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Thanks, David and Ray. I've been flogging this all over cyberspace for at least 24 hrs.

On the previous thread, Querdenker makes what appears to be a reasonable case that, given the timing, there is no way the Hamadi release could be related to the relase of the German hostage. But I'm not knowledgable enough about German legal procedure to debate it.

Q's case for lack of extradition to the U.S. seems to me much weaker, tho'.

If it is simply a problem with a sentence of death under U.S. law being a possibilty, I'm sure we could have arranged something like Ulrike Meinhof's suicide.

Niko, remember when the Palestinians took over that Christian church last year? They were 'paroled' to Beirut with the provision they would abide by some 'house arrest' protocol?

No one knows where they are now.

Does anyone know if Lebanon if Hamadi's home country? I can't think of any other reason Germany would take him back there.

Well, I can, but I don't want to.

Time to discontinue relations with Germany. They rewarded the murder of an American, whom I consider more valuable than the entire country of Germany.

>>Time to discontinue relations with Germany

Well, something has to be done. Germany doesn't have many chips left to call in - more like none.

And don't anyone tell me to trash my Mercedes.

Well you took revenge already by forcing us (via EU) to accept artifial plonk from California :-)

Although this is a bad move because you are ruining the reputation of absolutely excellent Californian wines.

Oh, no, Q, don't saddle us with your EU problem.

You've got more problems than whaever artifial plonk is with the EU than you'll be able to fix in generations.

But given your demographics, you don't have generations.

What would you do if you were in our shoes?

artificial plonk = artificial American wine

As for the demographics: More kids, more qualified immigration

Oh people, people,

You cannot be surprised - really, please.

Equally why should anyone believe anything that comes out of Berlin.

This was an action taken in the best interest of Germany.

Americans have little recourse but to write their members of Congress and to the German government to protest.

I would say this is just another example of how the German government, no matter, which party is in power views both their relationship and the importance of that relationship with the US.

If what has been said / suggested (and what I believe) is true the new German government under Angela Merkel isn't better than the Schroeder one. I never saw her as the German "Maggie Thatcher" - now that would be a hard act to follow, wouldn't it... especially by someone who was raised in former East Germany - and therefore I'm not that surprised. Having said that this "deal" might prove to be one of Germany's darkest hours in the past twenty years. Expect the German media to focus more stringently on the shortcomings of George W. Bush and his administration in the coming days.

Merry Christmas nonetheless

I'm thinking about changing my screenname to "ashamed_german"

@disillusioned german
>>I'm thinking about changing my screenname to "ashamed_german"

Please don't.

I don't like 'disillusioned german' either.

What's the German translation for 'pissed off'?

Try that. Attitude counts for alot. ;-)

Actually I can only invite you to read everything McCormack said in the press briefing... and how he said that.

Botton Line:

They knew before the release
They did NOT file an extradition request
They expected Hamadi to serve "his full 25 years" (which is nonsense since life doesn't carry mandatory 25 years. The sentence Hamadi got just excluded his release after 15 years, but not at a later time which is typically set between 17 and 23 years)
They would have gone for Hamadi even if he had served out those 25 years.
They would have prosecuted him for the murder of the US citizen, exactly the crime Hamadi served his time for (double jeopardy)

And quite obviously the US didn't "then implement its policy of making every effort to make sure he comes to the United States", since it didn't file for extradition.

And you call us "weasels"?

Of course it would be very interesting to know WHEN the U.S. was notified of Hamadi's release. Knowing that would probably debunk the Osthoff connection as well.

And Pamela, I took a look at the LGF thread where you posted my comment. It was hard to find wading through all the "fuck Germany" comments. And I noticed that nobody seemed to bother much with real discussion.

At that point I lost interest in registering which was not possible anyway.

Merkel said she would not be blackmailed.

She never said she would not deal.

Gee, Q

Sounds very German to me about the comments on LGF.

Pamela: There's this old English word "bollocks"... I've been using this one a lot as far as German politics is concerned. This nation (without a God) makes me feel bad as I'm reminded that I'm still a subject of the state (hence the disillusioned)!

Merry Christmas - again

#125 jehu 12/20/2005 11:30AM PST
Fuck Germany!

