« Appeasing Oppressors: A Proud German Tradition Continues | Main | Germans: U.S. More Dangerous than Iran »

Comments

The answer is clear: Germany must change. Swabians must eschew the schweinenschnitzel for the lammenschniztel. Woman teachers should wear the Burqa (or at least a veil) and avoid talkback to their natural superiors whom Allah has placed above them (aka male students).

face it, your fellow countrymen and women and its are suicidal.
you have to give it up and become proactive, did you notice that I didnt say "selfserving"?
Its not your job to save stupid adults from themselves, that's God's job. If they want to open the gates of hell and invite the enemy into their homes jsut to serve their idiot egos, let em. They will always call you a nazi and mean-spirited, but youre an idiot if you think that youre never going to actually physically fight for what is good in your life.
liberals are assholes with a death wish. They never ever ever admit that the Weimar is what created Hitler, they'll never admit that while they drank themselves to death in Berlin, it was the blood of the next generation they were drinking. Nope, it was all whitey, every effing bit of it.
Any attempt to hold anyone responsible for the shithole they came from is meanie racism, and any attept to fix their shitholes for them is even more "cultural genocide".
Face it, they are beyond logic and reason and are at your neck. Your pretense of respect for "logical discourse" with the enemy is a pipe dream, they just simply don't give a shit what you think and are wasting their entire idiot lives to gnaw at your freeedom and rights.

there's always two sides to a story, except your side is illegal.

Ah. I wondered if/when you'd get around to this. My understanding is that this has been going on for years. Your demographics suck.

You're going have to break up the schools. We did it. We called it 'busing'. No more ethnic hegemony.

Oh, in a lot of the jursidictions here - truant kids? disruptive kids? The parents are held accountable.

@playertwo
liberals are assholes with a death wish.

That's a keeper.

So what exactly are the state regulators supposed to do? Are they appointed or elected? Maybe the teachers should just pull a Galic stunt and go on strike.

"Mr Schauble conceded, however, that Europeans must share some of the blame for the failed integration of Muslims in Europe, also in his country, saying 'Germans must understand that foreigners are not a threat.'"

Yea, right. Mr. Schauble should learn what a dhimmi is so he'll know what to call himself.

thanks pamela, sorry for the stress dump..
in an effort to bolster the German birthrate, might I suggest:
http://www.mysterymethod.com/downloads/Chapter_31.pdf

its deeper than you think and the guy's pretty astute.

I'm sure no one will be surprised to hear that SPON's take on this (in an opinion piece, of course) is that it's not as bad as it sounds because -- you got it -- it's worse in the US.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,409876,00.html

Germany's School of Hard Knocks

By Marc Young

"Recent revelations about a violence-plagued high school in Berlin have Germans worried about the state of their country's education system, the decay of modern society and the poor integration of foreigners. But are things really that bad and are Germany's immigrants to blame?"

Are things really that bad?

"One Rütli teacher even told SPIEGEL that he often dreamed one of the out of control teens would "finally burn the place down" so he wouldn't have to face another day working there."

That sounds pretty bad to me.

Ah, but let's not get carried away. I mean, it could be worse.

"The letter created an immediate uproar across the country. How could this happen? The ensuing frenzy by the German media made the Rütli school sound like it could rival the worst inner-city schools in the United States."

After all:

"Neukölln is not South Central LA..." and "...the neighborhood and its schools certainly can't compare with downtown Detroit. No one is getting shot on a daily basis..."

"The kids at the Rütli are without a doubt disrespectful, destructive and uncivilized. But..."

But? BUT? Let me guess, it's not their fault.

"...such uncouth youths are a problem wherever apathetic and disengaged parents fail to care for their children."

Pamela said: "Oh, in a lot of the jursidictions here - truant kids? disruptive kids? The parents are held accountable."

Accountability? Hmmm, maybe you're on to something.

But, remember, folks, things aren't that bad.

"While not as bad as they are made out to be, Germany shouldn't wait until things get worse before it tackles the problems exposed by the Rütli school affair."

That's helpful advice.

