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When you live in a post historical paradise you can spend your time and energy musing about things such as Kyoto, the ICC and where ever else that seems to fly in over the window transom.

Since Americans do not live in this paradise, having to explain this to them is understandable.

Equally I am sure most Americans did not even know such a paradise existed. I hope you also took time to explain the EU to them.

My question would be did their eyes glaze over or did they just politely nod?


@hingerl,
"Brainwashing" is not partisan. A person, especially in this case, children, can get brainwashing from any source.
The Muslims have the madrassas, the Germans their media, who are worshipped by the average citizens like gods, etc.
The purpose is to indoctrinate them into a certain way of thinking to prepare them for adulthood embracing what they were taught.
I find it very disturbing to see children being indoctrinated into anyone's personal political beliefs.

Wasn't there a similar exercise some decades ago? :)

Of course I could also use my own play on words and interpret "Helles Koepfchen" with an arian slant,
Blond hair and blue eyes?

@Sandy P

>>"--People were SCREAMING about Kyoto.. I remember thinking, geez that thing was killed by the Senate 4 years ago, how did it get to be Bush's fault?
Krauthammer nailed it best when he described it as Bush derangement syndrome.--"

The "demon Bush" charade is most clearly exposed in the original "Helles Köpfchen" article when it comes to Kyoto. Bush had virtually nothing to do with the US rejection of Kyoto. The Senate voted 95-0 to reject the treaty in 1997, for a number of very good reasons that still have hardly been addressed in the German media, if at all. Bush is just a convenient fig leaf, an icon, used to rationalize and disguise the promotion of anti-American hate, just as "Zionist" is an icon for "Jew," used in the same way to rationalize anti-Semitism. Hatred of America, like all hatred, has nothing to do with rationality, but is a predictable psychological consequence of the emergence of the US as the world's one superpower following the end of the Cold War. It became "mainstream" during the final years of the Clinton Administration. In those days, it was expressed openly and virulently in publications like SPIEGEL. Since then the promotion of hate for profit has drawn increased attention on both sides of the Atlantic. The promoters couldn't simply admit to the truth, that is, that they are hate peddlers. Hence the creation of "demon Bush" to divert attention from the ugly reality of anti-Americanism. Its devotees typically drool about how much they love their dear, beloved "friend," American, in the style of "Medien unter Druck" or "Helles Köpfchen," then launch into a hysterical anti-American tirade, thinly disguised as opposition to Bush. They usually tip their hand by ranting about things that Bush actually had little or nothing to do with, such as rejection of Kyoto, or by simply letting the mask drop after a few perfunctory and ritual swipes at Bush, hurling anathemas at America and its people in general, oblivious to the fact that the Bush fig leaf is now riding somewhere around their ankles. If you think anti-American hate peddling will disappear with the Bush Administration, don't hold your breath. Fig leafs are easy to replace, and the hate-mongers won't miss a beat once Bush is gone. Just wait and see.

higerl - (as helian explains) the throatclearing to which you refer is the functional equivaent of "Now don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are gay, however.."

@ex-democrat

Are you high? I was just re-posting my original posting.

@hingerl

>>"So where exactly do I "rationalize" the "brainwashing"?
And please explain what you mean by "brainwashing". If everybody who has different political views from yours is "brainwashed", then you sound awfully like a commie."

You rationalize brainwashing by arguing that "Helles Köpfchen's" indoctrination of children is OK because it's not really anti-American. "Brainwashing" is the indoctrination of children and others who lack the insight, information, and critical faculties to think for themselves with political, religious or other dogma. That is precisely what "Helles Köpchen" is doing. In defending "Helles Köpchen," you are defending brainwashing, whether you consider it "good" brainwashing or not. My comments have nothing whatsoever to do with opposition to the expression of ideas different from my own, political or otherwise. Rather, I object to the one-sided indoctrination of children with political dogmas when they are in no position to reject those dogmas or judge their accuracy for themselves. Call that indoctrination brainwashing, or whatever you like. My question still stands, hingerl. Stop dodging it. Do you find the political indoctrination of children objectionable or not?

@helian

You rationalize brainwashing by arguing that "Helles Köpfchen's" indoctrination of children is OK because it's not really anti-American.

