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Europe's self-imposed socialist economic situation makes it difficult to compete in World Markets. This pushes them to sell to countries (China, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, N.Korea, Sudan, etc) where Free Market competitors will not sell for various reasons. It's a shame, but for the Europeans to uphold their humanitarian goals through boycot will hurt the job situation at home. Their choice is to be hypocrital and save jobs (and kickbacks), or uphold their beliefs and lose jobs (and kickbacks). Now, this is somewhat true of all countries, but Europe's situation is by far the worse.


Time to balanace all the negative reports on this blog. Help is on the horizon: Uli "Wixert's" successor on ARD. My first encounter with Tom was on 9/11 and I have not been disappointed in a single one of his reports since then.

I am comparing this behavior of the German MSM towards America to the 7 stages a person goes through when sufering a personal loss, (financial of emotional):

In the 10 or so yeaers since Germany selected socialism as it's economic model, they are still in denial that they bet on the wrong horse. I sure hope they can go through the remaining stages a little faster. Certainly my brother-in law is showing no signs of recognition American capitalism is leaving them in the dust. I recommended to him Olaf Gerseman's book Cowboy Capitalism for a little bit of reality education.
There can be no doubt that the MSM in Germany is less inclined to admit heir wrong selection, since a, they are more likely to be ideologically inclined against America and free trade,
b, the are less affected by this, since they are serving a captive audience, no worry about competition from India, like manufacturing.
Labor unions are also more powerful in Germany. I once argued with one member of German travel group in South Africa. He would not even concede that unions are a political institution, let alone that they are damaging to the economy.

...strange lot some of you Germans left behind must be...

There's obviously *still* something wrong with you guys...so ready and willing to support some common-meme solutions to problems that require *society* to make choices for the individual...

You're still wrapped in some heirarchical mindset, aren't you? With a cover like that you projectionists...looking in your mirror...your claim to understand us goes right out the window. Your claims of objectivity or reliability can go...any claim to be a trustworthy news-source have left the building...and its right up front there, for the whole world and history to see.

Guess what? Whatever villain or enemy you want to make us out to be, know this, we will still win...and history will ultimately forget you and remember us. Go ahead, lie about our motives...

Your weak-minded collectivism will always lose out to the genious that springs from each individual.

mispellers untie!

Orbit Rain, to whom are you adressing your comments. I believe this blog was your source. Is it also your target? If it is the target, perhaps you should reevaluate what results you would expect from an attack on it. I can guarantee you, as an American, if someone approached me with the same animosity I would shut them off, right after telling them to take a flying **** at a rolling doughnut. Semper Fi.

Talk about intent to incite hatred. No intelligent person could come to any other conclusion after seeing that magazine cover.

It says a lot that they have no fear in putting pictures like that on magazine covers, yet they are deathly afraid (gee, I wonder why?) to publish some cartoons.

Maybe they should take a step back (I know, I know, but I can dream, can't I?) and really think about that. I wonder how their tune would change if America stopped being such an easy mark. As the saying goes, "be carefull what you wish for..."

@Orbit Rain
Yes, the German media is in an atrocious state and the worst of it is, that Germans still believe a great deal of what the media tells them. Also, you are correct in your observation that the Germans tend to let their government order them around. It happens even if it damages basic human rights of Millions of their own people. Case in point, are the human rights of 15 Million German expellees from Germany's Eastern Provinces, East Prussia, West Prussia, Silesia and Pommerania.

Here we have 1/4 of Germany's pre-war territory being illegally annexed by Poland and Russia at the end of WW II, while the population was subject to the genocide of 3 MIllion inhabitants and the expulsion of another 12 Million under the most inhumane of circumstances. The government of the Federal Republic of Germany decided in 1991 to recognize the annexed territories as Russia or Poland proper without providing the German expellee minority with a plebicite as required by international law. The MSM in Germany were totally on the side of Russia and Poland - way ahead in this endeavor was, of course, DER SPIEGEL. The usual rationale which was bought into by many Germans was - you guessed it - atrocities of Russian and Poles were excused "in relativity" to atrocities committed by Gremans during WW II.