@Pamela, at least someone recognizes part of the problem:

"Cem Özdemir, a Turkish-German member of the European Parliament, pointed out in a SPIEGEL ONLINE commentary last week that this has, in effect, exacerbated efforts to integrate foreigners into German society, since the children of immigrants and the children of middle-class Germans have very little contact with each other in the country's school system."

Did someone say "busing?" Of course, busing won't be quite as effective due to the structure of the German primary education system -- it separates the "have's" from the "have not's" at a very early age: 4th grade. To be blunt, after that the university bound kids (yeah, they make that choice when they are 9 years old) are separated into a group and go to Gymnasium, the future "Beamter" (I'm being facetious, here) go on to Realschule, and the future assembly-line workers, skinheads, and unemployeds (again, being facetious) go on to Hauptschule. Busing kids from one Gymnasium to another, I think, misses the point.


German teachers can't go on strike. The are "Beamte" and as such don't have that right.

The problem is that kids of foreign parents don't speak the language, when they come to school. Their parents either don't speak German or they don't care if their kids speak German or both. Don't speaking the language in which the lesson is the kids don't learn very much. But German teachers can't teach 20 kids German and while doing this teach all 30 kids the rest of the curriculum. There just isn't enough time for that.

And by the way, you got "Beamte" in all kinds of jobs, some with a college degree, some with just a Hauptschulabschluss. All the teachers are "Beamte" and all of them hold a college degree.

It’s not true that Germany has a problem with immigrants per se. Germany (as well as the rest of Europe and also countries like Australia) has a problem with Muslim immigrants, mainly from Turkey and Arab countries, but also from the Kosovo region in the former Yugoslavia. (There are also problems with young ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union, but this is a different and somewhat complex issue).

There are no significant problems with immigrants from countries like Italy, Spain or Greece.

On the other hand, there are immigrants from countries like Vietnam who excel in education. A recent study showed that in the east German State of Thuringia, 63 per cent of students of Vietnamese origin attend Gymnasium (which is the branch of the school system which leads to a higher education). This is way above average. In the US, I believe, they would be called a “model minority”.

It should also be noted that you are not destined to receive an inferior education once you enter Hauptschule or Realschule. If you perform well, there is no problem whatsoever to change for, instance, from a Realschule to a Gymnasium (I have seen this happening numerous times when I attended Gymnasium in the mid 80ies).

It is, of course, hard to perform well at a school where the majority of students think the teacher is a slut because she doesn’t wear a headscarf.

The merging of the traditional 3-branch school system to a comprehensive school (Gesamtschule) is, by the way, usually advocated by leftwing politicians and leftwing unions (like the teachers union GEW).

The main attacking point must be the parents of those immigrant children. Just like the conservatives realized, more laws have to be enacted creating additional duties for those parents. How about the duty to ensure a coordinative behavior of their children at school? If they continuously violate that duty, their right of custody (Sorgerecht) could be detracted.

Or enact fines for the parents not willing to take part in german language courses, as Stoiber suggested.

I m more than happy to see that mulit-kulti-myth breaking up to pieces now. Its the only way those problems can be solved.

isegrim said: "The merging of the traditional 3-branch school system to a comprehensive school (Gesamtschule) is, by the way, usually advocated by leftwing politicians and leftwing unions (like the teachers union GEW)."

Well, apparently not everything that comes out of their mouths is useless, then.

"It should also be noted that you are not destined to receive an inferior education once you enter Hauptschule or Realschule. If you perform well, there is no problem whatsoever to change for, instance, from a Realschule to a Gymnasium (I have seen this happening numerous times when I attended Gymnasium in the mid 80ies)."

My understanding is that, in practice, this is not accurate -- at least, not these days. For a number of reasons, it is much, much more difficult for someone not originally slotted into the Gymnasium track to get an abitur. Not impossible, but not very easy, either.

isegrim said: "German teachers can't go on strike. The are "Beamte" and as such don't have that right."

Hmmm, too bad doctors aren't Beamte.

