Here's What We Mean by German Media Bias...

(By Ray D.)

How would you expect the German media to react if two weeks of violent rioting broke-out in the United States and President George W. Bush failed to respond to the crisis for the first ten days?

Certainly, one could expect numerous articles pointing to the "social decay" of the American system and the dangers of too little "state" and too great a reliance on "free markets" and "capitalism" as was the case during the Katrina tragedy. And, without a doubt, one could absolutely expect to see the cover pages of magazines like "Der Spiegel" and "Stern" filled with the usual images of condescending Schadenfreude, accompanied by headlines such as, "America in Flames" or "Riots: The Forgotten Americans" or "Chaos in America: Social Injustice Explodes".

One could also expect, with a high degree of certainty, that the riots would be interpreted as evidence that George W. Bush is under further "massive pressure" and on the brink of failure and impeachment. The media would scream ceaselessly about the fact that Bush did not react immediately and wonder over and over and over again: "Where was the cavalry?!" Bush would again be portrayed as the purveyor of a cold, heartless and unjust political vision founded upon neo-conservative, capitalist principles that have supposedly left America devoid of "social justice". The media would further point the finger at the Bush administration and accuse it of complacency despite "having known" conditions were rife for social unrest.

But none of that happened. Why? Because the riots took place in France and the president was Jacques Chirac. Here are the cover pages from "Der Spiegel" and "Stern" during the riots:

German Magazine Covers during the French Riots: Only one cover (bottom-right) even mentioned France in a small subheadline...

Even more "conservative" magazines like "Focus" also took little if any note of the riots on their cover-pages. Why might that be? Why are the French treated with such discretion while the Americans are attacked, impugned and abused at every opportunity? Why are the same German media that so diligently seek-out scandal and disorder in the United States so content to downplay and even ignore such issues in France?

The answer to these questions is simple: Ideology. The French elites have grown to be the greatest intellectual allies of the German elites. They stand for the same model of "social democracy" and resistance to what is perceived to be "American-style" global capitalism. To criticize the failings of the French would be to criticize ones' own failings. To expose the many flaws of the French "social" system would be to expose the many flaws of the German "social" system. To overemphasize the failure of the French to integrate minorities and end discrimination in housing and the workforce would be to overemphasize the same failings in Germany. To question the viability and stability of French multiculturalism in the face of a rapidly increasing Muslim minority would be to question the same in Germany. To scrutinize the impacts of mass unemployment in Paris would be much like scrutinizing the impacts of mass unemployment in Berlin.

And so German media don't criticize, expose, overemphasize, question or scrutinize the French as they would the Americans.

And when people come to this site and ask us what we mean by "bias" in the German media, we can point to no better example than the recent lack of salacious, drooling coverage of the French riots that one could have expected with absolute certainty had they taken place in New York or Los Angeles. One need only look at the cynical, Schadenfreude-filled reaction to Katrina in the German media to erase any doubt about that.

Comments

[Scott_H]

Oh well. Now that France is back to the "normal" level of roughly 98 cars (on average) getting torched per night, there's really no problem, anymore. Right?

[Scott_H]

Btw, if you do the math, that's more than 37,000 cars torched per year. Which, according to the Chief of Police, is "normal" for France.

[Scott_H]

Oops. I didn't do the math correctly. That's more than 35,700 cars torched per year. Sorry.

[beimami]

You really hit the nail on the head this time Ray. The usual squealing about Bush, America and Capitalism, though pernicious and obviously slanted, is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The real problem is the stories that are left out. The Leftist media operates similar to any goofball who peddles conspiracy theories (Kennedy assassination, for instance): Select a few convenient stories or rumors and milk them for all they are worth, while completely ignoring any facts that "don't fit."

The newest conspiracy is of course the "secret CIA detention centers." Every rumor is reported on SPON as if it were a fact. While Spiegel worries about the rights of child killers, a guy who lived down the street from me literally died of unemployment a few weeks ago. I didn't really know him, but my wife used to work with him. He had worked hard all his life, but lost his job when the company he worked for went out of business. He was 55 and simply couldn't find another job of any kind.

[Scout]

@Ray, @beimami: How true, how true. The strange thing is, when I try to tell Germans -- who are not necessarily socialists and America-haters --that their news is filtered, they don't believe me. They contend that their news coverage is fair and professional and certainly not filtered. I've sent them to this web site, but it still doesn't seem to have helped. I'm beginning to think it is a lost cause, and I haven't even mentioned the Looney Left yet.

