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So what did Mr Wiedeking say about Kyoto?

Note from David: So what do you want to say? As usual, your comment is beside the points made in the posting.

Apologies for the OT.

For all readers in the U.S: Tonight at 9 pm EST, PBS is showing a new 'American Experience' documentary on the Berlin Airlift. The WSJ review calls it 'a film of astonishing power'.

del. by our stupidity detector.

Three things:

1)Porsches do not run with diesel

2) Fuel efficiency per km has to take into account the different driving requirements. In the U.S. commuting drivers typically drive longer stretches of freeways but at cruising speed (which consumes less per km or mile) while in Germany driving in congested cities is more common. Stop and go consumes more per km.

3) Wiedeking is partly right to complain. Porsche ONLY produces fast sports cars which will simply not be able to meet those CO2 emission requirements like a small city car can.

Since the Grenzwert is calculated by a fleet of cars the manufacturer produces and not individual lines of cars, Mercedes can compensate for the more wasteful large limousines by producing more small low energy cars.
Porsche cannot. Nobody buys a "Porsche Mini". They may (and must) still reduce CO2 emissions, but they can't be expected to meet the Grenzwert in the supposed time frame.

Note from David:
"Porsches do not run with diesel": Where in my posting do I say it does?
"Fuel efficiency per km has to take into account the different driving requirements." I am talking about fuel efficiency of the same models under identical conditions. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that. No comparison of S 500 driving long distance in the U.S. vs. S 500 inner-city driving in Germany.
Amelie, as I have stated before: your default comment is beside the point, loaded with inaccuracies and misunderstandings. Why can't you simply start your own blog and - if you like - publish in there your comments to my postings? I promise I won't bother to visit your site.

Math update:
(liter per kilometer / CO2 g/km)
S500
U.S.: 11.2 / 264 g/km 0.0424 liter/CO2g
Germany: 12.1 / 292 g/km 0.0414 liter/CO2g

etc for the rest do the math.
KM cancels out so liter/CO2g is the measurement.

Note from David: Is this a joke comment? You create a statistic that's decreasing if CO2/g rises _or_ fuel consumption decreases? What is the interpretation of changes in this statistic? What's the meaning of a high or a low value for this statistic?
On second thought I realize you probably interpreted "11.2 / 264 g/km" as a ratio? Of course, it's not a ratio. It's just two pieces of data, separated by a slash.
Not in my wildest dreams did I foresee this misunderstanding...

Life is just tough all over.

Wait till the requirement arrives that a percentage of cars sold will have to be multi fuel capable. There does seem to be some movement on the 20-10 proposal that the POTUS made during the SOU address.

Of course Porsche really does not need the US market anyway.

@hans harz: as always you germans do not want to recognize a simple, proven fact:
I think that to say "
schon mal überlegt das der sprittverbauch in europa und amerika nach verschieden Normen gemessen wird?)"

is exactly like saying:
"in my opinion perhaps 2+2 = 4 in all the rest of the world, but for us germans, the superior people, it can make 3 or 5 depending on what we need..."

and... Btw... this here is a blog where you are supposed to post in english; since you tell everyone else, like us stupid italians, that your english is perfect (no matter what the latest PISA study shows about the quality of your schools!!), then show us please, you superior german, that you are also able to speak english !
(and do not forget to correct my mistakes, obviously (something that a real german can not resist to!))
spaghettifresser
Alex

Hans Harz
Whay a crock of shit you are postig.
Did you know that the American emissions have always been stricte than those of Germany/
Did you know that in the USA katalisatoren and lead free gas made mandatory 15 years prior to being introduced into Germany?
Did you know that the American Fleet of cars has a better gas mileage than the German fleet?
Did you know that Mercedes can't sell their newest Diesels in quite a few states until 2009, when they hope to bring a satisfactory engine design into the US?
Did you know that the US federal guidelines regarding to emissions are identical to those of the EU whith the exception of a number of states including NY and California have such strict emission controls that the newest German BMW and Mercedes can't be purchased and registered?
Did you know that you are an idiot?

"Conclusion: the leading German luxury car maker sells cleaner and more fuel efficient models in the U.S. than in Germany! Why-oh-why?"

