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With a generation where the mantra seems to be, "Mal sehen, wie es geht," is this surprising? The French have words, like ennui and malaise, to express this disconnectedness. Only the Germans could invent such limp phrases.

Rather puzzling that there is not more procreation going on here in D-Land; especially since the number of square meters of living space one is required by law to provide his/her offspring with is significantly less than the space one has to provide one's pet dog with. And the financial enticements to multiply just cannot be beat (Kindergeld). Hmmm. Wonder if there's something wrong with the social climate.

The "success" of their social model is the purest myth, of course, and the Germans know this better than we do. They FEEL it every day (intuitively). They KNOW that something is wrong but, being all brains and no bite, they are incapable of admitting it, much less ever do anything about it (common sense is not as common as we would like to think). Everything here (social) is still based upon that incredibly short period of time just after the war when they worked like dogs for peanuts and built up everything they (their fathers?) had destroyed. That period quickly ended but "the system" (self-service) remains, it's taboo. They won't change it, either. Believe me. The German politician knows precisely what he/she is doing. Die fahren das Ding gegen die Wand (drive the thing up against the wall) until it won't go anymore and then they'll say something like "Oops, sorry. My hands are tied" and then they'll REact and make some minor little tweak here or there. Stay tuned and see if you don’t believe me. It's pitiful, really.

Hello Mr. Love,

what did you have for breakfast today?
Crack? That new sort of speed that american children love so much?


Calm down, man and realize that the german social system is not an american system.
You don't have to make it your system. Your country is different. The US Citizens are different.

But I guess, the twelve million poor americans or the four million americans in jail would love it, because we truly left no children behind. You did (it for more money)
Besides, the US subscribed to the english capitalistic model. Come down from your high horse, brother and realize the truth.

So, now, go out and get some money, yes, I know you want it, you love money, beat the old lady off the street to get your money, GET IT GET IT

Stupid consevative dumpass

@antibush00

The Rürup model is coming...stay tuned dreamer; your nanny-state days are numbered

antibush, I am classified as one of those "twelve million poor americans" of which you wrote, and I own my home (with a substantial garden), I have three working television sets, a working telephone, immediate acess to the internet and many thousands of books, easy transportation (while I do not own a car, I can use one belonging to a friend or family member, or I can ride a bus), and have never gone a day without food (my girth could prove that). I have access to full medical care when I need it (including psychiatric care). My one daughter is grown and has a healthy, happy, hard-working, successful family.

And, all of that is made possible by the successful capitalistic model we have here.


BTW - I believe the term is "Dumbass".

This is like the dispute whether the chicken or the egg was first. Without a future there are no children, and without children there is no future. I believe change begins with an idea of a future, one in which individuals can perceive it as realistic to commit resources to a two-decades-long cradle-to-majority business plan of their choice.

In the Greater Germany of the Nazis 62 mio were a Volk ohne Raum, but now we are 82 mio in a smaller territory and it is said we have become an endangered species. I must say I don't understand the hype. Population sizes change very slowly, but reproduction rates can change from one day to another when individuals understand their planning horizons.

Immigrant reproduction rates are also below equilibrium, after all they live in the same apocalyptic political climate.

Most of the concern about German demography is actually a concern about the social security system. How can a social system based on redistribution between the generations work if demography is not an ever-growing rise to destination unlimited, but a long-wave tideway mirroring the booms and depressions of a society?

Horst Köhlers proposal of an unconditional Grundeinkommen could take a lot of the heat off this question, because it could make all the concerns over redistribution details null and void. And yes, there is a way to finance it.

A little bit OT.

Victor Davis Hanson does it again. Just another excellent article (IMO):

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200601060804.asp

"what did you have for breakfast today?
Crack? That new sort of speed that american children love so much?"

@Jealous of Bush

I have relatives both sides of the Atlantic. Only my German relatives are in drug rehabilitation and are sick from Hepatitis Type B. On the contrary, only my American relatives are healthy enough to pro-create and have kids.

Dumpass American

@Franzism
Grundeinkommen is a very slippery slope with many potholes. I will discuss with you, if you want to.
Demographics and lowered productivity along with exellerated outsourcing are some of the problems in the future.
You can't finance something if your pockets are empty.

Ah, yes, all Germans are drug-addicts and all Americans are healthy. Come on!

