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It has become axiomatic in much of Europe that transnationalism is holier than any nationalism. Nationalism is falsely perceived as the primary contributing factor to National Socialism, and is thus regarded as ever suspect.

This goes some way to explain the almost complete inattention to UN corruption. The transnationalist is, by reason of that alone, morally superior to the merely nationalist. There is no vice of the transnationalist which cannot be excused; there is no virtue of the nationalist which cannot be reinterpreted as tyrannical. It's a rather 16 y/o's view of morality, eh?

I think that the author and AVI make good points. But I think there is another angle to this. I think that Germans, along with the French, were looking forward to a United States of Europe. Both Germany and France believe that a United States of Europe is good for them because they are the economic 500 lbs gorillas that would dominate the smaller countries and European politics. It is easier to give up your self identity and join a collective if you end up being the Commissar.

I think this slant on transnationalism is the reason why the Germans went bonkers when Rummy suggested that the U.S. was getting kicked in the groin by “old Europe.” They are old Europe with a new hair-do. Rummy outed them.

Germans, Americans aren't proud of you, either. Sit in your rocking chairs until German Muslims bury you. Goethe, Brahms, Schiller, Beethoven, Mendelssohn-Bartoldy, Bach, Gauss, and the many others, we Americans will remember them for you.

There's shortages of milk, sugar, flour, and coffee in Venezuela.

Glad they are proud.

But that remains to be seen.

Hmmm, mostly former Soviet Union countries.

Sorry, but also here i dont see much sense in your way of "reasoning".
Lets take your general pride numbers...
America 17.7
Australia (17.5), Austria (17.4), South Africa (17), Canada (17), Chile (17.1), New Zealand (16.6) and Israel (16.2).

Ok ... you claim "I guess this result goes a long way to explain the animosity of large parts of the German public vis-à-vis the U.S.. Germans view patriotism with considerable distrust."
So ... why is there no "Antiaustralianism" ? After all the numbers are allmost the same !
It doesnt really get much more reasonable when you look at national pride.
I think it would perhaps be better if you stated that this table doesnt correspond to the view GERMANS have about the level of patriotism of the countries mentioned.
I do not think that germans think austrias people are nearly as pride as americans !
Thats more the point !

then you claim that: "Anti-Americanism in Germany is just a way of expressing frustration about the misery at home and the success story abroad.."
Thats the old "jealousy" claim.
Although i think it DOES often have to do with it i disagree again with your reasoning here.
Lets see.....
Germans are mostly pacifists so they wont really be jealous about the us military.
What success stories could you then be refering about ?
Economy ?
Do you really think the average german has any clue about the economy of the usa ?
The only thing they (think they) "know" is that there is a huge deficit.

Sorry.... i think your reasoning here is too simple, too polemic if not to say to "antigerman" ;-P

Modern antiamericanism (in my view) is more often related to that "idealistic" world view many germans adobted during the last 40 years of us protection. They simply have lost contact to the horrors of this world.

Not to rub salt on the wound...oh, okay, I'll rub. The US Men's National Soccer Team (as of Feb 2006) is now ranked 6th in the world. They are tied for 6th place with Spain and Mexico. With 765 points, the US is only *4 points* behind 4th place Argentina. Argentina!

The US is undefeated in international competition since having qualified last year for the World Cup finals in Germany this summer. They just beat Poland on Tuesday playing in a blinding snowstorm in Germany. They play the German MNT on March 22 in Dortmund.

To further put this in perspective, ranked *behind* the US is: #9 England, #10 Portugal, #12 Italy, and current European Champions #19 Greece.

Germany is tied with Greece for 19th place; although, after losing to Italy 4-1, they may not be members of the top 20 much longer. They'll certainly help their cause if they can pull out a tie or a win against the US later this month.

Guess who'll I'll be rooting for?

There are simple reasons why there is no reason to be proud of germany these days. Being governed by 16 different states and a federal government in almost every political field does not lead to progressive development. Lack of progressive development leads to frustration and kills off all pride.

Secondly there is a lack of a straight political party, that is willing to start a new offense. The constitution is a joke, and 17 secrect services (1 Bundesamt and 16 Landesämter für Verfassungsschutz) guard this joke by persecuting anyone, who would like to introduce a better one.

