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Cut and run. A shared policy of the left on both sides of the big pond.

I like it. We can all feel safe. Europe will be on the front lines and America will be protected. And here I was - silly me worried.

Good luck with that. The nanosecond I realized what the German/European media was about, I met with every Congressman/staffer I could.

You are too late.

Your Islamists hordes will overwhelm you and we won't lift a fucking finger.

Bye.

Pamela,

I want to believe this more than I wanted to believe in Santa Claus when I was 9

Don't you think the left here will save the left there? They are brothers in arms.

@joe
I want to believe this more than I wanted to believe in Santa Claus when I was 9

I have been doing my job as an American. I have been educating every one and I have access. Lots don't want to believe me - they're young - but some are shocked into it.

They don't even know who Hayek is. That's the school system for you.

So, that's what I'm doing. It may or may not be the most effective track. Who knows?

But it is what I can do so it is what I do.

Pamela,

I am doing the same thing. There was a short news article in the WSJ several months ago about young people and their reaction to the hate toward their nation displayed by others. Almost to a person they felt that if they should have the same feelings toward those who hate them.

The euros may thing this is all a game to take the focus off their own set of problems but they will live to regret the day they started all of this.

Cut'n run in Iraq.

Sounds good to me. Next stop - Hamburg. Where it all started, really. Germans seem to overlook the fact that it's a lot more difficult to get into the US these days than into the EU. Once into the EU it's open borders - so one can go anywhere

Chickens coming home to roost. I can't think of a more fitting place for them to rest than Deutschland....

@joe
"Don't you think the left here will save the left there? They are brothers in arms."
Most of the military do not fall into the "left" camp. If this trend continues....especially if Hillary is elected president in 2008, you will not be seeing current soldiers reupping as they are now. Fewer people will join. A draft is possible, but, would be VERY unpopular. Who would the left send to Europe?
Just talked to my son today. He's been a soldier for 8 years. Planned to make it to 20-30 years. He's getting out in 2008 if the dems take the Congress and Whitehouse.


He's getting out in 2008 if the dems take the Congress and Whitehouse.

Talk about "cut & run".

@ Alan Shore
Have YOU been active combat?
Have YOU been jumped and ended up fighting for your life, hand to hand?
Do YOU have combat badges?
He's put in his time and done what was asked. What have YOU done!

ok...calmer mode.....history shows that there was a cut in support for the troops under Carter and Clinton. Votes in Congress show Democratic votes against money for body armor and uparmor. If the troops are not given the equipment they need to stay alive, they have every right to not reup. They are not cannon fodder. It is not cut and run. It is common sense.

doesn't it just warm your heart...?

It does indeed. Seeing all the Republican moaning and W. trying to reach out to Nancy - it's amazing. Who knows maybe there will be a new beginning in transatlantic relations just like the 2005 elections in Germany did. 'Member, the German Chancellor used to be Bush's nemesis. Now Angie is his lap dog. But hey, it's all worth it.

@ ilwb

That's right. Blame it all on the Democrats. But let me ask you this: Who put your son in harms way in the first place? Who invented all these tales about WMDs and what not? Who started this terrible war? You brake it you own it.

I must assume you do not read the NYT. November 3, 2006 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/world/middleeast/03cnd-documents.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=d6e60f288e881789&hp=&ex=1162616400&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1163054237-odnx598lCeDhKX/7A+2miw )
"... in 2002 for United Nations inspectors in charge of making sure Iraq had abandoned its unconventional arms programs after the Persian Gulf war. Experts say that at the time, Mr. Hussein’s scientists were on the verge of building an atom bomb, as little as a year away."
1441 was voted for....100%. Every county involved thought he had WMDs, including Germany and France. Now, even the NYTs thinks so as well....although the article bashes Bush for letting it get public!
You get to call it one way or the other....not both. Either the weapons program in Iraq was advanced enough to produce a weapon in as little as a year. Or, the NYTs is inventing these tales.
As for the what nots: Kurds were gassed! People were put in shedders. Mass graves are present.
I must assume with the "what not" that you are OK with mass graves, chemical weapons, shooting at planes over the no fly zone, killing of marsh arabs..etc.

