« SPIEGEL Interviews Karen Hughes: The "Squandered Solidarity" Myth | Main | Coming to Germany Soon... »

Comments

@James W.

>>"LOL!!! I just had this picture of andy-at-tin searching the archives. Years have gone by, and he's old and gray--looking for that needle in a haystack..."

It would make a great "Twilight Zone" episode, wouldn't it? We could call it, "The Search for 'Der Fuehrer.'" Du-dee-du-dee-du-dee-du-dee. Dah-Dah-Dah-Dah-h-h-h!!

Der Spiegel, 13 May 1996
Nelson Mandela: Ein Fuehrer ist ein Hirte (A Leader is a Shepherd)

Der Spiegel, 21 June 2004
Maureen Dowd wrote in 1996-7 that Clinton had tried first and foremost to be 'ein Fuehrer' and that he had failed.

That effort took me all of 30 seconds.

So a bunch of German-language news magazines don't like America much.Ah f***ing diddums. I thought you didn't care what they thought any more. Apparently any dissent anywhere is too much for you guys.

@Jade,

"That effort took me all of 30 seconds."

You had to go back 10 years, (5200 Editions of the Spiegel) to find what you were looking for. Der Spiegel has only described a politician as a “Fuhrer” two times in 5200 editions! In both of these cases, these were awkward translations from English. As Helian and many other Americans who have a good command of the German language have stated, the Karen Hughes translation was a poor translation or an intentional slap. Many of us believe, as Helian wrote, that Spiegel is to smart to make a poor translation.

By the way, it is also a major faux pas to call a female acquaintance of the President a "girl friend."

"So a bunch of German-language news magazines don't like America much. Ah f***ing diddums."

Imagine the international controversy if the Three Stooges of weekly magazines, Time, Newsweek or U.S. & World were to bash any country in over 20 magazine covers over a five year period. The French almost had a nervous breakdown when O'Riley called for a boycott of French products. Imagine the indignity from the German embassador if Schroeder or Fischer were characterized like Bush is characterized every month or so by Der Spiegel!

Why should we stay meek and take this bull shit. Especially when over 100,000 U.S. nationals are living in Germany and are positively contributing their economy? Compare the 100,000 productive Americans with the Mohammad Atta cell from Saudi Arabia whose members were "studying" in Hamburg? There is no questions that Americans in Germany or important to Germans and they should be treated respectfully by the German MSM.

Well, to be fair, one article is two years old, and Der Spiegel is only issued 52 times a year, not 520 times.

And then, it was Karen Hughes herself who referred to Bush as a friend ( "my friend President Bush"), and since nouns have a gender in German, there is only one translation, and that is "Freundin".

Look Jade, the anti-American bias spewed by Der Spiegel is well documented here at DMK--as long-time and intellectualy honest observers of this blog know. If Der Spiegel did not already have a history, then I might be inclined to believe that the use of the word "Führer" in the photo caption was just a poor choice. Compare the English and German photos and their captions. I speak often with Germans about politics (I've lived in Germany for 18 years now), and I have yet to hear the word "Führer" be used to describe a political leader without an intended connotation--if you catch my drift.

Don't just look at the use of the word "Führer", but also the entire translation and the edited phrases. This is not just a blip on a radar screen--this is a pattern, or template if you will, that is often used by Der Spiegel which does distort the tone of the original interview. Have no doubt! It is intentional.

Proofs for the fact that the word "Führer" is still being used in German media and that it was therefore neither wrong nor malicious to translate Karen Hughes words "a wonderful leader" as "ein wunderbarer Führer":

--Lateinamerika wählt links. Die neuen Führer wollen unabhängig von den USA sein (Die Zeit)

--Darauf einigten sich die Führer der G8, also der sieben stärksten Industriestaaten und Russlands, zum Auftakt ihrer Gipfelgespräche in dem französischen Kurort. (sueddeutsche.de)

--Mit einer flammenden Wahlkampfrede für den designierten Präsidentschafskandidaten John Kerry hat Expräsident Bill Clinton die Delegierten beim Parteitag der Demokraten in Boston begeistert. "Der Staat, der uns John Adams und John Kennedy gab, hat uns jetzt John Kerry geschenkt, einen guten Mann, einen großartigen Senator, einen visionären Führer", sagte Clinton unter tosendem Applaus. (N24)

