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CNN Headline News had something similar that was presented by Glenn Beck. I think that it's in response to the election. Perhaps explaining to the new party that they shouldn't get the wrong idea about the message that was sent? Maybe they should do what the Republicans stopped doing....Talk to the people instead of assuming. To assume makes an ASS out of U and ME, Democrats. Ask the Republicans.

Joke of the day, I'll trust a Republican as far as I can throw a Democrat, and vice versa.

Why are you apologizing for showing something that ran on Fox? I've been watching the U.S. and German media for over twenty years, and in my opinion, though FoxNews may be somewhat biased, they are nevertheless one of the fairest news organizations in the world. Really, who should we trust? Newsweek? Spiegel?

In any event, the video speaks for itself.

@ beimami,

I am addressing an attitude about FoxNews, not apologizing. FoxNews has been repeatedly smeared and attacked in German media. Why? Primarily because those who dominate German media deeply fear the prospect of a powerful FoxNews like news network (pro-US, pro-capitalism, pro-conservative) coming onto the scene and breaking their monopoly of negativity.

Now some folks will read this and say: But look at Springer! They are guided by transatlantic principles and even have that in their mission statement. Unfortunately, that statement is little more than lip service and hardly represents a viable alternative to the vast majority of reporting on the US (or other topics) in Germany. More often than not, Springer-owned publications just follow the herd.

@Ray

Okay, I misinterpreted your statement. And you are absolutely right that the German media deeply fears FoxNews. The introduction of a news source like Fox in Germany would have enormous consequences; 70-80 million people would suddenly be confronted with a little reality, rather than having their paranoid delusions about America constantly reinforced.

Strange assault. They may actually see American conservatives as a greater threat than radical Islam?
Yes, of course. Because it is. The American conservatives are responsible fpr the acts of the conservative US government, which again is guilty of killing at least several tens of thousands of civilians, probably hundreds of thousands, guilty of kidnapping, interrogating and torturing innocent civilians, the use of banned weapons and so on.
The only reasons for these crimes were unethic: power and profit for Bush and his supporters, ideological reasons etc.
There's no difference between >150.000 killed innocent Iraqis and 3000 murdered American civilians - except, of course, the tiny difference in the effiency: Bin Laden just killed a few thousand persons, Bush could kill far more.
That's the reality (not the stupid crap on FoxNews or other news channels about the brave American Hero that saves Americans from being killed by the Evil Muslim or bringing democracy to other peoples), though you may not like it.

Oh, and on the subject: yes, of course we see that stupid crap about the dangerous and strange muslims who want to kill us all (and they hate jews, don't got jobs, attack our children at school, ad infinitum, ad nauseam). Both in right-wing magazines like "Bild" (of which the chief editor is a supporter of extreme right fraternities) and pseudo-liberal newspapers/websites like Spiegel/SPON. And in TV, radio... if you honestly think that german media would be too "politically correct", you a) don't watch german TV or read the newspapers or b) are that right-wing that you think anything more left/liberal than FoxNews is too pc for yourself. If so, you shouldn't consume german media, because even the most right-wing and most stupid media will never use pro-American lies.
Left, liberal or more or less neutral medias are too realistic to do it, and right-wing propaganda in Germany will always use America-bashing because it's the most simple way to make their idiocy acceptable to the broader public.

For those interested in watching Fox News and cannot receive it on cable or dish...download the freeware TVU Player and watch Fox over the internet (broadband highly recommended, and there is no registration required). Now skeptics can see for themselves.

I agree with you, beimami. When it comes to "fair and balanced" I would put Fox News up against any other of the networks. I'm quite happy to be able to watch it in Germany--albeit over the internet.

Kyno,

"pseudo-liberal newspapers/websites like Spiegel/Spon?"

You are wwaaayy out in loony left field, now aren't you.

@ J.W
Might be, but why should that matter. SPON&Spiegel aren't left/liberal. Spiegel was once, but today they're just stupid, polemic, incorrect, biased, pseudo-liberal propaganda magazines (websites) like all the the other I learned to hate.

Kyno,

Might be? You're so far left in loony...that you don't even recognize "left".

Left, liberal or more or less neutral medias are too realistic to do it, and right-wing propaganda in Germany will always use America-bashing because it's the most simple way to make their idiocy acceptable to the broader public.

Please, oh please...I just want to see an example of one of these medias, and an example of how they are more realistic/accurate.

Oh, I get it. You're just pulling my leg.

@ Kyno

So when extremists, whether Shiite, Sunni or others in Iraq kill innocent civilians or rival factions/sects with car bombs, suicide bombs and machine guns, that is also Bush's fault and America's fault? Or is it the fault of the murderers themselves? It seems like the moral-relativists get that one confused quite often...