#202 Andy in Agoura Hills 12/20/2005 12:28PM PST
The Krauts haven't learned anything in the last 65 years. Fuck'em.

Yup, very German

Easy solution for this one. Mr. Hammadi, meet Mr. Hellfire Missile. Querdenker...you neeed to get out more. There are some excellent California wines out there, and nobody's forcing you to drink anyway.


Why not try this one...

From the country who brought us the holocaust, is this any surprise they are incapable of doing the right thing? They murdered six million Jews and go about their business as usual. Why is one Muslim murderer of an American important?

Surprised? Not.

Really now that is a little overheated. You can not blame a German government which has been governing in coalition in power for less that 2 months for exchanging prisioners, if in fact that happened. Personally, I think it did but that is another matter entirely. Do any of these commentators remember the soul-searching during within America during the invasion of Grenada? Yes, we-dont-even-make-rum-Grenada. They made movies about it. The point is that America at that time was absolutely uncomfortable with the idea of projecting military force. Or think back even farther, did any one mention the possibility of armed intervention without an inordinate amount of handwringing between 1975-1990? they did not. If in fact what has been intimated bout Germany is true, that is very unfortunate, but hardly exceptional given the state of America's present allies (Italy, Spain, France...insert plurality of NATO here). Merkel did what was politically possible and to hold her coalition government to a different standard seems a little silly. The decisions she reached, I hope, are not what she would have liked, but then again what role does Germany play in the GWOT? Not much. Her positions affect us--see the leaders of the Hamburg Cell, but the Turkish guest workers dont seem prone to riot or assume extreme positions (those they are willing to back physically) vis-a-vis terroristic operations. IF in fact our latest Mohammed is under house arrest in Beirut, then we know where he is and I hope to God he flees to Syria. The Lebanese and Western foreign services are taking care of it. If he is important he will be dead very soon. So please if you must, blame the damn Germans but its not really that bad. Osthoff or whatever her name is is just another example of the romanticisation of Germans going native and that has happened for donkey's years: May, Mann & Grass. Chancellor Merkel is doing what she can. if you must rail do so against Schroeder, his administration (conservatively) has set German foreign diplomacy back 10 years.

Sweet baby Jesus are things so bad that wine must be brought into a politican discussion?
I think not.

(Berlin) Today a beaming Frau Merkel held a news conference to set the record straight about the release of Susanne Osthoff.

Frau Merkel stated all was not what it appeared to be and she wanted to give credit where credit was due. Frau Merkel stated under normal circumstances this would remain a “black” operation but she felt the world and especially the US needed to understand that Germany had the capability to carry out its own covert operations to meet strategic German foreign policy goals. Additionally she said the recent execution of a Nobel Prize nominee in the US made her decide to inform the world that Germany is a leader in both international law, human rights and the moral conscience of the West.

She stated that during her trip to meet french President Jacques Chirac she had assured him German foreign policy to undermine the US efforts to bring democracy to Iraq would continue as the covert position of her government. When President Chirac stated he was concerned about the upcoming elections Frau Merkel stated she would consult with members of her cabinet to develop a plan to both embarrass and frustrate US policy both in Europe and in the Middle East.

Frau Merkel stated a two-part plan was developed. The first part was relative easy. US Sectary of State Rice, thinking she was coming to Germany to repair relationships, played the willing fool. Frau Merkel in a private conversation requested information about CIA activity in Germany. Ms Rice gave the Chancellor a full and detail briefing. In the joint news conference the Chancellor related the entire briefing of US activity to the media. This has resulted in the European Commission and other organizations initiating investigations into the US’s behavior in Europe increasing the damage to the US and enhancing Germany's position.

Frau Merkel said she did not realize at the time how this would push the McCain Amendment to passage further damaging the US efforts on the War on Terror She stated Germany had done its part to deny as much useful intelligence to the US as possible.