[amiexpat]

@scout..
always enjoy your posts..
I find it is a lost cause.. My favorite is a German who was telling me 'how it really is' in AMerica.
I am an American who lives in Germany. not exactly a flag waving patriot.
He was spouting such bullshit, I had to tell him.. the report you saw was not accurate.
I love his response.. 'why would they lie?'
no wonder Leni Riefenstahl had a captive audience.

[amiexpat]

I also enjoy the way the Greens have done very little moral preaching to the French about France's reliance on nuclear power. Much of France's electicity comes from Nuclear power. But do you think the Greens - Joschka Fischer enjoy your retirement, thank God your gone - would ever say anything about it? Why should they ? they have Kyoto and the USA!!!

[Scout]

@amiexpat: Well, it's good to know that it's not just me... kind of.

[amiexpat]

@scout..
It is kind of frustrating..
I have had the same conversations so many times, I don't even bother anymore.. or rarely at least.
I think global warming is an issue that should not be ignored, but this whole Kyoto thing ... hello it had nothing to do with Bush.
If Gore, the PRESIDENT pro tem of the senate and author of the book Earth in the balance couldn't get the Senate to ratify it in 4 years after the Senate rejected it in 1997.. well, it was a dead duck already, Bush had so little to do with it.. he announced its death which took place LONG ago..
but BUSH is the man who gets the blame.
I just dont get it.

[Pamela]

@amiexpat
>>I just dont get it.

On the surface it isn't rational, but the function it serves is (and it's the same as anti-Semitism).

In Europe, pride and self-respect have never been based on an idea, e.g., "We hold these truths to be self-evident" - it's been based on land, blood and class. But that into the stew-pot and you get the "nationalism" and racial chauvinism that was the scourge of the 20th century. Give it all up - surrender the national sovereignity, declare multiculturism to be the secularized god-head, and everyone and everything is equal.

And still fail. Spectacularly.

Look across the pond and see the Americans' success with a stew of profound patriotism, a sandpaper culture that will make any second-generation an American with exotic culinary tastes, and a delighted optimism that some things are better than others and we will all have the opportunity to aspire to the better and possibly achieve them.

Then go cut your throat.

The denial of facts, of history, the refusal to even investigate them for one's own illumination and understanding come from the uncomfortable sense that if one did just that, one would indeed have to cut one's throat. Living a lie takes alot of lying.

[FranzisM]

@amiexpat - "I also enjoy the way the Greens have done very little moral preaching to the French about France's reliance on nuclear power. Much of France's electicity comes from Nuclear power. But do you think the Greens - Joschka Fischer enjoy your retirement, thank God your gone - would ever say anything about it? Why should they ? they have Kyoto and the USA!!!"

Even more than that, they have 1968er icon and former kindergarten teacher Daniel Cohn-Bendit, who is picked as the leading Franco-German relations expert when the American academia needs an update. The Greens believe they could write a ring around France, so why would they take away the grande nation's prestige prostehsis untimely and spoil its rich naivité? Better let France inflate her ego for a while and make the Americans believe the whore had turned dominatrix.

The other, more selfish reason why not humiliate France into cutting her collective throat is that until the Iran case goes to the UN Security Council, the paper tiger of the Paris Agreement is the only thing that prevents the collapse of the NPT. The IAEA is like an alarm system that has never been tested, because the Islamic contempt of dogs spoils the role models in which the political animal personalities otherwise savaging in the legislatures could find their places - Mohamed ElBaradei is not a watchdog but a kindergarten teacher. Until Putin moves on, the security of France, and that of the IAEA, depends on the chance that the French civil war does not synchronize its strategy with the Iran diplomacy to collapse the Paris Agreement into a Munich Agreement. The foul Katrina brouhaha has only caused Chavez to intervene with development aid, nobody can really want Ahmadinejad to do the same in France.

[beimami]

@scout

Oh man! Your experience talking to Germans - even those who aren't America-hating Leftists - mirrors mine exactly. They have absolutely no clue how finely the news they see has been filtered. Otherwise decent and intelligent people are completely oblivious to the brainwashing they receive on a daily basis.

Like amiexpat, I too was never a flag waving patriot. And I am certainly not religious. But after spending the best part of the last twenty years overseas - mostly in Germany, I am sooooooo glad that I am an American.

[Eg]

Oh...do I like the top-right cover. It's just soooooo, 'all for the people-ish.'

