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First of all, based on past comments of Jorg, he seems to be a German A. Sullivan, not in terms of popularity, but in terms of touchiness and self-righteousness.

Secondly, comparing Fischer to Goebbels is indeed wrong. It has the unwanted effect of minimizing the real horrors encouraged by the Nazi propaganda.

However, the fact is that German politicians and media have relied heavily on Goebbels-like propaganda. Medienkritik has documented this many times in the past. I would never compare Fischer to Goebbels, there is absolutely no resemblence between those two characters. There is though a very disturbing similarity between the means used by Goebbels and Schröder-era politicians when attempting to galvanize the German people and when criticizing the USA.

I don't know if Jorg displayed the same degree of indignation at comments made by German politicians in the past. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. He shouldn't be too surprised though when Americans, instead of being saintly and turning the other cheek, respond with anger. It can be ugly, it can be exaggerated, but it's pretty much what German politicians sew in the past.

Ray, Thanks for the link! I look forward to a controversial debate based on the facts. We have in common that we don't like "journalists" who make up ridiculous aims.

Ray wrote "Joerg finds the magazine's sarcastic remarks over-the-top and unfair."

I don't think Denis Boyles remarks were meant to be "sarcastic." He sounds pretty serious.

Besides, his claims are not just "over-the-top", but incorrect and an example of truthiness.
Therefore I have asked him and anybody who is supporting him to answer a couple of questions at the end of my post. I wonder whether anybody can answer them. Then I would learn something and revise my opinion of Mr. Fischer.

@ WhatDoIKnow

"I don't know if Jorg displayed the same degree of indignation at comments made by German politicians in the past."

See my post Picture of miltary caskets abused in election campaign.

Or this post on Iran: Chancellor Schroeder did weaken the West's negotiating position by categorically ruling out the military option for Germany and by giving the impression of major differences within the transatlantic alliance. This emboldens Iran.

Germany has moved on. Schroeder isn't chancellor anymore. When will American conservatives talk about somebody else?

Germany's policy toward Iran has not changed. It is a carry over from Gerhard's golden days before he found a better gig with Russia Inc.

---"Germany has moved on. Schroeder isn't chancellor anymore. When will American conservatives talk about somebody else?"---

So sorry to disappoint you Jorg. Germany rarely was the topic of any conversation in America, conservative politcs, liberal politics or even sports. Germany never made the cover of a major magazine nor the headlines of any newspaper. Sorry, it's just they way it is. In fact Germany has been so untalked about, you would have a valid argument that Americans aren't talking enough about Germany, pro rated on a world per capita basis.

Jorg

Like so many Germans, you delude yourself believing that American Conservatives waste a lot of energy thinking or talking about German politics. Do you really believe that Germany is a regular discussion topic for Conservatives?
The US got to the point where, if Germans wants to play with the big boys, they are welcome, if they are afraid, they are welcome to march in the other direction. The era of meaningful cooperation is over (for now), courtesy of the Fischer-Schröder comic duo and the Goebbels-like propaganda machine.

---"Unless you can answer all these questions, you have zero credibility to write anything about Germany, especially about real or perceived Anti-Americanism in Europe, which seems to be your favorite topic in your coverage of Europe."---

I'd love to read that in it's original Prussian. Seriously, someone needs to switch to decafe. Well, at least take off the jodhpurs.

@ WhatDoIKnow
"courtesy of the Fischer-Schröder comic duo and the Goebbels-like propaganda machine."

Please talk to a Holocaust Survivor or visit a Holocaust Museum or educate yourself by any other means about Goebbel's propaganda machine.


@ Charlie
If conservative Americans don't care about Germany, why do they still blog about Fischer and Schroeder? Why are they more interested in Fischer and Schroeder than about the current German government?

"someone needs to switch to decafe."

I really like that phrase. I might use it the next time I read someone making a fuss, which basically happens all the time in the blogosphere.

Please talk to a Holocaust Survivor or visit a Holocaust Museum or educate yourself by any other means about Goebbel's propaganda machine

Jorg

I am curious; do you deny that German media and politicians used in their discourse lines that could have come straight out of Goebbels' office ?

Jorg:

The late American journalist, David Kelly, was editor of Atlantic Monthly. He died in an accident as an embedded reporter in Iraq. One of his last great articles was an expose of Joschka Fischer. According to ex Romanian intelligence officials, Fischer worked as a front man for super-terrorist, Carlos the Jackal, in obtaining intelligence about the OPEC ministers meeting in Vienna. I believe the time frame was 1971. Carlos stormed the meeting with a crew consisting of Palestinian and Euro terrorist and took hostages. At least one Austrian security guard was killed in the process. Fischer's former roommate, Joseph Klein, acted as Carlos' deputy in this operation.

