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This article is - sorry - pure propaganda.

>>Of course, Germany isn't safer either, nor is any other Western nation. This is the "clear message" I certainly hope you hear from President Bush.<<

It´s not the things that Germany does that make it a safe place - it`s the things it doesn`t do.

Sometimes it`s better to free your own mind than to "free" the whole world.

Better luck next time!

"It´s not the things that Germany does that make it a safe place - it`s the things it doesn`t do . . ."

but allows others to do for it, which is the point of the editorial, the one you're apparently missing. It's about character, the character of individuals, and that of nations. It's a question of whether one is a contributor or a free-rider, or worse, a counterproductive sell-out.

Germany, like the United States, acts in different ways at different times, which is the reality of politics and humanity. But that does not invalidate the distinction between which is right and which is wrong that the author makes, even if the right position is not a "safe" one in the short run.

"How 'bout if we ship all these guys, unflushed Korans and all, to Germany?"

I was just thinking the same. These jihadis are pure as snow, just innocent little guys that we are bullying and terrorizing. Send them to Europe. Europeans love them and want to help them. European countries can give them nice flats and three squares a day.

As much as I may agree with the Washington Times' article, and a couple of the posters above, it's basically a rant. And rants don't get us anywhere.

The question in my mind, is there any hope for Germany? A friend of mine is of the opinion that Germany (and France, et al) are still very densely populated countries, and in their cold black stony little hearts, the Germans are still the Germans. When push comes to shove, they'll deal with the Islamists. On the other hand, I tend to think that the manner in which German's have historically dealt with these things is not pretty for other countries. Or themselves, for that matter. And regardless, it'll be too little too late.

What I'd like to see is some indication, any at all, that Germans have even an inkling of the situation they're in. But I fear the gulf really is too wide between the US and Europe. This is about the most reasonable website I can find, and even you really don't get it. You've burned your bridges, and outworn your welcome with the American people. Sure, Bush will say what great allies you all are, and babble about Western Civilization and our shared heritage. And in the coming decades, Europe will slowly succumb to Sharia law and waves of immigration. And this time, you will be on your own. Ya, I know what you're probably thinking about Americans right now. Well, reality bites sometimes.


"It´s not the things that Germany does that make it a safe place - it`s the things it doesn`t do."

I know. You Germans are so wise! Frau Merkel would never step to being George Bush's pudel on the world stage. Not like that terrible "Insel Affe", Tony Blair.

If Blair is Bush's Pudel, then Putin is Armin Meiwes! You know what that makes Schroeder and Germany?....Lunch!

America is the world's alpha dog, for many reasons, including the fact that the largest ethnic group is Germans. Germany is one of several beta dogs, but only for a reason: American protection keeps it there. Destroy that one-way relationship and Germany has the rest of the Greek alphabet to descend, on its way to oblivion. Auf wiedersehen.

PRJ, you know what happens to alpha dogs sooner or later, don't you!?

Fr. Merkel has not control over her foreign policy and she's under pressure undoubtedly to bring Gauntanamo up. Whilst that is her own views, who knows?
Any criticism of this meeting should be that Pres. Bush did not mention publically once about the curious release of Hammedi shortly before the accussed 5 million Euro girl, Osthoff, was freed by her Muslim friends in Iraq.
Hope he isn't letting this *united front* against nuclear proliferation in Iran detour him from calling someone on the carpet for this. Merkel probably expected it, so what gives, George??

Also I hope that both of these leaders aren't thinking that the UN will do something about it. Get real. Well, I know that Germany has been campaigning for a permanent seat on the Security Council so the angle can be seen. I wouldn't agree to this until Merkel can find a way to boot Schroeder's and Comrade Fischer's people out of the Foreign Ministry, but at the moment she is handcuffed.

@ Oh Eric! - If your Islamic Republic of Deutschland forcast comes to pass a good portion of the United States will be part of Mexico too the way things are going. We need to be more concerned about the folks we are letting in our country. We got a fairly fragile glass house ourselves on this issue.