Frau Merkel said the second part of the plan was more complex. First the Intelligent Service had to find a German citizen in Iraq who was not part of a German firm profiting from contracts to rebuild the destruction caused by the American bombing of innocent civilians. Luckily Susanne Osthoff stepped forward. The BND then flew a special team to Morocco to act as the kidnappers of Frau Osthoff. Frau Osthoff was flown to Morocco by members of an unidentified french intelligent unit. The french were very helpful in establishing this base of operation. They also insured wide distribution of the “kidnappers” demands both in the Middle East and in Europe.

These actions gave our government the perfect reason to release Mohammed Ali Hammadi. Mr. Hammadi is now able to join the fight against American imperialism in the Middle East and to free Iraq from the outlaw occupation it now labors under.

Frau Merkel was given a standing ovation by the gathered media. She said she could only take a few questions, as she was due to chair an organizing meeting for the next trade show to the Sudan.

When asked if she felt this would have a negative effect on US German relations, all she could do was smile. Finally she said she did feel President Bush, if he did figure this out, would have no negative reaction because he felt Germany was the key to a better trans-Atlantic relationship. She felt he knew that he must dance to the German tune, just as PM Blair discovered he must dance to the french tune during the EU budget negotiations. Frau Merkel stated, "Let no one question that Germany and france are the engines of Europe."

When asked about her future political plans, given her brilliant success to date, Frau Merkel indicated she was unsure if she would accept the Presidency of the EU or if she would become Sectary General of the UN. She stated it was a bit early to decide between the two positions. She then went on to state she would prefer the UN because she felt this was where German values and the German social welfare model of government could best be spread throughout the world. Frau Merkel did state however much would depend if the EU could in fact get the UN out of the US and to Paris. She said Paris in the springtime was wonderful.

With this she waved good-bye to the cheering masses and rushed off to help the Germany economy by increasing weapons exports to the Sudan.

This may have already been pointed out but the Germans certainly gave this up for Susanne Osthoff:
Deutsche Welle on 8 Dec. 2005 - Iraq Stops Sending Police for German Training.
Deutsche Welle on 18 Dec. 2005 - German Hostage in Iraq Free. Half-way down the article-

"They threatened to kill her unless Germany stopped training Iraqi police."
As for Mohammed Ali Hamadi, DW doesn't leave much to doubt -
"German officials had tried unsuccessfully in the late 1980s to use him as a bargaining chip to free German hostages held in Lebanon."
She's described as an archaeologist and aid worker. That's one way to put it.

Whether or not a "deal" was made or not is something we can discuss forever as none of us are from the security services (and even if we were we couldnt say).

Seems to me that if you dont want people kidnapped and murdered then you shouldnt pay ransoms or do deals when people are kidnapped. True the cliche of "We dont deal with terrorists" is probably a lie and a diplomatic impossibility but states shouldnt be seen to do so and there is a difference from keeping channels open and doing deals. Again though, if Germany has crossed this line we do not know.

What we can say though is that the release of Mohammad Ali Hammadi from German prison at exactly the same time as our German friend was released by her kidnappers is, even if pure coincidence, a completely stoopid thing to do. Even if we give the Germans the benefit of the doubt, this will send the wrong message to would be kidnappers in Iraq, whether they are politically or merely financially motivated. This is a fair criticism I think, after all why not release him in 2 months time?

Equally as worrying here in the discourse in general in Germany was the attempt to divide workers/ foreigners in Iraq into "good" and "bad" and in this sense "illegitimate" targets and "fair game". Claiming that she was a "good" visitor to Iraq because she was anti-war, German and humanitarian brings up the Cindy Sheehan dilemna because in effect we are justifying the agenda of the killers when the victims are the "bad" type i.e. young soldiers who fought their way into Iraq to bring democracy and spend their days rebuilding the country, training an independent Iraqi security force and securing young democratic institutions. This whole discourse of good and bad shows a very confused view of the world.

Good morning everyone.

This is covered on the front pages of the Washington times and the New York Times. Washington Post covers it on pg 23.

Wash. Times doesn't tell us anything we didn't know last night. The Wash. Post has a tidbit:
A brother of Hammadi was convicted in the 1980s of kidnapping Westerners in the Middle East in an attempt to pressure German authorities to release him. Later in the article (who edits this crap?) Hammidi's brother, Abbas, was arrested in Germany in 1987 and charged with helping to kidnap two german businessmen in a bid to use them as bargaining chips for Mohammed Hammadi's freedom. Abbas Hammadi was released in 1993 after serving half of his sentence. At the time, German news media reported that he was let go as part of a deal between the German government and Hezbollah to release two other Germans held hostage in Lebanon. German officials denied that assertion.