According to a former high ranking Romanian intelligence official, then amature terrorist Fischer sent the Romanian dictator, Ceacesieu, a thank you note for providing him (and Carlos) with detailed plans of the hotel where the OPEC meeting took place.

Secondly, I suspect that Joschka is slightly more clever than his fellow Green Party colleague, Juergen Tritten, who blamed the flooding of New Orleans on the fact that George Bush ignored Kyoto, or what's her name, the former justice minister, who compared Bush to Hitler. I have not googled everything Joschka has said in public and I do not know of any "American bashing" quotes attributed directly to Joschka. However, I can attribute American bashing to at least one of Fischer's employees.

I am sure Ray or David would gladly give you a reference to the Wall Street Journal article about "The German Diplomat from Hell."

The NRO calls Fischer a "terrorist" and "Schroeder's Goebbels." I think that is incorrect.
I think David and Ray are on my side on this issue. They would never call Fischer a "terrorist" and Nazi Propaganda Minister. You could challenge them to do so, if you disagree.

So basically: If you have a problem with my criticism of the NRO, you could also criticize David and Ray.

If you think that Fischer deserves to be called a "terrorist" and Nazi Propaganda Minister, you should ask David and Ray why they don't characterize Fischer that way.

@ George M:
Have some decaf, please.

Jorg

You are full of... righteous indignation (Please talk to a Holocaust Survivor or visit a Holocaust Museum or educate yourself by any other means about Goebbel's propaganda machine), but then you don't answer my subsequent question: do you deny that German media and politicians used in their discourse lines that could have come straight out of Goebbels' office ?

In regard to Joschka -
Is he Goebbels? No
Has he had a hand in anti-American propaganda (I guess nowadays everyone uses the euphemism 'spin')? Well, uh, yes.

Luckily, in order to better deal with this comparison, for those with some algebra know-how, I noticed that there is a hidden formula within the article revealing the level of exaggeration.

$27(1.50 Euro)

So taking ~$1.28=1Euro actual exchange rate we have 27/(1.5*1.28) = about 14 times - now this assumes that Boyles wasn't being literal when he said a thimble because then that complicates things somewhat so we'll ignore that (although 1.50 for an Espresso seems rather cheap but we'll assume the Europeans gave him the name of a really crappy Espresso cafe). So anyway [Joschka Fischer*14Evil = Joseph Goebbels]. That might not be stretching it too much considering the broad sweeping generalizations and cliché stereotyping that comes from media sources like Spiegel at least weekly.

That said, with all the allusions to the money tracking programs, I still have yet to find someone who can explain to me how this (back of bank account form):
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j25/forumgeist/accountprint.jpg
is a secret to anyone. Not only to terrorists - but it's like news reporters are acting as if they 'uncovered' something here. Oh wait, I smell sensationalistic 'journalism' again... It's funny how it smells almost the same in any country.

Anyway, I'll just end this saying that I really really wish that Goebbels had been the chicken farmer because [Joschka*14Evil + chickens = Goebbels] is just mathematically much more impressive - but I can't have everything I guess - at least not today.

---"why do they still blog about Fischer and Schroeder?"---

Oooh, one blog. Head for the hills! Anyways, I think Goebbels would have probably approved of all those rendering flights. Schroder did, so I think the comparison is fair.

One of the problems of engaging in an exchange with Jorg is the definition of terms.

To clear this up a definition of the term terrorist might be appropriate and the context of that definition.

What you might very well consider a terrorist, Jorg might consider a freedom fighter.

Jorg,

"@ George M:
Have some decaf, please."

I'll admit. I have reached middle age and have given up coffee because I now have a middle age man's body! :-)

I tried to make an argument against "Joseph Fischer", aka Joschka, using credible sources. Here is one of Michael Kelly's Washington Post essays:

http://www.postwritersgroup.com/archives/kell0211.htm

The Wall Street Jounal article about the German diplomat from hell is ear marked by Google on this blog:

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/06/the_german_dipl.html

Enjoy Jorg!

Jorg,

I hate to burst your bubble, but one conservative columnist mentioning
a former leading politician does not constitute
an 'obsession'.
Boyle does happen to specialize in European affairs and as such you MIGHT find him mentioning former German politicians.. that is OK, isn't it? on the one hand I hear Europeans
bitching about the Amis being 'weltfremd', on the other hand when one Ami takes a cheap shot
at an opportunistic German politician, the conservative blogosphere is 'obsessed' with him.