I think it is far too soon to totally write off German/USA relations and be unduly pessimistic. Not all alliances last forever, I know, but just trying to rely on this 'special relationship' with Britain and/or the Rumsfeld fanatasy of New/Old Europe is not good or wise.

Since Roman times, the key to Europe has been Germania and this should be the focal point today of cultivation.

@ steppendraft: Well, nobody can predict the future. And yes, America has many of the same problems as Germany, but they are all quantitatively much less serious, and much more likely to be dealt with, in America (for a number of reasons I'm sure you can figure out for yourself). I've been seeing these trends for far longer than these little articles coming out since 9/11.

And I don't completely write off the potential of a future German/USA relationship, but currently there isn't one of any substance. It's all there for propoganda effect, due largely to Europe's history. Yes, you can find little incidents where a few German agents did something here or there, but they are few and far between.

Someone mentioned America is the alpha dog, and someone else implied that alpha dogs get pulled down eventually, as if that contradicts the first. Germany's got to realize that it's not even a beta dog *currently*, in terms of substance. And that it has burned oh so many bridges with all this talk of "bushitler" and Reagan being a "cowboy" and their duplicitous conduct with the middle east and backroom deals. Well, we're not perfect, but we get our problems out into the open eventually, and deal with them, eventually. I'm confident that we'll do what's need to survive.

America would be a poorer place without a Western Europe, but behaving like a bunch of *explitives deleted* (towards those who have been nothing but generous to you) isn't going to save your butt. They have a lot of ground to make up, and I for one am not in the mood to cut them any slack. In poker you shouldn't throw good money after bad, and I think the analogy applies.

But I'm sure Bush will have nice things to say. And Merkel will bring up something, just as an example, like a UN seat for Germany. And no matter how laughable the idea is, and how much it exposes Germany's grandiose self-image, Bush will behave like a gentleman. Which is a mistake, Germany needs to have its delusions shattered before it can make any real progress.

Rant over. I feel better. Maybe rants do do something.

@ Oh Eric! - We won't survive any longer than Germany if Bush and his ridiculous immigration policy, or should I say, "non policy", keeps ruling the day. We won't survive long being *Fortress Americana* either if it goes this way

I have no reason to be optimistic about the future of German-American relations;the situation is grim. Anti-Americanism has long replaced Xiananity as the religion of the European ruling classes and educated folk, and we know how powerful religious memes are.

Many are throwing up their hands and calling Europa a write-off but we have to remember Europe had faced situations more periless than now and it was still standing following catastrophic set-backs. So, doomsday sayers need to tread a bit more cautiously. I believe that the USA will lose the Republic more quicker than Europe becomes Islamic. Like all Alphas, we have big Achilles heels. Edify yourself and read "Chimpanzee Politics" by Frans de Waal sometime in case you haven't.

steependaft: Well, I agree about Bush's silly immigration policy, but there are already rumblings of a grass roots backlash. And as I said, our immigration problem is far less serious than Europe's. Mexicans' are by and large hard working and have a family oriented culture very conducive to civilized behaviour. Europe is not so lucky.

Yes, no country can survive as a Fortress. But there's always India and Australia and Japan, and other 2nd level countries. These will likely be our true allies going forward. I don't know de Waal, but I gather his lessons would be better learned by Europe than the US.

And yes, Europe has faced very perilous situations, and still stands. But where would they have been without outside help? I'm not so sure they'll be getting it in the future. Throwing time and energy down a rathole has never been a good strategy.

There is no link I can provide, so I'll just key in the last paragraph of an entiroai in today's Wall Street Journal. I wish I had written it

Thus Mrs. Merkel's obesiant raising of Guantanamo. No doubt it's the politcally smart thing for her to do. No doubt she does not want "Gauntanamo" and all the other shibboleths of Bush-hatred and antii-Americanism to get in the way of restoring a necessary alliance. But until Mrs. Merkel deals head on with the moral and intellectual rot that passes fo sophisticated discourse in Germany, the battles of the past will not lie and the alliance will not be restored.


Moral and intellectual rot. I like it.