Some of the Euro's already know they've been sold-out; unfortunately, they consist of a small and shrinking minority. Just a guess, of course, but when those of the generation which suffered through the 30's and 40's are just a faded memory or whose voices can no longer be heard; dark clouds will descend over the continent once again.

It sure doesn't look good from any perspective.

[FranzisM]

@Pamela - "Living a lie takes alot of lying."

Be very careful what you wish for, in a certain sense every culture is a "lie", but such "lies" are the only thing that can shield the source of its will to live from nature. Nobody is exempt from this, e.g. the Star Trek is just as much such a "lie" as the Greenhouse.

[Zyme]

Also mein Eindruck, weshalb das in den hiesigen Medien nicht so breitgetreten wurde, wie es bei Katrina der Fall war, lautet:

Es ist schlicht keine besondere Überraschung für die Leser/Zuschauer, wie sich die Lage in Frankreich entwickelt hat. Jedem wird sofort klar, dass soziale Brennpunkte nunmal eine Ursache für Fehlentwicklungen sind - oder dass eine hohe Arbeits- und Chancenlosigkeit das ansässige Gesindel auf dumme Gedanken bringen kann.

Auf politischer Ebene gab es schließlich auch in Deutschland eine intensive Diskussion, wie solche Zustände bei uns letztendlich verhindert werden können. Die Doppelstrategie einer Verbesserung der Integration dieser Gruppierungen auf der einen und eine breitere Vernetzung der Sicherheitsbehörden auf der anderen Seite erscheint plausibel.

Sollte es schließlich doch irgendwann zu ähnlichen Erscheinungen kommen, müsste man sich einfach überlegen, ob solche Verbrecher mit derartigen Handlungen nicht ihre staatsfeindliche Gesinnung zum Ausdruck bringen und damit ihre Staatsbürgerschaft verwirken - die Nicht-Deutschen kann man ja sowieso einfach abschieben.

Nur sind das eben alles Fragen, welche auf politischer Ebene zu klären sind. Das Volk ist damit nicht der verantwortliche Entscheidungsträger, also hält sich auch sein Interesse in Grenzen..

[Scout]

@Zyme: That is all well and good, but if we apply your analysis fairly and evenly, then we could _also_ say that it should be no surprise to the readers whatsoever that: When a hurricane the size of Germany hits the Gulf Coast, taking power, bridges, telephone lines, and who knows what else with it, and thousands of people who are accustomed to goverment handouts and lacking in personal responsibility and initiative ignore evacuation orders, that in fact, a disaster recovery effort may run into a few snags, especially when corrupt local and state officials fail miserably in their duties. Where's the surprise in that? I am at least not surprised.
Sadly, there is no fairness and balance. There was absolutely NO other angle of Katrina covered in the German press except "This human tragedy is Bush's fault and is an embarassment to a so-called superpower and the complete lack of federal response is racially motivated." That's what we heard in Germany, along with the eco-fascists like Trittin who claimed the hurricane was Bush's fault anyway because he didn't sign Kyoto.
No, Zyme, there is no fairness - there is no alleged surprise or lack thereof as you claim. Ray hit it spot on. It's media bias anyway you want to slice it.

[Bruce S.]

Dear readers,

Well I just found this site while locking for some notes of Queen's - Another one bites to dust. Just for information.

Well let me, as German, tell something about this riots in France. There where several documentations, news and everything in German media beside your only reference Spiegel.
So please don't comment further that our media is filtered. Better watch out for old newspapers arround that time. Many people reading Spiegel but it's a news journal.
If you wanna get informed objective watch Phoenix ( www.phoenix.de) or N-TV (www.n-tv.de) which was part of CNN media group until this month - or German "Tagesschau" (http://streaming.tagesschau.de/bb/redirect.lsc?stream=tagesschau/live1high.rm&content=live&media=rm.) - at 8pm German time.

I have to say a lot after reading several articles on this site. Well you do an big Articel about someone I don't really know called Mausshardt from a newspaper called TAZ. I even don't knew the newspaper and go to their page. Well and I am pretty sure it's a paper with strong opinion that has nothing to do with journalism. But we have also a right of opinion here in Germany. If you care about that is your thing.

But you could also have written an articel e.g. about the students going for LOW to German universities wafter huge parts at Mississippi were flooded. Or that Germans spend money to the Red Cross.