I believe this example shows that Germany has become (as of yet) a democratic, socialist state with strong tendencies toward authoritarianism. It is a country that has always been rather incredulously naive in political matters. Part of this heritage developed through a thousand years of absolute and benign monarchies. It disenfranchised the average citizenry from taking an active part in politics except for certain political pressure groups from the left.

Germans generally believe that if they trust a free media and participate in elections every four years based upon this information, they have completed their civic duties. Only very few think of writing to their chancellor or to their representatives in parlament. Even fewer protest against lies emanating from the media. Unfortunately, some day they will get again what they deserve for their civic inaction and disinsterest in finding out the truth as far as their foreign policy is concerned.


Hi Ray,

This is yet another appalling bit of "journalism" by Spiegel.

Why does Speigel keep bashing America over and over and over again? Seriously, the Editors of Spiegel are either mentally deranged or Germans are deranged-at least enough of them in that they actually pay money to read such bile over and over again. Does Spiegel do this simply because they are earning a profit as a result of America bashing, anti-Americanism pays?

Let's put it bluntly. Germany is in no position to pontificate about morals whatsoever, especially towards America. Before some left-wing freak tries that "friends must criticize friends when one is making mistakes" crap, real friends do not do criticisize in such a manner, but do so by using constructive criticism instead of bashing.

Anti-Americanism is widespread in old Europe. I won't get into the why's about that other than to say that it is a tool being used by the socio and political "elite" in euroland to leverage the furtherance of the delusional "Europa" (EU). Basically the theme is: bash America with one hand and simultaneously offer the idea of the EU-try and cut America down and at the same time push "Europa". It's gotten so bad nowadays in old Europe that it's safe to say that there anti-American = pro-EU, at least with the "intelligensia", though I use the term "intelligensia" very, very loosely indeed as they are basically pond scum.

If the euros think they live and act in a vacuum-in the information age, and that we Americans are going to just sit here and take their delusional self-righteous crap, then the fact that they really ascribe to Spiegel's bile is a proven fact, as they are indeed that fecking stupid afterall.

You know what, Ray? We've all heard of anti-Americanism in euroland, right? Well, I am now becoming anti-European. Furthermore, given the poisonous bile eminating from old Europe, it's the right thing to do and only makes sense. Even though I have both US and EU citizenship, old Europe must be made to see sense-it's for their own good. Moreover, I will use the exact same methods Spiegel does my beloved America: publically and try to humiliate old Europe at every opportunity and when someone asks me about it I'll just spit out the "friends must criticize friends" crap old Europe does to us...

Old Europe wants to bash and thereby provoke America? Bring it the feck on, I now welcome it, as the sooner Americans and our real friends crush the Spiegel's of the world, the better off all of humanity will be.

A couple of days ago, Spiegel ran a story about prisoners in Hamburg being cuffed naked.
Not as big a deal since it didn't involve Americans?
I bet some editor is trying to find an angle involving BUSH?

Always fun to see the righteous right squirming and yelling "unfair!", "Bias" and "Let's get 'em!" When a German mag publishes unpalatable facts... But let's face it, these pics are also being printed in media everywhere around the world.

And they are factual are they not? The pics are not fakes - this stuff happened regardless of pleadings regarding subsequent action by McCain et al... The record cannot be remade as squeaky clean...

Ok - the pics are two years old - so what? These events are a grim blot on the US record, one likely to be around for a lo-o-o-ng time. And, if a another set of pics surfaces in 2-3 more years, we all may as well get ready to stroll down memory lane again.

Want to censor the press? Want to them only to print the good news?
Well, it's hardly likely! So, blame the guys in charge who let it all happen at Abu Gihraib - and suck it up...

You do the crime and you do the time...

DIE ZEIT 16.02.2006 Nr.8 Ich habe einen Traum.

@ greatsage:

This is clearly not about media censorship, it is about media priorities. Take a close look at the post. Do you think the cover represents reasonable, objective reporting or manipulative (profit-oriented) sensationalism? I happen to think it's the latter.