> If Europe perceives that the United States are striving
> to take on a new tone and a new direction, then public
> opinion here will turn positive

Honestly, why would the Americans care about the public opinion in Europe? A couple of things. Europe is a dying continent. It will be supplanted with Islam in the next two generations. Europe doesn't even have the will to defend herself. Don't even mention the guts. Why would the US care about their opinion? Europe carries a big mouth and a non-existent stick. Europe doesn't count. It had a magnificient past, a present in denial, and a no future. Europe. Post Christian. Post Western. Post European.

To Alan Shore:
> Who invented all these tales about WMDs and what not?

Everybody though that Saddam had weapons programs. Yes, even the Germans. The German intelligence service thought in 2001 February (when GWB was barely president for a month) that Saddam was only three years away from acquiring a nuke.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1189182.stm

Vilmos

Yessiree, Bob! I can feel trans-Atlantic relations getting better already, can't you?

It seems like we'll have more in common with Germany, after all. With neither party in the US Congress having a workable majority, we're in for 2 years of gridlock. Looks like the Libertarians won.

@Alan Shore: What "moaning" are you referring to?

Since I got problems with trackbacks:
At the end of a post about German Reactions to the Midterm Elections, I wrote:
"Davids Medienkritik's perception that Europeans want the US to "cut and run in Iraq" is misinformed. I think most Europeans are very concerned about developments in Iraq and Afghanistan and will blame the US for any problem in Iraq resulting from a pre-mature withdrawal in Iraq."

Ray, what makes you think that Europeans want the US to cut and run?

Note from David: Typepad has an automatic "hold for approval" function for trackbacks

I also feel that Europe wants Us to "cut and run".
My colleagues are glad that Bush "lost" the elections, just for this reason. They think now that US will pull out.
Why does Europe want US to pull out in my opinion?
-for Europe, the islamo-fascist danger is not a real one. Germany, for instance, is not worried about terrorist attacks. Not even about the failed one in Germany, two months ago.
-on the other hand, Bush is, of course, a bigger threat to the world than Iran and NKorea. That means, pull out and then everything will be fine. Or, we (US) provoked the terrorists.
-Europe doesn't want freedom (the freedom not to be killed by muslim attacks). They just want peace, and that at all cost. I think this is frightening

Thanks, David!

@ Neocon

I also feel that Europe wants Us to "cut and run".

Not all feelings are accurate. The difference between truth and truthiness.

The other day, a reader commented on our blog "Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly" in the European media.

I am not aware of any such equations. I consider it possible that there might have been a cartoon about this, but not such an equation in a political commentary. Since the reader said that he is reading Davids Medienkritik, I have googled Davids Medienkritik for "Bush" and "ape/monkey", but I have not found a single example in any post on Davids Medienkritik.

I have only found several comments by Davids Medienkritik readers in that direction, i.e. many of you believe that such comparisons are made, but none of you linked to any evidence. I might have missed it. I did not read all comments due to lack of time.

Thus, if anybody has seen some on in the German media equating President Bush with an ape, please let me know. Otherwise, this is another case of truthiness based on perception gone mad. What you feel is not always correct. It does not matter how many of you feel that way. Agreeing on something does not make it true.

Note from David: We have a fair share of Bush-ape comparisons from left-wing commentors. It just doesn't show up in our blog - we delete them right away. And please: stop teaching our readers about appropriate interpretations of German anti-Americanism. You can do that in your blog. No more Oberlehrers with Allerweltsweisheiten in our blog, please.


Likewise I do not doubt that many of you agree with Ray and Neocon about Europeans wanting the US to cut and run. Though, I have not seen any such statements by European governments (not even by major media outlets). I might have missed them.
Since you made that claim, please back it up.