Doctors in clinics vote to strike (03/16/2006)
http://www.campusgermany.de/english/10.7615.1.5.html

Hospital doctors in Germany strike over pay and conditions
http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1733033,00.html

German doctors' strike in third week
http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/Business/20060407/300086.html

From what I understand, busing in the US had a lot of families moving to the suburbs or simply paying for their children to go to private schools, which meant that the separation of haves and have-nots began at 1st grade.

For a number of reasons, it is much, much more difficult for someone not originally slotted into the Gymnasium track to get an abitur. Not impossible, but not very easy, either.

It's not that difficult. If you go to a Realschule and get your Mittlere Reife you can go to a Aufbaugymnasium and make your abitur within another three years. Sometimes the number of subjects you can study at university is diminished but you can choose which Aufbaugymnasium you take so that that isn't really disadvantage.
If you are on a Hauptschule, you can go on to the Mittlere Reife in another two years and from there the same way as every other student of a Realschule.
It is also possible to change from one school to another before getting a diploma. That can be a little bit more difficult because the curricula aren't exactly the same so you have some learning to do. But I know people who have done it, without losing any time.

flux said: "From what I understand, busing in the US had a lot of families moving to the suburbs or simply paying for their children to go to private schools, which meant that the separation of haves and have-nots began at 1st grade."

I think you are confusing "choice" with "requirement."

Nevertheless, where I lived, moving to the suburbs didn't get you out of anything as long as you went to a public school. Busing wasn't just something they did in the "inner city." They did it everywhere.

As for private schools, well, they've had those for a long time -- long before busing. People have always sent their kids to private schools for various reasons -- and keeping their kid out of public schools was always a big one (it's also why some parents home school their kids -- something that is still allowed in the US).

I can't say for a fact whether or not private school enrollment went up with the advent of busing (and, for enrollment to increase, the number of private schools would have to increase, too) -- anyone have any statistics? I do know that it is, and always has been, very expensive to go to private schools -- so, it's never going to be a practical option for everyone. Nevertheless, it *is* an option.

Btw, they've got private schools in Germany, too, don't they. I believe "International" schools are private. There aren't many, but there are some.

Scott_H

"For a number of reasons, it is much, much more difficult for someone not originally slotted into the Gymnasium track to get an abitur. Not impossible, but not very easy, either"

Being able to study at university isnt supposed to be very easy in germany. There are enough fools attending to universities already , it need not be even more. (for eaxample: it seems to be a lot easier to get access to university in the eastern part of europe, and via european programs they can study at german universities)

Dave: "Being able to study at university isnt supposed to be very easy in germany."

That isn't my point at all. That's an entirely different issue.

However, it shouldn't be a surprise that there are "enough fools" at German universities since it's basically free to attend. The term "professional student" fits all too well in too many cases.

Students who need more time than the "Regelstudienzeit", the normal time it takes a student, to get his diploma, have had to pay extra fees for some time now. In some states tuition fees are going to be introduced in the next one or two years.

isegrim said: "The merging of the traditional 3-branch school system to a comprehensive school (Gesamtschule) is, by the way, usually advocated by leftwing politicians and leftwing unions (like the teachers union GEW)."

In the UK we have comprehensive schools. At least in theory. They are known as 'bog standard' with the very rare exception. There are a few good comprehensives, but the quality public schools are called grammar schools and are selective. Very similar to Gymnasiums I'm sure. We also have a huge and very expensive private school sector. Much larger than the equivalent private school sectors in either the US or Germany, I think. It's because of parental anxiety about their kids being dumped into a comprehensive school.

Scott_H
"That isn't my point at all. That's an entirely different issue."

The point is, we already discuss an entirely different issue - we got way off topic here :)

The German school system really is actually quite heterogenous. There are places in Germany where the 3-branch system practically has been replaced by a comprehensive school (Gesamtschule). Oftentimes you can choose between a Gesamtschule, a Hauptschule, a Realschule and a Gymnasium. And there are many other options available. It could be argued that what is special about the German school is that it is rather complicated.

Again, in my opinion, those who want to get rid of the 3-branch system to solve the big problems with immigrants in education such as the now infamous Ruetli Hauptschule in Berlin have in fact a different agenda: For them the mere thought that young Muslims themselves might be the problem just isn't acceptable because it's politcally incorrect.