Oh...BTW: Is it 600,000 - 150,000 or 55,000 civilians killed? It seems like members of the Angry Left pick and choose statistics and moral positions as they see fit. But then again...it's all relative, isn't it?

Here we go again. Believe me, my American friends, "opinions" like Kyno's are not contained in some left-wing idiots. You can hear crap like that about Bush etc. quite often, even from otherwise intelligent people. Why? Because they "know the truth" (after watching our media, of course). Okay, he may be a little more extreme than the mainstream. But not much.

@Mir, It is not just in Germany. I hear it in our town in the USA. And, I read it and see it in our news. (and have seen and heard it in Germany!)
My question, however, is: Are these people ignorant or just stupid?
My favorite example was the Koran flushed down the toliet. I burst out laughing when I read that. OK, I had an advantage. Our next door neighbor's son is a bit strange and a lot slow. Everytime we saw their toliet on the lawn we knew he had tried to flush a book.
My 2nd question is: What will the world be like in 10 to 20 years if the left gets to set the agenda? Just a thought.

For those of you who have seen some of the clips in the videos from the Fox News and CNN specials for the first time, they are just the tip of the iceberg. You can find much more in both videos and text translations at MEMRI:

http://www.memri.org/

jlwb: The difference though is that at least in these times, you in the US still have BOTH sides discussing/arguing about the issues. We have only one side "discussing" it. And it has never been different. I know NOT ONE German outside this or similar boards who would even remotely converge with my positions, or even just appreciate the thought that our media might not tell the complete picture / is biased. Which is a FACT however, what DMK here shows is not made up, and actually you wouldn't need it if you live here but just listen to what American conservatives say/do in reality and how the media spins it. And facts you cannot argue against, unless you are mentally sick or living in denial - which is what Germany is all about. It's how elections are won. It's not about facts it's about who offers the most convenient denial, so that everything can stay as it is and the party can go on. This is true for domestic as well as foreign policy. Denial, envy and "blame the others" is a life-style here, and the best denier is considered the most sophisticated intellectual. This is true for domestic as well as foreign policy. It's no coincidence that Marx and his lot originated from Germany. So naturally, countries who live in reality bother us. And when they do not listen to, or in fact not act according to our sophisticated minds, they must simply be stupid. There you go.

BTW, you can see the denial right here within this micro-cosmos of DMK, when yet another one of German lurkers comes up here and tells us "it's not really like zhat." Make no mistake - he's in all probability one of those who sucks up the very bias, he's denieing here, like sweet honey to use it in another "discussion" in his University. But of course having those you lie about learning about it is inconvenient - so let's deny it here. "It's not really like zhat." Yes it is. And I'm sick of it.

@ Alex N.

At least we have the internet now.

@ jlwb

Many are just unable to "get" the fact, that the MSM is NOT interested in facts or the truth. If they would understand that, *maybe* they would consider spending some time to actually inform themselves.

Actually, Glenn Beck is on CNN, not Fox News.

"Denial, envy and "blame the others" is a life-style here, and the best denier..."

Hmm. Doesn't this sound familiar? Watch the videos above. "Blame the West for all our failures."

@ RayD
"So when extremists, whether Shiite, Sunni or others in Iraq kill innocent civilians ... that is also Bush's fault and America's fault? "

Exactly. The occupying power has the duty to secure peace and order in a country. Each and any person who's killed in a country because of circumstances produced directly or indirectly by the war or the occupants acts during the occupation is the fault of the attacking&occupying country.
If America didn't attack Iraq, there would be no terrorism in Iraq as we see it now. If America would have done its job better, they could live in peace now (though not in freedom beacuse of the Amaerican occupation).
Most Iraqis did live better, more save and even more free before the war started.

"Or is it the fault of the murderers themselves?"

It's their fault, too. But the war made it possible, so the attacking country (USA) is responsible for their acts, too.

"Oh...BTW: Is it 600,000 - 150,000 or 55,000 civilians killed? "

Can't you read? I said: At least several tens of thousands, even according to Bush. And according to at least two studies that were quoted in the media, several hundred thousand (150k/600k). I don't know who credible they are because I'm no expert on the subject, so I used two numbers (min. and max.). That's not "picking and choosing statistics as they fit", it's exactly the opposite method.
My moral positions aren't relevant here, I just reacted to an implied moralistic suggestion (Bin Laden "worse" than Bush) using widespread views of morality ("murder is evil" and a bit utilitarism).

BTW, the extremists in Iraq aren't the only murderers there, the Americans are also directly responsible for several ten thousand deaths in the two wars since 9/11.

I see no difference in the motive: unethic motives in both cases, the WMD-lie has been revealed, there was no Qaida-link etc. And of course America doesn't want a democracy in Iraq as they demonstrated by ignoring the decisions of it's government and forcing it to to what Washington wants, and the US government killed more people than the Qaida, so there's really no reason to assume that Bush would be "better" than Bin Laden.