@ Oh Eric!: Where may I ask do you live?? Your rosy picture painted describes Asian immigrants, not the Mexicans. Go into a barrio at night and you will see their "civilized" behavior very aptly. That they are hard-working, I grant that. Yet they are driving down wages, many do not bother to speak English(why should they when companies and local governments pander to them with Spanish applications, instructions etc) and they bring their criminal gangs with them across the border. They do not assimulate or intend to assimulate as a whole. If you look at the demographics, the USA will be the Mexican States of America before we see Eurabia. And George Bush is essentially one of the reasons for this with his Free Trade sell-out of my Republic. Even Hillary Clinton is to the 'right' of him when it comes to this issue, at least publically for the political purpose alone.

This grass-roots backlash you speak of will go belly up like about all grass-roots movements do. Nothing will be done that is constructive because of politicians the way they are, and the Cultural Bolshevism that has taken over the memetics. We are just as tied as the Europeans are with their immigration problem, and again, ours is worse than theirs.

Europeans have always had outside help in their perilous historical situations?? Ever hear of Charles Martel, Jan Sobieski?

"Time and energy down a rat-hole" you say? That defines Iraq, does it not?

And Frans de Waal is a Primatologist . His work "Chimpanzee Politics" applies to all hominids from a sociobiological perspective.

steppendaft: You're amusing. "Cultural Bolshevism that has taken over the memetics"? Whatever. Sounds too much like a German philosopher who uses too many big words. Maybe if you live on one of the coasts, or work for the National Coucil of Churches. Here in Ohio, I'm not seeing much Cultural Bolshevism. Maybe too many fat people, and corruption in state government, but not much bolshevism going on.

Yes, Mexican immigrants are a problem, but the hard numbers say that Europe's problem with Islamists and demography is much worse. But believe what you want. I'll just add one more thing: when riots happen in the US, it's because they want to be part of the system. When riots happen in Europe, it's because they don't.

Well, yes, if you go back far enough in history, Europe has been reasonably self-reliant. I was speaking more recently, like the last century or so. But ok, point taken. If you think Europe is going to relive it's glory days, then good luck with that. Maybe they'll get a good deal in an oil for diplomatic duplicity scam with Iran. Colonial rape and mercantilism always was Europe's way.

That's one of the major cultural characteristics of Europe in my mind. Frantically scrambling for one deal after another, and who to take advantage of next, rather than relying on hard work and a solid economy of your own. Not saying that's the only thing that characterizes Europe, there are many good things to say as well, but they're beside the point at the moment.

And you calling Iraq a rathole doesn't mean that Europe isn't one, in this regard. So I take my point there as undisputed by you. Notice I did not agree that Iraq is one. I happen to think Iraq is going admirably well. One of the few things I give Bush credit for, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

Yes, I googled Frans de Waal, and read a little about him. I'm sure it's interesting reading, but his books probably won't make it onto my list. Life is too short.

Well, NAFTA et al have been a bipartisan mess, but Hillary has been pretty supportive of free trade, so I'm not sure what recent nonsense she's been spouting recently to make you think she's to the "right" of Bush on this. Of course, it's kind of hard to define what right vs. left means on this subject...and it's really too big a subject and again, too off topic.

Time will tell, I suppose.

Rathole Europe - some nations with a higher standard of living than USA, better educated than Americans; most Europeans know that the world wasn't formed in six days and human beings evolved - didn't come directly made to order from dust for guys, the female from a guy's rib.Pretty good for a rathole, I say.

Haven't we spoke on 'glass houses' before, Eric?

Cultural Bolshevism is the more apt term for multiculturalism and it's appendage political correctness, and it doesn't come directly from any specific German philosopher and it can be seen in Ohio too if a citizen ever watches TV, reads a newspaper or ever leaves the house;memes is a word which its etymology is Greek going back thousands of years and it is commonly used with educated folk in all Indo-European languages.

Next time you goggle, compare demographics of immigrant populations. Since you think life it too short to learn anything new that contradicts the notions of your ideological shoebox, whatever it is( a common trait found in both Marxists and religious oriented folks) I'll give you a sneak preview:
Muslim population of Germany: 3.7%

Hispanic(just the 'legal' count) population of the USA: 14% with a 58% growth rate to compare with the 3% growth rate of Americans of European ancestry. The median age of Hispanics is 25.8 to compare with the 38.6 of Americans of European ancestry and their growth rate is less than 3% per annum....