The NYT has a different twist: they assert that there is bad blood between the U.S. and Germany because the U.S. would not allow classified info to be used to convict 2 members of the Hamburg cell that carried out the 9/11 attacks. It also says U.S. officials have been aware for some time the Hammidi's release was in the works. This would seem to support Querdenker's assertion that the time needed to implement his release absolutely divorces it from the kidnapping and release of Frau O.

So we are left with what? Germany may have made a deal with Hezbollah in the past to trade prisoners for hostages. That doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. And Q., I would add one more note to your rundown of the State Dept. briefing. It was made quite clear that Sec. Rice did not personally involve herself in the negotions between Germany and the U.S. That in and of itself tells me the U.S. knew it was a lost cause. And it also seems to be the case that the German gov't at the Federal level has no jurisdiction in the matters at the German 'state' (should I say 'Landers'?) level. That is also common in the U.S.

Having said all that: Whether this release came about through malice toward the U.S. or just the ordinary grinding of the insensate bureaucratic wheels, the sheer stupidity manifested is frightening. Germany has suffered at the hands of Hezbollah and their ilk - Munich, fallout from Entebbe, Baader-Meinhof, etc. The absence of the will to protect and defend against a known enemy does not bode well.

Now Q, you accurately noted in the other thread the Marlin Fitzwater quote during Bush 41's tenure upon Hammadi's conviction: basically the U.S. was satisfied with the outcome. Well, even granting for the nicities of public, diplo-speak, that was not exactly true. But it was also before Sept 11. What we may have be willing to accept, however grudgingly, on Sept 10, 2001, is simply beyond the pale now. That should have been understood and an attempt made to work with the U.S. Whatever good will Merkel wanted to restore with the U.S. will be that much more difficult now.

So, evaluating this strictly from the point of view of German self-interest, this has to be worthy of the Darwin award.

So the German jails are leaking... how many other jailed Islamic terrorists are there that are wanted both by Hisballah and by America?

This isn't an anomaly for Germany, it's standard operating procedure.

After the slaughter of 11 Israeli athletes in Munich, the Germans captured and jailed three of the murderers -- then released them into the care of their fellow terrorists before they could stand trial. It seems the German government didn't want to bother with the political fall-out of trying the terrorists.

When it comes to Germany and its cold-blooded adherence to realpolitik, the only surprise is that people continue to be surprised.

Pamela, you make the assumption that Ms Merkel had any power to keep Hamadi in jail.

The decision to grant him parole was made on November 30th, following a parole process that usually starts months before. (I have read that in Hamadi's case it started one year ago). At the day of the parole nobody even knew who had Osthoff. And we know now that it was a Sunni group in Iraq who really had better things to care for than a Lebanese Shiite kidnapper jailed 19 years ago.

Since I first posted about this my claim that Germany couldn't have extradited Hamadi to the U.S. because of "double jeopardy" has been confirmed by friends who know better about these procedures. While the Bundesverfassungsgericht ruled that there is no codified international statute on "double jeopardy" (which meant that Germany could extradite somebody already convicted of the same crime in a THIRD non-EU country to another third non-EU country), Germany would be bound by its Grundgesetz which prohibits double jeopardy. The EU prohibits it, too. That means that if someone served his time for a crime in Germany he cannot be extradited to another country that wants to try him for the same crime.

Germany has resisted earlier attempts to free Hamadi by kidnapping German citizens in Lebanon (1989-1992).

The "dark spot" in all these dealings go back to the time of Hamadi's capture. Germany didn't extradite him to the U.S. fast enough because the U.S. insisted on the death penalty for too long.

>>Pamela, you make the assumption that Ms Merkel had any power to keep Hamadi in jail.

No. I wrote the exact opposite.

>>And it also seems to be the case that the German gov't at the Federal level has no jurisdiction in the matters at the German 'state' (should I say 'Landers'?) level.

