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General question. What sources, pray tell, would you recommend that one actually use to get anything remotely close to the truth ?

Clearly, none in the German media. Presumably, few in the major media in the United States, seeing as how they belong to the consensus MSM.

But when the Vice President of the United States seems to support torture, then I can see where folks - in the US and elsewhere - rightly wonder what's going on. When the CIA seems to be overreaching in its fight against terror, then I support those who want to get to the bottom of it.

So where do we turn to get some answers ?

Cheers,

@Rofe

Good points and good question. I don't think we are going to get any real answers soon. As you say, the U.S. government doesn't seem to have been completely forthcoming and the media don't really want the truth to come out either -- they would rather have us believe that any excesses have been far worse than they likely really have.

Experience tells me that we will eventually find out that there have been excesses, but that these were not as extensive or sinister as the media would like us to believe. In the end, the American government will claim that there wasn't any torture except for a "handful of mistakes" and the media will claim there was widespread torture by equating sleep deprivation and name-calling with burning at the stake.

it's not the way to find the truth

Two questions:

Could you please cite examples where the Washington Post published news stories that were false or untruthful?

What national newspapers in the US are not part of "liberal US media"? (besides Rev. Moon's Washington Times).

Hi Vic,

I realize your inquires were not directed at me and I also occasionally put up comments are somewhat off topic, but you have piked my curiosity. Could you explain the relevance of your questions to the phrase you quoted and to the post in general?

[When the CIA seems to be overreaching in its fight against terror, then I support those who want to get to the bottom of it.]

So you are basically saying that you will be led along by the leftist media to the point of allowing yourself to be hypnotized into thinking, at any point in time, that the "CIA seems to be overreaching" on anything?

In point of fact, it was only 20 years ago when German G9 police were executing suspected terrorists summarily on the street and EVERYBODY ASSUMED that the CIA had wet operations that were necessary in the James Bond scene of international criminals and terrorists.

We were ALL raised on James Bond. We were all conditioned to a world that, because of leftist opportunism to "get" George Bush...has suddenly turned into the most pacifist fruitcake death-wish type of hand-wringers...NO WONDER ZARQAWI CONTINUES IN IRAQ!!

Please. If you read Medienkritik, you are supposed to be immune to being led along by the nose by the media. There is NO crisis regarding the CIA except the crisis of Merkel being too weak to stop the west from making it an issue in her own government (which, it is increasingly obvious, isn't hers). There is no sudden overreach problem. Torture probably saved a European city from being bombed. I would say 99% probability on that. I live in Germany as well, so my life may have been saved. TORTURE NEEDS TO CONTINUE QUIETLY IF IT IS WORKING!! The argument that I might die because the media made the arabs angry about torture...is a false argument because:

1) The blame would be on the media for tattling on the CIA, not for what the CIA actually did.

2) Who the hell in the Sunni arab world should be allowed to use arab media to continue spreading hatred about the CIA? The Sunni arabs need to start loving the CIA and joining the CIA if they know what is good for them. This war may end in a lopsided nuclear exchange if we don't stop accepting all the childishness that has been going on in the media. I keep assuming that Bush knows what he is doing in letting Al Jazeera be "anti-American"...we all know that a left wing American president never would have allowed Al Jazeera to be against him. The Europeans would have cheered the bombing of Al Jazeera by Al Gore.

Meanwhile, what is really going on now with the German media's sick and cynical "CIA Fluege" obsession, is that the Left and Al Qaeda wants to undermine Merkel and they are doing an excellent job of it. They have a monopoly over German thought.

I predicted this. She is forced to actually operate to the LEFT of Schroeder as Schroeder's policies of helping the Americans are "uncovered" (they were fine when Schroeder was in power).

So far, she seems much weaker and less trustworthy than Schroeder. She was frightened to go to Washington because she was too weak to handle all the poodle talk that the left would start. She won't make any pro-American speeches. Her support for the Iraq War she will not talk about. When she was welcomed to the chancellory, she allowed a chief of staff to tell Schroeder how wonderful he was for keeping us out of war. She didn't even wince. She just accepted flowers like a doe-eyed beauty pageant winner.

Our advice to Merkel should be to VOICIFEROUSLY STAND UP TO THE LEFT NOW!

And it is ridiculous that this Osthoff hostage is going to probably be holding Merkel hostage the next 6 months!

Merkel will never be allowed to talk tough against the left or Al Qaeda because she would then be blamed when Osthoff's head is cut off the next day.

Merkel needs to know that the Left, like Al Qaeda, doesn't respect weakness.

@beimami
The author of the post was implying that the "liberal media" was not truthful,publishing "allegations" that were picked up by the German media.

Funny how we always come back to the consensus. The consensus of Group 77, the Arab league, the OIC, the Russian's, the Chinese...and, of course, the French-German consensus.

Bolton wasn't just lip-flapping about the demand for a 'revolution of reform'.

As with the Iranian's, 'tick...tick...tick....'

