Normally one wouldn’t take such misleading and obviously ignorant rants from the nether regions of the web seriously, if D. hadn’t gone on to list the mailing address of the correspondent, so that other “good Americans” could give him a piece of their minds. What gives self-appointed media monitors (“we consider ourselves a watchdog site”) the right to take such punitive actions isn’t quite clear. Ray D. and his partner, David Kaspar, who run the site, reveal only that they are both German citizens, and consider themselves “politically incorrect” observers of politically correct reporting about America.

In any case, since then MAZ-correspondent Markus Günther has received a great deal of e-mail characterized by a remarkable niveau: for example, Frank Knapp from California – “A proud (yes proud) American!!” wrote, “I read your piece of excrement about how we Americans sweep our ugly past under the carpet. Slime balls like you are the reason that German-Americans like me don’t want to return to Germany.” And a certain David asks: “What did your father do in World War 2, Markus? He should have concerned himself more about you. The absence of normal parents often leads to problem children. I suspect the ovens in hell are more or less as hot as those in Germany’s past. Let me know when you get there.” Sowing hate between America and its one time allies or spreading disinformation are generally the least severe of the charges formulated in the messages. The point is made repeatedly in no uncertain terms that anyone who criticizes America in that way can only come from a Nazi family. No one with any self respect would seek to justify himself in response to such drivel, not to mention reply to it. Brazen anti-Americanism certainly exists in Germany; however the way in which D. and Kaspar use the protection of the Internet to unleash the most vulgar and shadowy species of “patriots” on journalists certainly won’t improve the situation. Quite the contrary.

Aside from the fact that Mr. Guenther did not have the courage to speak for himself - this article is nothing more than journalistic rear-covering. Mr. Guenther simply cannot support his flawed thesis: That the (supposed) absence of national monuments is somehow proof that Americans are unwilling to commemorate (or even make mention of) the tragedies of slavery and the oppression of Native Americans. But instead of making a case for his argument (or admitting he was wrong) - Mr. Guenther apparently decided it would be better to allow his colleague to score a few cheap points by lowering the debate and distracting readers with references to irrelevant emails.

Unfortunately, he simply cannot or will not address the following, specific criticisms of his original article:

---Mr. Guenther claims that Americans suppress memories of slavery. That is simply not the case. In fact, there are numerous museums, films and monuments that remind Americans of the horrors of slavery. Additionally, the American educational system spends a great deal of time and effort teaching about slavery and the Civil Rights movement at all age levels. Americans also celebrate Black History Month and Martin Luther King, Jr. Day.

---Mr. Guenther claims that Americans suppress memories of oppression of American Indians. Again, that is ridiculous. As we point out, there are dozens of museums and monuments all over the country - including the national museum in Washington - which does deal with the oppression and removal of Native Americans from their lands.

---Mr. Guenther addresses Abu Ghraib: Members of the US military, political elite and press all came forward to expose and address Abu Ghraib - and the issue was debated for months. The result was an anti-torture bill passed with an overwhelming majority in the Senate and signed into law.

---Mr. Guenther claims that Americans have little direct connection to the victims of communism. This despite the fact that 1.) Over 100,000 Americans died fighting oppressive communist regimes in Korea and Vietnam - with countless thousands more wounded. 2.) The United States spent enormous amounts of money and manpower to defend Western Europe from communism during the Cold War. 3.) Millions of Americans fled their home countries (Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, Eastern Europe and elsewhere) because of communist regimes and have family members who died at the hands of those regimes.

Once again - we invite Mr. Guenther to address those concrete criticisms of his article - not to defend his theory in abstract or general terms - or allow a colleague to do so. Further - the assertion that I was somehow in a "rage" is rather amusing considering my email attempts to engage Mr. Guenther in a dialog on his article and my expressions of empathy for Mr. Guenther in those very emails. Interestingly enough, that dialog stopped as soon as I asked Mr. Guenther to address my specific criticisms - for which he has yet to offer a direct response. Finally - the complaints about a few angry or inappropriate emails are really quite pathetic: If we dropped a tear every time we received an angry or inappropriate email - we would be crying our readers a river. Grow up - and stop deriding our entire readership as "vulgar patriots" simply because a few people went overboard in their email comments.