I know I didn't use terminology appropriate to Germany, but I didn't know how else to express it. Later I realized I could have given the example of 'It would be like Bush telling Schwarzenegger he could or could not execute Tookie'. Not doable in the U.S. and not doable in Germany.

>> my claim that Germany couldn't have extradited Hamadi to the U.S. because of "double jeopardy" has been confirmed

I did the same investigation over here and confirmed the same thing.

>>Germany didn't extradite him to the U.S. fast enough because the U.S. insisted on the death penalty for too long.

Last night I listened to a lame discussion of "why this doesn't provide a good reason for the U.S. to drop the death penalty?". My response was "why doesn't this provide a good reason for the EU members to institute it?".

Joe, is half of the stuff you just said true? I haven't been playing close attention or anything, but can we get some links?
If half of it's true, I'd appreciate you referring to Frau Merkel as Hausdrache Merkel instead, thanks!

Hold the phone, folks... according to this post at Captain's Quarters, the Lebonese authorities have arrested Hamadi and are considering a U.S. request for extradition. It's going to be tricky for them because Lebannon doesn't have an extradition treaty with the U.S. Nonetheless, someone in Lebannon is trying to do the right thing... the thing that the German authorities wouldn't even consider.

@infideldogma -
Joe's comment smacks of heavy satire.

@Pamela -
And don't anyone tell me to trash my Mercedes.

Of course not! Naturally, you should have someone do it for you.

@Querdenker -
Although this is a bad move because you are ruining the reputation of absolutely excellent Californian wines.

That's ok. New York wines are just as good, and Oregon has some of the best in the world.

@Disillusioned German -
I'm thinking about changing my screenname to "ashamed_german"

Not a good move. People will think you're ripping off Ashamed Frenchman (hangs around No-Pasaran, E-nough etc.).

Cousin Dave
>>Lebonese authorities have arrested Hamadi

Big deal. That's like me being under house arrest in Nordstrom's.

(note to non-American readers; very upscale dept. store)

@Doug: NY wines suck. Try Virginia.

Virginian wines have been pleasant surprises and Oregon does indeed have excellent Pinot Noirs

@Doug: NY wines suck. Try Virginia.

Spend your next vacation in the finger lakes region and tell me again. :P

I heard the strongest condemnation of the Hammadi affair from former U.S. Assistant Attorney General De Genoa. He worked for Bush 41 and has since gone back into private practice. He appears on many talking head shows. Last night he appeared on MSNBC. He expressed disgust that “Germany has reverted back to the same mentality they exhibited during the Holocaust.” He also took a dig at Schroeder working for Putin.

Addressing Querdenker’s subject of double jeopardy: In the Anglo Saxon world of law, you have the concept of two sovereigns. You can be tried and found not guilty by one “king,” but you can be tried and found guilty, for the exact same crime, by another “king.” In the U.S. this has been interpreted that you can be tried by multiple states for the same crime and found guilty....and the double jeopardy clause of the U.S. Constitution does not apply. A recent example is Lee Malvo, the 17 year-old sniper. MD, VA and DC are all itching to try him for the same crimes.

It is interesting to predict how this will play out in the EU. Ireland, Scotland and England are all jurisdictions that follow English Common law. I believe that Germany purposely jumped the gun on this matter before the EU had a chance to determine if they had subject matter on this issue.

Also, Germany’s claim of constitutional double jeopardy is weak. They never had in personam jurisdiction of Hammadi. He was arrested in Frankfurt for trying to smuggle explosives. He never committed murder in Germany. The murder was committed in Lebanon. The victim was American and the murder was committed on a U.S. flag air craft. Hammadi should have been extradited to the US. This trial in Germany was just another bumbling example of the German government trying to play Ober Lehrer to the U.S.

I still think there should be a strong boycott Germany program on the scale of the French boycott. This would get Germany’s attention. Germany is now running roughshod over the U.S. Government. This needs to stop before there are major consequences.

@ George M

Always good to hear legal issues discussed by lawyers as opposed to laymen.