Most Germans are in fact drug addicts. They are addicted to their daily dose of deluded Leftist anti-American hate screeds. They even get their children hooked on it as we read in the previous essay by Ray D.

Ok, they all are addicted to Springer tabloid "BILD", the high priest of German anti-American hate screeds - not to forget the wacky "FAZ".
And have a close look on "Deutsches Allgemeines Sonntagsblatt", a left-wing newspaper run by communist fundamentalists pretending to be Christians. That is scary!

Anti-Christ /Bush wrote:
"...because we truly left no children behind." and "Stupid consevative dumpass"

You probably meant "stupid conservative dumbass" - thanks for the effort to write in English though.

No child left behind in Germany? Hm, so it's not a problem that a high percentage of children in German schools are immigrants who don't even speak German? And that widely discussed "PISA study" shows that German pupils are among the best educated in the world - did I get that correctly?

I don't know about you, folks, but I sometimes visit German computer forums and am always surprised and shocked about the spelling and grammar there. Of course you could attribute that to the fact that a lot of people don't write as carefully when they contribute stuff on the internet but I tend to believe these kids / young people simply don't have a clue. It doesn't help if you use SMS (text-message) talk or regularly use Turko/German colloquialisms which seems to happen more and more these days, even on TV.

Anti-Bush: You're a typical German. I'm ashamed that I was born in the same country as you. Go and indoctrinate a few children. You're probably a teacher.

What is wrong with the German social model. It seems perfect to me. Keep it up (ahem), Germany.

>>What is wrong with the German social model. It seems perfect to me. Keep it up (ahem), Germany.<<

No, it`s not perfect. Maybe ist was kind of that when it was inventend in the last century. But sadly enough it wasn`t reformed in the past 30 years and so it now is everything else than perfect. It still is a good system compared to many others over the world but top-notch systems you nowadays will find in the north of europe.
We will see what`s changing in Germany in the next few years - some big issues have to be solved.

@francism
just looked at my comment: Fat fingers again
Should read accellerated of course

--It still is a good system compared to many others over the world but top-notch systems you nowadays will find in the north of europe.--

I hope you don't mean Sweden, if it were a state, it'd rank in the bottom 50.

Along w/the rest of the [deep] South.

What has happened to you is also happening in Taxachusettes and other Northeastern liberal blue states - and San Francisco.

Too darn expensive to have and raise kids. So, they move up and out.

>>I hope you don't mean Sweden, if it were a state, it'd rank in the bottom 50.<<

Sweden is no state anymore? Oh, have I missed this news?
Ehm, there are some other countries in the north of Europe - Finland, Norway and Denmark for example. And don`t forget the Netherlands - not quite in the north but always on the run.
The problem might be, that Germany is much bigger than those other countries and that it`s harder to reform a system that runs 50+ years. Additional most Germans are too conservative to welcome changes to their lives. That in my eyes is the biggest problem.

I also think the German social system is deeply flawed and needs to be changed.

However, I don't understand what the changing demographics in Germany has to do with the German social model. Birth rates have been dropping in pretty much all developed countries, even in the U.S. (http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/aabirthrate.htm)

I love this sentence:

Germany within just a few decades will become a lagely sclerotic society with decreasing reliance on Christian and family values.

What is that supposed to mean? What's so great about Christian values? What about Jewish values? Don't they have any values? Is it only Christians that have values? Or are their values somehow better than non-Christian values? What are Christian values, if I may ask?

Has David's Medienkritik suddently turned into some anti-semitic Christian missionary site?

This whole Christian values crap is complete bullshit.

Q: Who slaughtered millions of Jews, "witches", and "heretics" during the Middle Ages? Was it

a) Jews
b) Atheists
c) Christians

Did you know Hitler was a Catholic until his death?

I demand an apology from David and Ray for this baloney!

OT but food for thought via Instapundit:

Saddam's Terror Training Camps
What the documents captured from the former Iraqi regime reveal--and why they should all be made public.
by Stephen F. Hayes
01/16/2006, Volume 011, Issue 17

THE FORMER IRAQI REGIME OF Saddam Hussein trained thousands of radical Islamic terrorists from the region at camps in Iraq over the four years immediately preceding the U.S. invasion, according to documents and photographs recovered by the U.S. military in postwar Iraq. The existence and character of these documents has been confirmed to THE WEEKLY STANDARD by eleven U.S. government officials.