What is needed here is a strong foe and a great war, as wars tend to solve problems. Believe it or not, from the people I know, its only women which love peace here. And that is certainly not specifically german. Most men I know who are interested in politics agree to the need of a war.

I forgot something very important about my impressions: I was talking about young men like from 18-30, most older are also peace lovers. But hey, one day, we ll take over!

@Dave

Could you elaborate a little on the people/groups/forces that would like to introduce a better constitution to Germany and are being persecuted by the German secret service? Any examples? And what kind of war do you have in mind? Do you think that what Germany needs right now is a civil war? Or would any old war do?

I think if you polled the American Left, you'd find the same self-hatred. Every left winger (i don't call them "liberal" since they don't believe in liberty) I know thinks America is the biggest bully in the world, etc. Some like Johnny Depp have even moved to France, a country that is a far greater bully in Africa! Yet he sees no hypocrisy in this.

It's been said in this blog before, but I suppose I will say it again. Germans and Americans have, as a rule, completely different views of what the State should do, and what it shouldn't do. Many Germans believe second nature that if there is a problem to be solved, the government needs to solve it. Moreover, States / Goverments generally do not tend to get smaller over time; quite the opposite. The Germans have built a Nanny State with accompanying bureaucracy that is second to none, and as indicated, has only grown larger. I have unfortunately in recent months had some first-hand experience with this. I'm surprised they haven't introduced an Amt für ämtliche Amtsübersicht yet just to keep track of what they all are supposed to be doing. If you haven't lived here and dealt with it, it is hard to imagine. In Germany, the State completely destroys any semblence of initiative, individual self-sufficiency, and for that matter, pride. How can you be proud of a stifling bureaucracy that subsidizes failure and punishes success? Besides that, the Germans are World-Class complainers.... a real glass-half-empty crowd (BTW - most frequent complaint: "Why doesn't the goverment do something about this?"). I must say these results do not surprise me in the least.

And they discovered that those countries who faced terrorist attacks were more proud than those without. The former German President Johannes Rau once said that a patriot is someone who loves the fatherland and a nationalist is someone who loves his fatherland, but disrepects other nations. Then there is that honest pride and then there's other pride, which is engrained into you the moment your born. I think pride is not that simple to answer, albeit overzealous confidence disguises true weaknesses.

I am proud of Germany's many unnoticed positive efforts in the world, especially in development in the southern hemisphere and not for greed, but actually helping people who direly need it. Not to mention the outpouring of donations from German citizens after the tsunami - the most worldwide. And for once having made the right decision against war! I am proud of that, really proud and probably many others more.

Another German president, Heinemann (Rau's mentor), when he was asked whether he loves Germany, answered: "I don't love a state, I love my wife."

People who are proud of a nation remind me of soccer fans who are proud of their team. Arme Würstchen ("poor little sausages = poor fools"), but at least they can choose their favourite club by themselves and are not born into it.

@David

>Anti-Americanism in Germany is just a way of expressing frustration about the misery at home and the success story abroad...

Germany: No.1 in exports, No. 4 in Innovation; No. 6 in individual freedom (the last two in world-wide benchmark studies). I'm not sure how solid the results of these studies are, but your talk about "misery" and "success story abroad" seems to be just another example for negative patriotism. ("WE are the MOST miserable people in the WHOLE world, and we are PROUD that we know that!")

Note from David: Ask the average German which macro-economic data are important to him, and he most likely will answer "jobs" and "income growth". Your rankings for these variables? Exports and innovation are nothing people care much about.

>And while most Germans criticize the U.S. for the war in Iraq, it's clear to everyone that the German military couldn't even conquer Liechtenstein these days.

Hmmm, would you prefer they could conquer France and other parts of Europe again?

Note from David: I'd prefer folks who understand the meaning of this. Fortunately, most readers of this blog do.

"Hmmm, would you prefer they could conquer France and other parts of Europe again?"

Ha, I was thinking about the same :)
Of course they wouldnt prefer it - but I would!
A good military helps in convincing neighboring countries. Hopefully, we can build one as fast as in the 1930s again, should the need arise.

As an American, all this German bashing is embarrassing. And I’m not easily embarrassed nor a touchy feely sensitive type. To days German is a product of natural German tendencies, a bad 100 years, and the frictions of socialism leaving each generation a bigger bill. We know in the States, plenty of the same socialism can be found here. Ask any tradesmen or small business owner who has the leftist American welfare state attached to his carotid artery like a huge malignant leach.