--USA - Die Präsidialrepublik und ihre Führer - 43 Köpfe (Link)

--Die USA äußerten sich "tief traurig" über Garangs Tod. Er werde als "visionärer Führer und wahrer Friedensmacher" in Erinnerung bleiben, sagte Präsidentensprecher Scott McClellan in Washington. (Deutsche Welle)

--Hamas-Führer Hanija soll palästinensische Regierung bilden (Basler Zeitung)

--Das ist die Charakterstärke, die das konservative Amerika offenbar von seinem Führer fordert und in John Kerry nicht fand. (Berliner Zeitung)

--Sie wollen erst recht nichts davon wissen, dass Lafontaine und andere SPD-Führer bei ihren DDR-Besuchen Treffen mit Bürgerrechtlern tunlichst vermieden. (taz)

--Amerika sieht euch als das, was ihr seid: die zukünftigen Führer eures freien Landes (taz)

I think this should do it. But I can go on with that forever.

@holymoly

This was the challenge (from an earlier post):

>>"Give us one, single example in Spiegel or SPON from the last decade where an article has referred to a politician anywhere to the left of center, not in Spiegel's dog house, as a "Fuehrer" without qualifying adjectives such as "
'politische.'"

Here are your examples:

>>"--Lateinamerika wählt links. Die neuen Führer wollen unabhängig von den USA sein"

>>"--Darauf einigten sich die Führer der G8, also der sieben stärksten Industriestaaten und Russlands, zum Auftakt ihrer Gipfelgespräche in dem französischen Kurort. (sueddeutsche.de)"

>>"--USA - Die Präsidialrepublik und ihre Führer - 43 Köpfe (Link)"

>>"--Das ist die Charakterstärke, die das konservative Amerika offenbar von seinem Führer fordert und in John Kerry nicht fand. (Berliner Zeitung)"

>>"--Sie wollen erst recht nichts davon wissen, dass Lafontaine und andere SPD-Führer bei ihren DDR-Besuchen Treffen mit Bürgerrechtlern tunlichst vermieden. "(taz)

>>"--Amerika sieht euch als das, was ihr seid: die zukünftigen Führer eures freien Landes (taz)"

In all of the above, "Fuehrer" is used generically, or in the plural, and is not applied to a specific politician. Medienkritik never claimed that the word had been banned from the German language.

>>"--Hamas-Führer Hanija soll palästinensische Regierung bilden (Basler Zeitung)"

In the above, "Fuehrer" is used with the qualifying adjective "Hamas," specifically excluded from the challenge.

>>"--Die USA äußerten sich "tief traurig" über Garangs Tod. Er werde als "visionärer Führer und wahrer Friedensmacher" in Erinnerung bleiben, sagte Präsidentensprecher Scott McClellan in Washington. (Deutsche Welle)"

>>"--Mit einer flammenden Wahlkampfrede für den designierten Präsidentschafskandidaten John Kerry hat Expräsident Bill Clinton die Delegierten beim Parteitag der Demokraten in Boston begeistert. "Der Staat, der uns John Adams und John Kennedy gab, hat uns jetzt John Kerry geschenkt, einen guten Mann, einen großartigen Senator, einen visionären Führer", sagte Clinton unter tosendem Applaus. (N24)"

In both of the above, care is taken to qualify the use of "Fuehrer" by putting it in context with other praise, insuring there is no implication of a double meaning. In SPON's latest, on the contrary, they deliberately bowdlerized a sentence to remove a similar qualifying phrase after the use of "Fuehrer," then used a graphic to emphasize the association of "Fuehrer" with "Bush."

Keep digging, holymoly, you're not even close.

@jade

>>"Der Spiegel, 13 May 1996
Nelson Mandela: Ein Fuehrer ist ein Hirte (A Leader is a Shepherd)"

>>"Der Spiegel, 21 June 2004
Maureen Dowd wrote in 1996-7 that Clinton had tried first and foremost to be 'ein Fuehrer' and that he had failed."

In both cases the term "ein Fuehrer" is used generically to express the concept of a leader, and in neither case is it used to directly describe a person.

Keep googling, jade.


The French almost had a nervous breakdown when O'Riley called for a boycott of French products.