Sad, perhaps, but true, but I have to agree with other posters.. Germany is totally off the radar screen for most Americans.
Henry Kissinger said in an interview with Stern that 95 percent of Americans didn't even know there WAS a German election recently. I have problems with that, but I can also defend it in a way.. Europe was an 'issue' for America for most of the 20th century.. WWI, WWII, the cold war.. Now Europe is prosperous (relatively) and at peace. Haven't the Amis earned the right to ignore you? Hasn't enough Ami blood been spilled to earn the right to say.. Europe is prosperous and at peace.. our attention doesn't need to be on them anymore?
Of course with the rise of Eurabia one could argue that really ISN'T the case (it is safe to ignore you), but that is another topic.

You cant compare Fischer and Goebbels, and you know why?
Goebbels simply convinced a whole lot more people!

Let's see, "Bush Hitler" is OK but "Joschka Goebbels" is not. I'll file this one away for future reference.

Seriously, no one should make invidious comparisons to the Nazis. It immediately stifles rational discourse. Still, I can understand the temptation in Mr. Fischer's case. The man's virulent, vile and viscious Anti-Americanism, coated in a sickening, holier-than-thou sanctimony, is enough to cause any conservative to go immediately to smashmouth mode. I saw some of his obnoxious posturing on TV in the lead-up to the German electiona and the Iraq War. And to think he's going to be in my native New Jersey teaching international crisis managemant at Princeton.

As I said at the outset, I can understand the temptation in Mr. Fischer's case.

I'm still curious to see examples of Fischer's "virulent, vile and viscious Anti-Americanism", that is, comments by Fischer about the American people. He certainly opposed the Iraq war, but so did many Americans. When Time magazine (I know, I know, M$M) named Fischer one of the Time 100 in 2004, the title said "European Without Being Anti-American", by the way.

@flux..
to be honest I have to agree with you, I don't consider Fischer to be anti American..
anybody who cites Bob Dylan as a role model is not anti American..
infantile and misguided, perhaps..
but anti American? no..
an opportunistic hypocritical weasel, that he is..
but anti American? I am with you on that one.
but he still is pond scum..
Bomb Serbia/topple Milosevic? He was 'mit Feuer u. Flamme dabei'.
But Iraq? Saddam - who was much more dangerous and killed many more people?
Then he becomes the principled pacifist again.

"I'm still curious to see examples of Fischer's "virulent, vile and viscious Anti-Americanism", that is, comments by Fischer about the American people."

Oh pleeaze, Flux. Look at who we're talking about. See this article, "Who is Joschka Fischer?" by Michael Kelly of “The Washington Post Writers Group.” Do I really need to say more about the anti-American credentials of this "statesman"?

Ok, I read the article. Kelly just states that Fischer is anti-American, but does not quote a single thing to back up that claim. Nothing in the article has anything to do with Fischer's sentiments towards the US. I'm not a fan of Fischer's by any means, but I have never heard the man say anything that would strike me as anti-American. If anyone would show me a single quote where Fischer said horrible things about the American people, I'd be happy to revise my opinion.

I am with flux on this one..
as I said, Fischer IMHO is hypocritical, opportunistic.. etc..
but anti American?
no.
opposition to America in the UNSC doesn't necessarily constitute AntiAmericanism.
America needs dissent and opposing views from her allies.. I mean that..
and I am for the Iraq war.. or should I say.. I am for GWB finishing what Saddam started in 1990-91.

Schroeder? now he's another story..
from my previous comments you see I have no use for Fischer, but I still don't think he is anti American.
and I think his 'I am not convinced' comments were OK, although I still think he is a moral hypocrite.

never heard him say anything blatantly anti American.
Friends are allowed to criticize friends.. I have heard many stupid uses of that statement by Germans, but in Fischer's case it might apply.. ok well he isn't a friend, but he aint no enemy either.

@ Charlie
"why do they still blog about Fischer and Schroeder?"---
Oooh, one blog. Head for the hills! Anyways,

Just go to technorati or google and you get more.

@ Amiexpat
Boyle does happen to specialize in European affairs
Why does he write so much nonsense about Fischer? You yourself disagree with him. Why does not he back up his claimes. Have a look at the questions I have asked him.

