No doubt, Bush is behind this...

Instapundit:

November 20, 2006

I BLAME GERMANY'S LAX GUN LAWS AND COWBOY CULTURE: Gunman storms school, dies. "Those killings prompted a wave of German soul searching about violence and school security, coming just months after another gunman had walked into a school and shot dead his former headteacher."

More here.

Comments

[Jorg-AtlanticReview]

Is the Instapundit quote cynicism, satire or Schadenfreude?

What killings? No student or teacher got killed today. Injuries are bad enough, though.

Anybody have some statistics to compare the number of school shootings in the US and Germany:

Murders per 1.000.000 inhabitants: In the US: 56,3. In Germany: 9,7. That means the murder rate is nearly six times higher in the US than in Germany.

Instapundit can't blame GERMANY'S LAX GUN LAWS AND COWBOY CULTURE. Well, our cowboy culture is shaped by Karl May heros, who like Old Shatterhand avoid shootings, and shaped by "Schuh des Manitu." ;-)

[LC Mamapajamas]

Jorg, I've got a funny attitude about gang-bangers. When punks want to kill each other, I say, "Let them." It keeps them out of the system and out of my pockets.

The overwhelming majority of murders in the US are done by gang-bangers of whatever ethnic groups. Sometimes it's different ethnic groups fighting each other, but most often the same ethnic groups killing themselves.

If they've got nothing better to do with their time and can't see the immorality of their lives, let them kill each other.

Personally, I'd be all for stranding the lot of them on a deserted island and letting them shoot all they want. That way innocents wouldn't get caught up in the crossfire.

[beimami]

Jorg, how about breaking down the U.S. numbers by ethnicity or maybe correcting for the influence of ethnic heterogeneity?

Moreover, you are discounting the effect of rare events. Average the rate of violent death in Europe and the U.S. over the last century and see what you come up with.

That said, you do have a point regarding the "Cowboy Culture", a term with which Europeans try to denigrate the American ideals of individualism and freedom (more compensation for their chronic inferiority complex). When the day comes that some group of Islamofacist clowns tries to force Americans to pray to Allah five times a day or to force our daughters to wear a bhurqa, they will meet a violent end. Europeans, on the other hand, will capitulate.

[George M]

Sorry Joerg...Abseits, or in American speak, "illegal procedure, 5 yard penalty."

I read the PDF that you cited. The German BKA statistics treats murders different from voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. Most U.S. police combine these three categories into one statistic: homicides.

The German BKA statistics show that for every murder, there are two manslaughter cases. Instead of 750 murders nationwide, Germany has close to 3,000 homicides every year. Do the math....Germany has close to 35 homicides per one hundred thousand....closer to the U.S. statistic of 56 per thousand. Given cultural differences and the fact that many homicides are committed by illegal aliens, there is not that much difference.

[T_R]

"Given cultural differences and the fact that many homicides are committed by illegal aliens, there is not that much difference."

@George
Can you please provide some sources to back this up?

[beimami]

@T R

I don't know if the number of murders committed by illegal aliens is significant, but you should be able to find the answer at the U.S. Dept. of Justice website. They make extensive information freely available to the public. If anyone knows of a similar 'free' online source for Germany, I would be interested in knowing where it is.

George M makes an excellent point about the murder in Germany. German jurists have told me that it is just about impossible to commit first degree murder in Germany. I suspect then that the hurdle for second degree murder is also higher than it is in the U.S.

[George M]

@TR

"Can you please provide some sources to back this up?"

Just to a Google search, using "illegal alien" and "murder. You will get numerous hits. Here are some bullets from one of the articles I googled:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Good luck finding any reference to such facts in official crime analysis. The LAPD and the L.A. city attorney recently requested an injunction against drug trafficking in Hollywood, targeting the 18th Street Gang and the “non–gang members” who sell drugs in Hollywood for the gang. Those non–gang members are virtually all illegal Mexicans, smuggled into the country by a ring organized by 18th Street bigs. The Mexicans pay off their transportation debts to the gang by selling drugs; many soon realize how lucrative that line of work is and stay in the business.

This article dealt only with California. There is an illegal alien crime pandemic throughout the U.S.: not just the border states.