And well they should have. Sales of certain obviously French products (i.e. wine) fell by 30% or more over the next year. Worse they lost market share. People didn't quit drinking wine, they tried Australian, Chilean, Argentinian wine, and discovered that it was good value. On top of that, profitablility of what the French do sell fell also because as a glut developed the price had to be cut.

No agricultural sector in the US is as dependent on any one country, or even as dependent on the EU as a whole, as some sectors of French farming.

It will never be vocally admitted - but Chirac is now working closely with the Bush administration on Iran and a number of other things. I doubt the boycott was the deciding factor but I think it contributed.

Helian, James W: I think this is getting more and more tenuous as this goes forward. My German isn't nearly strong enough to follow the subtleties of German phrasing.

I believe that Bush has been compared to Hitler by an ex member of the German cabinet and that der Speigel may well have been translating archly what Hughes said. But it doesn't mean that much and jade did pull up examples of the use of the word not related to Bush. In any case it's clear that large parts of the German intelligentsia believe that Bush=Hitler. Even more clear is that they haven't the slightest idea of what they are talking about. S? They're on the Amerika-hate drug and all the railing in the world won't make them quit.

Speaking of context, James W, you referred to Reagan as 'Raygun' earlier. 'Ronnie Raygun' was an epithet which Reagan-haters coined in the 80's as a put down. I don't think you meant it that way, though....

@Don

>>"Helian, James W: I think this is getting more and more tenuous as this goes forward. My German isn't nearly strong enough to follow the subtleties of German phrasing."

There's nothing particularly tenuous about it, and if we're boring you, just stop reading the threads. I consider it both entertaining and instructive to give people who are trying to deny the obvious enough rope to hang themselves, and I have no intention of quitting now. I'm sorry your German isn't better, but we're really not talking about subtleties here.

Obviously, some baggage is attached to the word "Fuehrer." It is associated with Hitler. On the other hand, it has a meaning and expresses a concept that it is sometimes awkward and difficult, and even inaccurate, to express using another term. It is, therefore, still in common use, as holymoly, jade, et.al., have demonstrated. However, one must be careful when using the word, because of its association with Hitler, to insure that its proper meaning is understood, and, of course, in the case of politicians, to rule out any double meaning that would associate said politician with Hitler. In all of the cases cited by jade and holymoly, care is taken to avoid the Hitler association. In most of their examples, the term is used generically, and not associated specifically with a particular politician. In the examples where a politician is singled out, phrases such as "a good man," "a great Senator," and "a true peacemaker," are added to give context to the use of the word and insure that it is understood, simply, as "leader." SPON, on the other hand, as clearly pointed out in the original article, has gone out of its way to strip away the original context, so there can be no mistake about the implied association, and then posting the bowdlerized version as the caption of a graphic to make sure the point gets across.

All this isn't news to jade, holymoly and the rest. They're all quite intelligent enough to understand SPON's motives, and yet they persist in denying the obvious. One can only speculate about why they are determined to defend an argument they themselves know is palpably false. Perhaps they share SPON's political agenda, or are simply determined to deny that anything German can be bad. Meanwhile, let's just keep feeding them more rope. If your eyes start glazing over, you can always just scroll down to the next post.

If anybody does deny the obvious, then it's you, Helian.
Your excuses are ridiculous. Anybody who speaks German can see that you're wrong and that "Führer" is simply used for "leader" in the examples I provided.

You wrote: "In all of the above, "Fuehrer" is used generically, or in the plural, and is not applied to a specific politician."

What blah!
All of those examples are applied to specific politicians (order in my comment) and they are used specifically.
1. The new leaders of Latinamerica, 2. the leaders of the G8, 3. John Kerry, 4. the presidents of the USA, 5. John Garang, vice president of Sudan, 6. Hamas-leader Hanija, 7. the US president, 8. Oscar Lafontaine and other leaders of the social democratic party, 9. freedom fighters who will once be the future leaders of their countries (in general).

These examples are taken from German newsmedia and they show how Führer is still being used for leader.

I'm sorry that this fact obviously doesn't fit your concept of the "evil and biased German media", but if you can't even admit that you were wrong in such an obvious matter, then I can't help you.