You can call me "angry left" or loony left or whatever, but that doesn't change the facts.

A few questions:
- Do you deny that at least several 10,000 civilians died in the Iraq-war and during the occupation?
- Do you deny that the motivation of the Bush-admin. was unethic? If so, what was his ethic goal in the war? Securing America? Bringing democracy to Iraq? I deny both possibilities.
- Do you deny the responsibility of the occupying power for the situation in the land it occupies?
- Do you deny that live's less save for the population of Iraq than it was before the war (remember that each day 100 persons die in terrorist attacks currently)?

@ Kyno

"If America didn't attack Iraq, there would be no terrorism in Iraq as we see it now."

Really? You wouldn't call the actions of Saddam Hussein's regime terrorism?

This is not an unusual argument from someone living in a society in which the media barely reported on Saddam's atrocities yet today reports daily on dying in Iraq post-Saddam and basically blames it all on the USA. This is not an unusual argument coming from someone living in a society in which the media have made little effort to distinguish distinguish between dictatorship and democracy in their reporting.

As far as I'm concerned, the people doing the killing are primarily to blame. Your argument would be like saying that the German government is to blame for every murder and crime that takes place in Germany because it is supposed to be "in charge" of the situation. While the German government does have an obligation to fight and prevent crime, it is first and foremost the criminal who is to blame for his crimes. Your argument is an absolutely ludicrous Hate-America mantra.

"BTW, the extremists in Iraq aren't the only murderers there, the Americans are also directly responsible for several ten thousand deaths in the two wars since 9/11."

There is a very clear difference between murder and killing someone during the course of combat in a war. If there were no such distinction, half of Germany's over-70 male population would be behind bars right now.

As far as WMD goes: There is a difference between intentionally lying and acting on bad information. As Jeff Gedmin points out, Fischer and the German government (along with French and Russian intelligence and most of the Democrats) also believed Saddam had WMD and was close to having a nuke. Read this article.

As far as democracy goes: It is awfully strange that the US would help Iraqis draft a constitution, hold elections and form a unity government if it did NOT want there to be a democracy there. If it did not want democracy, why would it have expended the enormous time, money and effort to do those things? (After all, America is a greedy, self-interested nation...right?)

As far as your question goes: Life is safer for some groups in Iraq and less safe for others now that Saddam is gone. Those who have died since the war have largely fallen victim to radical insurgents and militias. It is the responsibility of the US to take action against these groups and the US military is doing so to the best of its ability. They are training an Iraqi police force with great emphasis. Just another reason NOT to pull out prematurely!

I do not think the Bush administration "lied" to go to war. I believe the administration acted on faulty intelligence but also acted based on the long and violent history of the Saddam Hussein regime including Iraq's non-compliance with 17 UN Security Council Resolutions and inspections over a period of 12 years. Additionally, the US removed a regime with the know-how, the money and the intent to reconstitute its WMD programs that was simply waiting and hoping the international community would lose its interest and will to address the Iraqi program. It removed a regime that invaded two neighbors and attacked several others, slaughtered hundreds-of-thousands of its own citizens, some with chemical weapons, and imprisoned, tortured, raped and forced millions more into exile.

Finally, it is interesting to note that while Iraq was under sanctions, the far left was screaming at the top of its lungs about the hundreds-of-thousands of children starving and dying as a result. Where have those concerns gone? The bottom line is this: For people like Kyno (who hate America) the USA can do no right. Kyno and those like him are simply aspiring junior partners of the Death-to-America Islamo-Fascists. It is time we started to treat them as such.

They may actually see American conservatives as a greater threat than radical Islam?
Yes, of course. Because it is. The American conservatives are responsible fpr the acts of the conservative US government, which again is guilty of killing at least several tens of thousands of civilians, probably hundreds of thousands, guilty of kidnapping, interrogating and torturing innocent civilians, the use of banned weapons and so on.

Oh look! A stupid person!

- American conservatives are a greater threat than radical Islam

Well, I sure as hell hope so. American conservatives are the only ones around who are willing to fight radical Islam. You better believe I want to be the biggest fucking threat on the planet.

- The US gov't is guilty of killing (x) thousands of civilians

That there have been (x) thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq that probably would not have occurred had not the U.S. invaded is undoubtedly true. It is also true that there were (x) thousands of civilian deaths in Dresden, Hamburg, Berlin,etc., that would not have occurred had the Allies not bombed the places to rubble. Welcome to war.

- Kidnapping, interrogating, torturing 'innocent civilians'.

Undoubtedly, people are detained and interrogated if they are suspects or thought to be connected to suspects. It's called 'intelligence gathering'. Some are innocent (and released), some - well - not so much. And I'm really tired of the torture meme. Abu Gharib was a one-off.