Note from David: I don't know where you live. I live in Germany. "Cut and run" - i.e. getting out asap at any cost - is the default recommendation of the German left and of the majority of Germans for conflicts where pro-Western military is involved: Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Gaza. Without international pressure no German troops would be active in conflicts outside German borders.

Neocon also wrote "Germany, for instance, is not worried about terrorist attacks." You should check some opinion polls. Threat perceptions are not that different in the US and Europe. Most Europeans just did not want to invade a country like Iraq, that did not attack the US. Most Americans regret that decision now as well, it seems.

Note from David: Germany has at best a lackluster performance in the war against terror, dating back to the era of the Bader-Meinhof terrorism. Back then even modest anti-terrorism proposals were greeted with almost universal distrust from most of the media (Axel Springer papers excluded); up to this day German politics is hesitant to introduce substantial anti-terrorism measures. Al Queida chose Germany over other locations for their 9/11 preparations. They knew why.

Oops, the first link does not work. The comment "Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly" was made here.

@Alan Shore

"Talk about "cut & run"."

Nice slander of an American soldier you coward.

@jlwb
"He's been a soldier for 8 years. Planned to make it to 20-30 years. He's getting out in 2008 if the dems take the Congress and Whitehouse."

I have teenage nephews and told them to wait after the 2008 election before deciding if they want to join up. Told them more precisely, "don't ever volunteer when a dem is President." LBJ and Clinton's follies are enough to understand why.

I think most Europeans are very concerned about developments in Iraq and Afghanistan and will blame the US for any problem in Iraq resulting from a pre-mature withdrawal in Iraq."

Jorg, what are Europeans doing now? The US has not withdrawn, but Europeans already blame almost everything that happens in Iraq on the US presence. They claim that the violence in Iraq is a result of the misguided US policies.

Europeans blame the US when it stays, and will blame the US if it leaves. Are you honestly implying that this is not the case?

@ David

"We have a fair share of Bush-ape comparisons from left-wing commentors. It just doesn't show up in our blog - we delete them right away."

You misunderstood me.

The reader I was referring to was NOT saying that some leftist nutcases make those comparisons on your blog.

He said "Look at the pages of Der Speigel, Paris Match, Le Monde, and 'leading' Spanish and Italian newspapers. Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly."

And when I asked him to back that up, he wrote "I've seen it in the pages of the Guardian and the Independent. I also spend time on MedienKritik."

Thus I assumed that Medienkritik has found examples in Spiegel or other papers of Bush being equated with an ape. Have you indeed found such equations in Spiegel or other papers?

"And please: stop teaching our readers about appropriate interpretations of German anti-Americanism."

They can interpret all they what, but it seems that some of them invent Anti-Americanism or they totally misunderstand what you write.
Either Spiegel has equated Bush with an ape or Spiegel has not. That's not an issue of interpretation. Besides, I would be very interested in what kind of Spiegel sentence would justify such an interpretation in your opinion.
If Spiegel runs a cover that show Bush dressed like a cowboy, then you cannot possibly interpret that as Spiegel equating Bush with an ape. That is stretches even the limits of truthiness.

""Cut and run" - i.e. getting out asap at any cost - is the default recommendation..."

Really? Then it should be easy for you cite a government official or an editorial in any leading paper that calls for an immediate withdrawal of US forces from Iraq.
Ray did not substantiate his claim that Europeans want the US cut and run in Iraq.


@ WhatDoIknow
"Europeans blame the US when it stays, and will blame the US if it leaves. Are you honestly implying that this is not the case?"

No, I am not implying that this is not the case. Why do you respond to every question with another question and with putting words in my mouth? Why don't you answer my questions for a change?