Almost thirty years ago I attended a CIA seminar entitled “Methods of Control”. It was about how the Soviets/Communist controlled their population through non-physical means. One of the methods, which stood out, was induced mass depression. The population was always to be harassed with cold, shortages, physical fatigue. People who are tired, depressed, fatalistic are self enslaving. This is why true revolutions occur after periods of wealth expansion, people feel free and energized to risk taking on the state. When I am in Germany, there is to me an air of mild depression. Granted I am a ridiculously positive American, but I try to calibrate for that. This educed malaise is to the benefit of the existing socialist. The socialist need people to look to them and not to think that the average German citizen can just take off and decide for them selves, not that they can with the rules and regulations or unbelievable to an American, and I live in Massachusetts which isn’t exactly a free enterprise state. New York city regulations would be a walk in the park for most Germans.

So, we must support Germans who wish to have a somewhat freer Germany such that natural talents can occur. I think that we all can agree that present socialism has gone past the point of using state power to assist desperate sectors of society and has now become a self-feeding beast that is morally and materially destructive. Coupled with this mobster of the large state we have the Muslim threat, unlike any we’ve seen before and likely to continue in many forms for the next 100 years.

The world is as it is, and Germans are as they are and they are not us, but they are not our enemy. It is wrong and insulting and if I was a German, I’d be some people’s faces and rightly so.

Europe is in a flux state and whatever rate of socialism is decreasing if not reversing. Just think how difficult it is in the US to stem, stop or reverse the rise of the state, and imagine Europe. Furthermore Germans have to deal with the EU in Brussels plus like us, the UN. So, the average Germans plate is full and he is getting it from all direction. It will take the US, if it does, a hundred years to liberate itself from our entrenched socialism. Europe longer. So we might as well settle in for the long haul and, as I like to do, have some fun making the lefties scream.

This letter should provide some perspective on American pride.
ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS.

patriotism in the U.S. is running high, while Germans aren't particularly proud of their country

Funny you should mention it. It seems that patriotism among German Medienkritik bloggers is running particularly low. Your headline Deutschland, Deutschland unter alles... and the two eagles say it all. Instead of being alarmed you seem to be quite gleeful about the findings. And this posting is just one example. Most of them follow the simple pattern: "German [put noun here] bad - American [put same noun here] good." It's almost like a competition of who has the worst things to say about Germany. Even I am more patriotic than that and I'm one of those German liberals you hate so much and who apparently are exceedingly unpatriotic.

@ Gerd:

“I am proud of Germany's many unnoticed positive efforts in the world, especially in development in the southern hemisphere”

Are you talking about Germany’s colonial contributions to Africa? Namibia, Uganda and Tanzania...(100,000 natives dead during German pacification.)..... or are you saying that Germany is responsible for Australia’s and New Zealand’s prosperity...or are you claiming that German genes were responsible for creating Southern Hemisphere beauty, Giesel Buendchen?

“Not to mention the outpouring of donations from German citizens after the tsunami - the most worldwide.”

Didn’t Yukos vice president, Gerhard Schroeder, coin the phrase “check-book diplomacy.” What was more effective in helping the victims of the tsunami? German pledges to come up with 5 billion dollars....or the dispatch of an American aircraft carrier with badly needed helicopters, food and medical personnel?

“And for once having made the right decision against war! I am proud of that, really proud and probably many others more”

When did your pride start to wane?... after Madrid, London, when Theo Van Gogh got his throat cut or when Paris got turned into a Peugeot bon fire?

Scott, Scott, Scott ... FIFA ratings are as worthless as teats on a boarhog. I may support the U.S. MNT, but if I were laying a bet I would take England or Italy over them any day. Also, the U.S. is tied with Mexico even though the U.S. has beaten them something like 8 out of the last 9 times, including the 2nd round of the last WC. In any case we'll see for sure when Italy plays the U.S. in the 1st round of the WC this summer.

Dave wrote:
> What is needed here is a strong foe and a great war, as wars tend to solve problems. Believe it or not, from the people I know, its only women which love peace here. And that is certainly not specifically german. Most men I know who are interested in politics agree to the need of a war. <

@Dave:
you must be seriously out of your mind. i am disgusted. maybe you should leave the strange little world inside your twisted head and face reality. next time try to think at least a little before posting stuff like that.