Bullshit. I never said said that.

Again, can't you read?


>>"Bullshit. I never said said that.
Again, can't you read?"

No problem, hingerl, no sense beating a dead horse. If you could get it you would have gotten it by now.

@hingerl

no sense beating a dead horse. If you could get it you would have gotten it by now.

Exactly, you took the words right out of my mouth.

ahhh
the nuances of insinuation without outright declarations.

John Kerry would be proud!

Huan,

LOL

I wrote that, ex-dem, because of a story that went around on the web after 9/11.

A man born in france, but came here. Went back for a visit, and when coming back thru Customs, the agent handed back his passport and said, "Welcome home."

He thought about it, wasn't comfortable back in france, french customs would never say anything like that and realized he was home.

And as long as you're now a citizen, you are, too!

dave, that's just an amazing bit of blogwork!!
you get my beer of the day award for this one.
napoleans dog's on the animal farm?!!
the corporal would be proud of these clowns.

what makes people change? necessity.
what is their motivation? social status.
what could stop them? shame and loss of status.
is that ever going to happen if they control the media?no.
what is their greatest fear? you.
youre dealing with a generation of pampered babies that fell so marginalized because compared to their predecessors they havent done a damned thing. oh well..
will they kill to survive? of course.
do they HAVE to think? no.

i know you do all this for our benefit (we the living) and I really appreciate it. the emperor is naked, thanks for pointing.

This is true irony.

On one side, "Helles Köpchen" advises schools to do extensive group roleplay to teach kids that cannabis is for adults only.

On the other side, "Helles Köpfchen" feeds kids with the 9/11 fiction that Germany's leading expert on cannabis writes for the Indonesian market to make a living.

The author of the above "20 Lessons", Mathias Bröckers, uses to defend his botano-historic field of expertise with the assertion that America as the origin of cannabis prohibition was the Antichrist (resp. the closest secular image thereof). If Robert Anton Wilson is Americas revenge on Germany for the Nazis, then Mathias Bröckers is Germanys revenge on America for Robert Anton Wilson.

It would be intersting to see the German winemakers and brewers to go just as bananas over the Islamic alcohol prohibition, but since that threat is not enforced yet the Association of German Vinters does not hand out a similiar "20 Lessons" pamphlet about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Poor Germany, Johann Sebastian Bach did not need to worry about prohibition when he put the good stuff into his pipe...

OT:

You just have to love watching the nations of Europe. At times they are much funnier than anything either on television or that would ever come out of Hollywood. Equally, I know America has its moments too. But this is just too good not to share.

“An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that He existed 2,000 years ago.”

I can only think the Italians must not be making much progress with their case against the CIA. They need some victory to restore faith in their legal system.

Even assuming that the EU media will stop manipulating the masses and instead start informing them and presenting them boths sides of the coin,

Sorry WDIK, I thought your post was excellent, but this "both sides of the coin" thing just drives me nuts. You just happened to be the last person I've heard use it...used it many times in the past myself. However, I have to ask myself, "Both sides of what coin?"

The left and right?
American and European?
Pro-American and Anti-American?
ect....

Or does it really just boil down to...truth vs. lie and fact vs. fiction? There is only one truth.


If everybody who has different political views from yours is "brainwashed", then you sound awfully like a commie. Hingerl

This is what I mean. Political views based on what? The truth...or media propaganda? If your political views are based on what's being pumped into your head by, for example, an anti-American media that is skewing and ignoring facts and history...then yes, you are being brainwashed. I guess this could be considered one side of the coin.

I know humans tend to view an event in slightly different ways, and that there will be slight variances on how they would report on the same event. But I don't believe this is what's at play in the German media. I believe it's much more malicious...indoctrination of children for example.

Please excuse me, I hope that the point I was trying to make came through. I've had a long night.

James W

The expression "both sides of the coin" might not be very descriptive. I meant that EUropeans should be given the chance to hear what the Bush strategy really is all about. You're right, there is only one truth - the fact(s). There are several ways to deal with the facts, some are practical, some or not. They all have to be laid out, not only the ones close to the ideology of the media. Then the people can decide which one they choose to follow.