The secret training took place primarily at three camps--in Samarra, Ramadi, and Salman Pak--and was directed by elite Iraqi military units. Interviews by U.S. government interrogators with Iraqi regime officials and military leaders corroborate the documentary evidence. Many of the fighters were drawn from terrorist groups in northern Africa with close ties to al Qaeda, chief among them Algeria's GSPC and the Sudanese Islamic Army. Some 2,000 terrorists were trained at these Iraqi camps each year from 1999 to 2002, putting the total number at or above 8,000. Intelligence officials believe that some of these terrorists returned to Iraq and are responsible for attacks against Americans and Iraqis. According to three officials with knowledge of the intelligence on Iraqi training camps, White House and National Security Council officials were briefed on these findings in May 2005; senior Defense Department officials subsequently received the same briefing....

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/550kmbzd.asp

By the way, did you know that Israel`s new president is German?

I said if it were a state -- I should have clarified, if it were a US state, it would rank in the bottom 50.

Sweden has been held up (at least to [some] Americans) for awhile (about 30 years, IIRC) as the Europe model that works, hasn't it?

And to get very, very technical, until there is a proper EU, wouldn't they still be individual countries?? Sweden can't be considered a "state" like in the US.

That is why Sweden was chosen.

--

Finland, Norway and Denmark for example.

Also not good examples, especially since I just saw an English Die Welt piece on some countries which aren't doing so well, high (compared to US) unemployment and Finland was 1 of them. Germany, Poland, France were others....

And minimize Norway's oil.......that's more extraction than production, prices go down....like the Middle East which doesn't produce much, just extracts, - if it wasn't needed, what would they produce enough of that the world wants to keep their population going...but that's a topic for another time.

--
Birth rates have been dropping in pretty much all developed countries, even in the U.S.

Birth rates are dropping most places, but the US is still minimumly about where we to be to sustain. And we're projected to grow not only by birth, but by immigration, possibly to 500m. And we do have the space.

--

I wasn't aware Germany was founded on Jewish values, hinger1.

Learn something new every day.

Americans understand what they meant.

@Niko

"Or are their [Christians] values somehow better than non-Christian values?"

As you asked for it - yes, they are.

I didn't know you were an anti-Semite.

But I'm glad you came out of the closet. Now at least we know who we're dealing with ...

@Sandy P

Of course Germany was not founded on Jewish values. The European Christians, and especially the German Christians, made sure the Jews were being persecuted, burned, shot, dispossessed, ridiculed, beaten, tortured, and gassed over the course of several centuries. Anti-Semitism is part of the European Christian heritage.

I'm sure that's the Christian values you're talking about.

Niko,

"..by 2050, but only 200 million Europeans"

There will be 200 million in Europe, but they won't be Europeans. Well, about half will be, but they'll be all over 70, the rest will be Muslims pay taxes to support elderly, whiny volk. Yup. Working hard too these Muslims, creating the goods and services that make Germany great. I don't mean to paint a too dark picture, I suppose union and political leaders will retire to Florida or Spain, so they'll be fine. It's going to be hard for the rest of the suckers, but some one has to get stuck with the tab for the party.

@Sandy P

Americans understand what they meant.

Does that include Jewish Americans?

>>Glad you mentioned it. In actual fact, yes, it was the Europeans, and they continued to do so until, uhm, 60 years ago.<<

Right! American Christians only slaughtered Negros after keeping them as slaves and still fight those pervert homosexual individuals. But they never killed jews. That was only the German Krauts and they would like to do it again if they could!

>>I said if it were a state -- I should have clarified, if it were a US state, it would rank in the bottom 50.<<

Good humour! Laughed a lot.

>>Also not good examples, especially since I just saw an English Die Welt piece<<

What, you belive in German anti-american propaganda?
In fact those northern countries are much ahead of almost any other country in the world. Nothing to be jealous, just something to look at and to learn from.

>>And minimize Norway's oil<<
I never maximized it. Norway is much more than some oil from the North Sea. They even have some famous pop-acts - as has Sweden.

>>I wasn't aware Germany was founded on Jewish values<<

On what else than on Romanian, Jewish and Christian values? Ok, there also were some traditionals from the Germanics. But those are the same values as everywhere in Europe and even in most parts of America.

@Niko

I hate to disappoint you, but not a German leftie.

My point is, this whole Christian values crap is all bullshit. It assumes that somehow the Christian religion is superior to other religions, e.g. the Jewish religion.