One of our commenter's put it best:

"Hat tip to Scholl for posting the German media response. Nothing surprising here. We’re all familiar with the MO from the German media apologists who show up here occasionally. Instead of addressing the substance of Ray’s criticism, the responses dismiss him as a self-appointed ranter. They then use the pretext that Ray posted Günther’s (public) e-mail address to try the usual canard of associating him with poison pen messages with which he and Medienkritik have no connection whatsoever. As you can see, the first response is mainly self-righteous whining and pathetic posing as the poor, misunderstood victim of the evil Medienkritik, and the second one is more of the same. We get the usual ludicrous and hackneyed “objective criticism” defense, demonstrating the extent to which German journalists are capable of the “self criticism” they so freely recommend to Americans. Apparently, “self criticism” is only of value when applied to Americans. German journalists have no problem with savage criticism of America. Dare to criticize them, though, and you can forget about “self criticism.” Read the hand wringing, self-righteous responses below, and you’ll get the idea. Other than the blurb from the second article (see below) there is no attempt to actually address the substance of Ray’s critique. If you think it might occur to these “professional journalists” to investigate further the many instances of American self-criticism in museums, monuments, children’s school books, etc., noted in the article, not to mention the comment section, dream on. After all, if they actually had the integrity, not to mention the common decency, to look at the facts for themselves, it couldn’t escape the notice of these “professionals,” not to mention that of their readers, that Günther’s “gentle poke in the ribs” is nothing but more of the usual lying propaganda. That, however, is a level of integrity to which they hardly aspire. Instead, Günther’s lame excuses are simply accepted at face value, with no attempt at further investigation. So much for German media “self criticism.”"

Endnotes: Mr. Guenther's email address is readily available online to anyone willing to take two seconds to Google it. Our publication of his email address was nothing more than the replication of information already available to the online public. If Mr. Guenther thinks that I am somehow using the Internet as cover or a hiding place to ambush and attack him - I will be happy to meet him anytime in person for an on-the-record taped interview on his article in Washington, DC in which I will give him every chance to clarify his comments. He can email me anytime to set that up.

Again - I am willing to continue this discussion. Is Mr. Guenther?

According to the website of one of Guenther's publishers, he received the Arthur F. Burns prize for journalism from the German Foreign Ministry in 2006. The site further states that: "Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier congratulated Guenther on the award and emphasized that he was "successful, in an impressive manner, in promoting and deepening the understanding between the United States and Germany." We encourage readers to contact the Arthur F. Burns journalist fellowship program with concerns about Mr. Guenther and his work. Email to: [email protected]. Please keep all comments polite and professional.

UPDATE: More journalistic circling-of-wagons in defense of Guenther at the "Augsburger Allgemeine" in an article by Rainer Bonhorst entitled "Unser Mann im Orkan der Empörung." (Looks like the attack of the "B" newspapers.) The modus operandi is much the same: The author attacks emails and comments left by others that have absolutely nothing to do with the arguments put forth by Davids Medienkritik. He then disingenuously attempts to imply that Guenther's comments were simple irony.

Comments

[bob]

"Looks like the attack of the "B" newspapers" is correct. What no Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung or Sachsische Zeitung? If provincial journalists think their public is served by misrepresentations and facts containing a dissemblence to the truth, who really cares? It is not the FAZ, Tagesspiegel or NZZ. The hicks can wash their cars and garden gnomes on Saturday morning and spend the evening in their Kaff's Biergarten and talk about the AFL-CIA's involvement in South America.

[WhatDoIKnow]

I am speechless at the way those people chose to defend Markus Günther. I am literally speechless. I will never get used to this level of dishonesty.

No one really addresses DMK's arguments. No interest *at all* in discussing of those arguments. Besides being plain and simple amazed by the tactics used, I am even more angry with myself because of how I still overestimate mainstream media.

Media bias? What bias?

[Don Miguel]

The preamble of the Code of Ethics of the US SPJ (Society of Professional Journalists) states the following:

"Members of the Society of Professional Journalists believe that public enlightenment is the forerunner of justice and the foundation of democracy. The duty of the journalist is to further those ends by seeking truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues. Conscientious journalists from all media and specialties strive to serve the public with thoroughness and honesty. Professional integrity is the cornerstone of a journalist's credibility. ..."