It's not so difficult to understand, Mr WhatdoIknow: If the US stays in Iraq and the conflict gets worse, Europeans will blame America. If the US leaves Iraq and the conflict gets worse, Europeans will blame America. That's not a contradiction, because Europeans want the US to succeed in Iraq, i.e. to bring stability to that country, ideally democracy, as you have promised in 2003. Instability in that region is not in our interest. To the contrary it is dangerous for us.
If the US stays in Iraq and the Iraq gets stable, then Europeans will not blame America. If Iraq turns out to be the model democracy that you promised in 2003 and brings democracy to the entire region, as you promised in 2003, then we will all sing praise for you and name bridges, highschools, hospitals etc after all Neocons.
You started that war. Now you have to fix it. You have to keep you promises. If you don't keep your promise, people will blame you. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Note from David: Folks, Jorg wants you to believe that anti-American feelings in Europe are following rational patterns. Success in Iraq will turn Europeans into enthusiastic supporters of America; its just the lack of success of American policy in Iraq that causes all the criticism. And of course, Europe wants the Americans to succeed in Iraq.
I believe that. After tons of anti-American trash in the German (and other European) media, I really believe this to be true. More than anything else, Europeans want America to succeed in Iraq.
Thanks, Jorg, for your valuable input.
As to your request to search for proof of certain anti-American slants in the German media: hey, I might start a blog (or how they call it) to present the existence of anti-American bias in the German media (if there is any). Hmm...the name...the name...how about "Davids Medienkritik"?
Can we, please, now stop this conversation?

Jorg,

I have to assume you do not feel as many of your fellow citizens obviously do not that Hitler was evil. I do not think you can run from the fact that your citizens and members of your elected government have from time to time referred to the POTUS as Hitler. Given the choice of being called Hitler or an ape, I would prefer being called an ape. The insult would not be as great.

Promises promises promises,.......yes germans and their promises.

Just what has germany ever promised?

A fine ally a real supporter of the US. Your performacne at the UN in conjuction with france and Russia really were the actions of true and solid ally.

You were just trying to save us from ourselves. We did not realize at the time what real allies you were.

I guess we will live in hell for not listing to you.

Polls Polls Polls

You just got to love polls. Let see what dothe polls say. Jorg says they say germans worry about terrorism. Do they really? Germans don’t seem to worry about Iran.

The polls also say the US and the POTUS are a greater threat to world peace than the DPRK or Iran or just about any other nation or group.

That what the polls say.

Well GWB will only be the POTUS for two more years. I would think there would be a huge shift in the polls or a small shift as there will still be a US.

You just got to love polls. Put of faith in polls and the UN and you are a euro the EU.
This give us protection and direction.

Why do you respond to every question with another question and with putting words in my mouth?

Jorg, I was just asking a question. That was all. A question.

Why don't you answer my questions for a change?

???

When exactly did you ask me a quesion? Please, please, I request that you point to me the post where you asked me something? I will appologize if I ignored any questions for me.

Jorg, I told you this before: you display a certain level of emotivity, a la A. Sullivan. Stay calm and we might have a discussion.

You started that war. Now you have to fix it. You have to keep you promises. If you don't keep your promise, people will blame you. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

I don't know why you get so fired up. You are right; I agree. The US should leave only after winning (or fixing Iraq). This might take a long time, but it's not impossible. Bush has said countless times that this is his intention.

However, the EU's best friends in America, the Democrats, see it differently than Bush, you and I. They don't want to stay and win. On radio this morning Brit Hume talked about his interview with N. Pelosi, where he asked her (I don't remember the exact words) whether the US should stay in Iraq and win or whether the US should ... and I don't remember exactly ... do something else. Her answer was not to stay and win, but to "solve the problem"/"find a solution to the problem" (this is close to her words).

The implication is clear. She doesn't believe in staying and winning the war. Bush most likely will not be able to follow through with his vision if the Congress opposes it completely. The irony is that it might be EU's American friends, the Democrats, who will be responsible for a disastrous retreat. I bet that if that happened, the EU would still blame Bush. Do you have any doubts?