Hablo espanol??

Doesn't take much for anyone to be to the right of George on immigration, and God's Own Party (GOP) are outsourcing and de-industrializing the Republic quicker than the other Free Trade party is, the Dems. But I reckon that's okay when Bible-believing Christians are doing it this by some people's standards.


This is the link to the Wall Street Journal referenced by Pamela above.

It is not as glowing as most of the articles which have appeared.


re: rathole. A rathole is something you throw your valuables down, and see nothing in return. Your points are not only factually incorrect, but beside the point. Except to the extent that there are small areas in Europe that have a higher standard of living than US as a whole. But that still beside the point.

I understand the words, yes including 'memetic'. I was making a point about your use of them, and of personality, which you have amply demonstrated again.

I've got no problem with Hispanics. Aside from the fact that not all of them are recent immigrants, and so your point is, once again, wrong, they're some of the finest people I know.

But I think it is telling that in the end we come to an open display of bigotry. Both racial and against Christians. And no, by the way, I am not a Christian.


"Merkel deals head on with the moral and intellectual rot that passes fo sophisticated discourse in Germany, the battles of the past will not lie and the alliance will not be restored"

The socalled west was a result of the cold war and of commen enemies in the east.
Now this cold war is over and as always in history a new time begins and new alliances. Europe and especially germany can now disagree with the US because we don´t need the US anymore ( beside the fact that the US is a huge market). That was simply not possible in the old times.

The same is true for the US there are other regions that are more important to the US in the future.
There will be no alliance in the future as we had it in the past. The NATO is dead and it is just a question of time when the US or a common EU army will end this project that has no function and no purpuse anymore. Until that day we will hear less and less of that organisation as we did in the last years.

It is not the question of a socialist or conservative german government or a republican or democratic american government.
"moral and intellectual rot" i am sure you can find a lot of german newspapers saying hte same about the present situation in the US.

It just shows that it is time to say good bye to the former partnership and say hello to the new order where we agree on a lot of things but also disagree on perhabs even more things.
Where the EU is the main focus for germany and where perhabs russia becomes more important to germany than the US because of its resources and other geostrategic reasons.

@steppendaft: I'm beginning to think that you are really a European masquerading as an American. Your nativist ranting is basically expressing a European philosophy of tribalism and exclusion of outsiders from the "family". I have no problem rejecting most of your contentions out of hand (such as your claim that Hispanics by and large aren't assimilating in America) because I can see with my own eyes that it isn't true. You seem to have missed the bit in fourth-grade history about how America was founded by immigrants and has always had, and relied on, high immigration levels.

If you really are American, you've spent way too much time hanging around your local KKK chapter.

@Cousin Dave: I wasn't going to say anything, but you're not the only one. Among other things, he doesn't seem to be famliar with American idioms, which sends him off on tangents unrelated to what was said.

While I agree that Mexicans living in the US are not the same problem that many Muslims living in the EU countries are, I will point out that there are many Muslims living in the US are, and that most of the same adjectives applied to praise the US Mexicans also apply to US Muslims.

Serious, hardworking, an asset to the community. These apply to both communities. The same thing can be said about most groups of US immigrants, and also to many immigrant groups in Europe's past - notably the Jews and the forebears of the Muslims in France and Germany.

I therefore argue that the problems experienced in continental Europe with Muslims in recent years stem not from the Muslims but rather from the social systems of the countries experiencing the problems. Countries like France, Germany, and Holland tend to pay young Muslims to sit home and in many cases actively discriminate against allowing young Muslims into preferred places in higher education. Most of all there is open discrimination against young Muslims in the job market, to the point that Muslim unemployment is many times greater than the average rate in these countries.

So France gives them money for doing nothing. They have time on their hands, so is it any wonder that they burn cars and riot in the streets? Or go to college at Uncle Osama's academy in Afghanistan?

Everyone has to have purpose in life. Most people in the US work, and find their purpose that way. When the French state pays you not to work, many will find purpose in making Jihad.....

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