Gary from Jersey

Lovely post.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."

Do you have ANY idea how freaked out the Mom in front of you in the checkout line in Safeway gets when she catches a glimpse of the Glock in the shoulder holster under your jacket?

Talk about pure hysteria. Sheesh.

Pamela,
Proud citizen of the state of Virgina where we have concealed carry laws, thank the lord.

Christoph, Germans aren't breeding, they have no confidence in the future.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3376&print=1

The Return of Patriarchy

By Phillip Longman

...Yet, for more than a generation now, well-fed, healthy, peaceful populations around the world have been producing too few children to avoid population decline. That is true even though dramatic improvements in infant and child mortality mean that far fewer children are needed today (only about 2.1 per woman in modern societies) to avoid population loss. Birthrates are falling far below replacement levels in one country after the next—from China, Japan, Singapore, and South Korea, to Canada, the Caribbean, all of Europe, Russia, and even parts of the Middle East.

Fearful of a future in which the elderly outnumber the young, many governments are doing whatever they can to encourage people to have children. Singapore has sponsored “speed dating” events, in hopes of bringing busy professionals together to marry and procreate. France offers generous tax incentives for those willing to start a family. In Sweden, the state finances day care to ease the tension between work and family life. Yet, though such explicitly pronatal policies may encourage people to have children at a younger age, there is little evidence they cause people to have more children than they otherwise would. As governments going as far back as imperial Rome have discovered, when cultural and economic conditions discourage parenthood, not even a dictator can force people to go forth and multiply....

Why do you think that a low level of patriotism in a country is a bad thing?
Germany once had quite a high level of patriotism/nationalism, that was during the Nazi reighn. Do you really think, that was a good time for that country? That is why "Germans view patriotism with considerable distrust", not because they have more or less to be proud of than the US or any other country around the globe. The drawback of patriotism is always that it states "the others are not as good as we are".
In Europe self critique for a nation is kind of standard, not because there is more to criticise, but because it is part of a free democracy, to try and make your country the best it can be and that you can only do by pointing out its faults.
To call five times a day "America is great" doesn´t make it a better nation.

People who are tired, depressed, fatalistic are self enslaving. This is why true revolutions occur after periods of wealth expansion, people feel free and energized to risk taking on the state. When I am in Germany, there is to me an air of mild depression.

Agreed. I worked in Stuttgart for 3 months in 1999 and saw this (mild) depression and fatalism. But there is another side to this, Carl. Another technique which the USSR used was to demonize the other side. It is simply unthinkable, unspeakable to consider adopting some of the methods of the other side. They are verboten, evil. I see this at work in Germany as well. It reminds me of a internet discussion I had a few years ago with a German lady. She was moaning about some of Germany's woes and I made a common sense suggestion. Her response was utter shock: But that would be Reaganism!!!.

The world is as it is, and Germans are as they are and they are not us, but they are not our enemy. It is wrong and insulting and if I was a German, I’d be some people’s faces and rightly so.

Superb point, Carl. I completely agree. But look at my little story. It's not just disagreement - it's also indoctrination by most of the German media. US methods aren't merely wrong - they are evil. And by extension US leaders are evil and US citizens like you and I are sheep.

That also is wrong and insulting. Is it any wonder that some of the posters around here are in their face?

it's also indoctrination by most of the German media. US methods aren't merely wrong - they are evil. And by extension US leaders are evil and US citizens like you and I are sheep.

@Don: In the same sentence you criticize a bias angainst the US citizens and then apply exactly the same bias on Germans. They also are no sheep. Not everything the german media prints is critique on america or antiamerican.
Right now for example, there is a very pro-american discussion in german media concerning a very anti-american turkish movie (the german titel is "Tal der wölfe-Iraq" translates "Valley of wolfes-iraq"), that is truly demonizing the US army.

In european media US methods are often described as wrong, not evil. Critique on american politics is not anti-american, critique on israels politics is not antisemitic and critique on islamic fundamentalists is not anti-islam. The german media even would be anti-german indeed, if one considers how much they criticize there own politics.