The original article by Markus Guenther and the defense by his colleagues is just another in a very long line of examples why IMHO journalists are poorly regarded in the U.S. (see the recent Pew poll) and why it is absurd to even consider many of them -- if not most -- to be "professional" in any sense of the word. Although in this case it is German journalists, they exhibit the same characteristics as their American counterparts in that it strains the credulity of an objective observer that many journalists are "seeking truth and providing a fair and comprehensive account of events and issues" or striving to "serve the public with thoroughness and honesty." In fact, I even wonder if many of them even understand what "professional integrity" is, much less live by it.

Decades of dealing directly with journalists, reading their treatment on events and issues that I am intimately familiar with and just seeing their everyday coverage has taught me that in general they are more interested in a fast and furious "account of events and issues" than a "fair and comprehensive" one, and are more lazy than thorough. Need I even mention bias? You only need to look at the coverage of Che Guevara over the last 50 years to see how neither professionalism nor integrity has been involved in the reporting on him. Even with mountains of evidence and innumerable eyewitnesses, he is still to this day reported to have been a towering intellect, great military leader, champion of the oppressed and a "perfect man" when in fact he never had a single military victory, oppressed the working classes, hated blacks and loved putting a bullet in the back of unarmed men’s heads. Yet so-called journalists wrote about the murdering, cowardly thug – and even still do -- as if he were the second coming of Christ.

[Scott_H]

Since one of their concerns seems to be your use of the Internet to make your rebuttal (or, as they describe it, to stir up trouble), perhaps they (as a group) will do the honorable thing and offer you the opportunity to set the record straight in the same newspapers they are using to spread their falsehoods -- so you can talk directly to their readers rather than to the "rabble" on the Interwebs.

What do you think?

[Tropby]

"Mr. Guenther simply cannot support his flawed thesis: That the (supposed) absence of national monuments is somehow proof that Americans are unwilling to commemorate (or even make mention of) the tragedies of slavery and the oppression of Native Americans."

Agreed, but the use of euphemism is:

Slavery was no tragedy like the Titanic, but a deliberate act of oppression. Call it an act of evil, call it a crime, but not a mere tragedy.

Indians were not only oppressed, but nearly eradicated. Just look at the demographic data between 1800 and 1900.

Somebody seems unwilling to commemorate (or even make mention of) the less glorious elements of US history.

[FranzisM]

Tropby - Mitch addressed both issues - slavery and American Indians on the other thread.

Ray - Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger has another Markus Günther diatribe, this one doesn´t even trust its readers to take their own look at this website.

Don Miguel - My impression is that Ernesto Rafael G. was turned into an icon not for how he lived but how he died. To complete the comparison you made, Guevara is a sort of Barrabas, and the CIA is seen as Pilatus.

[Helian]

Ralf Schuler and the rest of Mr. Guenther’s foul-mouthed reptilian sidekicks notwithstanding, it isn’t hard for anyone with a modicum of intellectual integrity to fact check his more than dubious claim that America ignores its own “skeletons in the closet… without a word.” Fifteen minutes of Googling are enough to expose the “award winning” Mr. Guenther as a deliberate peddler of propaganda lies. The idea that he simply could have been “mistaken” in his latest anti-American hit piece is out of the question. After all, even third rate German journalists posing as “Washington correspondents” don’t live in holes in the ground. Surely even he is capable of taking a brief look around in the city he is supposed to be covering. It is, after all the home of the massive Smithsonian museum system, the most famous, influential, and prestigious in the United States by far. The Smithsonsian has been a virtual poster child for just the kind of self-flagellation that Mr. Guenther suggested is lacking in his latest monument to "professional" German journalism.