You wrote:
">>"--Hamas-Führer Hanija soll palästinensische Regierung bilden (Basler Zeitung)"
In the above, "Fuehrer" is used with the qualifying adjective "Hamas," specifically excluded from the challenge."

"Hamas" is an adjective? I really don't think we shouldn't consider you an expert for the subtleties of German language any longer. Hamas is an arabic organization, it's a noun. "Hamas-Führer" means "Hamas-leader". An adjective would be "wonderful", as used in "ein wunderbarer Führer".

I think there's plenty of proof enough. I won't waste my time by trying to argue with you anymore, as I don't think you would accept anything for proof, as long as it doesn't fit in your concept.

@holymoly

>>"If anybody does deny the obvious, then it's you, Helian.
Your excuses are ridiculous. Anybody who speaks German can see that you're wrong and that "Führer" is simply used for "leader" in the examples I provided."

And so the frustrated hand waving begins. Holymoly, his complexion reddening by the thread, sidesteps any attempt to address the substance of my argument, and starts "reasoning" by throwing out insults. He claims that I am "wrong" because "Fuehrer" is simply used for "leader" in the examples he provided. Of course, anyone who actually reads my last post will see that I entirely agree that "Fuehrer" is used as "leader" in his examples, and I am far from claiming that "Fuehrer" has disappeared from the German language. According to holymoly, then, I am "wrong" for agreeing with him. I don't blame you for being frustrated, holymoly. I would be, too, if I had to defend the indefensible.

>>"These examples are taken from German newsmedia and they show how Führer is still being used for leader."

Holymoly repeats himself, to make sure even the densest readers are aware that he didn't actually read my reply.

>>"Hamas" is an adjective? I really don't think we shouldn't consider you an expert for the subtleties of German language any longer. Hamas is an arabic organization, it's a noun. "Hamas-Führer" means "Hamas-leader". An adjective would be "wonderful", as used in "ein wunderbarer Führer".

Nice catch, holymoly, and your point is? Is "Hamas" not being used to qualify "Fuehrer?" Was it really not clear to you what I meant when I said, "Give us one, single example in Spiegel or SPON from the last decade where an article has referred to a politician anywhere to the left of center, not in Spiegel's dog house, as a "Fuehrer" without qualifying adjectives such as "politische." Do we really need to bring in a team of professors of German grammar to explain it to you?

>>"I think there's plenty of proof enough. I won't waste my time by trying to argue with you anymore, as I don't think you would accept anything for proof, as long as it doesn't fit in your concept."

Yes, you've amply proved that "Fuehrer" has not disappeared from the German language, an assertion which, unfortunately, I went out of my way to agree with. You have, however, failed to address the substance of my argument. I don't blame you for quitting, holymoly. What's the point in digging your hole even deeper?

@Helian

Why the insistence on "Führer without qualifying adjectives"? How is wonderful/wunderbar not a qualifying adjective?

@ Don and George M

Just one last thing. The French boycott did not really have an effect on the French economy whatsoever: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html
I don't see how those numbers should drive any Frenchman to a nervous breakdown.

Sales for French wines may have gone down, but that was after the French wines already had been sold to American retailers.


@flux

"Why the insistence on "Führer without qualifying adjectives"? How is wonderful/wunderbar not a qualifying adjective?"

wunderbar doesn't qualify, it amplifies.


Speaking of context, James W, you referred to Reagan as 'Raygun' earlier. 'Ronnie Raygun' was an epithet which Reagan-haters coined in the 80's as a put down. I don't think you meant it that way, though....

LOL! I was wondering if I should qualify my use of "Raygun". Like I said, I was a teen when Reagan became president--"Raygun" just sounded so cool to a boy exploding with testosterone. :-)

@flux

>>"Why the insistence on "Führer without qualifying adjectives"? How is wonderful/wunderbar not a qualifying adjective?"

See the reply by othercoast, which hits the nail on the head. This isn't rocket science. It's like this:
1. The word "Fuehrer" is associated with Hitler in Germany.
2. However, the word means "leader," and there are no good replacements for it in some contexts. Therefore, it is still in the vocabulary, and in common use.
3. An implied association with Hitler depends on the context.