@Dave

I'm still waiting for you to explain or give examples for this: The constitution is a joke, and 17 secrect services (1 Bundesamt and 16 Landesämter für Verfassungsschutz) guard this joke by persecuting anyone, who would like to introduce a better one.

Off the top of my head, I can think of three groups that wanted to "change" the constitution and were persecuted for it: the RAF, who had a nasty habit of blowing up politicians and bankers, something they were trained to do in Palestine and the GDR. The Islamo-fascists, of course. And then, there's the NPD. Now, unless there's another group you were thinking of, I am praying that you are on every no-fly list that's out there.

@Night Owl,

In the same sentence you criticize a bias angainst the US citizens and then apply exactly the same bias on Germans. They also are no sheep.

Actually I don't, here or elsewhere. My view of the German media is of course limited by my sources, which are english translations. I by no means assume that the German media is completely fixated on the US, and I DO assume that the German populace is even less obessed than the German media are.

That said, I largely see two viewpoints out of Germany and Germans. As a US citizen I'm either a Nazi or a sheep blindly led by my evil government.

About the Valley of Wolves movie, I'm not surprised that Germans are disturbed bt it. Much more so than Americans are, because to Americans it's so obviously comically twisted propoganda. That movie resembles the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

To be honest, much of what I've heard from Germans about that film is something like They're not THAT evil!. The US, that is. A bit rich coming from Michael Moore's best market, but OK. It's hardly what I would term a pro-American discussion however.....

"That said, I largely see two viewpoints out of Germany and Germans. As a US citizen I'm either a Nazi or a sheep blindly led by my evil government."

But I think that is were you are wrong. This is not the view the majority of Germans has on US citizens. Most Germans (and Austrians, as I am from this country)do have high regards for america, but does that mean, that they have to agree with current american politics?

In the "Valley of the wolves" movie: I viewed the thing also as twisted propaganda and I thought everyone must see how obviously stupified by nationalism it is. That was before I was at a cinema were the movie was showing, what scares me is not the movie itself but how many people actually believed what it showed.

Flux

The federalistic structure binds every effort made for a progress in governing the country. This needs to be abolished - that itself is impossible due to the constitution.

Also our constitution does not allow us to start a war anymore. It is one of the basic rights of every nation (if not part of its being) to do warfare. Without this right, we are damned to be a tiger without any teeth.
How are we supposed to show Iran that we dont want religious freaks supplied with nuclear arms? They can play with us without limits!

The constitution furthermore is the reason why we cant deal any harsher with the muslim minority here - every hardlining politician is forced to treat them equally with the same rights as the ordinary german has, no matter whether they would like to see our downfall.
Also our constitution does not allow us to take away the citizenship of those muslims who already immigrated, even when it is clear that they oppose our way of living.

The list is almost endless, but hopefully you got a better picture now.

The biggest joke though is stated in the preamble of the constitution: It says that the german people enacts the following constitution - this is simply a lie, it was imposed by the occupying forces after the last war. Based on this lie, I can hardly call the constitution anything else but a joke.

"The constitution furthermore is the reason why we cant deal any harsher with the muslim minority here - every hardlining politician is forced to treat them equally with the same rights as the ordinary german has, no matter whether they would like to see our downfall.
Also our constitution does not allow us to take away the citizenship of those muslims who already immigrated, even when it is clear that they oppose our way of living."

Ok, you´re telling us here, you want to get rid of your constitution, so you can opress minorities and take away citizens rights from every one, that doesn´t share your opinion.
Great, second Iran.

Germany has a law, ok, every person who commits criminal acts, gets prosecuted by that law. Why should a law abiding muslim citizen not have the same rights, as any other german? Because of Xenophobia?

Nite Owl

You confuse quite a few things here.

Germany once had quite a high level of patriotism/nationalism, that was during the Nazi reighn. Do you really think, that was a good time for that country?

Patriotism is not nationalism! I know that at some point in time patriotism has been used to incite nationalism in many EU countries. That's why the next quote is also wrong:

In Europe self critique for a nation is kind of standard, not because there is more to criticise, but because it is part of a free democracy [...]

In Europe self-criticism is indeed standard, but not because they are democracies and they want to improve (this is a very immature concept). They do it because of their dark history, because almost everyone participated in some kind of war based on blind allegiance to a nobleman/city/region etc. It is understandable that EU contries are nowadays reluctant in showing patriotism; it was in fact a distorted form of incipient patriotism that caused a lot of bloodshed in Europe.