-Banned weapons

huh?

The only reasons for these crimes were unethic: power and profit for Bush and his supporters, ideological reasons etc.

The only reason for these ACTS OF WAR is because the Islamists declared war on us and on you - on western civilization period.

And, as noted in David's post above ("Germany to NATO: piss off), Germany has no real stomach for the fight. As usual, Europe is content to live and moderately prosper under the American security umbrella, while indulging in moral posturing that is nothing more than a cover for civilizational cowardice.

Pamela,

Propaganda slogans have to be based upon the values of the masses. Imagine slogans in today’s Germany.


Fight For Longer Hour City Trolleys!
Defend Mineral Spa Therapy!
Protect Porn Shops!
Defend Glorious EU And Various Ordnances!
Schroder Phone's In Qualified Support From Home in Rio, Brazil!

..and so forth.

Carl
heh. And let us remember that paragon of moral rectitude, the Prince of Wales, who is ordering his staff to abandon motor vehicles in favor of bicycles. Something about Globular Worming.

@James W.

Thanks for FOX NEWS and the TVU Player!!!
It works great!

"If America didn't attack Iraq, there would be no terrorism in Iraq as we see it now.

Well DUH! Of course not, terrorists rarely commit attrocities where they have sanctuary and training camps do they?

Check out Salmon Pak or thehttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html Division of Special Operation

"What kind of training went on, and who was being trained?

Training is majorly on terrorism. They would be trained on assassinations, kidnapping, hijacking of airplanes, hijacking of buses, public buses, hijacking of trains and all other kinds of operations related to terrorism.

The people being trained were Iraqis in one group, and non-Iraqis, or foreign nationals, in another?

Non-Iraqis were trained separately from us. There were strict orders not to meet with them and not to talk to them. And even when they conduct their training, their training has to occur at times different from the times when we conduct the Iraqis our own training."

"And they trained people to hijack airplanes?

Yes.

For what purpose?

... It has been said openly in the media and even to us, from the highest command, that the purpose of establishing Saddam's fighters is to attack American targets and American interests. This is known. There's no doubt about it.

All this training is directed towards attacking American targets, and American interests. The training does not only include hijacking of planes and sabotage. ... Some other people were trained to do parachuting. Some other areas were training on how to penetrate enemy lines and get information from behind enemy lines. But it's all for the general concept of hitting and attacking American targets and American interests. "

@Kyno: "...the WMD-lie has been revealed..."

THIS crap again. Kyno, in 1991, when Saddam surrendered, the UN demanded an inventory of WMDs that were then presently in Saddam's arsenal. This is the list Saddam came up with in compliance with UNSC Res 687:

• at least 3.9 tons of deadly VX nerve gas, along with 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.

• 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.

• 8,500 liters of anthrax.

• 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.

• 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

• 107,500 casings for chemical weapons.

• 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.

• 25 missile warheads containing germ agents, including anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum.

These are the things SADDAM SAID he had.

To date, 122 chemical-loaded warheads have been found, accounting for 122 of the 107,500 casings listed above, and some of the chemicals.

[b]ALL of the remainder is still missing.[/b]

WHERE IS IT?

All of this crap is still at large somewhere in the Middle East. Don't you think it's about time we stopped grumbling about the "WMD lies" and started a serious SEARCH for this stuff?

@gabi

I'm glad to have helped.

Great stocking stuffer! Burn it to disc.

Or better yet...alter the TVU Player code so that it only receives FOX NEWS. Send it as a virus or worm to those deserving of such a great gift. "Help!!! My computer's been invaded by some guy named Bill O'reilly!" ;-)

Actually, it's a plot by Karl Rove to broadcast (gasp!) FOX NEWS into countries where it cannot be seen by other means. Are you listening Kyno?

Kyno? Hello?
tap tap tap

Is this thing on?

;-)

Don't expect to see anything like this in German media.
Replying late. You seem to have missed "Die Fremden im Paradies" running on either BR, NDR, arte or phoenix

Pamela... it appears that Kyno has done a hit-and-run here. I guess he figured he'd be able to debate us "dumb neocons" into the ground and not have to answer for anything he said.

LOVED your comment about American conservatism being more dangerous than the jihadis! I agree... no one is going to "respect" us in the world of the pointy-headed liberal, so they may as well fear us. Let them waste their energy worrying about us... it keeps their little minds occupied :).


Yes, blue. And this is of course the MAIN STREAM MEDIA we are talking about here. Sure. And it prolly was also sheduled on times every German would watch. And it surely was giving the same emphazise on both sides of the coin. Sure. Hell, even I did miss it. Though, admittedly, this might be connected to the fact that I don't give a fuck about watching our media AT ALL anymore, because it just is one-sided BULLSHIT 90% of the time.