The reason why the U.S. has become such a powerful country and the leader of the the free world is that the Founding Fathers were wise enough to draw a line between Church and State. They did so, of course, because they were well aware what happens if there is no clear separation between the two. After all, coming from Europe, they had seen what happens if you don't. In Europe it was not only the Christians persecuting the Jews, it was the Christians persecuting each other (Protestants vs. Catholics, Lutherans vs. Calvinists, Anglicans vs. Catholics, etc.) Unfortunately, this knowledge has gotten lost. Now there are people like you, who, ignorant as they are, believe the wise separation between Church and State should be abandonded. I hope the Supreme Court will continue to stop any such effort in its tracks.

You know, the Founding Fathers were are lot smarter than you. That's why America is the beacon of liberty, and not like Northern Ireland, where people are killing each other for religious reasons.

Religion is bullshit. If there is no separation between Church and State you end up with countries like Afghanistan under the Taliban. Hey, Osama also wants everybody to live by the rules of his religion. Good luck arguing with him that your religion is better than his. Maybe you can start a new crusade and convince millions of muslims by force. I'm sceptical that they will become Christians voluntarily.

In an advanced capitalist, multi-cultural society, religion must be relegated to the private sphere. The goverment needs to respect religious denominations as social groups, but the governent MUST stay out of religion, especially it MUST NOT take sides for Christianity. If you think otherwise, you're a Christian zealot.

Amen.

@Niko

The first sentence of my last posting should read: I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not a German leftie.

@hingerl
Your comments are exactly what some mean by Germans being arrogant and reek of stupidity. You seem to be the typical proletarian who can't understand that the State can't continue to support you without giving something back to society. Also, I suggest doing more research.
What does Demography have to do with the social system? Where do you think the Government gets the funding for an ever increasing demand on services? The shrinking and aging populous will have a very hard time paying for the old people standing in line to get their share.
In America, the birthrate has decreased slightly, but it is still above the magic "2"
You really are showing your ignorance.

@americanbychoice

Your comments are exactly what some mean by Germans being arrogant and reek of stupidity. You seem to be the typical proletarian who can't understand that the State can't continue to support you without giving something back to society.

I think you're the one who sounds arrogant here.

Of course the German social model depends on healthy demographics.

This is exactly why I said I believe the German social model is deeply flawed. (Didn't you read my posting? Or did you choose to ignore this statement that I made in the very first sentence?)

My criticism is directed at the following sentence in David's posting:

So, as you can easily see, things are moving in the right direction under the guidance of the German Social Model.

What guidance? What's the correlation? Does the flawed German Social Model make the population shrink? How so?

Again, I'm not defending the German Social Model. Do away with it. It's no good. But chuck it for the right reasons. Doing away with it won't make the population grow again.

Duh!

well, europe may be overrun by muslim, but the US will be majority mexican in just a couple of years, thanks to GWB capitulation to el presidente fox. so, you better start learning espanol or else la Raza will get you.

@ hingerl
You don't seem to understand sarcasm?
Germany has known about those demographic problems back in the early seventies when the Kindergeld was started. They thought paying it's populous for having kids would encourage reproduction
However, Germany, as a whole has become too lazy to breed.

Niko,

One point about history and the decline of civil states. In the old days, working class, professionals, small businessmen couldn't go anywhere. Where they were, even in decline, was as good as it gets-so to speak. Now a days, liberation, if not full citizenship is a discount airline ticket away.

Interestingly, just as in the States the welfare/lefty/pay-us-more-than-you-earn states are losing their young, skilled population to more youth/business growth states. Like Florida and Texas( Did someone say Bush States?) The same phenom is being played out at the nation level. Brain drain, business flight to the US and others.

(Lefties, sorry for the post. Nothing to see here, move along, move along)

@hingerl,
Keep harping on christianity all you want. America was founded on Judeo-christian principles.
Let me explain the basic differences between JUdaism, christianity and Islam.
Jews believe in the old testament
Christians believe in the old an the new testament
Islam basically believes in the old, the new and Mohammed (3rd testament?)
Be careful what you wish for, you may get it. Lambasting Jewish and Christian principles will leave you very lonely and without support when Islam takes control of Europe.
They just won't take your infidel rhetoric as lightly.
Judging by your comments, you couldn't be more than 25?