They still fancy a wonderful carnival of cultures in which immigrants from all over the world come to Europe, living a prosperous life in peace and harmony.

While I believe that the educational system in Germany should be a matter of debate, I don't believe this is the core issue. Those who tell you so do it because they cannot accept the fact that their mulitcultural wonderland has fallen apart.

Take for instance the Netherlands: Youth unemployment ist about 6 per cent overall, but about 40 per cent among young immigrants from North Africa (many aren't really immigrants, since they were born in the Netherlands). And the Dutch go out of their way to provide for an equal-opportunity, non-discriminatory education system.

Pamela wrote
"You're going have to break up the schools. We did it. We called it 'busing'. No more ethnic hegemony. "

Now if you think I will allow the government to bus my daughter into an arabic/ turkish suburb of Germany where she has to go to school with violent little Achmeds and Mehmeds, who insult and maybe rape her , then your're dead wrong.
If that happens or if they even think about doing this I know who I will be voting for in the next election.


J.T.

"Now if you think I will allow the government to bus my daughter into an arabic/ turkish suburb of Germany where she has to go to school with violent little Achmeds and Mehmeds, who insult and maybe rape her , then your're dead wrong.
If that happens or if they even think about doing this I know who I will be voting for in the next election."

lol, and you wouldnt be the only one! this way we might end up getting rid of the immigration problem too ;)

I've only recently found this blog site and find it very interesting as we hear very little about Germany in our U.S. media these days.

I've been following this situation in the German schools and it is interesting to read the comments.

The answer to the question about busing is Yes, there were many private schools that started up in response to busing. It is not a particularly good answer to your problem. The quality of our public schools has gone down in the past thirty years, even with valiant efforts to the contrary. Many cities and towns have quit busing due to the extra expense and to public sentiments.

We saw the answer to the problem of racial integration as material solutions involving more money, moving children around to the detriment of neighborhoods and bringing bad feelings all around. The answer to our particular racial problem was a change in the individual's view of the colored person. It seems this was easier for the U.S. as the blacks were a part of our national identity as Americans with the same religion, mores and customs.

The root of the German problem with the Muslim children, which by the way is happening in varying degrees all over the West, is a huge culture clash, exacerbated by the Islamic ideology and world view. The danger is that Muslims have higher birth rates than Europeans and Americans and will in the future be the majority in our countries.

Scott H.
Ah, yes, the U.S. is even worse. When I showed this to the moonbat that works in our office she said the exact same thing. "It's worse in Detroit."

This is the standard BS line - until you get in their face and give them the demographics in Detroit - one of the highest Muslim populations in the U.S.

See, they're more than willing to denigrate blacks as dysfunctional now that Muslims are being 'victimized' by BushMcChimpHitler, so they get a pass.

The only reason she didn't call me a facist is that I can fire her ass. And have her deported back to Canada where she says she really belongs.

As for busing in the U.S.

I brought that up in a somewhat facetious manner. It was instituted under a legal banner that said 'separate but equal' is a fraud. So the courts mandated that the schools be racially integrated. In the public school system, the school kids attend depends entirely on where they live. A good school can materially raise the value of housing. Schools are funded by taxes.

Well, guess what? Blacks tended to be poorer than whites, so their schools were deemed less good. So, the black kids got bused to the white schools.

In some ways it did nobody any good and in some ways it was a little miracle.

What really ended the whole thing is that blacks got wealthy - and moved into the same neighborhoods as whites. And lo and behold! The world did not come to an end.

So by 1987 my Jewish stepdaughter went to her senior prom with a black kid from the Bahamas. Who was, by the way, an absolute hunk.

Just sayin'.

In reaction, ZDF broadcast a very long news story showing an example of a good German school where all these problems have been solved. The anchor said they were doing this so that people would not get the impression that all schools were like the Ruetli Elementary School in Berlin.
That is the kind of reporting of both sides of the story that is almost completely missing when it comes to reporting about the US here in Germany.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

August 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
            1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31