Mr. Guenther could not have failed to notice the many permanent Smithsonian exhibits relating to slavery, civil rights, oppression of American Indians, etc., unless he is too immobile to take a short stroll down the mall or is blind. He might, for example, deign to notice the permanent African Voices exhibit at the Museum of Natural History, which deals prominently with slavery and colonialism along with other aspects of African American history. Or he could walk on and have a gander at this exhibit at the National Museum of American History (NMAH), which turns a critical eye on the oppression of workers and Jews as well as African Americans. Indeed, no one with a shred of intellectual honesty could ever claim the Museum of American History has passed by America’s history of oppression “without a word.” It’s ludicrous on the face of it for anyone who’s actually been there. Mr. Guenther needn’t worry that the Indians have been given short shrift at the NMAH. For example, an exhibit on the Indian Wars notes that “After the Civil War, thousands of Americans poured into the Great Plains on a collision course with the western Indian tribes. Homesteaders, ranchers and miners encroached on Indian lands and threatened native game and ways of life. They called on the U.S. Army to crush Indian resistance and confine tribes to government-controlled reservations,” and “…the United States forced tribes to cede their “rights of occupancy” and give up their ancestral homelands. After a series of bitterly fought wars, treaties and forced settlements divested Indians of millions of acres of land. Thousands of Cherokees, Chickasaws, Chocktaws, Creeks, and Seminoles were forced to move west of the Mississippi.”

For Mr. Guenther’s further perusal, allow me to suggest the recently constructed and spectacular National Museum of the American Indian (how could you have missed it, Mr. Guenther? It’s only a few steps away from the National Capitol), or the Smithsonian Museum of African American History. Of course, he might consider them a waste of time because they do include a lot of what he dismisses as “folklore,” but I assure him he will find ample documentation of the sins of America’s past as well.

There have been a host of Smithsonian special exhibits documenting the plights of African Americans and American Indians, not to mention less familiar oppressed minorities, such as the Japanese Americans. For example, a special exhibit at the National Museum of American History marking the bicentennial of the Constitution documented their internment during WWII. If Mr. Guenther happened to miss it, never mind, the Smithsonian still has a website devoted to it. According to its banner, “This site explores a period when racial prejudice and fear upset the delicate balance between the rights of a citizen versus the power of a state.”

There have also been many Smithsonian exhibits relating to slavery over the years. Far from passing by the practice “without a word,” one of them sparked controversy by its exceptional self-flagellation, claiming that slavery in America was particularly dehumanizing.

Perhaps the myopic Mr. Guenther missed one of the more important instances of the Smithsonian’s passing by the sins of America’s past “without a word” because it happens to be a traveling exhibit. It documents the story of Rosa Parks and the Montgomery bus boycott, and will be on prominent display in some of the most prominent museums in America from December 05 through December 09. According to the Smithsonian’s article on the exhibition, “The events that led to the 1955 Montgomery bus boycott culminated in the determined voice of an unyielding individual who stood up to the power of segregation. The story of Rosa Parks, an educated woman underemployed because of her skin color, has been recounted as a lone act of heroism against seemingly impossible odds.”

The four Smithsonian traveling exhibitions planned for the near future will include “Freedoms Sisters,” which documents the struggle of African-American women against racism, and “Let your Motto be Resistance,” a photographic tribute to the fight for justice of leaders of the civil rights movement in the United States. According to the Smithsonian’s description of the latter, “The exhibition's title was inspired by the rallying cry of celebrated abolitionist Henry Highland Garnet (1815-1882) who challenged the "slaves of the United States of America" to rise up and emancipate themselves. "Let your motto be resistance!," he exclaimed. "Resistance! Resistance! No oppressed people have ever secured their liberty without resistance!" A third of the four planned exhibits relates to American Indians.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. The problem isn’t that Mr. Guenther has been “misunderstood,” or is “too ironic.” The problem is that he is a third rate peddler of propaganda lies of a type all to common in the German media of today.

[Mir]

>> Self-appointed media watchdogs in the Internet accuse MAZ’s America correspondent Markus Günther of anti-Americanism

Should read:

Media watchdogs in the Internet state the obvious: MAZ’s America correspondent Markus Günther derlivers the usual and desired anti-American reporting. (How dare these bloggers to question us anyway? We are the ones to decide what's worth reporting. We don't need facts, we make them!)

[Don Miguel]

"My impression is that Ernesto Rafael G. was turned into an icon not for how he lived but how he died."