The matter this site discusses here is the general perception the German public gets, which - thanks to our IMPOTENT and NON-EXISTING discussion culture (hint: leftists discussing issues with leftists or coward "conservatives" clothed in red suits is no real discussion) - is broadly propagated amongst people via the major news television sets like ARD "Tageschau" or ZDF "Heute" news broadcasts. And unless you are dishonest, you are perfectly aware that those sources, which broadcast the news during the prime news-cast time in Germany, short before the evening movies start at 8:15 PM, are also those who are considered as perfect and un-biased news sources here amongst German citizens, while this site has repeatedly pointed out and PROVED they are NOT, and everyone could come up with the same conclusion if he would just CHECK THE FACTS. But who does do that? NO ONE IN GERMANY THAT I KNOW.
They are the same fuckers still who sucked up Goebbels, and they are now sucking up Bullshit again. Because they WANT it. Because the NEED it. Because they are not interested in getting things settled, but they are interested in finding out who they can blame for their own fucking incompetence. Because it must not be themselves and their own stupid heads. We are sophisticated, don't forget. Sophisticated enought to start TWO world wars and loose them both big time. That's sophistication for you. Everyone should look up at us, and learn from us, because we lived a dictatorship. This is the ACTUAL logic of most people here, but *I* wonder WHAT THE FUCK? How does this make sense? Because it was not even ourselves who freed us from the dictatorship we brought upon ourselves by our own will. SO TELL ME HOW DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT WE COULD TEACH ANYONE ABOUT IT?
But, as it is, it's like "How dare them stupid cowboys down in Texas want to talk to us. We are OH SO SMART. We are GERMAN." Yeah. "Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen." I hope not. And yes. I'm no longer German. I might have been born here, but that's about it. Nothing else do I reckon I have in common, and meanwhile I feel like I'd be damned if I had.

@Pamela
"Oh look! A stupid person!

- American conservatives are a greater threat than radical Islam

Well, I sure as hell hope so. American conservatives are the only ones around who are willing to fight radical Islam. You better believe I want to be the biggest fucking threat on the planet."

Thank you for giving us a good laugh! I sent this over to my son in Iraq (yep, one of those mudering soldiers....heck, he can kill people a 100 different ways with his bare hands and don't even ask what he can do with his MLRS :-) He burst out laughing! He and his brothers and sisters in arms are the "meanest mother f** in the valley" :-) Thank goodness they are! In between being that, they build schools and teach children. They, for the Loony left here, are parents, and husbands and wives and unlike you.....they can and will defend our country.

@ Alex N.
I have a dozen host kids....Germans...you are not alone. There are many of you that think and listen and search for the facts. Most are quiet about their views. But, you are not alone.

@Alex N
kids = 18 to 28 yeas old...just so you don't think they are little ones (yea, they were 16 when they started coming to live with us....but...they grow!)

As a side remark, before you folks try to "dismiss" my remarks as "antiamerican": Of course there IS truth in the videos. After all these speeches and acts did happen. And indeed one would be a fool not to think about and act upon it.
I have a problem with this entry for other reasons.

"Endnote: We know that some of our politically correct friends out there will dismiss us for showing something from FoxNews. They may actually see FoxNews and American conservatives as a greater threat to the world than radical Islam. F**k em. This is too important not to show. It's time to face reality."
Really, its time to face reality. Been doing this for years already. And you ?
I have no problem with you showing something from FoxNews. Doesn't matter to me. Fox is as good or as bad as others. The quality often depends on ones ability to percept.
But what you showed hardly meets the criteria for serious media.
These two videos above (haven't looked at the third) are comparable in style and quality to my all time favorite (this was meant ironically) "Frontal 21" or "Panorama" in Germany.

Some music to stir up the emotions and add some drama, pretty direct, one sided "reporting" of a message that you wish to convey without proper embedding in the context.
Along with the nice and political "one liner" that not all muslims are bad and the majority is this and that BUT ...

You call that reality ?

I call it a show. The same show that you find here when it comes to reporting about the usa. Even the same style of music and pseudointerviews. And its not better !

This was another day where you did what you accuse others of. Using "unserious reporting"

@ Alex N.

Just to let you know: You are not alone with these thoughts.

@ jlwb

And to let you know: There are people in Germany who understand the stakes in this great conflict. Maybe you can let your son know that we are grateful for his service not only to his country, but to the whole free world. (Although one has to ask if we in old Europe even deserve it.)

jlwb

You send that boy of yours my heartfelt thanks and tell him I pray for him every day.

Oh, tell him to please - when he's not building schools and stuff - keep killing the bad guys. Lots of 'em.

But what you showed hardly meets the criteria for serious media

Deist

I saw the entire documentary on Fox. It's basically made up of three different components:

1. Video footage of different Muslim clerics preaching hatred and murder.
2. Inteviews with experts.
3. Interviews with Muslims who used to be terrorists or used to have ties with terrorists.