You may find Victoria Toensing's op-ed piece in the Los Angeles Times of May 28, 1989, to be of interest (http://www.digenovatoensing.com/inthenews/Germany_Needs_Fortitude.htm). I'm sure you recognize her name; I've mentioned this piece before. As to why Germany denied extradition, when Hamadi's arrest was made public, two Germans were taken hostage in Lebanaon by terrorists. As Toensing explains (and she led the negotiations for the US on Hamadi's extradition), Germany yielded to the terrorist's demand that Hamadi not be extradited in order to win the freedom of the two hostages.

Everything you said confirms, and nothing that Querdenker said contradicts, my belief that the German government (and I include the judiciary) could, if it wished, have arranged for Hamadi's extradition now to the US while following German law. It is especially infuriating that this happened, given why Hamadi was not extradited and Germany's lack of jurisdiction in this case.

Regarding a boycott, I don't see that happening, although I am noticing more Japanese luxury cars on the road here as opposed to fewer German makes (and where I live is critical market for Mercedes and BMW). I think this incident will be a part of a cumulative change in American attitudes towards Germany, both by the US government and the US public. I believe next year's World Cup could be a real eye-opener for the US public. If the US soccer team is treated badly by the German soccer fans, that could actually get some attention here. It is probably fortunate for Germans wishing for good relations with the US the games will not be broadcast in prime time in the US.

The "deal" that was struck in 1987 between the Kohl and Reagan administration certainly wasn't a pretty one. I can't recall whether the U.S. ever dropped the death penalty claim which prevented Germany anyway from extraditing Hamadi.

Deals always involve 2 sides. Now to claim ignorance is hardly brave. The US always knew that Germany would never extradite Hamadi after his conviction because of double jeopardy concerns.

Now George M, your Malvo example doesn't hold water. In Malvo's case different states can try different murders committed in the respective states. That's not double jeopardy. The US wants to try Hamadi on exactly the same charges he was convicted for in Germany: Hijacking and the murder of the US citizen. And I leave it up to you how you chose to apply the 5th Amendment... Germany is bound by its laws that clearly state that no person can be extradited to another country to be tried for a crime he was convicted for in Germany. Had the German courts found Hamadi not guilty, Germany could not have extradited Hamadi either.

The "25 years" that Hamadi was "supposed to serve" are fiction. The German verdict didn't have a minimum sentence of 25 years. And the US have conceded that they would have sought to try Hamadiu again even after those 25 years.

The decision to free him was made by the respec tive courts which had to consider Hamadi's life in prison and the chance he would relapse. The German RAF terrorists have almost all be released by now and noone has gone back to terror. The German parole board seems to believe that as well. Almost 20 years in jail can change a young man.

The Hamadi issue was never squeaky clean but the outrage is uncalled for. That people now talk of rendition to "bring him to justice" once again reveals indeed a worrying rift over what law means on both sides of the Atlantic.

Imagine O.J. Simpson's wife had been German and the Germans had, after Simpson walked free, kidnapped Simpson to try him again in Germany. Interesting discussion I imagine.

Not "so much for German law"
So much for Schäuble who is absolutely wrong in that respect (and thinking of the Spendenaffäre has a questionable relationship with the law)

And yes, bound by its law. Shame on Germany and its government whenever it breaks the law.

Niko, it should NEVER happen, period.
And I think Schäuble should NOT be in the position he is.
But why did Schäuble not stop the liberation of Hamadi then?
Schäuble, America's good friend?

@Querdenker -
Imagine O.J. Simpson's wife had been German and the Germans had, after Simpson walked free, kidnapped Simpson to try him again in Germany.

I, for one, would have applauded - unless he'd been convicted and served his term instead.

The extradition treaty between Germany and the US does not include double jeopardy cases, just as much as death penalty cases.

Schäuble could not have the guy extradited to the U.S. since legal procedures apply and we would have seen the case going up to the Verfassungsgericht.

Niko, you are barking up the wrong tree there.


You seem to know about this particular case. As such maybe you can answer some questions I have been unable to find answers to.

1) What German did Hamadi kill?
2) Where in Germany did this murder take place?
3) What was the legal basis for Germany to both try him, convict him and then sentence him?

Thank you in advance. If you could provide the sources for your answers that would be super.