What a great philosopher. When is he going to share his wealth with everyone, when he dies?
Just some marxist communist leftist who should leave his hated country and move to Cuba.


“Want to censor the press? Want to them only to print the good news?”

It be nice if they balanced the bad news with good news.

“Well, it's hardly likely! So, blame the guys in charge who let it all happen at Abu Gihraib - and suck it up...You do the crime and you do the time...”

Very good! When is the German press going to account for 50 years of torture and rape? I don’t mean the Hitler years from 1933 to 1945. I mean the Ulrich and Honecker years from 1945 to 1991.

What about the hundreds that were murdered crossing the East/West German border?

What about the tens of thousands that were imprisoned? Some of who were beaten, drugged and tortured?

What about those children who were separated from their parents because their parents were politically unreliable (asocials), and who were subsequently adopted by childless party memebers?

What about the millions of former DDR citizens who were either spied upon by the Stasi or who the Stasi forced to spy on their friends or loved ones?

What about the former DDR’s ties to terrorism to include Baader/Meinhof, The Red Army Faktion and other leftist terrorist groups?

What about the Stasi’s ties to Saddam Hussain? The Stasi trained most of Saddam’s secret service.

I would say that there is plenty of room for German self reflection before beating a dead horse like Abu Ghrab again. Besides these pictures are moot and boring. You can’t get any better symbolism of terrorist humiliation than the picture of 90 lb Lyndie England leading an Arab terrorist around the prison in a dog chain.

If only there was some current event that could help the europeans understand the wide ranging implications of trying to stir up muslim anger against the West maybe they would consider the result of such sensationalist America bashing and report on actual problems of the arab world

A pity there is no such current example to teach this lesson to the europeans

( is the sarcasm thick enough? )

To: "greatsage"

"Want to censor the press? Want to them only to print the good news?"

Crap. Two year old pictures rehashed over and over and over again is pathetic.

Look at Spiegel's HISTORY of publications. Do you see a trend through your bong smoke?

Siegel is bashing America, full stop.

Now it's time to bash euroland.

Bend over coz we give a hell of a lot better than we get.

koepfchen, you're right, cowboy capitalism is a great book
and written by a german :)

“America’s Pride” would be a lot more appropriate than “America’s Shame,” for the reasons several other commenters have already cited. The cowardly little bunnies at Spiegel didn’t have the guts to publish a few cartoons. No, not them. They were too “sensitive” for that. But they’re not too “sensitive” to publish recycled propaganda that’s far more offensive by any realistic standard. That’s something we Americans can be proud of. The Spiegel sheep know there will be no riots in front of their offices protesting their “insensitivity.” They know that any American who denies they have the right to publish their propaganda will be immediately marginalized and shunned. They know, on the contrary, that we will defend their right to publish. They know they need not fear any Theo van Gogh rerun from bigoted, imbecile Americans. They know they need not fear that any embassies will be burned or smashed by fanatical mobs. They know there will be no boycotts of German goods. German chocolate, beer, and wine will remain on our shelves, and we will continue to drive German cars. In a word, they know we are light years removed from the fanatical bigots, who claim they are “defending Islam,” but who lack even the faintest resemblance to the leaders of Islam in the days of that religion’s greatest glory. That difference is something we can be very proud of, and it’s a difference we should have the courage to defend.

The regulars here know that I consider what happened at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere torture. Spiegel’s latest has nothing to do with opposing torture. How could it? It plays into the hands of the torturers, and pulls the rug out from under those who genuinely oppose torture, and want to stop it once and for all. It is really just so much red meat thrown out to the hordes of pathetic, bitter, envious America-haters who are Spiegel’s “core constituency.” The editors know that anti-Americanism is synonymous with big bucks in Germany. It pays. They’ve been a little reserved in expressing it lately, though, because they know they’re being watched. They don’t want to sacrifice respectability entirely in the pursuit of profit. For that reason, the “new” Abu Ghraib” pictures seemed like a godsend to them. They could strike all the usual phony poses with all the usual fake pathos from the increasingly shaky high ground, and convince themselves no one would call them on it, because, after all, they were “opposing torture.” Their imbecile readers will swallow the bait as usual. Problem is, nobody with a brain is buying it this time around. It’s just too easy to see the money trail leading up to the “moral high ground.”