The euros want to blame the US for everything so why should Iraq be any different. This is call shifting of responsiblity. There are no group of nations or more perfect citizens that the euros. Don't believe me look at their history.

Pick something and at the end of the day it is easier to blame the US

here is a list to get you thinking
Climiate - enegry - trade - globalization - technology - security - montary policy - justice system - elections -

Iran will be the next place the euros will blame the US. Lets see the euros blame and hold the US accountable for acting unlaterially now the euros hold the US accountable for not acting unlaterially.

It is unfortunate we are not all euros and espically german euros we would damn close to being perfect.

Have you indeed found such equations in Spiegel or other papers?

Jorg

I have no idea your commenter said what he said about Bush-the-ape in the EU media. Don't ask *me* about that.

OTOH, the first moment I saw this cartoon in Süddeutsche Zeitung, it struck me that Bush's face strongly resembles strongly ape. I know that cartoons are the art of making fun by distorting reality. Maybe I am wrong, but I still see Bush's face in that cartoon coming extremely close to an ape. I didn't say anything at the time, since the rest of the cartoon is ridiculous enough. Now that you brought that up though, I thought I would point that out.

Jorg

To make it more clear, have a look at this photo from the 'Planet of the Apes' and then compare it with the cartoon. I see quite a similarity between the two "apes".

Yeah, you always blame someone else, if the Bush administration does not achieve its goals: The Germans, the French, the "liberal" media, or the Democrats.
If the Democrats vote for a premature withdrawal, then you will blame the Democrats and ignore that the Democrats have been elected by Americans, who used to support the war and used to vote for Bush and other Republicans in the past, but changed their mind.
You refer to "The Democrats" just as a scapegoat.

Why don't you blame those Americans, who elected Bush twice, but now jump ship and "cut and run" from the commitment they made, when they said in 2003 that they were in favor of the Iraq war?


@ WhatDoIKnow
Don't be paranoid. Bush is drawn similarly in US cartoons.

Besides, the reader commented on our blog "Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly"
Equating!
And I wrote in an earlier comment: "I am not aware of any such equations. I consider it possible that there might have been a cartoon about this, but not such an equation in a political commentary."

You write: "Don't ask *me* about that."
Why not? You and the other regular commentators here are the experts in criticism of Bush. Besides the reader wrote that he learned about this equation from Medienkritik.

Note from David: Usually I don't react to orders - but it was too tempting to do a Google search for "Bush - Affe - Spiegel". What about this interview in SPIEGEL:
"SPIEGEL: Sie meinen, die Machtpolitik von
Blair und Bush sei bereits bei den Menschenaffen
angelegt?
De Waal: Davon bin ich überzeugt. Beim
Menschen fängt es sogar schon im Kindesalter
an: Bringt man Zweijährige in einem
Raum zusammen, klären sie sofort – wenn
nötig, mit Fäusten –, wer der Boss ist."
And have a look at the pic at the bottom of the page: on the left "Verbündete Bush únd Blair", on the right: "Verbündete Schimpansen". Hahaha, that's good old fashioned in-your-face German humor!!
Jorg - your comment?

Yeah, you always blame someone else, if the Bush administration does not achieve its goals: The Germans, the French, the "liberal" media, or the Democrats.

Jorg

This is not about blame. Let's forget blame, accusations, emotions for a while, shall we?

If the US withdraws from Iraq, it will definitely not be because of Bush and the neo-cons. I also don't believe that *some* voters put the Democrats in power so that the US can withdraw. I absolutely don't believe that. I am pretty sure I saw polls in the past where support for withdrawal was limited.

Why don't you blame those Americans, who elected Bush twice, but now jump ship and "cut and run" from the commitment they made, when they said in 2003 that they were in favor of the Iraq war?