They exactly the same engines in those cars in the US as in Germany. They just measure the fuel economy differently. (Note from David: Can you come up with the different measurement definitions?)
Also, there are a lot more A and B Classes sold in Germany, that have a better fuel economy.

@ americanchoice
"Did you know that the American Fleet of cars has a better gas mileage than the German fleet?"
That doesn't mean much. What counts is the cars germans buy and how many miles each person drives per day. And there is probably a big difference between germans and americans.

The difference of "Gasoline Per Capita Use" is big:

US: 464 Gallons per Year in 2004 = 1756 Liters per Year
Germany: 140 Gallons per Year in 2001 = 530 Liters per Year

Sources:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gasoline_per_capita.html
http://www.umweltservice.de/news/2001/351.html

Also, I think the last part of the post should be removed because it is wrong.

niko k

That 464 gallons per capita figure doesn't make much sense to me, given the huge differences in the populations. I would like to see a figure of gallons per licensed driver. Also, it doesn't make much sense to me to compare 2001 figures with 2004 figures.

Don't misunderstand: I think the 464 per capita figure for the U.S. is low simply based on my own driving. My driving is fairly proscribed. Our office is in our house so I have no commute and my yearly consumption is about 280 gallons. (We both drive C-class Mercedes.)

But we are the exception. The U.S. is BIG. Even in local terms. I picked up a young man from the Netherlands at Dulles Airport (about 30 miles from our house), drove him around the Washington tourist sites and back to the airport. He was astounded. We had driven half the width of his country. To me, it was simply a local jaunt. To him, it was an excursion.

So, my way of saying I am not sure that a 'gallons per capita' measurement is of much use. I'd rather see a 'miles (or km) per gallon/liter' number.

And, as an aside, I would like to note the huge entertainment value of watching an Italian diss Germany.

/in my next life, I'm going to be Italian

"(Note from David: Can you come up with the different measurement definitions?)"

The emmission measurement definition for the US is called FTP 75, the one in Europe is called NEFZ. The results vary because they use different driving cycles. Here is a paper about these measurements: http://www.cleanairnet.org/caiasia/1412/articles-59356_paper.pdf

@ niko k

The difference of "Gasoline Per Capita Use" is big:

US: 464 Gallons per Year in 2004 = 1756 Liters per Year
Germany: 140 Gallons per Year in 2001 = 530 Liters per Year

A few facts are missing:

1)
Land mass of the USA: 9,161,923 sq km
Land mass of the BRD: 349,223 sq km

The land mass of the USA is 26x greater than the BRD but gasoline consumption is only 3.3x as much. What is the average fuel efficiency?

2) The second link you provided does not indicate how the per capita measurement was made for Germany. Last year I consumed 493.21 liters and drove 5504.40 km within German borders. What about the >50% of the German population which flees the country every chance they get? Is gasoline consumption of German citizens in Italy, Switzerland, France and Spain included in the statistic?

I picked this up from LGF. As this blog quite rightly nails bias in the German media, I think I see some bias ABOUT GERMANY in this British newspaper.

But you tell me.

Holocaust memorials defiled by neo-Nazis

The German authorities were preparing for criticism from the Jewish community after it was revealed that a Holocaust memorial in Berlin was being used as a public lavatory by tourists and by neo-Nazi sympathisers.

This is the very first sentence in the article. First of all, the piece doesn't give any information about how it knows this is due to 'tourists' or neo-nazis.

But my real problem is this: The assumption that the complaints would come only from Jews.

here's the rest. Is this a fair depiction of Germany?

The disclosure, in a Berlin newspaper, will trigger a new debate about how the Holocaust should be remembered in Germany.



One argument against building the monument — that consists of 2,700 concrete slabs resembling Jewish gravestones — was that it would become a target of anti-Semitic vandals. The managers of the memorial, which attracts 3.5 million visitors a year, have tried to play down the scandal.

“This just belongs to the teething problems of any new monument,” Uwe Neumaerker, of the Memorial Foundation, said. The German Government has been aware of the problem since the monument was completed in May 2005 but has tried to maintain a silence for fear of encouraging more vandalism.