It seems that there are much worse things happening in the Russian military, but this getting very little attention compared to Abu Ghraib:

"Freitag, 27.01.2006
Brutale Rekrutenschinderei erschüttert Russland
Moskau. Betrunkene Ausbilder misshandelten in der Neujahrsnacht ihre Rekruten. Einem der Opfer mussten beide Beine und die Genitalien amputiert werden. Erst jetzt wurde der Fall aus der Panzerschule Tscheljabinsk bekannt.....Die Misshandlung Untergebener („Djedowtschina“ genannt) ist ein weit bekanntes Problem in der russischen Armee. Nach Schätzungen des Komitees der Soldatenmütter fallen jährlich mehr als 3.000 Wehrpflichtige der „Djedowtschina“ zum Opfer."


Don't know if it's a real word, but I like it. :)

Wenn ein Affe in den SPIEGEL blickt, kann kein Apostel herausschauen.
(frei nach Lichtenberg)

I understand that onesided coverage of the US can be frustrating. But I believe some of you are overlooking a key point here:
It is perfectly legitimate to run a story on human rights abuses of detainees in custody of the U.S. Army - it is the job of the press to do so, isnt't it?
I just don't understand the outrage of some people here: yes, what the terrorist and the religious fanatics do is ten times worse - they kill, they burn down embassies etc... but does the fact that we are dealing with barbaric, low-life, religious fanatic scum mean that the West has to lower its own standards concerning human rights? I hope not.

You can bash "Spiegel" for not publishing the cartoons - but at least it is understandable on a human level that editors don't want to endanger their employees (forget their bogus official justification).
But I can't for the life of me think of a single legititmate reason for not publishing the pictures of these abuses. Of course they undercut the image and the credibility of not only the US but unfortunately the West as a whole in the Islamic world. But whose fault is that: the journalist who reports it or those who perpetrated the crime?

Europe's self-imposed socialist economic situation makes it difficult to compete in World Markets. This pushes them to sell to countries (China, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, N.Korea, Sudan, etc) where Free Market competitors will not sell for various reasons.


I take it this is meant to be funny ? It invites ridicule. Do you live in a Skinner Box in Chicago ? Have you taken a look at the US Trade Deficit recently ? Have you ever wondered why GM is almost bankrupt ? Do you know who is the biggest truck manufacturer on earth ?

Do you know who owns Chrysler ?

Do you know which aircraft manufacturer is pushing Boeing off the map ?

Do you know which shipyards built the Queen Mary 2 ?

Do you know that France manufactures the GE-CFM56 jet engine used on all Boeing 737s in the USA ?

Do you know which countries are the largest foreign investors in the United States economy ?

BTW M Crane the country with the largest Trade Surplus in the world is GERMANY...................the one with the highest Trade Deficit is the USA.

Do you know who owns Chrysler ?

Daimler-Benz. I also know who is eating GM's (and Daimler-Benz lunch - and it isn't a European company. Look to Japan....

Do you know which aircraft manufacturer is pushing Boeing off the map ?

Who? Do you mean Airbus? Last I heard Airbus latest, greatest plane (the 380) was too large for most airports. Meanwhile Boeing was selling their latest (the 787) very well because in an era of high fuel prices Boeing can offer the most fuel-efficient plane going.

Speigel obviously suffers from a lack of editorial imagination. Perhaps it should rename itself Abu Ghraib 24X7 or something. I mean Abu Ghraib - again?..... Isn't that so - 2004? Speigel is obviously short of decent staff or else they would be able to offer something more - timely.

@ NewsJunkie:

"But I can't for the life of me think of a single legititmate reason for not publishing the pictures of these abuses."

The issue is not whether it is legitimate to publish the pictures or not. (Since they may have been leaked we can argue about that.) I totally agree that the perpetrators are primarily responsible. What we object to (over two years after the fact) is the exploitative manner in which SPIEGEL has chosen to manipulate the pictures on the cover of its magazine. This is about shock value. It is about exploiting anti-American sentiment. It is about profit. Pure and simple.