I agree. A large part of the aproximately 50% (?) of the voters who voted for the Democrats will also carry the burden of a precipitous retreat. As I said before, not *all* Democrat voters want to withdraw, but unfortunately they put in power a party who wants just that.

If the US withdraws from Iraq, it will be because the Democrats have managed to impose their will. It's as simple as that. This is not blame; it's a matter of fact conclusion.

Additionally, many Americans, like any many other Westerners, don't have the stomach for long wars anymore. That's the reality of today's world and that's true for any other Western country.


Don't be paranoid. Bush is drawn similarly in US cartoons.

I don't think I am "paranoid". You sure like to use emotionally loaded words, don't you ;-) As I said earlier, I didn't pay too much attention to that when I first saw it. I only brought it up now casually, not as an undeniable evidence.

"Don't ask *me* about that."
Why not? You and the other regular commentators here are the experts in criticism of Bush. Besides the reader wrote that he learned about this equation from Medienkritik

Jorg, your emotions got the best of you again. Why not ask me? Because I didn't say that. I have no idea why that person said what he said. I didn't say it, I didn't endorse it, ergo, I don't explain it. I can't believe you need me to explain to you something so basic.

I never thought of hearing that one day. The germans want US to succeed in Irak!!

I knew that Europeans would come around once the Democrats achieved success here in the US because the Democrats believe in what the Europeans do: high taxes to pay for oodles of expensive social programs; national healthcare that ends up shortchanging the enduser; monstrous bureaucracies that monitor everything from media to what you are allowed to put in your mouth...in a nutshell, they are fans of the nanny state, where individual responsibility is replaced by Big Brother.

Also, the Democrats worry more about popularity than the Republicans. Bill Clinton is a prime example. Europeans loooved Bill Clinton, because he was mindful of his popularity quotient (much like highschoolers).

So do I feel happy that Europeans will have a more "positive opinion" of us? Not if it means that my wallet is thinner, I have less autonomy, and our sovereignty takes second place to world opinion.

It would appear many if not the majority of euros are pleased the demos defeated those evil warmongering Republicans. That of course is very much their right to do so.

They are happy because they see a change in US foreign policy. They celebrate the victory of a political party who wants the US to withdraw from Iraq on some time line that has nothing to with the military or political situation on the ground.

They therefore must think as do some Americans that withdrawing from Iraq will make them safer.

If one ever bothers to study history, they soon discover some very fascinating things.

Some time what appears to be success, happiness, joy and gloating ends up at a later date being false and causing great pain?

From time to time I see newsreels of cheering Germans in Berlin as they welcome their troops home from france. It was a period of success, happiness, great joy and pride. You can see it on the faces of everyone lining the street.

Jumping forward 5 years to Berlin, those cheering and proud Germans seem no where to be found. Wonder what happened?

If the euros think the policies of the demos are going to lead to their safety, then they deserve the blowback that surely will visit their nation.

It will be interesting to see if the same emotions held today will be present when that time comes.


.

@ David
That is all that you found?

Spiegel interviewed a Dutch primatologist about primatology, not about US politics!

Spiegel did not bring up George Bush. Spiegel asked the Dutch professor, whether chimps are vassals. He said they are not. He responded that chimps are like humans. Chimps cooperate on the basis of mutual give and take, just like humans. Then he said that Blair will not support Bush much longer unless Bush gives Blair something back.
Here is the full quote, which you did not mention:
SPIEGEL: Sie sind also perfekte Untertanen?
De Waal: Überhaupt nicht! Unter der Oberfläche brodelt es. Um sich gegenseitig zur Macht zu verhelfen, schmieden Schimpansen Allianzen, die auf Geben und Nehmen basieren. Das ist bei Menschen nicht anders: Wenn US-Präsident George W. Bush etwa Tony Blair, seinem größten Unterstützer, nicht langsam etwas Bedeutendes zurückgibt, will selbst Blair vermutlich bald nichts mehr mit Bush zu tun haben.
SPIEGEL: Sie meinen, die Machtpolitik von Blair und Bush sei bereits bei den Menschenaffen
angelegt?
De Waal: Davon bin ich überzeugt. Beim Menschen fängt es sogar schon im Kindesalter an: Bringt man Zweijährige in einem Raum zusammen, klären sie sofort – wenn nötig, mit Fäusten –, wer der Boss ist.