The defacing of Jewish memorial areas in Germany by followers of the far Right has become a widespread problem that is acknowledged rarely.

On the eve of Holocaust Day at the weekend a group of youths set fire to a restored railway carriage — symbolising the deportation of the Jews — in Lower Saxony. In the eastern German port of Stralsund, concrete was poured over a memorial for a Jewish family, the Keibel-Cohns.

A court in Frankfurt an der Oder, on the Polish border, sentenced three youths to between nine and 14 months jail this month for urinating on a Jewish memorial.



@ Pamela

The first two paragraphs of the rest you quoted sound like an english translation of an article I read at Spiegel Online, so I guess they are a fair depiction.

The last two paragraphs were not included though, and the reason is probably:
"The defacing of Jewish memorial areas in Germany by followers of the far Right has become a widespread problem that is acknowledged rarely."

Right-wing activities have increased a lot in the last few years, and at some point it began to bore the audience to read about it all the time. So in most medias it is only reported in really heavy cases.

Sometimes it even begins to create strange developments. The most successful soccer club in germany, Bayern München, has red and white as its colors. And at the last match against Dortmund, while the fan block was depicted at the TV when they scored, I could see some impressive looking flags among the fans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Naval_Ensign_of_Japan.svg

At first I couldn´t believe it and the TV guys obviously didn´t notice or care at all, it was the flag of the japanese imperial navy!

niko k
5.1.07 die welt and others

Detroit Motor Show / VW und Mercedes zeigen blitzsaubere Dieselautos / Sie sind Konkurrenten, doch ausnahmsweise arbeiten sie mal zusammen. ... Dafür bieten sie den Amerikanern sogar bessere Motoren an als den Europäern.
Do some research, don't just say some of the things you want us to believe to be true, such as: But, they use different measurements, etc.

for anyone who wonders about the low amount of particles in the US, here we reduced the particle emission from diesel from 500 to 15! by targeting the source (Fuel) instead of adding filters which are costly and questionable.
Just a different way of combating the problem than in Europe.

Alex,

I noted that Italy was the first European country willing to speak truth to power and name Hamas the terrorist organisation it is.

My knowledge of the politics of our transalpine Southern neighbour is as limited as my knowledge of the Italian language. Can you recommend some good sources on Italian affairs, pleasE?


Pamela,

lack of public toilets is a serious problem in many German cities. In the 20th century even Autobahnen were built more often without restrooms than with. Maybe Peter Eisenman thought the Tiergarten would be suitable? Still, there are some Germans as well who would deface a memorial even if there was no toilet problem.

Posted by: niko_k | January 30, 2007 at 10:33 AM

"They exactly the same engines in those cars in the US as in Germany. They just measure the fuel economy differently. (Note from David: Can you come up with the different measurement definitions?)"

There is another reason the same engine may have different efficiency levels. Different programming on the computer controlled fuel injector system... Because the US emissions requirements are different, you can sell the same car with different programming to create different levels of exhaust / wastes. There is a whole market in the US for performance ROMs / eproms for cars... you buy the new chip, replace the factory one, and you gain horsepower.... The modern equivalent of replacing your carburetor with a performance model…

OT:

You guys need to read this:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/01/first-they-came-for-domain-names.html#links

First They Came for the Domain Names

In recent days our reader and frequent commenter Kepiblanc has talked about the coming takeover of local European internet governance by the EU. His latest mention of it was on yesterday’s Fjordman post:


Fjordman’s enthusiasm for the Internet may vanish when he realizes that the EU is about to take over control of the DNS (Domain Name System) from USA-based ICANN (Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers). A few years from now no European citizen will be able to read blogs like this one.

His comment piqued my interest, and I needed more information. Last night I emailed him with a question:


Kepi,

I need to pass more information about this on to the Europeans, particularly the Brits, in the 910 Group. Can you give me more details, or at least some URLs where you got your information?

His prompt reply was waiting in our inbox this morning:
....

@americanbychoice
None of the Mercedes cars mentioned in the post above are using diesel engines and fuel efficiency and CO2 emmisions doesn't have anything to do with particle emission anyway. They have the same engines. So why is there a difference in your opinion, if it's not different measurements.