From all those three, you can say that no. 2 - interviews with experts - can be biased and therefore not reliable. I would agree. However, no. 1 and 3 are nothing but raw facts, they can not be interpreted in any way. I don't see how you can consider those not "serious".

one sided "reporting" of a message that you wish to convey without proper embedding in the context

I am not sure what you mean with this, so I will only speculate.

Do you mean that the documentary should explain the "root causes", should help viewers understand why terrorists kill innocent civilians? If that's what you mean, then you won't accept no. 1 and 3 either. But then you won't accept reality either, in spite of your claims.

@Alex N.
And yes. I'm no longer German. I might have been born here, but that's about it. Nothing else do I reckon I have in common, and meanwhile I feel like I'd be damned if I had.

Don't do that. Don't go there. What you are indulging in is the collectivisation of guilt. That is exactly the bet noir of what led Germany down the road to perdition.

There are relatively few Germans alive today who lived 'then'. Let the Germans who were later-born guilt-free stay guilt free.

Would you tarnish me, as an American, born in 1952 with the sin of slavery?

Let it go.


@Pamela,
Don't be so hard on alex.
I too was born and raised in Germany. I also spent a total of 16 years in that country as European Director for my Company.
One thing I personally can't stand is being questioned whether or not I am a "Hyphenated American".
No, I am not. I beliee that I pledged allegiance to the USA of my own free will as an American by choice.
I do read many German papers on a dily basis and use this to get my blood preesure up :).

Diest,

When your reality comes, I for one hope you enjoy it.

Diest... the quality of the programs isn't the right question. The right question is, "Why is there ANY of this going on ANYwhere?"

There is no excuse for the hatred being preached from the pulpits of the "holy". I can't think of any other religion in the entire world that has extremists who advocate murder as a method of getting to "Paradise".


@mir
"And to let you know: There are people in Germany who understand the stakes in this great conflict"
I know! Some are my host kids. Others are their parents. Some are my friends who happen to be German. Some started out with no basis other than the German media, but, have learned to read the Washington Times AND the Washington Post, The New York Times AND the New York Post.....and then go back to the orginal source.
David and Ray provide a very great service with this blog. They give us a place to discuss, argue, pick apart articles and learn about each other. If I did not like those Germans I have become friends with and my host kids that I adore (and I make no bones with anyone that I'm conservative) I would ignore what is in the German media.
Thank all who expressed support for my son. He knows what he is doing and he has always been not only a knight, in the best sense of the word, but he is also, the meanest mother in the valley.

@WhatDoIKnow
"I saw the entire documentary on Fox. It's basically made up of three different components:
From all those three, you can say that no. 2 - interviews with experts - can be biased and therefore not reliable. I would agree. However, no. 1 and 3 are nothing but raw facts, they can not be interpreted in any way. I don't see how you can consider those not "serious".
"
I don't agree here. I think all three are based on facts or perception thereof. I think we agree (at least i hope we do) that the threat IS real, and it exists. Of course those preachers exist and they say what was shown in the show. And of course those experts exist and their OPINION is valid. Also your number 3 exists and also their opinions are valid OPINIONS. My point is not so much about the "facts" that fox aired but rather the way they did it.

I can (and many do) make a wonderful story about some strange conspiracy of the west against the islamic world based on interviews of hardliners, video clips anf former (now government critical) cia agents. And then i claim the radical west is dangerous. I might add as a last (and very small) remark, that not all the west is like this. And i embedd all that in nice music, songs of heroism or depair etc. Actually THAT is exactly what happens in the arab media and it works perfectly well to make people hate the west.
Now the funny thing is that you "had to" call these things facts as well with a little bit of "interpretation" when it comes to the interviews perhaps.

However my best guess is that you wouldnt do that (and rightly so !). I guess you would want to emphasize the misrepresentation of facts, the mentioning of things out of proportion or the intentional arrangement or ommition of other facts.

If so then you might already be able to crasp my point of critique. My claim is simply that the quality of that show is at about the same level as your daily "aljazeera-lets talk about the west" show.

For me "serious" media doesnt air a "show" with "ambience music". It doesnt present you with small snipplets of text, film, interviews but rather embedds that in a longer discussion. In other words: serious media is NOT "Bowling for Columbine" !
You see i can quote almost anybody in any way i want if i only pick the fitting statements regardless of the time i made the interview or simply ignoring other statements. Michael Moore does that, Arabs do that, in this case Fox did it.

Again let me stress that i do not at all dispute the threat of radical islam and hate preachers. Not even for a second !!

All i criticize is this way of "presenting" it.