What a lot of this boils down to, it seems to me, is how one views the concept of innocence and guilt. A lot of people pay lip service to the American ideal of "innocent until proven guilty," while deep in most people's hearts they treat people as if they're "guilty unless proven innocent."

Just look at this reporter's words:

"...the argument here in Europe is that the U.S. does not act in accordance with international law, as evidenced by a number of these investigations going on."

The implication the reporter seems to be making is that, because there are so many investigations, the U.S. has done something wrong.

Back-asswards.

I've got my theories, of course, as to why there are so many investigations (can you say "politics?"). But, in the end, it is, as someone whom we all know and love likes to say, "most unhelpful."

They're in rare form about the CIA affair over at SPON, in full feeding frenzy mode. They've been positively sedate for the last year or so compared to their unabashed hate peddling in, say, the last two years of the Clinton administration. Now, having worked themselves into a lather of virtuous indignation over the recent revelations, they feel they can drop the mask.

What can you say but, "Thanks, CIA." What an outfit, what pros! Nothing like having a spy agency full of crybabies who spill their guts whenever they don't agree with whoever happens to be in power. Nothing like trusting highly classified information to people who cream their pants whenever a reporter from the WaPo or NYT gives them the nod. It kind of dawns on you why we are so inept at human intelligence collection, doesn't it. I mean, would you trust your life to these people?

There would be a fine lesson here for conspiracy nuts the world over if they had enough brains to learn anything. Think the US government could successfully keep the Roswell aliens hidden in Area 51 all these years? Think they could have stayed mum about the "staged" landing on the moon? Think no one would have blabbed if the Bush Administration were behind 911? Get a clue! As we see now, and have seen time after time, even the CIA is so full of leakers that any information that can be used to seriously embarrass whoever happens to be in power becomes public knowledge in short order. And these are the same simians to whom we've given carte blanche to torture in the interests of "national security." What a joke! The America bashers are having a field day.

BTW, where are all the people who were pulling long faces, wringing their hands, and tut-tutting about the dire threat to national security posed by the "outing" of Valerie Plame. Suddenly they no longer have the slightest problem with leaking of CIA secrets. Go figure!

@Rofe
But when the Vice President of the United States seems to support torture,[...]

Not even your proviso mitigates your intent to spread garbage ...

________________________________________________________________________


The German media these days report hearsay as facts [...]

“Days” ??
What circumstance deserves this magnanimity ?

Information pertaining to the U.S. travel in that Shangri-la for purveyors of regurgitated falsehoods diagonally like a curveball from right to left , from true to distorted .

Small wonder , when even their intelligence service smugly peddles it’s own ‘curveball’s’ ‘hearsay as facts’ .

Re. renditions , try to brush up on , via : "Renditions : Constraints Imposed by Laws on Torture ". (pdf)

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32890.pdf

Regards ... Heinz

germanbiz, great comments!! when the fat and happy elites of eurosoc get together it IS so much like a beauty pageant..
No spine, all face-saving. Its such a joke. and the best part is that there's no direct election of anyone!!
I really can't work up any sympathy for euros that are this fat and rich while there are third world countries showing so much initiative to get into the game. Let europe and Canada rot if they want to live in their bubble of stupidity. Do we really need them?
Only for political support in the realm of popularity..
The American political system is all based on getting old, women voters out to the polls. That's the biggest voting block by far. Do the leftists really think that they care about this more than free drugs?!!
Do all of the pensioners in europe REALLY care about this secret prison subject or is this just a way to give background to why they should all vote for the nannystate?
Its about the money-for-votes scam and has nothing to do with right or wrong. Euros and half of America have completely soldout and to justify it they need little cheerleader "reporters" to assuage their guilt for ruining their birthplaces.
We're just awaiting the boomer die-off and the resultant repercussions.

Agree with playertwo. The comments by GermanBusiness were outstanding. But hsi advice to Merkel, "VOICIFEROUSLY STAND UP TO THE LEFT NOW" should apply to everyone who believes in democracy and self-determination.

And playertwo is oh so right about the (prescription) drugs.

@Helian
Yeah. We aren't getting the whole story of course, but something about the CIA really stinks right now.


After receiving a well-deserved but politely phrased email rebuke from Ralf Goergens, I should point out that my praise for the comments of GermanBusinessman refer to his argument essentially stating that Ms. Merkel is being dishonestly manipulated by the Left. I neither support the use of torture, nor do I wish to encourage others who think torture appropriate means of gathering information.

For those who like to use the theoretical argument of an imminent nuclear threat to a city, or somthing similar, I would say that such a senario requires no prior approval of coercive methods of interrogation. If the threat is truly so imminent and potentially catastrophic then I would expect that the authorities would take all necessary measures to prevent the act. The law allows one to protect oneself. That is what we have courts for. Torture (as I understand the term) as a means of gathering information or punishing suspects is inappropriate and acceptance of such practices weakens the moral fiber of American society.

Thanks Ralf for pointing out my oversight in the matter.


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