This is nothing more than a continued effort by the German elites to rehabilitate their own history

@ Newsjunkie

"It is perfectly legitimate to run a story on human rights abuses of detainees in custody of the U.S. Army - it is the job of the press to do so, isn't it?"

Sure, they have the right to report any story. It is their First Amendment right that protects them. So on and So on.

However, I think that press needs to seriously reflect on their roles during a war against a savvy enemy.

CBS purposely leaked Abu Grahb with the intent on making a political statement against the Bush administration. Nobody objects to them making a political statement against Bush or the Republicans. It is every American's right to criticize any politician....any political party.

But CBS should have known what kind of damage it would make overseas. This Spiegel article is proof. America’s detractors in Germany are still milking the story. The story is still being milked in the Arab world by Al Jazziera and their like. The story makes the Billy Zane character, described in the article above, credible to the world and supports the enemy’s propaganda version of what we are all about.

It also makes CBS's leak of the story petty and pathetic.

Imagine, if you can, if the press acted this way in every war. Imagine the New York Times publishing Mathew Brady’s photographs of Gettysburg or Sharpsville right after the battle. Would the North have the resolve to continue fighting after the carnage was so graphically captured?

Ditto the trench warfare of WWI. Would the U.S. continue its resolve to send troops to France after the victims of mustard gas were graphically depicted in the national news papers.

World War II had its bloody moments. Would the public continue its resolve to fight if they had distributed news reels showing the 6,000 that died on Omaha Beach, floating face down in the English Channel?.

No, the press refrained from going that far in these wars. The press needs to show some restraint in the current war.

They also need to print good news. One of the most positive recent developments in the war is the number of “Red on Red” engagements. Apparently Saddam loyalist have turned on Zaqawi’s terrorist. There have been numerous fire fights between Baath loyalist and Al Quaida. All of this has been unreported or under-reported by our press.

"The most disgraceful aspect is that Germany has repeatedly coddled, condoned and even assisted regimes of dictatorship and mass murder despite its own disgraceful national history."

Despite its history? That would be assuming that Germans' attitudes and beliefs have changed significantly since the middle ages. Europeans have many things to be culturally proud of, now and in the past, but concern for human rights is definitely not one of them.

@ rountree
Chrysler was answered,just an adition, Chrysler is in the black, Mercedes in the red.

Boeing is creaming Airbus(the company which is relying on Government susisies). The 380 is a white elephant, especially now with it's wing problems. The 340is in the garbage because of it's 4 engines and fuel consuption. The 350 will probably never get off the ground.

Snecma is a French company who manufactures parts for the GE Engine. General electric is the manufacturer. Did you know that approximately 30 countries manufacture parts for Boeing/ By the way Airbust does too.

As to foreign Investors in the US, you are correct. While the US used to be the largest foreign investor in Germany, since 2000 it all changed. There is virtually no American investment in Germany anymore. Unlike after the war when we used a 4.5 to 1 mark exchange rate to entice American companies to go to Germany, employ Germans and opened our Marketplace in order to rebuild the country. It was later called the "Wirtschaftswunder". Unfortunately it didn't come with instructions. Is this good for the German economy, I don't think so. There are reasons that German companies invest in the US. Higher productivity, lower costs(and nebenkosten), less bureaucracy, etc.

You forgot one thing that most Germans are being fed to be proud of: Wir sind Weltmeister im Export!!!!!!
Another little nebulous item. Did you know that California "exports 3/4 as much as Germany/ The German "export is anything outside of Germany including the EU. Take the EU out of the equation, like we take the states, and you would be under "ferner liefen".

as far as Trade deficit is concerned, we do buy a lot of products that are manufactured in other countries, aren't we nice? I guess the mean old US should stop buying from Germany, China, France etc., that sure would help our trade deficit? You can't have it both ways.

Bottom line: you love to pick up slogans to publish. I have not seen you display any knowledge of why certain things happen. Educate yourself.