As for you comments about the RAF and OJ Simpson, I am not sure how they relate to this case at all. It would seem you are again building you moralistic mountain to shout from.

As to any future actions of the US government, I would suggest maybe your government offer Hamadi some form of protection if this really is a matter of importance to you.

To answer you question about discussion, it might be interesting to Germans but it will not be very interesting here other than a murder/terrorist released by the German government for killing an American service member will finally be brought to justice.


Whenever Germany (or another country) catches someone who is wanted for crimes not committed in Germany or against Germans, the regular procedure is to extradite him to the country that has the most "rights" to try him, asks for extradition and follows certain legal standards. In this case it was the U.S. (Germany was not entirely unconcerned because there were Germans on board of the TWA plane, including a rather brave German stewardess.)

So what happenend: The U.S. did ask for extradition but did not rule out the death penalty. The German Constitution bars Germany from extraditing people to countries where they might face death penalty (or torture btw, which wasn't an issue back then).

The usual procedure (and unfortunately I don't know if this was followed in that case) is, that the U.S., after being a bit unhappy for some time, assures that death penalty will not be given (this is legally binding). In Hamadi's case (and that's the ugly part) Germany rather wished it didn't have to extradite Hamadi to the U.S. because at the same time German hostages were held in Lebanon. So the "deal" between Reagan and Kohl (probably) was: The U.S. insists on the death penalty, which means that you can't extradite him (saving everyone's faces) but you try him, he'll get life and we'll be "interested" in having him "later", fully knowing (the State Department acknowledged that) that Germany could NOT legally extradite Hamadi after conviction. The U.S. did know that "life without parole" does not exist in Germany (they also acknowledged that) and was aware that Germany would not keep Hamadi in jail longer than it had to. There is also no such thing as a "mandatory minimum term of 25 years", which has been copied by many papers and blogs.

Germany can try any criminal case (punishable by German law), when the criminal is on German soil and extradition is not an option. This is good because if Germany catches a foreign killer whom it cannot extradite to a country that has a "better claim" (because of legal reasons), it would be forced to liberate the killer. Instead it can try him. Btw the U.S. can do the same when it is convinced that the suspect couldn't get a fair trial in the country that asks for extradition. Imagine a North Korean or Cuban dissident wanted for killing in North Korea, would you extradite him? Why is Posada Carriles not extradited to Cuba or Venezuela (you DO have an extradition treaty with Venezuela)?

Hijacking and murder is of course a crime in Germany, too, so nihil obstat.

The only "mistake" that may have been committed now was that the German government did not instruct the prosecution to oppose Hamadi's parole at this time. Yet the court could have ruled for parole even if the prosecution rejected it (which was not the case).

By German standards Hamadi has served sufficient time. As I said most "lifers" (with aggravating circumstances) do get parole when they served between 17 and 21 years.

The outcry mostly stems from the fact that in the U.S. murder is punished by death or life without parole. In Germany this is not the case.

Had Reagan really wanted Hamadi badly he would have dropped death penalty and insisted on extradition. This would have forced Germany to extradite Hamadi. So blame Reagan as well. Typically diplomatic reasons prevailed, though.

The current U.S. government could have done more, too, if it really wanted to. It was informed of the parole process way in time and it could have made its views known very openly. This would have increased pressure on Germany to delay parole, as it obviously already had done in the past. But the court could still have insisted on parole.

And this really has nothing to do with the victim being American since murderers who killed Germans typically don't served longer.

So once again: Hamadi HAS been brought to justice. What you are complaining about is that he didn't get the sentence you are used to in America. Sorry, the relatives of Germans who have been put to death in the U.S. without having been granted their consular rights might have similar ideas.



You either have failed to do your research, telling a outright lie, or do not want to state the truth,

I am really not sure which of these it is.

The first lie you have choosen to write about is the death penalty issue.

That was in fact waived by the US in writing.

Want try to be a bit more honest in your comments.


"The extradition treaty between Germany and the US does not include double jeopardy cases, just as much as death penalty cases.

Schäuble could not have the guy extradited to the U.S. since legal procedures apply and we would have seen the case going up to the Verfassungsgericht.