@Thomass
I know that there are many ways to get a better fuel efficiency using the same engine, like reducing weight, more defensive driving... I don't think they are using a different fuel injector system in the US cars since the specifications (hp) are the same.

Niko k
Die welt article is about diesel engines and they also point out about the most stringent controls n the world bein in several states of the USA. This year you will have to add NJ, Washington, Oregon NH, Mass and Canada who will be joining this system. Die welt also says that the Mercedes engines will be better than those offered in Germany.
What exactly is your point, I don't get it?

Of course, speed limits on the autobahn would improve the average gas mileage. But let's not go there.

Sandy P, I'm confused. I thought that conference was in 2005 - why am I seeing an article from Oct 2006? The UN and the EU both tried it - and they got smacked down. This crap has been going on for years.

And unfortunately, they will continue to try. It seems that blogs are slowly beginning to make a (still very small) difference in Germany and probably the rest of the EU. How wonderful it would be if the EU had control over the internet: Finally, I wouldn't have to worry about many problems - because I wouldn't know about them.

The EUSSR is set to take over the .eu domain, Pamela.

We might not be reading DM anymore unless we find a way around it.

go over to Gates of Vienna and check out the graphic - that's for you, Gunter - it fits.

@ americanbychoice
first of all my point is that the last part of the post is wrong and shoud be removed.

Also, you write "Do some research, don't just say some of the things you want us to believe to be true, such as: But, they use different measurements, etc.". I think you need to do some research...

And then you write: "Did you know that the American emissions have always been stricte than those of Germany". You just need to look at the chart above, to see that you are wrong.

Did you know that the American Fleet of cars has a better gas mileage than the German fleet? This is such a weird statement... What do you want to say with it. Not every german drives a Porsche Carrera, you know. In fact most germans drive very fuel efficient cars due to very high gas prices.

niko k
No, the post iot wrong. It starts with: "ALSO" pointing to a different criteria. While the chart refers to Diesels, The reference refers to gasoline cars.
The American emissions have always been stricter, read my post. We started Catalytic converters 15 years prior to Germany's introduction as well banning leaded gas. While the US norm is the same as the EU (EU5) many states have aopted such strict enforcements, Mercedes and BMW have hard time getting into compliance.
My statement about the fleet is not wrong. Fleet means all cars manufactured and uses an average. By the way, the difference is 1.3 liters for 100 kilometers.
I know, now you will come back with how do the people in Cal, NY etc. drive new cars if that's correct? Well, many international as well as domestic manufacturers have produced cars that meet those regulations.

Sandy P., other than the Gates of Vienna posting, can you provide a link that something is imminent? I can't find anything later than 2005 (and I followed it closely back then as I was in an absolute panic myself). Altho' apparently there was another mtg. scheduled for Greece in 2006 but I can't find anything about it

One observer, University of Ottawa law professor Michael Geist, said the "U.S. simply had a very strong hand and played it well." But the European Union may not have been as committed to radical change as press reports indicated over the last few months, Geist said, and in the end it decided to back down from a public fight.

So this is just going to happen all over again in a few months?
Sort of. The deal creates a U.N. body--the IGF--that's devoted to just discussions and has no power to regulate. So because all delegates can do is talk, expect plenty of it.

What's most likely to happen is that the IGF will schedule a series of smaller meetings, with the first one in Greece in 2006. Then, in 2010, the U.N. will reconvene another major summit to decide what to do next. Secretary-General Kofi Annan hinted at this on Wednesday, saying the United Nations works on five-year plans.
FAQ: Tunisia summit and Internet governance

Dated November 2005.

I don't mean to be cantankerous. I'm simply mystified.

'EUSSR'. I am so stealing that..........

@ Pamela

As far as I know, it's not imminent. But you know the EU and the UNO, they won't stop trying. Most of the time we don't really know what the EU does or wants to do anyway. You just make sure that Democrats don't take over the White House (and please also take the congress away from them), otherwise not only will the US probably give in to those stupid and dangerous demands of the "international community", but you may very well face attempts to censor the internet yourself.

del.
No insults against this blog.


americanbychoice:
"No, the post iot wrong. It starts with: "ALSO" pointing to a different criteria. While the chart refers to Diesels, The reference refers to gasoline cars."
I don't understand what you want to say here, sorry.