In all of the examples cited by holymoly, jade, and company, care has been taken to avoid the Hitler implication, by adding qualifying words so it's clear that the meaning is "Hamas leader," "political leader," etc., by adding praise of the person described, or by using the term to describe a group or concept rather than an individual. Obviously, as othercoast notes, one can lead Hamas, or a political entity, but one cannot lead a "wunderbar."

SPON, on the other hand, not only failed to add context to avoid the association of Bush with Hitler, it actually stripped Hughes' original remark of context to make sure its readers didn't overlook the slur. Then, to make sure everyone got the point, it used Hughes' bowdlerized sentence as the caption of a graphic. The implied association with Hitler in this case is clear and deliberate.

The original Medienkritik article, BTW, also makes the point very clearly: "What a flattering choice of words for the German-language caption. George W. Bush is "Ein wunderbarer Führer." How convenient that SPIEGEL ONLINE cut the entire last sentence for the desired ending with the desired connotation." Holymoly, jade, et.al., on the other hand, try the lame gambit of claiming that, because they can demonstrate that the word "Fuehrer" is still in use, the original article must be wrong. They are not stupid or naive enough to really believe their own argument. I leave it up to you to guess why they are, nevertheless, trying to fob it off on us.

The French boycott did not really have an effect on the French economy whatsoever: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4279.html
I don't see how those numbers should drive any Frenchman to a nervous breakdown.

It depends upon what business the Frenchman is in. If he works for Airbus, a drop in wine sales means cheaper wine and a still-secure job. If he works for or owns a winery it could mean losing your job or lots of money.

Statistics don't show everyting. The entire agriculture sector in the US amounts to no more than 2% of GDP. I'd be shocked if the proportion in France is more than 4%, of which wine, cheese, and other luxury foods are surely no more than 10% of the total for a total of 0.4%. The drop would be lost in the noise of the trade figures. Nonetheless these are among the most profitable items France exports, so a 25% drop in US demand is going to hurt many french bigtime.

The boycott also showed deep anger with France in the US extending far beyond the political classes.

Sales for French wines may have gone down, but that was after the French wines already had been sold to American retailers.

So the US retailers took a hit in 2003. Guess what happened to the French wineries when order time for 2004 came around? There was a strong drop in orders because old stockes were still unsold or had been unloaded at a loss. What effect do you think it has when many formerly good customers for French red wines discover that they like Australian Shiraz? Less demand for Burgundies, Bordeaux, and Chateauneuf du Pape, that's what....

It's like what happened to Detroit cars after the 1973 oil shock. A lot of US customers bought Japanese cars for their fuel economy. But when oil prices fell, those customers had other reasons to keep buying Japanese. Many of them never went back......

Dude, Clinton is quoted as calling Kerry a visionary Fuehrer. The argument is over.

>>"Dude, Clinton is quoted as calling Kerry a visionary Fuehrer. The argument is over."

Let's not do a "SPON" on the hapless Senator from Massachusetts, jade. After all, holymoly was kind enough to fill in the context for us:

"Der Staat, der uns John Adams und John Kennedy gab, hat uns jetzt John Kerry geschenkt, einen guten Mann, einen großartigen Senator, einen visionären Führer"

You're right, about one thing jade. The argument is over.

@flux

From my last post: "In all of the examples cited by holymoly, jade, and company, care has been taken to avoid the Hitler implication, by adding qualifying words so it's clear that the meaning is "Hamas leader," "political leader," etc., by adding praise of the person described,..."

See what I mean?

@archiloch:
"I'll have to repeat myself. But anybody who speaks german knows that "Führer" is the only direct translation for "leader". In english "Der Fuhrer" is of course Adolf, in german it is still the only word for leader we got. There is no other way to translate Karen Hughes phrase."

Gequirlte Scheisse. I speak German pretty well myself, dude. German, born there and raised while anti-Americanism there was still on the level of Pershings and "American cars use lots of gas". The above veers around the facts and then goes head-on into denial. Kein Scheckung oder was? If I had more time, I'd really like to find out if you're just a sheep, or if you're one of them. Considering your effect on non-German-speaking DMK readers, I'd have to assume bad intentions. Or are you one of those 30% dummies that answer "yes" when asked if they believe the 9/11 conspiracy theory du jour?

...but then, sometimes even Spiegel writers admit blantantly that they know what they're doing, and that they do it to please their audience.


flux,

I think the french economy is doing just great.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

February 2021

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28