I am sure the article left this important information out. The people who did this "torture" are in jail or still at trial. That is the difference between the US and everyone else. We put these fool behind bars and they will pay for the rest of their lives as this follow them around. This kind of treatment is not and never was authorised by the US military, government or citizens. That is the story that is not told.

In any case I could care less. Islam is a religion that is incompatable with the 21st century and western civilization. Crap like this sends islam stark raving bonkers. That is partly why it was published. It's not just about feeding the germanic and European proclivity to eat up kind of thing. If SPIEGEL can feed it, it will. The press does this because it sells papers and magazines at a time when papers and magazines are gettting harder and harder to sell. Why do people buy SPIEGEL? Why do people buy the National Enquirer?

I believe in freedom of speech that is absolute. So SPIGEL is free to publish this rubbish just as I am free to print pictures that offend islamo-fascists. But SPIGEL will never print anything that might offend teh islamo-fascists out of fear. I am also free to label SPIEGEL as a bunch of TRANZI fools and cowards.

>>"Boeing is creaming Airbus(the company which is relying on Government susisies). The 380 is a white elephant, especially now with it's wing problems. The 340is in the garbage because of it's 4 engines and fuel consuption. The 350 will probably never get off the ground."

It's ironic that the German media elites in general and Spiegel in particular are now so triumphalist over the success of Airbus. Once upon a time there was a Bavarian Christian Socialist named Franz Josef Strauss. He was highly intelligent, articulate, albeit with a charming Munich accent, and Germany's quintessential "right winger" back in the 70's and 80's. He was also the great patron and guiding spirit of Airbus during the stormy days of its birth. Spiegel fought him every step of the way, dismissing Airbus as a white elephant and transparent attempt by German industry to bilk the taxpayers out of billions in subsidies for a sure loser. They've really changed their tune, haven't they? Now all we hear from Spiegel whenever the word "Airbus" is mentioned is resounding "Hurrah's!" Somewhere Franz Josef Strauss must be smiling.

>>"Why would you guys repeat over and over again, that "SPIEGEL didn't even have the guts to publish those cartoons" when they actually did publish them? SPIEGEL was even banned in Egypt for publishing them, along with FOCUS. Meanwhile the US media proved that they are the same sissies they have always been since 9/11 by stating that 'we don't show the pictures out of respect for Islam'."

I'm in complete agreement with you regarding the US MSM. Fortunately, our alternative sources of information carry more weight than in Germany, and they haven't been behindhand in publishing the cartoons. Instapundit just put them up, BTW.

If SPON or Spiegel published the cartoons, where's the link, or when were they published? If what you say is true, they will get a "mea culpa" from me, hat in hand.

Note to commenters: The surest way to get your comments deleted and your account put on "hold for approval" status is to insult those running this blog. See our comments policy. It is possible to comment and disagree in a manner respectful to the people who work very hard to keep this blog running (for free).

Europeans have many things to be culturally proud of, now and in the past, but concern for human rights is definitely not one of them.

I'm not sure I completely agree, Eric. I'm thinking of Emile Zola who broke open L'Affaire Dreyfus with J'Accuse and of Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. France has a long history of humanitarian thinkers.

Also Goethe, though German philosophers are more notable for their destructiveness than their humanitariansim (I'm thinking Nietzsche, Hegel, and Marx here).

@Pogue: "is the sarcasm thick enough?"
I think not. It needs to be thicker than the lefty skull it is intended to penetrate. Try a little more next time.

The irony: what hard-hitting investigative organization uncovered the Abu Ghraib story, hounded the perpetrators, and broke the story to the media? The Washington Post? The NYT? Spiegel? No, it was the US Army.

Many Americans are equally sickened by the abuse and torture that has taken place "in the name of freedom". Here is an editorial from the Baltimore Sun today:

I think the poll numbers that indicate a falling support for President Bush reflect a general disgust for the adminstration's policies (and actions) 0n detainees, as well as the total lack of accountability.

@ Vic,

Please show us where anyone in the administration has ever supported torture "in the name of freedom." If you click on the links in the second paragraph of the posting above you will find several that contradict your assertion.