[George M]

Geisterfahrer:

I wonder if the BKA statistics include people in Germany that were killed by Geisterfahrer. Maybe because Germany does not have laws that favor gun ownership, Germans must be creative when they commit suicide. One of the more ingenious ways that they have invented is driving on the Autobahn in the opposite direction. These drivers are called "ghost drivers" or Geisterfahrer. They sometimes take out unwilling victims when they crash their cars head on, driving 200 Km per hour. Here are a list of Geisterfahrer from recent SPON articles:

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 07.11.2006 (854 Zeichen)
Betrunken am Steuer : Geisterfahrer fährt 20 Kilometer auf Gegenspur
Es grenzt an ein Wunder, dass da nicht mehr passiert ist: Ein völlig betrunkener Geisterfahrer fuhr rund 20 Kilometer in die falsche Richtung, bevor die Polizei ihn stellte. Der Mann widersetzte sich der Verhaftung - und war zu stark alkoholisiert für einen Alkoholtest. mehr...

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 17.05.2006 (969 Zeichen)
Österreich : Neues Verkehrsschild warnt vor Geisterfahrern
Mit einem ungewöhnlichen Hinweis werden Autofahrer in Österreich konfrontiert: Ein neues Verkehrszeichen auf Autobahnen soll vor Geisterfahrern warnen. Das Motiv wurde in einem Bürgerwettbewerb ausgewählt. mehr...

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 17.05.2006 (4075 Zeichen)
Von Florian Harms
Unfallgefahr : Der gefühlte Geisterfahrer
"Achtung, auf der Autobahn XY kommt ihnen ein Falschfahrer entgegen!" - Viele Autofahrer meinen, diese Radio-Warnung in Süddeutschland häufiger zu hören als im Norden. Sind im Süden der Republik mehr Geisterfahrer unterwegs? mehr...

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 13.05.2006 (2526 Zeichen)
Kritik an Koalition : Westerwelle ruft zu Widerstand gegen Steuererhöhungen auf
FDP-Chef Guido Westerwelle hat der Großen Koalition den Kampf angesagt. Auf dem Parteitag in Rostock rief er die Bürger zum Widerstand gegen die vom Kabinett beschlossenen Steuererhöhungen auf.

DER SPIEGEL (18/2006) - 29.04.2006 (5212 Zeichen)
EINE MELDUNG UND IHRE GESCHICHTE : Der Geisterfahrer
Warum ein Vietnamese für seine eigene Hinrichtung stritt

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 17.03.2006 (936 Zeichen)
Irrfahrt : Geisterfahrerin meldet der Polizei Falschfahrer
Ein Witz wird Realität: Eine Österreicherin hat der Polizei völlig erschrocken jede Menge Geisterfahrer auf ihrer Autobahn gemeldet. Die Beamten forderten die verirrte Frau auf, sofort zu stoppen - sie waren wegen einer Falschfahrerin bereits alarmiert worden. mehr...

SPIEGEL ONLINE - 13.02.2006 (1588 Zeichen)
Geisternder Greis : 70 Kilometer auf der falschen Spur
Ein 82-jähriger Geisterfahrer sorgte am Morgen auf der A1 zwischen Hamburg und Lübeck für Aufregung. Er blinkte entgegenkommende Autos an und ließ sich auch durch Martinshorn und Blaulicht der Polizei nicht beirren. Zehn Streifenwagen waren nötig, um ihn zu stoppen. mehr...

[Scott_H]

Well, at least we know Dubya isn't the culprit, this time. It's video games. Apparently, this "man" was seen playing "violent" video games in the past and someone has implicated them in his behavior yesterday. Ironically, he was supposed to show up in court yesterday to answer to weapons violations charges.

German legislators wasted no time in calling for a ban on violent video games -- which, incidently, have been banned in Bavaria since 2002.

As an aside, many folks would probably be surprised to learn that it's not really that difficult to legally possess rifles and handguns in Germany. It takes longer to get the required permits than it does in the US, but it's fairly easy to do. In a way, it's not unlike getting a German driver's license -- it takes a while and it's expensive, but it's not really that difficult.

[Jorg-AtlanticReview]

@ George M

The German BKA statistics show that for every murder, there are two manslaughter cases. Instead of 750 murders nationwide, Germany has close to 3,000 homicides every year. Do the math....Germany has close to 35 homicides per one hundred thousand....closer to the U.S. statistic of 56 per thousand.

Do the math 35 homicides and manslaughters per one hundred thousand in Germany is much much less than 56 murders per one hundred thousand in the US.

Do you know how many manslaughters there are in the US? For a proper comparison, one should include the manslaughters in the US as well and not just in Germany.