To call five times a day "America is great" doesn´t make it a better nation

Again, massive lack of understanding. America is great not because people call it like that, but because her people make it great. Saying "America is great" is not a form of positive thinking, it is stating the truth.

Europeans, based on their own experience, believe that such a display of pride in one's nation is not something laudable; no, it can lead almost inevitably to small or large disaster. However, Americans have been saying things like "America is great" for a long time and America has not repeated the European mistakes. The EU attitude regarding America and patriotism is another example of the European unconscious arrogance: it didn't work for us, it can't possibly work for you.

Still, America proves constantly to the world that healthy patriotism, expressed by an optimistic and diligent people is possible. America is great not because of her economy, entertainment, landscape, but because Americans went a different way than Europeans. With all her shortcomings and failures, and there aren't just a few, America, has been and will be a force of good in this imperfect world.

"Patriotism is not nationalism!"

Aha, so what´s the difference??

"In Europe self-criticism is indeed standard, but not because they are democracies and they want to improve (this is a very immature concept)."

To learn from past errors is immature? :D

"They do it because of their dark history, because almost everyone participated in some kind of war based on blind allegiance to a nobleman/city/region etc. It is understandable that EU contries are nowadays reluctant in showing patriotism; it was in fact a distorted form of incipient patriotism that caused a lot of bloodshed in Europe."

America also has a dark history. Wars, genocides, surpression of minorities, just as Europe has. Why is it stupid for Europe to learn from the past and smart for the US to ignore it?

"Americans have been saying things like "America is great" for a long time and America has not repeated the European mistakes."

But it has, how about Apartheit?
Why should blindness to the past be a good thing?

"America is great not because of her economy, entertainment, landscape, but because Americans went a different way than Europeans. With all her shortcomings and failures, and there aren't just a few, America, has been and will be a force of good in this imperfect world."

Yes it is, but thats also largely due to persons who learned from the past and made it constantly a better place not to patriotism. By the way, I would in general call Europe a force of good too (though this now sounds largely immature to me), though it went a different way than America.

Nite owl

If you don't know the difference between patriotism and nationalism any further debate is absolutely useless, but still I will waste some of my time on this Saturday just to see how far your lack of understanding goes.

To learn from past errors is immature?

????? Did I say that? Are you a child, or you just have a childish understanding? Learning from the past is NOT immature. You said:

In Europe self critique for a nation is kind of standard, not because there is more to criticise, but because it is part of a free democracy, to try and make your country the best it can be and that you can only do by pointing out its faults.

Right. That's why there is no patriotism in EU. Now I know. Is that what the Lehrer told you in der Schule?

But it has, how about Apartheit?
Why should blindness to the past be a good thing?

????? Did I say that?

You say that America is great largely due to persons who learned from the past and made it constantly a better place not to patriotism.

Who said that America is a great place because of patriotism?? Of course not, it's ridiculous. Patriotism is the result of her greatness, not vice-versa.

I would in general call Europe a force of good too

Sure, and the entire 20th century proves that (well, besides WWI, WWII and communism).

Nite owl, you argue like an adolescent. Nothing bad being an adolescent aber wir sind hier nicht in der Schule.

I will simply ignore the insulting parts, and try to answer to the very small part of actual content in your post.

"But it has, how about Apartheit?
Why should blindness to the past be a good thing?

????? Did I say that?"

"Americans have been saying things like "America is great" for a long time and America has not repeated the European mistakes."

This is what you said and I answered that America has repeated many European mistakes. Read a history book!

"I would in general call Europe a force of good too

Sure, and the entire 20th century proves that (well, besides WWI, WWII and communism)."

Yes and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of pure kindness...
I said "in general", because you were making a general statement about america, leaving out the crimes it has commited. So I made a general statement on Europe, well aware of the bad things that some of its nations have done in the past.
You don´t seem to have that awareness, where the dark parts of US history are concerned. I´m very sorry for you.

to sum up WhatDoIKnow's statement:

europeans = bads guys, bad history, therefore they can't afford to be patriotic

americans = great guys, superbe history, therefore of course one fine day they realized their own greatness and became patriots

that means venezuela is the second best country in the world, since they ranked place two in the patriotism poll. :)

so, everything's in order, isn't it? everyone gets what he or she deserves. so why mock us for not being patriotic?