Thus, this Dutch primatologist did not say that Bush is like an ape, but that apes are like humans. The pictures by Spiegel are just an illustration for what the primatologist said. It's not an opinion by Spiegel. And even if we count this examples, it does not justify the statement "Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly"

The entire interview is about similarities between apes and humans. The primatologist wrote a book about "The Ape within us" according to Spiegel. So we are all apes.

Usually Davids Medienkritik, accuses Spiegel of calling Tony Blair a vassal of the President Bush. Now a Spiegel interviewee contradicts that and you still don't like it.

Anyway, I guess we can end this debate and conclude that the statement "Bush has been equated with an ape fairly regularly" is not true despite what some folks believe.

Note from David: A severe case of reality detachment... I knew you would try to prove that all SPIEGEL wanted was to present an interesting subject within the natural sciences domain...no anti-Bush messages intended. The picture of Bush/Blair next to apes: just a way to illustrate scientic findings.
And now go back to your blog and keep arguing against the existence of anti-Americanism in Germany. It's all just a misunderstanding. As Ray says: Don't you feel the love?

So, Jorg, should I understand that you agree with what I said at 07:37 PM about the Democrats and Iraq withdrawal?

I don’t know what Europeans believe has happened here, but Americans, in general are the same now as they were last month, and the same as they were last year and the same as they were on 9-10.

The dynamics of our two-party system tend to keep the balance of power between the two parties very close at the national level unless one party happens to miss with their market research (like the Lieberman-Lamont debacle in the Connecticut senatorial race)

If European opinion of Americans changes significantly, it will be because the things they are being told about Americans changes. Could it be that European ‘Elites’ are trying to use European public opinion as a tool to influence the American political process? I think the last several years have done irreparable damage to the credibility of European public opinion among Americans.

Buckeye.

You forgot Jimmy and Desert One.

I'd love to read an explanation of Jim Webb's book Born Fighting for German consumption. I suspect that his evocation of the Scots-Irish in the expansion of America might cause some slight heartburn of those expecting a more enlightened American foreign policy.

@joe

"You forgot Jimmy and Desert One."

I met a green beret in Bad Tolz back in 89' who was on the ground for that one. Carter should hang, but instead he is to busy endorsing despots and taking their cash.

The Dems have won and al Qaeda is getting cocky.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228636,00.html

Crimeny, it's gettin' ugly around here......

Alan... "It does indeed. Seeing all the Republican moaning and W. trying to reach out to Nancy - it's amazing."

Don't read too much into this. The Democrats have WAY too thin a majority in Congress to accomplish anything, so there is no reason to kowtow to them.

Further, a lot of those new Democrats in Congress won because they ran to the RIGHT of the Republican incumbant. If they don't act like the conservatives they (pretended? actually are?), they won't be re-elected in 2008.

Let's wait and see how they perform before we start making plans ;).

Jorg

I thought we were having a discussion based on facts on the subject of Democrats and Iraq withdrawal. You left without a word in the middle of it(??). Is there any reason for that? Do you have anything new to contribute? If not, do you agree with me? Don't be a stranger.

My feeling is that you show up on DMK once in a while, basically every time accusing DMK of... bias. Of course, you can say what you want. However, our discussion had nothing to do with DMK. It was about the Democrats and Iraq, and in the middle of it you disappeared. I will not be so arrogant to believe that you disappeared because of lack of arguments on your side. I am still hopeful that you will continue the discussion (that you left so abruptly) based on facts and logic.

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Mission

The Debate

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August 2019

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