EUropeans always hear/read that the neo-con doctrine is wrong and outright criminal. They hardly ever hear/read anything that supports or promotes this doctrine. And if they do it's only token TV/newspaper interviews every few months, for the sake of "balance". Those interviews are quickly forgotten, if not ignored. This has to change.

EUropeans generally are more predisposed to relying on the media, on what they are being told. When that media tells them that there is only one side of the coin worth considering - in Bush's case, that he is a rotten failure - than there is no more dialogue, no more thinking, no more questioning, only mutual reinforcement of media-induced beliefs.

@joe/OT - On the website of "the fable of Christ" author Luigi Cascioli I see that his conflict with Jesus seems to be primarily over sex and nudism. One might think that his father beat him with the Bible on his little headstrong thing... maybe a summer holiday at a German FKK beach could deliver him from his nightmare of the state as a Pilatus?

>>I meant that EUropeans should be given the chance to hear what the Bush strategy really is all about.<<

Why don`t give that bloody Krauts some weblinks to school there wisdom about Mr. Bush and his politics?

>>There are several ways to deal with the facts, some are practical, some or not. They all have to be laid out, not only the ones close to the ideology of the media.<<

That of course is the only just way. I hope you are able to do that!

>EUropeans generally are more predisposed to relying on the media, on what they are being told. When that media tells them that there is only one side of the coin worth considering - in Bush's case, that he is a rotten failure - than there is no more dialogue, no more thinking, no more questioning, only mutual reinforcement of media-induced beliefs.<<

Do you think think this website or its partners will change this?

Hey, Imbecilia, do you know anything about Reason 3.0?

No, should I? But you didn`t answer to my requests nor to my questions!

Imbecilia

I saw you linked to a keyboard forum so I thought I would ask.

Why don`t give that bloody Krauts some weblinks to school there wisdom about Mr. Bush and his politics?

Because they need more than a few links, they are used to be told what to do and they want someone to hold their hands while they explore new ideas.

Do you think think this website or its partners will change this?

My cristal ball says ...... ooooops, sorry, I just dropped it ...

I`m more interested in hardware than in software so I don`t know much about Reason, sorry.

Sad, that you can`t give any links.

hingirl - You asked why George W Bush is hated. Here is my rationale for it.

1. There has been a 1st world consensus of realpolitik in the Middle East. For half a century Republicans and Democrats, Christian Democrats and Social Democrats have all united around the idea that the muslim, the arab, the brown guys sitting on all that oil were *different*. They were only amenable to strongman rule and better *our* strongmen then *theirs*.

George W Bush has apologized for this past behavior on the part of the United States. He has said that the policy of the US going forward will not be the same, and that the US will assist in growing a third pole in the ME, one that is not strongman or theocrat but pro-liberty and respectful of human rights. As that pole becomes capable enough to govern, the US will assist in the transition to freedom.

No major world power who participated in the old realpolitik consensus has followed his lead and similarly apologized and pledged reform. No major commercial interests have stepped up to the plate to follow GWB's lead. It is a courageous, and very lonely stand right now. Like most courageous stands, it is being vilified by those entrenched interests that are threatened. Those interests are large, powerful, and economically well off.

2. George W Bush is a Texan, and one of a specific type. He uses feigned weakness in order to draw his opponents out on a limb farther than they can climb back from and then happily saws it off behind them. He is a master of the tactic as demonstrated by the fact that it's still working 6 years into his presidential years. This tactic does make him look like an idiot but he doesn't care about his image so long as his agenda moves forward. No doubt, it gives him great pleasure that those who look down on him are defeated by "the idiot" time and again.

3. The US is the preeminent power of the age. This is simple fact. It is also simple fact that such powers have *always* drawn an "everybody else" coalition against them in order to prevent world domination by the preeminent power. These coalitions are driven by fear. It was GWB's fate that 9/11 happened on his watch and that he could not afford to lull the world as Clinton could through the feckless use of US power. That we have still avoided an "everybody else" coalition is, frankly, amazing to me.