> Nite owl, you argue like an adolescent. Nothing bad being an adolescent aber wir sind hier nicht in der Schule. <

it's this kind of arrogance, unsupported by arguments, which we love so much about the american conservatives.

i close with a nice little quote by samuel johnson:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Hmmmm, criticism is patriotism. But why would you want your country to improve, if you don't have love of country (ie patriotism?).

I'll quote myself; who has eyes to read and mind to understand should be fine:

With all her shortcomings and failures, and there aren't just a few, America, has been and will be a force of good in this imperfect world

I don't know if alexander is talking about me when he says it's this kind of arrogance, unsupported by arguments, which we love so much about the american conservatives. I'm far from being an American Conservative. I'm in fact German, even though in the today's open-minded Germany Aussiedler aren't considered "real" Germans.

As I said, a discussion with someone who doesn't understand the differences between nationalism and patriotism is pure waste of time, thus my term of "adolescent understanding". If someone is offended by that term, he/she should first do their homework before feeling hurt. However, this is getting predictably nowhere. I am sure there are other commenters here with more patience and tact who could volunteer some educational time.

alexander, it's history.-

-- it's this kind of arrogance, unsupported by arguments, which we love so much about the american conservatives. --

--In european media US methods are often described as wrong, not evil. -

But most work, which drives them nuts.

Germany has had ample chances to apply their methods and see if they work.

--what scares me is not the movie itself but how many people actually believed what it showed. --

And why would they believe what it showed?

Maybe that's how we've been portrayed by the media and elites?

patriotism, the love for one's own country, becomes nationalism in the moment when it comes along with disrespecting other countries, ignoring their rights, identity and habits and (as a worst case) carrying war to them. (war... weapons of mass destruction and stuff... you know what i mean.)
we in germany have had some bad experiences with nationalism, therefore it's understandable that we try to avoid the good old no-brain "hurra"-patriotism practiced in the united states.

by the way, in my humble opionion criticizing your own country is also an act of patriotism. the way you may criticize a beloved person to care more for his / her health because you're seriously worried... that's exactly the same.

so there's more to patriotism than waving flags, believing your president no matter what and avoiding to pose unpleasant questions.

just my two cents from my illiterate, adolescent mind. time to educate myself some more with "date my mom" on mtv.

@Jabbbahe Tutt: I don´t need an emotional bond to my country to want to improve it. It´s the place I live in. It´s my own personal interest that it is free and has a good living standard. "Love" for humans in general is all that is needed.

@SandyP

But Germanys methods work too, and not bad at all. Watch environment politics for example.

On the movie: because of over patriotism/nationalism, in this case the turkish version.

Nite Owl

My intention is not to oppress the muslim minority in general. I was referring to those who are not willing to adopt our style of living but wish to impose theirs to us. And there is not a few out there with that kind of intention.

Lets approach the matter from the other side: Why did it never come into your mind to emigrate into a muslim country? Think about it, partially because you are not willing to adopt to their way of life. You live in a civlization and enjoy the fruits it brings.

Those muslims that come to our country are fine to me, as long as they are willing to become german when applying for german citizenship. To achieve this, a certain level of civilized behavior and the willingness to follow rules is needed. Each muslim lacking these basics is wrong here. And its because of those that we need a new constitution to properly handle them.

See we have a way of life, we have established a unified society, we are enlightened and have managed to keep religions out of the state - do you really want to watch and (by doing nothing) hand this over to a bunch of barbarians?

@Night Owl,

“Germany once had quite a high level of patriotism/nationalism….”
After WWI and the depression, the Nazis used the natural desires of a people to have pride in their country. German feelings of patriotism were no more wrong than their desire for security, fresh air and science all of which the Nazis captured, channeled and abused in their leadership. But that doesn’t mean that those basic feelings are not and were not decent.

Germans are and should be proud and comfortable of their nation. They have made Germany what it is today. A prosperous, lawful, democratic nation that is a solid keystone of western liberties and thoughts, and will continue so into the foreseeable future so much as God lets mortal men order their affairs. Frankly, I think Germans should be more overtly patriotic. If people cannot handle it, that is their problem.