"Many Americans are equally sickened by the abuse and torture that has taken place 'in the name of freedom'. Here is an editorial from the Baltimore Sun today:"

I am also sickened by the abuse and torture that have taken place. Spiegel's exploitation of abuse and torture for anti-American propaganda is just as sickening. If you think the Spiegel cover is there because the editors are "equally sickened by the abuse and torture," you are a) dreaming, b) from another planet, or c) on drugs. The reason for that cover is the bottom line - cold hard cash - period. If you really believe Spiegel's over-the-top exploitation of the torture meme to peddle its America bashing stock in trade is helping to prevent torture or alleviate the suffering of torture victims, I can only say I beg to differ with you. You need to start reading a few blogs that cater to the Bush lock-steppers. You'll find they're very good at exploiting America bashing propaganda tarted up as "high minded and principled opposition to torture" to rationalize torture. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to distinguish principled criticism of a friend from Spiegel's propaganda designed to nurture its carefully cultivated "Feindbild Amerika." Have you seen any coverage at all in Spiegel of the many principled intellectuals in the US on the other side of this issue, such as Charles Krauthammer, who I somehow suspect are not simply evil minions of the devil? Have you seen lots of articles about the passage of Senator McCain's anti-torture legislation? Have you seen even the faintest attempt to bring any nuance into the torture issue given the trauma of the events of 9/11, of a piece with the "root causes" rationalization of suicide bombing and the gratuitous Islamist butchering of civilians? Sorry, but Spiegel isn't a "principled opponent of torture," and neither are you. You're simply giving intellectual cover to propaganda peddlers.


Good to see you back. Was worried about you.

‘You can bash "Spiegel" for not publishing the cartoons - but at least it is understandable on a human level that editors don't want to endanger their employees”
“But I can't for the life of me think of a single legititmate reason for not publishing the pictures of these abuses.” It was legitimate to release the story when it happened. At least the military felt it should be released and therefore did release it. But, what reason is there to rehash the story now? I would like a legitimate reason it is back in the news. Are these new abuses? No. Did one of the perpetrators escape from jail? No. Did the USA just pass a bill allowing torture? No.

Let me give you a single legitimate reason for not publishing the pictures of the abuses. It is going to get one or more soldier and/or marine killed or severely injured. You say that not publishing the cartoons was understandable. You should be able to understand how publishing these pictures put our young men and women in more danger.

Has any one seen the cartoons printed in either the on-line or printed versions of Stern, Spiegel or Focus? I don't see anything on the Google links I'm turning up, but maybe I'm just blind.

Last week's paper Stern (sorry, no reference) published a smallish photo of what looked to be the cartoon spread in a newspaper (Danish, French, or German wasn't clear). Unless one had already seen the cartoons, it would have been difficult to make out the underlying meanings.

Bottom line is that Stern showed them without really showing them.


@Helian: Die Welt writes about SPIEGEL and FOCUS having been banned in Egypt because of printing some cartoons.


Do you have a link to either Spiegel or Focus showing the cartoons? Rather than a heresay link?

@Vic: " think the poll numbers that indicate a falling support for President Bush reflect a general disgust for the adminstration's policies (and actions) 0n detainees, as well as the total lack of accountability."

When polls are done honestly with specific questions about WHY people are getting disgruntled with Bush, the facts come out that most of us think he is not being agressive enough in the Middle East and on the US/Mexico border. And that is the REAL truth of the matter.


"With a cover like that you projectionists...looking in your mirror..."

"DER SPIEGEL" in German translates to "mirror" in English.

They look in a mirror and describe us as they see themselves...with all their petty jealousies, avarice and fears. Carl Jung said "Projections change the world into the replica of one's own unknown face."

oh, sorry, still being too oblique...I'm talking to "some of you Germans" and specifically to the projectionists...err...the mirror-talkers....errr...I mean der spiegel people...

The mirror-people, who can look in every direction and always see themselves.

Mike, I'm barking at some fucking idiots, not you.

(that's "Internet" for a salute ;-)


...brainwashing here, there and everywhere...driven by a press more interested in dollars than truth...if it bleeds it leads and conflict sells...the media-jihad continues...

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