"My statement about the fleet is not wrong."
I never said your statement about the fleet was wrong. I just said it is useless.

"I know, now you will come back with how do the people in Cal, NY etc. drive new cars if that's correct?" Why would I. There are enough german cars that meet these regulations.

These summits don't really matter anyway, China already proves how to censor the internet on a national level. Once the political will emerges, the EU could do the same or more (of course all in the name of anti-discrimination, prevention of "hate speech" etc.), even without cooperation of the US. The result would be that some websites (doesn't matter if they are hosted in Europe or elsewhere) would simply not exist for us.

You might also want to have a look at this graph:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4773/2076/1600/Gas%20Economy%20Trend%20Lines.2.gif

(source: (ppt presentation, sorry) http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/seminar/docs/2005/ea_seminar_feb_10.ppt)

Back on topic.

Apparently there is a report coming out by climate scientists that says we will all be dead by 2100 unless we do something now about globular worming.

They are recommending mirrors to deflect sunlight.

I am not posting satire. I read about the upcoming release of the report in the Financial Times today and several US cable channels covered the 'mirrors' aspect.

This report apparently ascribes responsibility for the majority of globular worming to human activity.

I haven't seen it but I can't wait.

I love mirrors. I think I'll invest in a company that makes them.

@FranzisM
lack of public toilets is a serious problem in many German cities. In the 20th century even Autobahnen were built more often without restrooms than with. Maybe Peter Eisenman thought the Tiergarten would be suitable?>

I had a HUGE problem with this article. The assertions without evidence are rampant.

The German authorities were preparing for criticism from the Jewish community after it was revealed that a Holocaust memorial in Berlin was being used as a public lavatory by tourists and by neo-Nazi sympathisers.

WHAT German authorities? Some Berlin newspaper that is never referenced. How does this 'reporter' know the offenders are tourists and Neo nazis?

Basically, this is some Brit reporter sitting his/her fat ass at a desk, reading some who knows what German newspaper, calling a 'source' for a quote and filing a report.

What a bunch of bullshit.

I mean really. Urine and feces in a public place, (whatever its context), would, because of its context, put officials on the defensive from Jews. Not Germans in general, who I assume don't care to step in piss and shit.

As you point out [but I did not know] maybe this is just the consequence of lack of public facilities and not necessarily a political commentary.

Is there a DNA test for 'tourist'.

gah. I think Germany was treated horribly in this piece.

del.

Note from David: You want an answer, Amelie. Here it is: stay away from my postings. For an explanation read our comment policy. Feel free to comment Ray's postings.


test

Amelie
And since CO2 emission depend directly on fuel consumption

Nope. In part, they depend on the fuel.

Pamela,

This and That

Here’s hoping things improve for you and hubby so you can upgrade from your Benz to a Lexus. According to JD Powers rankings you will see a huge difference in quality.

Reference us all being dead by 2100. Do you think they could move this forward? I could stop pumping money into my retirement plan and just become a mindless consumer even buying a Hummer – the real one like Arnold has- and then whine about the cost of gas and gas milage.

Dear poor Amelie,
Don't you realize that even your infallible German media is reporting the difference between the Engines made for Germany and those made for export to the USA?

It is not so unusual because "USA Export cars" have always had better equipment installed due to varying emission and safety regulations.
Couls it be that it would cot too much and thus cut into their profits, since their cars are grossly overpriced already? Just wondering......

joe! Did you see this?
Fear of US damaging EU-NATO relations, NATO chief says
----------------
"Some deliberately want to keep NATO and the EU at a distance from one another. For this school of thought, a closer relationship between NATO and the EU means excessive influence for the USA."

"I do not share European instinctive fears about undue influence of the USA in European affairs anyhow. Europe is sufficiently self-aware – and they know it in Washington too," Mr De Hoop Scheffer argued.
--------------

Fuck 'em. Let 'em sink.

You know, I like my Benz. It's just the right size - I like my cars to feel like an extension of my body - and it handles very well. It has some mass. Also, if I maintain it, I can drive it for 10 more years or so. If not more. Not a bad deal.