And well I think iraq war is a disaster cause this is a total different culture.
It woudl have been also a disaster if Germany had tried to free Iraqies people from Saddam Hussein. We spoke about it several years ago about it in school and pointed the problems out that exactly now happend. And even worser - after the war declaration of an invisible enemy called "Osama Bin Laden and his terrorism" you have a situation that won't be that fast under control again.

And you do not really think that is only a war for freeing Iraqies Civilisation?
Just have a look on www.costsofwar.com and tell me where this money should come from.
Did Bush asked every tax payer in your country if it is OK ? or only the 52% who voteted him?
Germany has about 80 million citizens and they protest If the goverment wanna have 10.000.000.000 more from them per year. well that must be round 25.000.000.000 for the US. But you reached round 74.000......... . Sorry but I had to point that out.

Well and let me speak for comments like "They nerve me with Kioto, Iraq war, gasoline eating cars etc etc." Well a lot of Germans don't have their leather trousers anymore or listen everyday to "Volksmusik". No parents does name their children Hans or Ernst anymore. Germany recultured a lot in the last 60years in my eyes.

And even some US citizens did also ( http://www.prussianblue.net ).

Best regards from Germany.

PS: "Sometimes the only wall between us humans is our language, and there where a lot of wars broken out for misunderstandable reasons."

[RayD]

@ Bruce S.

Osama bin Laden invisible? Is that what you would call September 11, 2001?

Getting rid of Saddam Hussein was a disaster you say? Compared to what? Do you know home many people Saddam's regime murdered Bruce? Is it any wonder that you are undereducated and underinformed when all you have to go on is the German media that rarely reported on what happened to Iraqis under Saddam and conversely reports on every bomb that goes off now?

And I guess if the cost of liberating Iraq was too high, you better be sure that the cost of liberating and rebuilding Germany was too high as well. Your assertion that you have such a developed "culture" is just another bankrupt way of saying you let others deal with the dirty problems in the world while they protect you. It's easy to talk about culture in Germany when you never have to get your hands dirty and live in a socialist pipe dream.

[Scout]

@Bruce S. I don't want to steal David and Ray's thunder, but welcome. I hope you spend a little more time at this blog. Then maybe you'll understand what we're talking about. You'll hopefully allow me a few comments on your posting. First, thanks for the English, but don't feel compelled if you get stuck. Several of the regular posters here also write in German, and I would guess most of the readers understand both.
On an almost daily basis, I review a lot of German media news, including but not limited to Die Welt, Rheinpfalz, Focus, SPON, n-tv, ARD, and ZDF. You're right in so far as there was coverage of the events in France... but you missed the point. What kind of coverage? What I saw and read was very short, matter-of-fact, unemotional, played-down, uncritical reports no more heated than a weather forecast. And as Ray pointed out, the weeklies hardly touched it. It begs the question why France is treated so favourably by the press, and the US only gets the negative headlines. Essentially, that is what this blog is all about.
No one is questioning "right of opinion" or freedom of the press. What we are questioning is a very clear bias in German media against the US, US allies, and conservatives in general, and in favour of socialist Nanny-State thinking. The very fact that you don't recognise that there is a problem is the point of one of my earlier posts. You don't recognise it because you've been exposed to years of filtered news and you have come to think it is normal. This is no bad reflection on you, and no attack on your values, intelligence or anything else.
The Iraq situation has been discussed here frequently. No one expected Germany to rescue the Iraqis from a cruel tyrant alone. What Americans expected was that Germany at least wouldn't get in the way of the effort and directly or indirectly work against them, as was the case. Of course, a little help would have probably also been welcome.
Please don't believe the Looney Left's "Blood for Oil" canard. I think if you get to know a few Americans, you might actually realise that many of us do in fact have some altruistic motives. Moreover, what's wrong with freedom and liberty? Why shouldn't the Iraqis also have a chance to live in freedom with a government of their choosing? How about changing the conditions in the Middle East to give people something to live for?
Yes, the war costs a lot of money. You can see that the Americans are willing to accept the risk to their own economy because this is something important. What is Germany willing to risk? Nothing.
The "change of culture" you point out is unfortunately the 68ers getting their hands on the levers of power, with predictably catastrophic results. Time to get some adults back in charge of politics again.
BTW, I'm American, and my oldest son is named Hans. But I don't like Volksmusic either.

[Pamela]

Bruce
>>Did Bush asked every tax payer in your country if it is OK ? or only the 52% who voteted him?