@ Redhand
Let's see, "Bush Hitler" is OK but "Joschka Goebbels" is not. I'll file this one away for future reference.
Thank you very much for this smart assessment. Please, have a look at the Atlantic Review's post on Anti Americanism. This is our Anti-Americanism category: http://atlanticreview.org/plugin/tag/Anti-Americanism
Just scroll down to read all posts related to Anti-Americanism.
Do you really think we would approve of calling the US president "Hitler"?

@ EVERYBODY
I notice that nobody has yet answered my questions to the National Review. I asked them to back up their claims and when was Mr. Fischer "Yank-bashing", what did he say to deserve the label "America-hater", what quote from Fischer "fanning the flames of anti-Americanism" do you have, what poll is supposed to show that "most Germans" considered American citizens to be "bloodthirsty"?
Due to lack of time I am not going to respond to any more comments here until those questions are answered.
If you have a serious and relevant question to my post and would like an answer, please post it in the comments section at the end of my blog post.
Sorry if that sounds rude, but I don't have the time to reply to unrelated questions.

Just to let you know: Denis Boyles wrote a new column and expressed regrets for his "Schroeder's Goebbels" remarks and I acknowledge that in an update.

Due to lack of time I am not going to respond to any more comments here until those questions are answered

Well, you Highness Jorg, maybe you have time to answer a question, which is based on something you yourself said here.

I'll be kind and refresh your busy memory.

I said that The era of meaningful cooperation [between USA and Germany] is over (for now), courtesy of the Fischer-Schröder comic duo and the Goebbels-like propaganda machine.

To this you answered, ignited by noble indignation: Please talk to a Holocaust Survivor or visit a Holocaust Museum or educate yourself by any other means about Goebbel's propaganda machine.

Now, this is my question, for the third time: do you deny that German media and politicians used in their discourse lines that could have come straight out of Goebbels' office ?

You challenge me and you act like a "beleidigte Leberwurst" (you know what I mean...), I answer and then... you get lost...

So far, your silence tells me that you don't deny what I said, but your ego (or your shame) doesn't allow you to admit it openly. Are you afraid to face the facts and the truth that most German MSM and some German politicians operated out of a manual that could have been written by Goebbels'? The difference is that today they attack the USA from the Left and they do it voluntarily. The only censorship is their own ideology.


P.S. Just a helpful hint for a mind, which might be to busy to fully get my point: when I accuse Germans of spreading Goebbels-like propaganda, I am talking strictly about the American aspect of Goebbels' progaganda.

Are seeing a new standard being established by Jorg?

Does this mean any time there is an article appearing in the German M$M which distorts America, the American people, the POTUS, the US military, or American policy, Jorg is going to fire off an email making the same demands?

If that is the case, he is going to be a very busy young man.

Maybe we should start some type of support fund for him, as this will become a full time job.


David Kaspar and Ray D. are both German. They are the successors of Goebbels!

unhinged, that added nothing to the discussion. On further reflection, that's what your nom de guerre implies.

Now, now, people, we need to admit we do talk about Germany.

Of course we're taking bets on how long before they fall and who they're going to take with them.......

flux,

I would not put a lot of creditability in Time. You must have forgotten they named Hitler as their Man of the Year in 1938.

Sandy P,

Well if they do not take the french with them, I want a "do over"

In December 2002 Fischer had the opinion that the UN-resolution 1441 was good enough for military action in Iraq. I guess Schröder stopped him and Fischer was too weak and changed his mind in January 2003. Schröder used anti-American rhetoric but not Fischer. But Fischer sat there and said nothing against it. In the end he was nothing more than Schröder's puppet.

Very civilized discussion here.

"Unhinged" describes Ray and David as Nazis and "Sandy P" assumes that Germany is getting aggressive (and Nazi?) again or what does "we're taking bets on how long before they fall and who they're going to take with them...." mean?
And if I understand Joe's correctly (which might not do since I am not a native speaker), then he hopes that we invade France or pick a fight with the US. If you really mean that, then you are probably full of hatred, cynicism and don't value human life.

@ WhatDoIKnow,
I have answered your first questions in this thread. You did not acknowledge that but asked more questions. It does not matter how many of your questoins I am answering, it will never be enough for you.
Why don't you answer my questions for a change? What are you afraid of?

I have answered your first questions in this thread. You did not acknowledge that but asked more questions

??????

Jorg

Saying that I am utterly perplexed by your words would be a huge understatement. Jorg dear, probably because you are so busy, you might start confusing people and discussions. Let me make it clear, you make absolutely no sense.