Hubby's Benz, on the other hand, while newer, is smaller. As far as I'm concerned it's a tin can mounted on a lawn mower and not worth the powder to blow it to hell.

Dear americanofchoice

Nowhere does the article say that the engines are better within the SAME MODEL.
Diesel btw is still not very common in the U.S., it is therefore a lot easier to cut the Grenzwert.
I wonder what the Hummer producer would say if the U.S. told him to cut fuel consumption to 6 liter per 100km or so.

Actually I believe that Americans are getting more used to drive ecologically viable cars which is good.
And these are neither "my" German media nor are they "infallible".

Amelie, I know you aren't German since you would have to change "de" to von , however, have you ever purchased a Mercedes or BMW for export to the US?
I have quite a few times. Don't play with semantics my dear. When the German media says and I know from experience that the cars (engines) are different, don't play amateur attorney and give me the crap that "We don't know if it is the same model". This has been going on for decades.

"This has been going on for decades."

You said it. And not just in regard for emmissions. In the late 70's MB came out with a new 4.5 L V-8 engine, the so-called 117. It later replaced in most cases the 3.5 L V-8 engine, the 116 model. Well, the new 117s were shipped to the US first. MB didn't want Germans to get upset or neidisch about the Americans getting the bigger and better engines first, so those cars were sent out of the factories with "350 S" on the back even though they had 117 engines and should have been badged 450 S. About 14 months later, when production caught up and the 117 was also sold in Germany, these cars got a 450 badge.
There is a long-standing tradition of Etikettenschwindel, for one reason or another.

americanbychoice
"When the German media says and I know from experience that the cars (engines) are different"
Can you come up with any examples of the current models (not diesel cars)?

@QuagmiredinBRD
"What is the average fuel efficiency?"
Average CO2 emissions per passenger car are much higher in the US than in Germany, simply because Americans drive bigger cars with bigger engines. For example the fuel effeicient mercedes benz cars are not even sold yet in the US.

You might want to have a look at this graph:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4773/2076/1600/Gas%20Economy%20Trend%20Lines.2.gif

(source: (ppt presentation, sorry) http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/seminar/docs/2005/ea_seminar_feb_10.ppt)

Pamela,

There is not much to the EU Defense Force. If you stop and think for a moment it really depends on the UK muscle and to a less degree the french. Do you actually think the members of the chocolate summit would contribute anything meaningful to this effort.

The Germans like to talk about how NATO is central to their defense policy all the while along with the french they push for a separate

Back in the late 90’s NATO agreed to the goal of spending 3% of GDP on defense. The US does a few of the eastern European nations do along with Turkey. Germany manages about 1.4%.

As Colin Powell pointed out this new force is a duplication of NATO from a military force perspective. There is not enough money being spend to support NATO much less this force.

What is really comes down too is more ego building by the euros and an effort to protect jobs.

I very much would like to see NATO unwind and for the US to depart. NATO is no longer an alliance but a loose grouping of member states. Look at Afghanistan as an example what you see in reality is a coalition of the willing. Germany is there but surely does not want to be there given how it has refused to do any of the heavy lifting. Yet Germany is going to be one of the key members of this EU defense force. Go figure......LOL

The best reason I have read to date as to why the US remains a member of NATO is that failing to protect the euros, would cause them to work to arm the enemies of the US. There is a lot of truth to this.

@americanofchoice

I would reply but since perfectly polite critical comments are deleted by the blog owner (and nobody seems to have a problem with this) I will not comment any further here.

This was my last post. Goodbye

"What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly- that is the first law of nature." (Voltaire, 1764)

Why in the hell would anyone buy a benz made in Germany and ship it to the USA?

We build them better here. German quality sucks.

Amelie

I have been reading DMK for more than three and a half years and I never once saw a post being deleted only because it expressed a contradicting view. Not once!

The only deleted posts have been the trollish ones. I don't know what happened in this case, but considering your history here your post might have been deleted because it displayed certain trollish characteristics. I believe I noticed in time that David, unlike other bloggers, doesn't have a lot of patience with people who are adamant in spreading their lack of knowledge.

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