Given cultural differences and the fact that many homicides are committed by illegal aliens, there is not that much difference.

What do you mean by cultural difference? Are you saying that American culture is more violent and they accept a higher murder rate?

Now you blame it on illegal aliens. Are you saying that you got a problem with immigrants?
Most folks in the comments section here seem to think that it is Germany rather than the US that is in trouble regarding immigration? I guess they would also blame murders in Germany on illegal aliens.

Why is the US murder rate so high? Is your police soft on crime?

There is not any country in the Western world with a higher murder rate than the US.

Re: Geisterfahrer: How many Geisterfahrer are there in the US?

Not about Geisterfahrer, but road accidents in general:
"According to provisional results of the Federal Statistical Office, the police registered about 184,700 road traffic accidents in September 2006, which was a decline of 2.3% on September 2005. While the number of accidents involving only material damage dropped 2.8% to 151,500, the number of accidents involving personal injury showed a slight increase by 0.1% to 33,200. In these accidents, 508 people were killed, which was three persons less than in the corresponding month of the preceding year."
http://www.destatis.de/presse/englisch/pm2006/p4860191.htm

[neocon]

Jorg
"Now you blame it on illegal aliens. Are you saying that you got a problem with immigrants?"

No, he doesn't, but he does have a problem with illegal immigrants.
Or "undocumented workers" (yes, this is like some workers who forgot their ID at home)
This is the favourite phrase of the M$M (and of US-bashers, for that matter): "US is a land of immigrants", "how can they be against immigrants", etc.
It's ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, DAMN IT!!!

[neocon]

ok, sorry, I lost my temper and it was about something else.
sorry again (I get through the roof when i hear "you are against immigrants", I just can't help it)

[George M]

@Joerg

"Do you know how many manslaughters there are in the US? For a proper comparison, one should include the manslaughters in the US as well and not just in Germany."

Yes I do! I found this site by doing a simple google search: It defines homicide as described below

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

__________________________________________________________________________
Definition
The Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines murder and nonnegligent manslaughter as the willful (nonnegligent) killing of one human being by another.

The classification of this offense is based solely on police investigation as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body. The UCR Program does not include the following situations in this offense classification: deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder or assaults to murder, which are scored as aggravated assaults.

Trend
Year Number of offenses Rate per 100,000 inhabitants
2003 16,528 5.7
2004 16,137 5.5
Percent change -2.4 -3.3

_______________________________________________________________________________
The 16,137 figure closely resembles your murder figure lifted from the Guardian.

Since you are an educated fellow, I'll explain to you why the police use the term "homicide" rather than murder or manslaughter. It is the task of the police to determine whether a person has died from other than natural causes. It is up to the judicial system to charge the crime, if a crime has been committed. It is not up to police officials to determine whether the crime is murder or manslaughter.

I'm at work, and I have to get back to my regular business. I'll rebut the rest of your rebuttal some other time!

[kid charlemagne]

You wouldn't know it from watching Michael Moore's "Bowling from Columbine", but about half of the homicides in the U.S. involve Black people killing other Black people, although African-Americans make up only 13% of the total U.S. population. I just thought I'd throw that out for people wondering about violent crime in America. I got the statistic from this page: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

[joe]

What Jorg did not tell you is it much safer to be in the German army deployed or otherwise than it is to be walking around Germany.

[Fred H]

If there really is such a thing as the "German Cowboy Culture", then it has been shaped largely by ITALIAN western movies(spaghetti westerns), such as the German favorite "Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod"(Once Upon a Time in the West), - not exactly very accurate or admirable depictions of cowboys.

[Jorg-AtlanticReview]

@ kid charlemagne
"half of the homicides in the U.S. involve Black people killing other Black people"

Ah, it's okay then. It is only blacks that does not count, I guess.

Likewise George M pointed to murders among illegal aliens. I guess that does not count as well.

Nevermind that all these murders happen in America, which is so proud of it's law and order system and the best police force in the world. Nevermind that you guys make fun of Europe being soft on crime etc.

If you do not count the murders in the black and illegal alien communities, then we should also subtract such murders from the German statistics...

Even if you take George M's numbers, the homicide rate is much much higher in the US than in Germany. There are 21 homicides more in America than in Germany per hundred thousand citizens.

Okay, let's follow kid charlemagne's racist (?) thinking and ignore black Americans, because black Americans do not count for him. You have linked to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm which tells us the homicide rate per 100,000. If you click on the D next to the graphic that you get to a page that explains the graphic: For whites, the homicide offending rate is 3.3 in 2004.