From your post it looks like I bombarded you with questions. When I read that I said to myself - Well, he might be right, let's read all my posts all over again. So I did that, and guess what I came up with?

I came up with two questions that I asked (hint: questions are the constructs that end with a question mark). One of the questons was a rather rethorical one - Do you really believe that Germany is a regular discussion topic for Conservatives? -, and the only other question is the one you still haven't answered: do you deny that German media and politicians used in their discourse lines that could have come straight out of Goebbels' office ?.

That's it, Jorg, that's it. Two questions, a rethorical nature one and a straight one. Are you sure you are talking to me when you complain about those "more questions" ???

Why don't you answer my questions for a change? What are you afraid of?

Jorg

If I had some doubts about your lack of understanding and logic, you graciously removed them all. I know you might get tired of what you might think are personal attacks against you, but, sorry, you make less and less sense.

Why in the world would I answer your questions to NRO ?? Jorg, I said on 'July 06, 2006 at 06:33 PM' that I don't agree with Denis Boyles: comparing Fischer to Goebbels is indeed wrong. It has the unwanted effect of minimizing the real horrors encouraged by the Nazi propaganda. Why would I answer (or defend) words I don't agree with in the first place ???

Jorg, in all seriousness, there can be only two explanations for your obvious confusion: you either are indeed busy and mix up things (in which case I wouldn't comment if I were you), or you have an absolutely disastrous grasp on logic. I tend to believe it's rather the latter one.

@ Mike H.

unhinged, that added nothing to the discussion.

My point is: Nazi comparisons never add anything to a discussion!

Comparing Fischer to Goebbels is just as stupid as comparing Bush to Hitler. I find it amusing that in almost any heated discussion someone is going to make some idiotic Nazi comparison, thereby making a fool of themselves.

Now you can go back to talking about Hitler, Goebbels, Fischer, Busch, Himmler, Rommel, Merkel, Hess, Blair, Heydrich, Putin, Ribbentrop, Saddam, Goering, Chirac, Speer, ...


One more thing: If anything, shouldn't Fischer be compared to Ribbentrop because he was the foreign minister? I guess Denis Boyles doesn't know his Nazis.

That's important, folks: If you're going to make any Nazi comparisons be sure to use the right Nazis!

Adolf Hitler (head of state) could be compared to: Merkel, Bush, Blair, Putin, Chirac, Stalin (this might actually be appropriate), etc.
Rudolf Hess (Hitler's deputy) should be used for comparisons with Vice Chancellors and Vice Presidents
Joachim von Ribbentrop (foreign minister) should be compared to: Fischer, Rice, Steinmeier, Straw, etc.
Joseph Goebbels (propaganda minister) is appropriate for: White House Speaker, Speaker of the German Chancellor, etc.

Come on, guys, go get your high school history books and study up!

unhinged, "I find it amusing that in almost any heated discussion someone is going to make some idiotic Nazi comparison, thereby making a fool of themselves.

Now you can go back to talking about Hitler, Goebbels, Fischer, Busch, Himmler, Rommel, Merkel, Hess, Blair, Heydrich, Putin, Ribbentrop, Saddam, Goering, Chirac, Speer, ..."

I don't think that I'll say anything, I think that you've covered it all. ;)

What Do I KNOW:"Secondly, comparing Fischer to Goebbels is indeed wrong. It has the unwanted effect of minimizing the real horrors encouraged by the Nazi propaganda. "

Nazi propaganda engendered some true horrors. It was because of their use of lies to make their points.

How is the current MSM in Germany different? They're using the same tactics and getting horrific results. I agree that the results aren't life-threatening... YET... but they will be down the road if something isn't done to stop it.

When I've had a argument with a German teenager who insisted that I was to be pitied because I did not have access to the "truth" because US media was under Bush control (gasp! choke! snorkle!) and had to POINT OUT to her that I was talking to her via computer and had access to then entire world wide web of information, things are getting VERY bad in Germany. A teenager who is brainwashed to THAT degree that she can't see the obvious (that I obviously had access to the WWW!), something very serious indeed is going on in Germany. And if it isn't turned around soon, it could end up making Hitler's entire crew look like Boy Scouts.

How is the current MSM in Germany different? They're using the same tactics and getting horrific results.

LC Mamapajamas

It's true, the tactics are very similar and the results are indeed sometimes disastrous. One of the differences though is that the Nazis were using their propaganda machine for justifying their wars, while present day German media believes they should use propaganda for creating "peace and uderstanding" in the world. (Sure, it's beyond stupid, but it is a notable difference).

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