>>You're so deranged that you fail to realize that, for instance, Germany is currently ruled by the Christian Democratic Union<<

That`s absolutely wrong, Germany is ruled by three parties and the CDU is just one of them.

>>America is the beacon of liberty exactly because they still believe in Christ.<<

What has Christ to do with liberty? Better: Is there no liberty in other religions?

>>The driving force was not your "lack of separation between Church and State" thingie, but the lack of religious freedom.<<

Right, religious fundamentalists had no place in most parts of Europe, still not have - except of Turkey and the Vatican I assume. Oh, and I forgot Northern Ireland.

-->>I said if it were a state -- I should have clarified, if it were a US state, it would rank in the bottom 50.<<

Good humour! Laughed a lot.--

I didn't post that lightly, Imbecilia. I posted it for a reason.

Instapundit's archives link. start at the bottom.

http://instapundit.com/mt/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=1&search=Sweden+as+a+state

May 05, 2002
VICTIMS OF FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS: Though
VICTIMS OF FALSE CONSCIOUSNESS: Though they think of themselves as prosperous, Swedes as a group are actually worse off than black Americans, according to this Swedish study. Swedes are trained from birth to view their society as a compassionate one in which everyone prospers, while the harsh capitalism of the United States makes some people rich and leaves other people destitute. Er, except that what it really does is make some people really, really rich, and leave other people just, well, richer than the Swedes. Best excerpt, highlighted by reader Todd Bass who sent this link:

"Black people, who have the lowest income in the United States, now have a higher standard of living than an ordinary Swedish household," the HUI economists said.

If Sweden were a U.S. state, it would be the poorest measured by household gross income before taxes, Bergstrom and Gidehag said. . . .

@Niko

Here, for your enlightenment, you can read up on the concept of separation of church and state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

America is the beacon of liberty exactly because they still believe in Christ

LOL. Please explain. I'm curious.

What does Christ have to do with the U.S.?

Good Lord, I thought you were somehow reasonable, but now you're sounding like a religious nut.

Thanks for making clear in what kind of values you believe. Tolerance certainly is not one of them.

Oh, I tolerate your religion. I just don't want to be bothered by it. You can pray and go to church and all the rest of it. But keep the government (and me) out of it!

And, Mr. Christianity-is-better-than-Judaism, don't persecute any Jews, will ya?

@americanbychoice

Keep harping on christianity all you want. America was founded on Judeo-christian principles.

So was Germany. What's your point?

Ok, the bottom 50. What is the top 50 and what the middle 50? Are there so many states combined in the US? Just don`t get that point.

Er, and don`t forget, I never mentioned Sweden.
But maybe you will take a look over here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_World_Factbook

There is a nice chapter called "Oddities and controversies" in which even Sweden is named.

@Niko

Christianity in its modern interpretation offers the highest level of personal liberty among the Big Three.

Atheism offers the highest level of personal liberty. And I'm happy, too! I don't have to go to church, like you, Niko. Poor baby ...

@Niko

You're so deranged that you fail to realize that, for instance, Germany is currently ruled by the Christian Democratic Union (unlike America - no Christian Republicans - or Afghanistan - no Islamic Democratic Union), that in Germany there is a mandatory confiscatory Church tax

I'm glad the U.S. is not ruled by the Christian Republican Party (or the Christian Democratic Party, for that matter, he he).

In Germany, if you're not Catholic or Protestant, you don't have to pay any taxes to the church.

Did you know that it was the Nazis who came up with the Kirchensteuer (at the Reichskonkordat in 1933)?

The resident Jewish American Princess has arrived.

hingerl, if you care to assert that I may be insulted by people thinking Christian values are better than those of other religions, may I remind you that only Christians worship a Jew as G-d. That assertion also ignores the debt, devoutly acknowledged by Christian theologians, owed by Christianity to Judaism.

I have known Niko for years. He is not an anti-semite. I've encountered some unconciously racist posters here, but never an anti-semite.

The primary value Christian Europe - and I must assert CHRISTIAN as Europe has never been Jewish - is losing in its secularism is the value of the individual over the collective. I would refer you to George Weiner's "The Cube and the Cathedral" for elucidation. It's a quick read. I would also refer you to Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" - not a quick read and requires attention to a subtlely developed argument. Both books speak to the ennervation of the collective, one from a spiritual perspective, the other from an economic/political perspective. "The Cube" was written withing the last 2 years. "The Road" was first published in 1941.