Germany's homicide rate per 100,000 in 2005 (combining 794 murders and 1602 manslaugther -including Tötung auf Verlangen) was 2,9 i.e. significantly lower. This rate includes everybody in Germany: Blacks, Whites, Illegals, Travellers etc. It even includes assisted suicides (Tötung auf Verlangen).
http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2005/p_3_01.pdf

The US number of 3,3 is only for white Americans and excludes all other races and justifiable homicide: "Homicide as defined here includes murder and nonnegligent manslaughter which is the willful killing of one human being by another. The general analyses excluded deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder. "
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/addinfo.htm

The German number of 2,9 includes assistant suicide and might include homicides caused by negligence etc.

So, yes, if you exclude Black Americans the difference is not huge, but the German rate is still much lower. Besides, Black Americans are Americans. The high murder rate among Black Americans should be of concern.

When I read the comments here, then I get the impression that many of you guys think Germany has a problem if illegal immigrants and legal Muslim immigrants. And that Germany is soft on crime etc. Fact is that America has much bigger problems with violent crime.

Fact is that the homicide rate is much much higher in the US than in any other Western country. Why is that so?

[WhatDoIKnow]

Jorg

I noticed something interesting. When you have no arguments you leave a discussion in the middle of it without any explanation (you should know what I mean). When you feel that facts are on your side, your argumentative zeal is unstoppable. It's like drive-by shooting, if you hit the bulleyes it's great, if not, you're out of here. Well, to each his own...

Having said that, I don't know if someone really denies that homicide rate is higher in the US that in other Western countries. At least I always assumed it is, and I made the choice of living here being aware of that.

Who knows why that is so? I can only speculate, but maybe it has something to do with the fact that America was established to a great extent with the help of firearms. Whether it was against Indians or against marauding bands, guns were always used in defending one's property (or in establishing a new property). Firearms were widespread in 19th century America amongst the population, but virtually non-existent in Europe at the same time. (In Europe the monopoly on violence belonged to the state or noblemen). The high homicide rate in today's America is maybe a distorted reminiscence of the otherwise positive "gun culture" of early America. As I said, this is only speculation.

[Buckeye Abroad]

@Jorg

"Fact is that the homicide rate is much much higher in the US than in any other Western country. Why is that so?"

COUNTRY PER 100,000 for 2003
(1) Colombia 63
(2) South Africa 51
(3) Jamaica 32
(4) Venezuela 32
(5) Russia 19
(6) Mexico 13
(7) Lithuania 10
(8) Estonia 10
(9) Latvia 10
(10) Belarus 9

"I Fact is that America has much bigger problems with violent crime."

You are twice as likely to get raped, mugged or assaulted in the UK than the US. Your home is x6 more likely to get robbed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1786945,00.html

I won't bore you with my law enforcement experience and studies in criminology, but alot of what you heard, read or saw on Euro TV regarding America crime vs E-utopia is bunk. Info-tainment reinforcing what you have been repeadtedly "informed" without facts to back it up.

Germany does have a problem, but you are pressed to find any open discussion about it in the media.

For example:
Nach dem Sexualmord an einem neun Jahre alten Münchner Jungen ist gegen den geständigen Täter am Samstag Haftbefehl wegen Mordes ergangen. Die Obduktion des Opfers hat nach Polizeiangaben ergeben, daß der Junge vermutlich mit einer Plastiktüte stranguliert worden ist bis er erstickte.
...Der 28 Jahre alte Mörder, der bereits 1994 einen Elfährigen umgebracht hatte und dafür neun Jahre in Haft saß, war ein enger Freund der Familie.

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub77CAECAE94D7431F9EACD163751D4CFD/Doc~E7C6D8A5B9F9D4AA39C4CEB6940310D4F~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

A child murder is released and kills again. Do you see a problem here? He should have been sitting on death row and executed after his appeals run out. The sureal fact is that many Germans will fall over themselves defending the convicted child murderer to ensure needless victims in the future. For what? So that social elite can continue to expound their "moral superiority" to the rest of the world?

Perverted justice is no justice.

[Mir]

One has only to look at France to recognize that it is not always possible to rely on the state for protection. I can only hope that the Americans will look at old Europe as an example. Even the Democrats shouldn't be so stupid to make big changes to gun laws.

[James W.]