"Do you mean that the documentary should explain the "root causes", should help viewers understand why terrorists kill innocent civilians?"
No. I know why they do that and i know the root causes. What i mean is that a DOCUMENTARY should include an objective assessment of the whole situation including the relation of radical and nonradical muslims. It should provide me with the possibility to estimate the real proportions of danger, it should include some debates with different opinions (clearly marked as opinions) and arguments so i can make my own judgment. It should NOT use music to "emphasize" something !
It should not simply be a musical-drama with the message "hey, radical islam is dangerous, radicals want to kill us"
First of all i can see that without the show, secondly it doesnt give me any qualitative means to assess the situation (correct english?)

I expect information, not "entertaining make-you-afraid-shows".

Again: Its NOT about their assessment of radical islam! I agree that radical islam is a danger and wants to exterminate all those they see as enemies. Telling this to someone however is like telling him that grass is green ! Its obvious ! But this show was not made to simply tel you the obvious. So what was it made for ?

@joe:
I guess there is always someone who has to make some childish remark, isnt there ?

@LC Mamapajamas (slightly rearranged):
"There is no excuse for the hatred being preached from the pulpits of the "holy"."
Of course not. (No, there is no "but")

"Diest... the quality of the programs isn't the right question."
I do not think that there has to be "a right" question. There are most often many questions. I asked the one that appeared to be the right one when it comes to claims about the "seriosity" of media. One of the topics of this blog. That doesnt mean other questions are wrong. It simply struck me as odd to see a video here in exactly the same style that this blog would (and rightly so !) condemn if aired in german media, or arab media.

"The right question is, "Why is there ANY of this going on ANYwhere?""
I answered that for myself already long ago.

"I can't think of any other religion in the entire world that has extremists who advocate murder as a method of getting to "Paradise"."
At the moment, I find it hard to find another religion too.

Deist

All you are saying is that:

My claim is simply that the quality of that show is at about the same level as your daily "aljazeera-lets talk about the west" show.

That's basically all you're saying, you wasted time writing all the other stuff.

I can't believe you make such an outrageous claim. I am really shocked (I guess I should have known better after reading all sorts of comments on DMK in the last years). But now I can see why for you this Fox documentary is not "serious".

There is a H.U.G.E. and unsurmountable difference between this documentary and any aljazeera piece of crap about Western imperialism. And do you know what is the one single process which will tell you the difference between the two? It is called "reason". With this I mean healthy reason, not jihadist reason.

Leaving aside the music that you don't like in the Fox documentary, when you watch it, see what happens in the world and apply healthy reason, the documentary is spot on. There is absolutely no exageration. It is NOT a documentary about the Muslim world - radical and moderate - it is a documentary about terrorism alone. As such it is very accurate and it is supported by facts.

OTOH, if you watch an aljazeera "documentary" about Western imperialism, see what happens in the world, apply healthy reason and then claim that it was just like the Fox documentary, you are most definitely not healthy.

Europeans are supposed to be "deep thinkers", yet you get stuck on the music and the presentation. The message couldn't be more accurate, but you don't like... the music. And because you don't like the music, it's just like aljazeera... In what parallel universe did aljazeera ever produce a documentary based on facts? I bet even a M. Moore "documentary" has more facts in it than aljazeera could come up with in one year.

Only a person with a distorted sense of reality can make a claim such as yours.

@WhatDoIKnow
And do you know what is the one single process which will tell you the difference between the two? It is called "reason". With this I mean healthy reason, not jihadist reason.

This is for you. Happy Thanksgiving.

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature.

Pope Ben

Pamela

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

I swear this wasn't plagiarism :-) I realized afterwards that "I sound like the Pope".

He did make a lot of sense, didn't he? Unfortunately, not only in the Muslim world, but also in this part of the world is true "reason" a rare occurence.

Deist,

Reality is something you have to define for yourself. I am ambivlant as to your definition. I am sure it is not one I would share.

@WhatDoIKnow

"That's basically all you're saying, you wasted time writing all the other stuff."
I do not believe that someone can waste time ;-)
I do write "longer" texts yes. A "quirk" of mine.

"But now I can see why for you this Fox documentary is not "serious"."
I am not really sure you did because in your following text you seem to want me to cast out all aspects that i criticize and then judge again. You simply ignore that i already agreed to the message "radical islam is dangerous". I wonder why you so vehemently do that.

"There is a H.U.G.E. and unsurmountable difference between this documentary and any aljazeera piece of crap about Western imperialism. And do you know what is the one single process which will tell you the difference between the two? It is called "reason". With this I mean healthy reason, not jihadist reason."
A nice statement but from an objective view its not really good.
You define YOUR view as healthy, theirs as unhealthy and that was that. Your view is reasonable, theirs per se never.
I again want to emphasize (just to make that again clear) that i DO agree with you that aljazeeras shows are often crap !
The point is that i also state that THIS piece of fox was crap too.
And the "reasoning" of this show is far from "healthy"...
Have a look ... in order to "make" it healthy you already start by altering the show...
"Leaving aside the music that you don't like...."
NO i WONT do that. Because it is exactly a part of the "documentary" that i criticize !
Its exactly one point that makes this "documentary" a show instead of an objective and "reasonable" report.