FranzisM, I agree with you on that in the sense that his death enhanced his iconic status, but he was an icon long before he died. And all due to quite a number of fawning American and European journalists, some who were gullible (at best) and others who lacked any sense of integrity.

[Fred H]

bob asked: "If provincial journalists think their public is served by misrepresentations and facts containing a dissemblence to the truth, who really cares?"

First of all, I do.
Since the article appeared in our local paper, many of my friends, neighbors, relatives, and colleagues probably read it. Sooner or later the topic will likely come up, and once again I will have to spend much time just setting the record straight before we can even begin to have a reasonable discussion.

Secondly, but more importantly, the article could get picked up by major press agencies. If that happens, it could suddenly be published by thousands worldwide. Most media outlets that publish reports from major press agencies assume that they have already been fact checked, and don’t bother to do any fact checking at all themselves before publishing. But, thanks to Davids Medienkritik, it has become more widely known that the article in question contains factual errors. And now that it is also known that the author and publishers are aware of the factual errors, any further publication would constitute a deliberate lie. That makes it somewhat less likely that these factual errors will be more broadly published.

[George M]

In my last post regarding the thread concerning the reporting of Markus Guenther, I described three particular anecdotes concerning how the U.S. and Germany remembers the less honorable parts of their pasts. In my anecdote about the U.S., I described with particularity the discovery in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, of a long lost slave cemetery that was discovered when the city accidently unearthed it during the renovation of a street. This story was supported by web addresses which I provided.

I also described two personal anecdotes of where I came across fairly recent Jewish archeological sites, that have been neglected by local authorities in Germany. In one incident I described a neglected Jewish cemetery near the city of Herleshausen, Hessen. This cemetery lies in a wood line, neglected with 70 years of overgrowth. A cemetery for Russian POWs lies directly adjacent to the Jewish cemetery. It lies in a clear meadow and my 20 year-old recollection was that it was kept up, despite cold war sentiments. I also described a house that lies in a small city in Hesse that the locals consider an eyesore. The house is nicknamed “Das alte Judenhaus” by the old-timers. It has many Hebrew inscriptions carved into it. It has been neglected for 40 years since its former German owners expanded their bakery.

I am willing to use Ray Drake as an intermediary to describe these two sights with particularity if any German reporters want to use the above two anecdotes for a story. If Germans think that they have addressed all of their past, then I challenge any German reporter with the “balls,” to do a story on abandoned Jewish archeological sites in Germany. I speak German fluently and I am ready to tell my story to any German reporter who has the courage to report on this subject.

[Mike H.]

Tropby, if you were anything except a troll I would tell you of a number of stories of courageous people like Joseph of the Northwestern part of our nation or the Dene or Kwakiutl. It would be useless of course. You don't really give a damn unless it fits into your diatribe against America. Your ignorance of your subject is more telling than the rumors that you offer.

[Tropby]

Mike H., You are making Mr. Guenther´s point by whitewashing US history. Sorry.

This is even more ironic, as I was just irritated by two terms ("tragedies of slavery and the oppression of Native Americans") I considered to be euphemistic.

I shall stop posting in this thread now, to avoid derailing it. You may have the last word.

[wc]

Super, job well done Ray.

You obviously hit a BIG nerve with the MSM this time. I have seen the response so often from the MSM every time Rush or Sean say something the MSM does not like. (Which is almost always.)

It is a waste of time to ever think they will change however. They will not change no matter how many facts they hear, read or see. These biased commie pinko liberal types will always be the way they are. (Of course there are some exceptions, but I think those are not converted people but people that realized that they were in the wrong role.)

As far as Hr. Guenther, he has been caught in a lie and doesn't know how to get out of it. Give him the chance. Show some mercy, as good conservatives do. Ask him if he meant to convey the message that there is no grand monument to Slavery such as the monument to Abraham Lincoln, the Vietnam War Memorial or other such grand monuments. Then he can squirm his way out of this situation. Will this be a lose for you? No. The next time he picks up his pen he will be writing with a little bit of gratitude and not with a little bit of revenge. That would be a small victory because of you and this blog, a step in the right direction.

He will always be biased, but it is possible to tone down his bias somewhat.