How can we change this situation? I really don't know and I am often very disappointed. A smart man, the president of a German laywer organization said this:

"Es sei schon nicht hinnehmbar, dass Zustände der Rechtlosigkeit, wie sie in Guantanamo herrschen, nicht beseitigt werden. „Dass aber deutsche Behörden diese Zustände ausnutzen, um zu eigenen Erkenntnissen zu gelangen, ist unerträglich“, sagte DAV-Präsident Kilger.Folgen von Wegschauen und Schweigen habe man in Deutschland schmerzhaft erfahren. Hinsehen und Eingreifen sei erst recht dann gefordert, wenn feststeht, dass deutsche Behörden menschenrechtswidrige Zustände für ihre eigene Arbeit ausnutzen."

http://www.anwaltverein.de/03/02/2005/49-05.html

So he refers to the situation in Nazi-Deutschland (Wegschauen und Schweigen) but obviously he is talking about the US and Guantanamo!

There was and is nothing on our laywer websites about the real problems in the world: Scharia, death penalty for "little" crimes, no women rights in many countries of this world, no outcry when the 16 year old girl in Iran was hanged.

It is an association of regulation of the German Lawyer profession and the duties and functions of the Lawyer organisations.

In the archives backto 1999 I could not find any similar statement like this from december 2005:

Der Rechtsstaat gilt auch für Terroristen
DAV: Illegale Verschleppungen stoppen!

"Berlin (DAV). Aus Anlass des Europabesuchs der amerikanischen Außenministerin Condoleezza Rice bekräftigt der Deutsche Anwaltverein (DAV) seine strikte Forderung, dass Menschenrechte und die Grundsätze eines rechtsstaatlichen Verfahrens in allen Fällen und ausnahmslos zu beachten sind.

Nach amerikanischen Zeitungsberichten soll der ehemalige amerikanische Botschafter in Berlin den damaligen Bundesinnenminister über eine „irrtümliche“ Verschleppung eines deutschen Staatsangehörigen in ein Verhörzentrum in Afghanistan informiert haben. Der Skandal hieran ist nicht allein, dass offenbar ein deutscher Staatsangehöriger verschleppt wurde. „Es ist keine Situation denkbar, die es irgendwie rechtfertigen könnte, Menschen in eine rechtslose Lage zu bringen. Dies gilt unabhängig von der Staatsangehörigkeit und unabhängig davon, ob die Personen in einem terroristischen Zusammenhang agieren oder nicht“, sagte Rechtsanwalt Hartmut Kilger, Präsident des Deutschen Anwaltvereins in Berlin."

http://www.anwaltverein.de/03/02/2005/48-05.html


Nobody from the DAV worried when the leaders of China, Iran and so on came to Germany.

„Solange weder Anwälte noch Menschenrechtsorganisationen Zugang zu diesen Zentren haben, besteht natürlich der Verdacht, dass die Gefangenen unter Umständen sogar gefoltert werden“, so Kilger weiter. Die Zentren müssen deswegen geöffnet und den Betroffenen ein rechtsstaatliches Verfahren eröffnet werden." Said Kilger.

Any reason why only Guantanamo is on his focus? To ignore this is as bad as the bad time in Germany when people ignored the killing of the jews and others???

The DAV made never before a statement about any other country.

OMG! Niko, you made my day. I'd seen the Edwards primping video uncut before, but that was just beautiful.

@Helian -
but is a predictable psychological consequence of the emergence of the US as the world's one superpower following the end of the Cold War.

The cold war didn't end; the only thing that ended was a superpower that represented one side. The ideological struggle continues, America is still the most reviled enemy of the side that the USSR represented, and will remain so.

@Gabi - did you used to post at Iraq.net a couple years ago?

Doug, yes, I posted there for a while.

I thought that was probably you. ;) I used to post there as JTR.

I remember JTR. I stopped reading the forum and iraqnet. I got the feeling, it is a waste of my time. But I still come to this weblog almost every day.

Ich habe zufällig gerade vorgestern das Brett-vorm-Köpfchen besprochen: http://www.rebellog.com/text/blog/981/981-07.htm

Ich bin zu dem Schluß gekommen, daß die Seite trotz guten Lay-outs inhaltlich nicht empfehlenswert ist sondern oft, nicht immer, indoktriniert und den Graben zwischen Deutschland/Europa und Amerika mit Vorurteilen vertieft. Antiamerikavorurteile werden selbst auf Seiten wie Tierschutz und Galileo/UPS eingestreut.