I think it's important to look at the trend. Murder rates have dropped rather steadily in the US since 1965 to a low in 2000--there were a couple of years where it raised slightly and dropped again in 2004.

I remember reading something about murder rates being lower in states with more liberal gun laws than those with stricter control. That seems logical to me. The criminals are less likely to mess with someone who may be packing.

One has only to look at France to recognize that it is not always possible to rely on the state for protection.

Check this out:

[...]"Gun-control advocates look at guns only as a means to harm others even though they are more often used to prevent injury. According to a 1995 study entitled “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun” by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, published by the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology at Northwestern University School of Law, law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year.

That means that firearms are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to shoot with criminal intent. Of these defensive shootings, more than 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse. About half a million times a year, a citizen carrying a gun away from home uses it in self-defense. Again, according to Kleck amd Gertz, “Citizens shoot and kill more criminals than police do every year [2,819 times versus 303].” Moreover, as George Will pointed out in an article entitled “Are We a Nation of Cowards?” in the November 15, 1993, issue of Newsweek, while police have an error rate of 11 percent when it comes to the accidental shooting of innocent civilians, the armed citizens’ error rate is only 2 percent, making them five times safer than police." [...]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0210e.asp

[kid charlemagne]

Hi Jorg, I don't appreciate your accusations of racism. I never said black people "don't count". I did want to point out, however, a factor that most people ignore when discussing this issue. The black murder rate is greater than the white murder rate in America by a factor of seven. Whatever the reasons are for this, it has to be taken into taken consideration when discussing violent crime in America. As you acknowledge - and I appreciate your taking the time to look at the statistics and sort them out - the difference between the murder rates among white Americans and Germans is not huge.

[lawriter]

There is a violent streak in American society. There is no getting around it. If someone is threatened, they may strike out and hurt what they percieve as threatening. The fact that we are gun owners is probably the reason why our murder rates are higher than in Europe.

But I will take my chances in America. In America, the vast majority of violent crime is individual on individual. This type of violence is much easier to defend against. Especially if you own firearms. We don't worry much about our government committing violence against us. Unlike in Europe, the American citizens are the ones with the real power. Ours might be the only nation on Earth where government officials fear the citizens, rather than the other way around.

American citizens have great freedoms. But they are held responsible for their actions. If someone uses a firearm in a reckless or dangerous way, they will suffer the consequences of their own actions. The right to own firearms is not taken away from everybody just because a small minority of idiots cannot handle the responsibility. The responsiblity lies on the individual.

It seems to me that in Europe the responsibility lies with the state. The state makes the decisions and accepts the responsiblity for its citizens. Their citizens cannot own guns because some individuals would not use them properly. While this provides an element of safety and comfort, it takes away an individual's self determination.

I imagine that being European would be like living in a permanent childhood. The parent state protects you and makes most of the decisions in your life. Most risk and uncertainty is eliminated from day to day life. The stress of problem solving is given to the state, so the individual can concentrate on being happy and content.

I am not saying that there isn't some element of this in American society, but we are much more responsible for our own lives as Americans than Europeans are. Or at least we have a choice between childhood and adulthood. Even if it means more complexities, more struggle, more uncertainty.....I would much rather be an adult.

[Pamela]

Interesting discussion. If there is one place I definitely would not want to be living right now, it's the UK. The criminal justice system there has just about collapsed.

Only five days later, the papers reported that 1,023 prisoners of foreign origin had been released from British prisons between 1999 and 2006 without having been deported. Among them were 5 killers, 7 kidnappers, 9 rapists and 39 other sex offenders, 4 arsonists, 41 burglars, 52 thieves, 93 robbers, and 204 drug offenders. Of the 1,023 prisoners, only 106 had since been traced. The Home Office, responsible for both prisons and immigration, still doesn’t know how many of the killers, arsonists, rapists, and kidnappers are at large; but it admits that most of them will never be found, at least until they are caught after committing another offense. Although these revelations forced the Home Secretary to resign, in fact the foreign criminals had been treated only as British criminals are treated. At least we can truly say that we do not discriminate in our leniency.

Scandal has followed scandal. A short time later, we learned that prisoners had been absconding from one open prison, Leyhill, at a rate of two a week for three years—323 in total since 1999, among them 22 murderers. This outrage came to light only when a senior policeman in the area of Leyhill told a member of Parliament that there had been a crime wave in the vicinity of the prison. The member of Parliament demanded the figures in the House of Commons; otherwise they would have remained secret.