" in the Fox documentary, when you watch it, see what happens in the world and apply healthy reason, the documentary is spot on."
Is it ?
In what aspect ? Telling me that "radical islam" is a threat ? I know that. You know that. I guess everybody with a brain knows it. Do you really need a "documentary" to tell you that ?
Its already embedded in the very term "radical".
Almost nobody on this planet is stupid enough not to know that fanatical religious fools are a danger.

"There is absolutely no exageration."
Of course not. The failure is not that they claim too much about radicals. The failure is the ommission of a bigger picture.
You see the sentence to which it all boils down might be your following one:
"It is NOT a documentary about the Muslim world - radical and moderate - it is a documentary about terrorism alone. As such it is very accurate and it is supported by facts."
No its not about the muslim world. Indeed it appears to simply be a "radical islam is a danger".
Now forgive me for being blunt but what kind of a stupid nerd does someone have to be to need THAT info in order to know that ?
I simply cant believe that YOU wouldnt know about the dangers of radical islam without that "documentary".
And i simply cant believe that YOU found so much extra evidence and knowledge in that "documentary".
Could you please tell me what extra quality info you got from that "documentary" ?

Now to the seriosity.
I do not expect people to tell me the obvious.
If they do then they should do it objectively.
This is not the case.
You seem to wonder why i dislike music. The reason is pretty simple: i have seen hundrets of propaganda films in the arab world. They work the same way. Quote some experts, present some clips, stir up emotions and add smoe ambience. Your claim that this is "healthy" reasoning and the other one is not is in my view wrong. Not because of the reasoning but rather because those shows are not ment to let you reason !
What would reasoning here really include ?
It would mean to assess the situation. That radical islam is a threat is (i say it again) obvious. The question is not if but rather "how much" or "in what context" or "how does it relate to the arab world".
I need information about how radical islam relates to the muslim world as a whole. For that i need a more global picture, more information, more discussino and debates along with such nice things as "arguments".
Is that given here ? My view : no !

"OTOH, if you watch an aljazeera "documentary" about Western imperialism, see what happens in the world, apply healthy reason and then claim that it was just like the Fox documentary, you are most definitely not healthy."
I feel well thank you. And i stay with my opinion.

"Europeans are supposed to be "deep thinkers", yet you get stuck on the music and the presentation."
Europeans are a bunch of arrogant "i have culture and americans are stupid"-thinkers. This makes them (europeans) quite foolish in my view.
Mostly they (we) are so embedded in the feeling of cultural superiority and idealism that it smells like year old shit.
And frankly europeans normally do exactly that what you seem to defend. They prefer presentation above facts.
For me it is (as far as my arrogant nose allows) the exact opposite. I like classical anglo-saxxon journalism. Facts, Information, Objective. No interpretation and no mood.

"The message couldn't be more accurate, but you don't like... the music."
Yep. I dont like the music. You seem to forget that i dont disagree with the obvious facts. You seem to forget that i (right from the start) criticized the presentation and not the obvious facts.
Because i believe that there is MORE to it in the end than the simply one liner about radical islam.

"And because you don't like the music, it's just like aljazeera..."
Please .. you spoke about "healthy" reasoning. And now you make such really miserably deductions ?
Its like al jazeera because al jazeera uses the same style.
And it is in that aspect like al jazeera. And like many other media including german ones.
That IS a fact. You want to avoid it by emphasizing other aspects, but the truth simply is that my statement was and still is dead on.

"In what parallel universe did aljazeera ever produce a documentary based on facts?"
Every "good" story that is meant to convey a message (no matter how true that message is) is based on some facts. Its mostly a question on what you omit and how you present it. Apply some reasoning and you will perhaps agree here.

"I bet even a M. Moore "documentary" has more facts in it than aljazeera could come up with in one year."
You would loose that one. I wonder if you ever watched al jazeera (and others). I do almost daily. And i would bet you DON'T. For someone who doesnt you make a long list of claims.

"Only a person with a distorted sense of reality can make a claim such as yours."
You almost sound european here !
A wise man once said:"When they start insulting you, they lost the argument"

I guess it is better to leave this discussion as long as it is a discussion. I you want to continue in a fair manner just mail me at deist_2000ADDyahooDOTcom.

@joe:
"Reality is something you have to define for yourself. I am ambivlant as to your definition. I am sure it is not one I would share."
I always wonder how people can be sure about something they dont even know about. Makes me afraid.

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