@Don,
I was thinking more about Germans who comment here, who by and large are in a general way in accordance with us. One of the things I enjoy have a few beers in a German pub is dealing with their perceptions they have with life in the US. I totally admit, as best as I can, the bad and the good. I think for the German everyman who hasn’t spent some time in the US, they just have what we say, “no idea”, but as you said they think they do, honestly, based on the information they have gotten from the German media. I don’t think the German media distorts because they are Germans and we Americans as much as they are really entrenched leftist. An American reporter would be interchangeable with his German counterpart. ( Gross generalization here.)

@Dave: The problem I had with your statement, was that you wanted to take their civil rights away from them. That is not ok. If someone really doesn´t integrate and commits acts, that are by german law a crime, he will be prosecuted, and rightly so. Same thing for criminal germans.
No need to create a constitution that devides in germans and Untermenschen (sorry, but that was what your statement sounded like)

@Carl: Maybe there is a positive patriotism somewhere, but so far I´ve only been in contact with its dark sides. In Turkei for example, there is a law against "Isults of turkdom". People go to prison there, because they criticize their nation.
Maybe I would think differently if I had ever seen a positive patriotism, but to me, it seems just a way to put oneself above other human beings for no other reason, than ones nationality.

Würschten

"People who are proud of a nation remind me of soccer fans who are proud of their team. Arme Würstchen ("poor little sausages = poor fools"), but at least they can choose their favourite club by themselves and are not born into it."

Whats up liar?

Yeah, who would be particualy proud of a their nationality that mass murdered ethnic minorities and invaded independent nations in the name of national socialism just 3 generations ago.

Hitler is dead, but he brought socialism to Germany where it yet remains.

Buckeye Abroad

That genocide is not nessessarily a reason for not being proud of our nationality at all. Its only a reason when you keep concentrating on the negative aspects. If you take a look on positive aspects, you may quickly find reasons to be proud of - even in the last two wars. We have fought against half of the world for example - 2 times within a few decades - and that was a close struggle in both cases. After napoleon`s france no other people has actually proven to be capable of such a struggle.

And how many countries in the world would be at the point that we are today, after what germany looked like in 1945? Every city completely destructed, millions captured or killed, hated by every neighboring people - and now no other country exports more goods than we do. I do not forget that the climate of the cold war made achieving this easier, but i doubt that any other country would have achieved as much as we did in the last 60 years.

If we hadnt such a binding constitution, we would quickly be capable of pursuing our goals by military means, too.

> Hitler is dead, but he brought socialism to Germany where it yet remains. <

@Buckeye:
uummmhhmmm, yes... you got it exactly right. ;) hitler brought socialism to germany. ^^
maybe you should grab a good history book, one that not only contains "american history", but also the european one, and read it carefully. now, that you've already got a book in your hands, please look up the word "socialism". you're right, socialism is also part of the word national socialism, but it's a little more difficult than that.

a socialist state is by definition a state on its way to become a communist state. believe me, germany is not even near to becoming communist. we have a social democratic and socialist parties here, but they all exist within a normal democratic system similar to the northern american one.

> Yeah, who would be particualy proud of a their nationality that mass murdered ethnic minorities and invaded independent nations in the name of national socialism just 3 generations ago. <

i think Carl Spackler pretty much found the right words to settle all this, but i still have to reply to this. :)
the united states have had some experiences with ethnic minorities as well (eradication of natives and enslavement of africans), but i guess that's due to the fact that americans were in fact in most cases europeans. :)
that's of course not meant to relativate the mass murdering of jews the germans commited in world war two.
nowadays we got a country which invades independent nations in the name of freedom and to spread the blessing of western civilisation... and of course to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction. :)

cheers.

> If we hadnt such a binding constitution, we would quickly be capable of pursuing our goals by military means, too. <

@Dave:

you're really worrying me. what do you mean by "our goals"? are you talking about the goals of you and your friends at the npd (just a guess, no offense intended)? ... like, kicking out foreigners of the country and taking back some of former german territory in france and poland?

what concerns me, you can go to that war alone. germans should be wiser than that after two terrible world wars, and a war is never something to be especially proud of, save a defensive one or one which is meant to liberate an oppressed country.

but i guess on the internet everybody can have his say, even the ones who live in a past seventy years gone.

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