Real Crime, Fake Justice

[german observer]

@kid charlemagne: you separate out Blacks? We're talking about murder rates comparing US vs. Germany. Blacks are Americans too, as much as you wanna spin it.

[George M]

@German observer

"Blacks are Americans too, as much as you wanna spin it."

I don't think that any American who contributes to this blog will deny your statement. The causation of Black on Black violence deserves its own blog. My take on it is that the old guard Civil Rights movement has been in denial and has not dealt with the issue seriously.

This blog has been very informative. We have a tragic event in Nothern Germany. A former student runs amok and shoots 8 students before he shoots himself. We learn that this has happened several times in Germany since the tragedy in Erfurt.

Joerg reminded us with statistics that Americans murder their own six times more often than Germans do. Several Americans questioned his statitics and we now learn that the German rate of homicide is on paar with White Americans.

Yes, when people of color are taken in to consideration, the American homcide rate almost doubles. But it is still not the six to one ratio that Joerg cited. It is closer to three to five.

I think another myth has been busted. Americans are not that much more violent than Germans. Indeed, as several readers have contributed, the British iles have higher instances of assault, robberies and rape than the USA. Now if only we Americans can stop "Europaeische Verhaeltinisse" in the Black community!!

[LC Mamapajamas]

Jorg, I have a story to tell you, and it isn't one I can back up by pointing to a web site. I know about this because I was an eye witness to some of the relevant events.

You may recall that back in the late '80s, there was a rash of European tourists who were car jacked and murdered in Florida. You should know about it because it made international news, given that it seemed to be a new crime trend.

At that time, I was working in the main computer room of Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, where we printed the vehicle registrations, car titles, etc.

One day during that new rash of tourist murders, our Department Secretary and the commander of the Florida Highway Patrol (who was also under DHSMV) came into the computer room and told us that we were going to have to reissue the year's commercial number plates, and do it as fast as possible.

Because commercial plates were issued once a year (private plates are issued on your birth date), this meant reprinting the registrations for tens of millions of vehicles to change the plate identification the registration carried. When we asked why this was happening, this is what they told us:

When Florida's concealed carry law was enacted earlier that year, criminals WERE deterred from attacking local citizens. However, they quickly realized that visitors to the state did NOT have the right to concealed carry, and so started identifying rental cars by their unique commercial number plates. THAT was the reason for the sudden rash of attacks on foreign visitors... the criminals were zeroing in on the commercial car plates.

How did the authorities find out what was happening? Because several of the car jackers who had been captured TOLD them that. They SAID they were afraid to attack local residents! The State believed them and decided to give rental car agencies a free re-issue of new plates that look exactly like the private plate I have. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars to re-issue the plates, but it pretty much ended attacks against rental cars.

So the right to carry weapons MOST CERTAINLY DOES deter criminals. What we have going on in US stats is a number of densely populated cities where carrying guns is illegal, and the gang-bangers pretty much have the run of the streets. They are MOSTLY shooting EACH OTHER, but innocents who have lost the right to defend themselves too often are in the wrong place at the wrong time. The appalling number of "children" who are shot is as high as it is because crime stats in the US tend to include young men under 21 in the stats as "children"... almost all of whom are gang-bangers.

Miami was once the Murder Capital of the World. Unlike most TV programs, the old TV program "Miami Vice" was actually a pretty good depiction of what was happening there at the time. That dubious distinction now belongs to Washington, D.C., which has strict gun control laws. Once the concealed carry law passed in Florida, Miami, which once had strict gun control laws, lost the title.

The crime rate in Florida dropped further with the institution of the 10-20-Life law... 10 years (absolute, no parole, and that just for the presence of the gun, with whatever sentence for your crime on top of it) if you have a gun on your person during the crime, 20 years, absolute, if you fire the gun in the commission of a crime, and Life, absolute (NO parole!) if you injure someone with a gun during the commission of a crime. If you kill someone with a gun, that's another matter.

The crime rate here dropped even FURTHER when we were granted the right, by legislation, to defend ourselves with guns on the streets. This is a different matter, since the concealed carry law of the late '80s was mainly aimed at the car jackings that were "fashionable" among crooks at that time. The new law gives us an absolute right to self-defense anywhere... even on public streets.