You have to admit, there is no Slavery Monument to equal the Washington Monument and others.

[romanthomas]

They want to talk about monuments. Go to S. Dakota and look up the monument of Crazy Horse. Being built out of the granite mountains, it is 10x bigger than Mount Rushmore. 560ft tall. It actually takes up the entire mountain, with an all Native American University being built below it.

And what?! Museums are less important than monuments. I didn't understand that comment. Actually, if you think about it, they are more important. They give you much more info.

And about not involving minorities. How many Turkish people are in the government in Germany. How many non Germans are in politics at all. How many non German names do you see on the National Soccer team. They should practice what they preach.

[joe]

Almost everything written by Germans about the US is more of a commentary about Germany than anything else.

Asked yourself why this article addresses monuments? Why examin slavery in the US? Why enter into such a debate?

Is it important that Germans like the US? I don't think so. Besides has never been on the right side of history when it had a choice. Who really thinks going forward this will change?

[FranzisM]

I think what Tropby is trying to bring into mind is this:

the Holocaust was not an accident in history -- it occurred because individuals, organizations, and governments made choices which not only legalized discrimination, but which allowed prejudice, hatred, and ultimately, mass murder to occur.

It seems to imply that the same thing could be said about what it imagines to be an American kind of holocaust.

[Mike H.]

Franzis, by talking about the holocaust don't we educate ourselves on the shortcomings of the decisions that are made? And by talking about the slavery that occurred in the US aren't we doing the same?

What Tropby was trying to do was to force someone else to shoulder the stigma of evildoing so that he could relieve himself of his imagined guilt. What he doesn't realize is that by and large we don't consider ourselves to be the recipients of our grandfathers guilts, only of their lessons. The 'Don't do this' lessons.

[FranzisM]

Mike - I agree. But then again, if the troll would think that way, this would require it to come to certain views on Hamas and a number of other governments in West Asia and Africa, which would leave very little room for the worldview sustained by the media in Germany.

[Mike H.]

Agreed, but I state my opinion here which, as right as I consider it, will not cause one to be invited to any soirees locally. I must away, to snarl at my elected representatives. Oh the ignominy of having to deal with the political class.

[Dick Sykes]

It is somewhat disturbing when I read the comments about commenorating our dark or less than sterling deeds.

Mr Guenther does not seem to realize that this country went to war over the slave issue, making it one of the few countries in the world to go to war with itself over an issue. Certainly this was not not done during the time of Hitler, which was equally as dark.

What say you Mr Guenther.

[Orbit Rain]

Writers like Guenther are why we American's ignore people in that state smaller than Montana. Truth is truth...and he doesn't know it...If you tell me a lie about my intentions and my thoughts, how I was brought up, what my neoghbors think, then don't be surprised by my indifferent ignorieren...

...extrapolate that out to the rest of Germany that believes the lies...

[kid charlemagne]

Recently I have been pleased to discover that the Amerika-Korrespondent for the Tagesspiegel, Christoph von Marschall, is a relatively fair and objective reporter who keeps the anti-American cliches in his columns to a minimum. He recently wrote an article about the American press coverage of the German refusal to let Tom Cruise film his Stauffenberg biography here which pointed out what I've long observed: that the American press covers Germany much more respectfully and "differenziert" than the German press covers America.

[FranzisM]

Mike - Hope that all that snarling doesn´t turn you into a troll, as it has so many.

How comes that Western countries do have a political class? The best system would be the one where these with the best grasp on the situation get into political positions, not these who pay the best lip service to those who are already there.

[Mike H.]

Franzis, I'm certain that the senators and congresscritters consider me a troll. We have had some good news recently, with the looming failure of the illegal immigration bill, some of the localities on the southern border started enforcing existing illegal immigration law and crime at the border has dropped where the enforcement was being effected. It's amazing what can be done if the laws are properly administered. My apologies for being O/T David and Ray.

[Sagredo]

I do not know to whom on this list my comment is addressed, if any, but I do think it applies to a vary large number of people who criticize the U.S. (and many other things for that matter).