Diese Kinderseite hätte viele Möglichkeiten mit 155 000 Klicks pro Monat. Es bedürfte einer souveräneren Redaktion um diese Seite als pädagogisch wertvolles Bildungsmittel Kindern zu bookmarken.

Robin, wie soll das denn gehen? Die Radakteure erkennen doch noch nicht einmal ihre eigene Voreingenommenheit. Wieviele Diskussionen haben wir mit Freunden gehabt! Da sind so viele falsche Informationen, das würde Jahre dauern, um die Defizite aufzuholen. Das geht durch alle Bildungsschichten, und die Journalisten gehören zu denen, die es nach dem Gymnasium auf den Unis und Journalistenschulen vertiefen.

Ich bin da ganz pessimistisch.

-->>I meant that EUropeans should be given the chance to hear what the Bush strategy really is all about.<<

Why don`t give that bloody Krauts some weblinks to school there wisdom about Mr. Bush and his politics?--
-----------

That statement is not only pure laziness - but lack of curiosity as well. You guys want to stand on your own 2 feet - do so. It also shows how uniformed your papers keep you.

I have a folder "blogs." I have domestic, econ, envir, education, gov and world subfolders. World contains The Americas, Europe and Down Under and their subfolders are specific sites like this one. I don't visit most of them every day, but I make sure to hit 2-5 to see what's going on.

I also have separate armedforce folders, US gov blogs folder, lawblog folder and money folder.

The American blogosphere is a very lively and somewhat threatening place for the MSM (mainstream media).

Why do you need US to tell you and other bloody Krauts where to find out info? You're on a computer and know how to use Wiki at least......

We're here, why aren't you visiting US forums?

In short, Imbecilia, - you might want to get out of your hole before you live down to your moniker.

Hingerl's original comment has not been taken to task for its most obvious problem:
The notion that one's personal circle of acquaintance is in any way representative of the population at large.
Most of the people in *my* neighborhood would also tell you they don't know any Bush supporters. At least they think they don't. Pretty typical for an academic enclave.

That said, I don't doubt that most western Europeans don't have a high opinion of the Bush presidency. But that says more about the near-monolithic presentation of the news outlets they rely upon than anything else. Should we put much stock in the opinion of the misinformed?

Was kann man schon von einer Seite erwarten, die bei ihrem Länderlexikon im Fall Israel haufenweise Mythen bzw. historischen Unsinn anhäuft:
Nach dem Krieg [von 1948] wurden die meisten Palästinenser vertrieben; die Juden verdrängten die Palästinenser; die Palästinenser waren gegen die Teilung der UNO [hä, welche Palästinenser, die wurden doch aus strategischen Gründen erst 1964 von den Arabern erfunden!], die Palästinenser führten mehrere Kriege gegen Israel [den führten immer arabische Staaten, außer dem Terrorkrieg seit 2000] usw. usw. usw. Zum Schluss der echt deutsche und absolut unverzichtbare erhobene Zeigefinger, dass die Israelis erstmal lernen müssen, dass man nicht immer gleich mit Waffen gegen Gegner vorgehen kann. Ja, wie denn sonst, wenn die anderen einen vernichten wollen??????

Wenn auf der zugehörigen Seite zum (nicht existenten!) "Staat" Palästina ganz tolle Kommentare stehen, die nichts mit den Tatsachen zu tun haben, sondern mit Wunschvorstellungen. Allerdings wundert einen gar nichts mehr, wenn man dann sieht, auf welche empfohlenen Seiten dann Links gelegt werden: Unter "Nachrichten" auf die Hetzseite "Palästina-Portal" (der Macher wurde gerade nicht nur von Henryk M. Broder verklagt und jammert herzzerreißend darüber) und auf eine notorische Israelhasser-Seite an der Uni Kassel; und im Bereich "Kultur" noch einmal auf das verlogene "Palästina-Portal". Wer solche Seiten empfiehlt, dem ist wirklich nicht mehr zu helfen.

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