Each of those laws was accompanied by Dire Predictions from the left of Florida turning into the Wild West. It never happened. Instead, the crime rate went through the floor. The problem with all those Dire Predictions is that even the Wild West wasn't the Wild West. Gangs like the James Gang and the Dalton Gang were famous because they were rare and unusual, even in the "Wild West". Little House on the Prairie is a more accurate depiction of the "Wild West", given that the story line was taken from the memoirs of a woman who was actually there and not from the imaginations of Hollyweird screen writers. The writers on the Little House project were required to stay within the parameters of the memoirs originally written by Laura Ingles Wilder.

So, someday, when the country is fully armed, we may well get back to a point where crime is unusual, as it was during the days of the "Wild West". As long as there are liberals who think the rest of us are dolts who can't manage our own affairs, however, we will continue to have a high crime rate.

[Pamela]

I can vouch (from memory) everything LC Mama wrote. I remember those carjackings in Florida well. Here in Virginia, we also have concealed-carry rights. And there isn't a firearms instructor around who doesn't tell the story about a serial rapist terrorizing a city (in Florida IIRC). The cops put out a press release saying they would train any woman who wanted in how to use a gun. They expected maybe 10-30 women would show up.

Hundreds showed up. The rapes stopped.

Chicks with guns. I'm lovin' it.

[americanbychoice]

We also have to understand tht there are wide open spaces in the USA tha camping out there without a frirearm would be silly. We do protect our wild life such as Bears, Wolves. Horses (yes, wild Horses) etc. n Germany, if a Bear or wolf is spotted they are hunted and killed.

Another interesting comparison would be the numbers of Hunters in the US vs. Germany. Many Families, especially in the west still hunt to put meat on the table for their families.

I employed a man in Utah once who owned a Ranch. One time he was riding and a wild Mutang approached intent on stealing his mare. Had he not had a gun, he would have been killed.

[Jorg-AtlanticReview]

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Thanks for the responses.

Very interesting about Florida license plates and about rapes.

Regarding carrying concealed weapons. The law might be a good deterence, but I would find it a hassle to wear a gun. I enjoy it, that I don't need one. Some of you described that attitude as childish. Okay, fine with me.

@ American by Choice:
"We also have to understand tht there are wide open spaces in the USA tha camping out there without a frirearm would be silly."

I have been camping a lot all over America. I never felt the need to have a firearm. I was only once concerned that some crazy and drunk gun lovers might kill me by accident.

How many Americans are accidentally killed by firearms? Such incidences are not mentioned in the statistics we discussed earlier, I guess.

@ Buckeye Abroad and others
"You are twice as likely to get raped, mugged or assaulted in the UK than the US."

That is based on a poll. And contradicted by these statistics concerning rape:

Researching the "Rape Culture" of America: "60. International Crime Rates (Washington, D.C.: Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1988), p. 1.
(rates of tape per 100,000 inhabitants):
FORCIBLE RAPE
U.S. 38.1
U.K. (England and Wales only) 12.1
(West) Germany 8.0
France 7.8
Japan 1.3
Source: Japan 1992: An International Comparison (Tokyo: Japan Institute for Social and Economic Affairs, 1992), p. 93."
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

Newer numbers for US and Germany from government sources:

Forcible Rape in the United States:
Year Number of offenses Rate per 100,000 inhabitants
2003 93,883 32.3
2004 94,635 32.2"
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Deutschland: Vergewaltigung und sexuelle Nötigung:
2004: 8 831 => 11.0 per 100.000 inhabitants
2003: 8 766
http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2004/p_3_18.pdf

That's three times higher in the US than in Germany.

Note from Davíd: Jorg, please go back to the stats and control for age distribution. Sexual crimes are highly correlated with age. Germany's average age is higher than in the U.S. - so that will cover part of the difference.

[jlwb]

In our urban area we have cougars living in the 100-acre green belt, which is just 2 houses away from our house. Cats, dogs and the occasional goat become cougar chow. They have stalked children. We also have Coyotes and some dang big raccoons. Our 1st line of defense is our dog. He lets us know if anything comes on the property, animal or human. A paintball gun has taken care of the critters. If they are human and not friendly, the sound of a shotgun being pumped usually works. That’s MINE. My husband, however, likes his handgun and rifles. We have never been robbed or assaulted. At one point we were the only house in a group of 6 that was left alone. Hmmmmm…wonder why?
The other families didn't own guns. The only thing we’ve ever shot at were the targets at the range. What happened in Europe in WWII? What was one of the 1st things that Hitler looked for as he entered countries? They found the names of people who owned guns.