>>"The reason why the U.S. has become such a powerful country and the leader of the the free world is that the Founding Fathers were wise enough to draw a line between Church and State."

Actually, that is not true. The Federal gov't was prevented from any activity that would forward the establishment of religion - and that was not in the Consitution, it was written later, as an amendment (2nd). The individual states, however, were not so enjoined.

>>My criticism is directed at the following sentence in David's posting:

So, as you can easily see, things are moving in the right direction under the guidance of the German Social Model.

What guidance? What's the correlation? Does the flawed German Social Model make the population shrink? How so?

Yes, actually, it does. Examine any collectivist society. The only possible exception I can think of might be China. However, good demographics have never been available for them, so I can't be sure. When the individual does not have the economic, political and social space to direct his/her own energies according to his/her own self-interest, that will be reflected in falling birthrates.

I will disagree with Niko about one of his points. Although most religious Americans are Christian, it is not belief in Christ that makes America what we are. It is the absolute respect for the individual to exercise freedom in his/her own understanding of the divine - or not. In truth, some of the finest people I know are adamant athiests and some Jews are going to have a lot to answer for. Yom Kippur ain't gonna do 'em any good. And in truth, some of the Founding Fathers were not Christian but Diests.

And don't even get me started on the Mormons!

>>Kanzlerin Merkel is from the CDU and has the Richtlinienkompetenz, so your "correction" goes nowhere.<<

She`s no "Richtlinienkompetenz" as the leaders of the other two parties (Mr. Stoiber and Mr. Müntefering) don`t gave it to her when they set up the contract last year. Maybe you didn`t get that.

>>Hingerl, the Wikipedia article is off-topic.<<

Is it? What about The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment? Is this really off-topic? Earlier you stated that there isn`t such a thing in the Constitution...

Umm, guys, don't you know about the Wikipedia controversy??? Are you sure you want to use it as a cite?

--
Ok, the bottom 50. What is the top 50 and what the middle 50? Are there so many states combined in the US? Just don`t get that point.

---

Each state is ranked in the US, they do move around depending on factors used.

For example - each state is ranked by education, per capita, size, population, etc.

Taking in all factors, Sweden would rank at the bottom which is usually where the Deep South ranks and has stayd for a long time.


Ok, Sweden would be one of the worst 50 states of the US. But again, what are the 50 best states and what are the 50 medium states? I just want to know where this 100 additional states come from!

@Niko

(Oh, and I realize you somehow believe that "Mr. Christianity-is-better-than-Judaism" were a valid insult. Following your line of "argument", if I were to believe that Pepsi is better than Coke I'd kill everyone who drinks Coke. Duh.)

Well, Pepsi drinkers didn't kill 6,000,000 Coke drinkers in the past.

(By the way, I'm outta here for tonight. Keep on posting, unhinged. I see a landslide for 2008.)

k, catch ya later, dude.

- unhinged

@americanbychoice
oh. dear.

>>Jews believe in the old testament
Christians believe in the old an the new testament
Islam basically believes in the old, the new and Mohammed (3rd testament?)

Um, not quite. Jews and Christians share an understanding of man's relationship with the Creator that Muslims do not. Specifically, J & C believe that G-d works thru his creations. As Benedict recently noted, the Book of Isaiah is the word of G-d and Isaiah, the book of Mark is the word of G-d and Mark. G-d's gift of free will includes the obligation to continually strive to better understand. The Koran, on the other hand, is viewed by Muslims not as the word of Allah and Mohammed, but only Allah, and as such is stuck.

hingerl
>>Keep harping on christianity all you want. America was founded on Judeo-christian principles.

So was Germany. What's your point?

No, actually, it wasn't, but that is neither here nor there. The point is that the values given to German society by its Judeo-Christian heritage have been rejected. And your implication that Niko is a potential Jew-killer by virtue of his supposed Christian zealotry dishonors not just 6 million of the murdered but all the Christians who risked - and sacrificed - their lives to save those they could.

If memory serves, was it the White Rose?

@Niko
>>Most Christians in Northern America don't buy into the Vatican's line. Ever attended American church service?

The most astonishing thing about American Christians' reaction to Ratzinger's elevation to the papacy is their surprise that the man is - horrors! - Catholic.

snort

Actually, I like him a great deal. And I think his intellect may be deeper than JP's - but we'll see.

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