The first time I became conscious of this problem was many years ago when I first heard demonstrators in the 60's and 70's refer to US police, who were trying to do their job, as 'Nazis'. I feel the shock to this day because it was, so to speak, my loss of virginity. Language rape is so common to me now now that I feel only dull anger when it is perpetrated. Thus when any number of people get killed, on purpose or as byproducts of military action one hears both 'genocide' and 'holocaust' almost as a matter of course. The purpose of this (when it is used purposefully and not out of simple stupidity, political correctness, follow-the-fashion,...) is two-fold. One: 'hey, you see it was not so special, it happens all the time, the Jews are making it out to more than it was because....well, you know why'. Two: 'hey, it was nothing special so we Germans do not have such special guilt in our history. My Grandfather just did what your would have done'.

Now we have in this thread, constant blather about Black Slavery and the Native American problem. The second of these is so ridiculous, I will barely even comment on it---it was simply a story of technologically advanced people, desparate to leave an oppressive Europe and Asia, and fighting for land and a chance at freedom against pretty ferocious (and often outstandingly brutal) warrior people. There was no organized genocide in the sense of ridding America of all the Native peoples. And there were no concentration camps, just reservations which are big gambling money-makers for the tribes.

Black Slavery is a more serious question, but only slightly so. Let me make just a few very obvious points: (1) The Germans wanted to kill as many Jews as they could, the slaveowners wanted to fill as few as they could--slaves were wealth. (2) The Germans devised --happily, gladly, joyfully--innumerable tortures and degradations in the camps. While there were certainly cruel slaveowners, and cruelty and degradation was part of being a slave, it came in all degrees, depending on particular interpersonal behavior, it was not considered morally acceptable behavior by even the majority of southern families, it was fought bitterly over many years, and a very large price was paid in blood of young men in the Civil War which was in large part to free the slaves. There is no analogy anywhere in German behavior.

These points are clear to anyone with only a modest education and open mind. That Germans attack the US using this kind of language rape to escape an honest look at themselves is a deep moral sickness. And Americans should not play into their sick games by arguing how much we do or do not atone and remember for failings in our own history.

[Mike H.]

Sagredo, we can though, pass along the lessons that we've learned to those willing to listen. And to say that the conditions with the Indians just happened is to gloss over things like the turning on the Cherokee Nation after they had met all of the qualifications necessary to be considered a sovereign nation. Sequoyah had done quite a bit in bringing up the level of education and the Cherokee had an ambassador in Washington. The way that we turned on them was backstabbing to say the least. Am I going to feel guilty because it happened? No! Am I going to ignore it if someone tries it again? Again, No!

Your points are good, but you shouldn't come down so hard on those, who aren't trolling, but rationally discussing history.

[FranzisM]

Mike - The immigration bill issue may not be entirely OT, since from what is in the media it is next to impossible to understand what it is all about.

What I do understand is that unlike in the issue of African refugees to Europe, enlisting totalitarians (Castro?) to keep them out seems not to be an available option.

[WhatDoIKnow]

Bottom line is that Markus Günther spread miserable lies, his defender endorsed those lies by ignoring them and attacking DMK, and that's the end of it.
Another page in the glorious book of German journalism has been written under our eyes. Furthermore, many more will come here in the future and claim that the German media is pure and noble and that DMK is a deluded right-wing outfit.

The German public is the real looser in all this, but who really cares about it? The German media obviously doesn't.

[Mike H.]

Franzis, We're against the idea of 'holding camps' and the border fix would be what Spain already has in place by Morocco. Our fence would be patrolled by a department of the federal government called the Border Patrol. Then those who wanted to come work would apply for a seasonal pass and those who wanted to emigrate from Mexico would apply through the embassy.

The connection with Castro is a previous treaty with Cuba that allowed us to lease the land at Guantanamo. The period was for 99 years. We are in control of the property.

There are two schools of thought on the immigration problem, one school wants to give all illegal immigrants amnesty and maybe tighten up the border a bit. These people are worried that enforcement would tie up cheap labor so as to be non-usable. The other school of thought says that no action should be taken on anything until the border is secured. Once the border problem is solved then discussion can start on the twelve million Mexican Nationals who have already come across the border. The second school also has an element of anger at Mexico for having a level of corruption that makes the US an attractive destination for work.