[Jörg Brörmöller]

George M
\begin{quote}
Sorry Joerg...Abseits, or in American speak, "illegal procedure, 5 yard penalty."

I read the PDF that you cited. The German BKA statistics treats murders different from voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter. Most U.S. police combine these three categories into one statistic: homicides.

The German BKA statistics show that for every murder, there are two manslaughter cases. Instead of 750 murders nationwide, Germany has close to 3,000 homicides every year. Do the math....Germany has close to 35 homicides per one hundred thousand....closer to the U.S. statistic of 56 per thousand. Given cultural differences and the fact that many homicides are committed by illegal aliens, there is not that much difference.
\end{quote}

Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmen! Wer lesen kann ist klar im Vorteil.

Wenn man T92 in Abschnitt 3.1 betrachtet, sollte einem auffallen, dass es da eine Spalte "Versuche in %" gibt. Daraus ergibt sich folgendes Bild:

Schusswaffen
Schlüssel Straftaten(gruppen) insgesamt Versuche gedroht geschossen

0100 Mord 794 51,3 0,9 14,1
0110 Mord
i.Z.m. Raubdelikten 49 53,1 4,1 10,2
0120 Mord i.Z.m.
Sexualdelikten 22 36,4 0,0 0,0
0200 Totschlag und Tötung
auf Verlangen 1602 74,0 0,7 6,2

Was lernt uns das? Die Statistik beinhaltet Mord und Mordversuche sowie Totschlag und Totschlagsversuche. So wie ich die US-Statistik verstehe, reden wir da von abgeschlossenen Verbrechen, aber da lasse ich mit mir reden. Diese Statistik beinhaltet Fälle, die Anzahl der Opfer kann hier höher sein.
Wenn man die Versuche von den Zahlen abzieht, erhält man 387 Morde und 417 Totschlage. Nimmt man an, dass die Anzahl der Toten um ca. 25 % höher ist als die Anzahl der Taten, kommt man auf ca. 1000 Tote für das Jahr 2005. Insgesamt komme ich da auf eine Rate von 1,25 Morden und Totschläge auf 100.000.

Langer Rede kurzer Sinn: Äpfel und Birnen, im einen wie dem anderen Falle. Trotzdem ist die gesamte Quote in Deutschland signifikant niedriger, bspw. 1:5, wenn man schwarz, weiss oder kariert Gesummse rauslässt. Schusswaffen kamen nur etwas mehr als 200 Fällen zum Einsatz, wobei sich das in Bezug auf vollendete Tatbestände auf weniger als 100 reduziert, also auf 0,1 pro 100.000. Da sprechen die Zahlen eine ziemlich deutliche Sprache.

Jörg

[Buckeye Abroad]

@jorg

I noticed you focused on rape to and followed your link to your source.

"Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers who specializes in contemporary moral theory."

An academic feminist is someone who I find suspectible to preconceived notions from my expereicne.

Also your table your quoting from Sommers chutzpa is based on 1983 stats as I looked over her sources. I don't blame her for choosing 1983. You should read up.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ijs.htm

Also, your rape link. I notice you left something off.

Year Number per 100k % change
2003 93,883 32.3 +0.8
2004 94,635 32.2 -0.2

A drop on year-on-year comparisons. Also the methodologies of your links are completely incompatbile. From the US FBI link:

"Offense Methodology
The UCR Program counts one offense for each female victim of a forcible rape, attempted forcible rape, or assault with intent to rape, regardless of the victim’s age. The Program classifies as Part II offenses all other crimes of a sexual nature and, as such, collects only arrest statistics concerning them. Statutory rape, in which no force is used but the female victim is under the age of consent, is included in the aggregated arrest total for the sex offenses category. Sexual attacks on males are counted as aggravated assaults or sex offenses, depending on the circumstances and the extent of any injuries."

How does the BKA define rape for a statistical comparison?

Nice try, but now you are being deceptive.

[Jorg-AtlanticReview]

First you claim "the methodologies of your links are completely incompatbile"

but then rather than saying why, you are actually asking me:

"How does the BKA define rape for a statistical comparison?"

If you don't know the answer, then would makes you think the methodologies are completely incompatible?

The German statistics include "sexuelle Nötigung", which are not counted in the US! Thus a wider range of cases is included in the German statistics than in the US.

Besides, I just brought up the rape statistics to counter some claims by others.

Moreover, I have responded to David's note about checking for age distribution, but that comment was not approved by the moderator.