Had he been extradited quietly (just like he was released and flown around the world no, quietly), it would have been a done deal (just like the 4 examples Niko brings up, but irrevocably done much much quicker), and somebody might have complained to the Verfassungsgericht later. Like somebody could have in those 4 cases, but didn't.

So instead of having done the wrong thing, and now having arguments about why the right thing couldn' be done - we'd have the right thing done, and there'd be some claims about how it shouldn't have been done.

As far as Schaeuble and the Spendenaffaere goes, his troubles appear to stem mostly from being set up (to lie in front of parliament) by his friends Merkel and Kohl.

no point arguing with you if you don't read. I have explicitly stated that this was my assumption since I don't recall whether the U.S. did waive the death penalty eventually. Germany and the U.S. made a deal over Hamadi back then. Had the U.S. really wanted Hamadi (and waived the death penalty), Germany would have been forced to oblige. Hamadi was used as a "bargaining chip" back then to save the lives of Herman hostages in Lebanon. That may not have been very clean but BOTH countries, the U.S. and Germany, agreed to the deal.

Btw if you have proof that the U.S. waived the death penalty BEFORE Hamadi was tried, please show it.

The parole process was "silent" but of course not secret. Hamadi had a lawyer applying for the parole. To send Hamadi "quietly" to the States would have created very nasty legal problems. This was not some secretly held prisoner.

Germany is barred by the Grundgesetz AND by European law to extradite double jeopardy cases. Now had the U.S. really wanted to hold up the parole process there was one easy thing to do. Since the U.S. was informed in time (and BEFORE the ruling) but knew that Germany couldn't extradite Hamadi anymore, it could have leaked info about the looming parole to the NYT and Germany would have seen a lot of public pressure which might have influenced the proceedings.

In the end it doesn't matter. We would have the same discussion in 5 years (25 years only?).

Germany's position on double jeopardy is stricter than the U.S. interpretation which has a loophole of "double sovereignty" which is even applied interstate occasionally (which in my opinion violates the 5th Amendment but that's just me.)


America did wave the death penalty. The Americans made no deal on this with the Germans. They were forced by the Germans refusal to hand over the murderer of a US service member. The Germans refused because as you stated they wanted to trade him for some German hostage. They had little claim on him.

I could go into a long post about the history of this case and how Germany in general treats terrorists. I think those who have followed this and other cases will know it is with kid gloves and not very seriously. For those who have not and those who are German they would never see anything wrong with these actions, the actions of their government or their opinions. Remember you and your nation represent the moral beacon to the rest of the world.

I did like your initial comment about murder being a crime in Germany. Too bad Tootie Williams did not fly to Germany, steal someone’s purse, and get caught. Based on your concept, then the Germans would have to try him for murder, as this is a crime in Germany and some how Germans have established themselves as the world judiciary. Because of their moral position on the death penalty and his return to the US would not be possible. Based on this case, he would be convicted, service his 15 years and be paroled.

Just think Tootie would be a free man today instead of dead.

Gee, Q this is a great idea for a business. Saving criminals from death. You could make a ton of money. The German government being the moralists they are would surely support you. It would be social justice.

There is good news in all. This incident has demonstrated the so-called common/shared values, which are, suppose to exist between the US and Europe are not so common and are in fact much different. They surely are much different at least when compared to the values Germans hold.

It has damaged Germany’s image in the US, made Merkel’s words hollow and empty. It has called into question the honesty of your MOJ. Actually it has caused a lot of questions about Germany. Most of them are not new.

It does say nothing has changed in Berlin. Hopefully this will demonstrate to more of the political class the need to distance us from you.

I see all of this as being something good.

BTW……the follow on post was also full of spin too.

I have to assume you are not calling the US AG also a liar as the DOJ has stated the AG personally asked that he not be released.


Believe what you wish.

I have no reason to believe anything you post. Therefore from this point forward I shall neither read nor comment on any posts you might make.

I realize as I hope others will too, that you do not know the truth if it were to hit you in the face. I accept this..

But you are German so why would one expect anything else from you.

I find the idea that one American should lose their life defending Germany to be both revolting and disgusting.

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