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First. The above is certainly better than the recently implimented British test which was quoted as including such questions as "what do you do if you spilled someone's beer in a pub."

I am not clear how the citizenship process works in Germany. Do individual states bestow citizenship or is it a federal responsibility. In other words, do the above examples have the force of law or are they part of a party platform.

My question would be what happens if someone fails this test. Are they returned from where they came from? Or are they not granted German citizenship. If they are not then what are the actually partical effects of that. Do they loose their soical welfare benifits?

I was under the impression one needed to live in Germany for 8 years before they could apply to become a citizen.

That 30-topic loyalty test is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Like they won't lie. It's simply throwing stuff at a wall hoping something sticks.

Try this.

For men: Have him scrub a floor on a woman's orders.
For women: Have her give the order.

@Pam

I like it!!
yeah they could lie...
but maybe they could be reminded that if they lie, Allah would not be happy
and they wouldn't get their 72 virgins..
or hook em up to a lie detector.. tell em if they get caught lying they get to clean dung at a pig farm.

What is anybody comparing the Koran with the German constitution for? That's the problem, keeping the two (religion and state) seperate. They (the Muslims - but not just them, unfortunately) don't get that yet. And what Germany really needs to do is finally open itself up to immigration. Once you're born a German citizen here (you've got Turkish parents, say), for example, a lot of this gets taken care of by itself = integration. But more importantly... Those women have to definitely stop wearing those bizarre cloths! <;-)

What, only 21% of Muslims living in Germany believe the German constitution?! It should be 100% if they want to be citizens of Germany. Is Germany trying to let terrorists immigrate into Europe so they can target Americans? And eventually anything Western? Do you know that the Taliban killed a school teacher in Afganistan yesterday because he was educating girls? Is that what you want to bring into Europe? I don't think so.

integration does not equal assimilation - look at frogistan and the roving band of 20 on New Year's Eve.

---

I don't know if this was a true story or not, read it on a blog a couple of years ago.

Someone was in Paris, and sat next to a group of girls from Texas.

Seems they were rehashing the events of the night before when they were at the Eiffel Tower late, a couple of males - who looked mid-eastern came up to harrass them - they kicked the crap out of them.

Don't mess w/Texas.

@amiexpat -
yeah they could lie...
but maybe they could be reminded that if they lie, Allah would not be happy
and they wouldn't get their 72 virgins..

To a muslim, lying to kuffir is like oral sex with another woman is to Bill Clinton - it "doesn't really count".


@clarsonimus -
What is anybody comparing the Koran with the German constitution for? That's the problem, keeping the two (religion and state) seperate. They (the Muslims - but not just them, unfortunately) don't get that yet.

They won't "get that", either. Islam is not like most other religions in this regard; in order for Muslims to consider Germany's law to be just, it must comply with the Koran. It appears that you might hail from a society whose values reflect Christianity, and may not realize to what extent. Let me contrast Islam's ideas on the matter to Christianity's for you.

Christianity views secular governance as being ordained by God, and sees its edicts as applying only to its own believers. It views its governance as subordinate to secular governance, and instructs its followers to obey secular governance so that the two may exist side-by-side without conflict. Germany's laws don't have to be compatible with the Bible for Christians in Germany (although I'm certain they prefer that it is). Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's, and all that.

Islam also believes that secular governance is ordained, but does not make the distinction between secular and religious governance - to the eye of Islam, you can't keep them separate because they are meant to be the same thing. There are centuries of detailed law and scholarly debate behind the body of code known as Islamic law, and it is not designed to augment the state - it is designed to be the state. Its edicts are written to apply to both Muslims and kuffir alike, not just muslims, and it is not subordinate to the state - it supercedes the state.

By expecting Muslims to "get" that separation of church and state thing, you're expecting Muslims to discard a central Muslim tenet. It ain't gonna happen. It's like telling Christians to go ahead and keep practicing Christianity, but just lay off that whole "love thy neighbor" bit (or, if you're of a more secular bent, telling football (soccer) leagues to do away with scoring). The question "What is anybody comparing the Koran with the German constitution for?" is like "What is anybody asking 'What would Jesus do' for?" It's a core component of the faith.

I see no problem with the loyalty test as long as every applicant has to take it.

I'm not sure about the electronic foot tags, though:

"The second initiative originates in Lower Saxony, where the interior minister, Uwe Schünemann, also a CDU member, has stated he would consider making radical Islamists wear electronic foot tags ... It has potentially large implications. If hate preachers are tagged, why not the many other non-violent Islamists who also help create an environment promoting terrorism? Their ranks would include activists, artists, computer gamers, couriers, funders, intellectuals, journalists, lawyers, lobbyists, organizers, researchers, shopkeepers, and teachers."

Couldn't others be tagged as well then, like all foreigners, Bush supporters, etc.?

Sounds like a powerful but awfully dangerous tool to me.

The test may allow the government to withdraw the german citizenship if an applicant lied to become german citizen. This happened to three kurds in the state of Hesse:

http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/index.jsp?rubrik=5710&key=standard_document_6032182


The foot tags? I'm all for it. And not only for radical islamists, but also for rapers. Any discussion about it will be over after the first terror attack hits Germany. Sadly, people have to die before common sense will prevail.

Pipes doesn't say, and I think doesn't know, that those proposals have a snowball's chance in hell to be realised. I am always amazed at the benign attitude of the average American towards Germany (different from their attitude towards France, for example) and their basic willingness to believe anything favourable or to INTERPRET things favourably.

Electronic foot tags can make a technical lay who watches movies change his behavior, but how much impression do they make on a terrorist who is experimenting with electronics to build improvised explosive devices?

>>What, only 21% of Muslims living in Germany believe the German constitution?! It should be 100% if they want to be citizens of Germany. Is Germany trying to let terrorists immigrate into Europe so they can target Americans? And eventually anything Western? Do you know that the Taliban killed a school teacher in Afganistan yesterday because he was educating girls? Is that what you want to bring into Europe? I don't think so.<<

I think you`re disguising the truth.
The 79% are just not knowing the constitution, not every idiot is a terrorist.

not every idiot is a terrorist.

Oh, I beg to differ...

What`s here to differ?

I'd argue that idiocy itself is a form of terrorism. Innocent people, guilty of nothing more than going about their daily lives, are terrorized by the idiocy of others every day.

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