Well, that's an idiotic argument. The U.S. is a republic. Come to think of it, how many Germans will Merkel ask to raise the VAT? Just the ones that voted for her? Oh, right, there's all that proportional representation stuff.

>>And you do not really think that is only a war for freeing Iraqies Civilisation?

Nope. It's a war to free western civilization from Islamofacism. It's a form of totalitarianism in case no one told you.

>>after the war declaration of an invisible enemy called "Osama Bin Laden and his terrorism" you have a situation that won't be that fast under control again.

AFTER THE WAR DECLARATION??!! I do hope I am misunderstanding this. Do you really mean to say the U.S. declared bin Laden an enemy after we attacked Iraq? I could use some clarification before I comment on this, as I find it unbelievable.

>>Germany recultured a lot in the last 60years in my eyes.

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce. You might want to think long and hard about just how that 'recultured' happened - in the last 60 years.

Nice to meet you by the way. Greetings from the U.S.A.

[Assistant Village Idiot]

Bruce S, thanks for the effort. Though I think you have absorbed much of the bias around you, it is clear that you are trying to form your own argument on the basis of the information you know.

That's all we ask, really. We have confidence that we can win over those who give our ideas an honest chance. We are actually asking you to be more objective about America than most Americans are.

For openers: a poll of young Germans two years ago revealed that over 30% believed that 9-11 was a staged hoax, organised by we Americans against ourselves. That is simply insane. I might believe that 5% of any nation is insane, but such a high number indicates that the insane belief is affecting sane people. That so many believe it is prima facie evidence that something is terribly, terribly wrong with the information people receive in Germany. Not that the correct information is not available, but that it is dismissed or discredited somehow.

[disillusioned_german]

I'm sorry, Bruce but maybe you haven't been using the Internet long enough. Once you start reading media blogs and keep an open mind (which I'm aware few Germans ever manage to do) you should be able to notice how biased the German media are (the same goes for the British media, by the way). I live in Germany but haven't watched German TV or listened to German Radio for ages because they're programming is simply utter crap. The bias and anti-americanism has certainly grown since the re-unification. My theory is that German politicians (who are also at least indirectly involved in matters of programming) knew that Germany was going to go downhill economically and socially and therefore the programming became more nationalistic and biased against America. If more people could receive Fox News and get a perspective that's slightly different from the CNN / NTV tripe we might also have a change in attitude specifically towards the US. The reason why "our" politicians don't want any German citizen to see that perspective is that they're afraid of more of their people leaving the country. Trust me, my friend, this country - in fact the whole continent - has no future. But you won't hear / see / read it in the German media.

[disillusioned_german]

P.S.: To our American friends... I usually get a lot of "Happy Thanksgiving" wishes from the people I know in the US and I always return those (in actual fact I am the first to say "Happy Thanksgiving" normally). This time I want to use the opportunity to wish you a "Happy First Advent" - something you don't celebrate but, I like to think, is a custom you'd enjoy.

[disillusioned_german]

Forgot the link: http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/adx/index.html

[Mike H.]

@dg, OK, Happy First Advent to you and Thank You.

[Bruce S.]

@Scout : Thanks for this objective comment. I will think about it. :)

@Pamela: "It's a war to free western civilization from Islamofacism"

You can only say that cause you grew up in a conservative christian
country? - Osama Bin Laden e.g. could also say he wanna free world from
that Christianity. BTW: Did you know that Japanese still today speak from the "Christian Bombs" if they speak about the Bombs on iroshima and Nagasaki?

"You might want to think long and hard about just how that 'recultured' happened"
Yeah yeah thanks a lot also for using West-Germany as buffer
between democracy and communism. Not that DISCUSSION again. Believe me
that hasn't to do with filtered media - this is a fact.

"AFTER THE WAR DECLARATION??!! I do hope I am misunderstanding this. Do you really mean to say the U.S. declared bin Laden an enemy after we attacked
Iraq?"

First: After 2 airplanes crashed into the towers everyone knew that there must be a culprit. That US will search him/them and try to find him/them (Dead or alive? / "Search and destroy" words which fell often enough)
So well I can easily call it war declaration. DOn't you think it was one?
Well the "eye for an eye" politc which followed after 9-11 was the war against
in your words "Islamofacism" taliban. No comment why they could get so mighty ... - And then Soldiers marched to Iraq cause they "had" chemical weapons.
Didn't Hitler say that soldiers from poland move into Germany as reason for a war. Or am I bad informed? Aren't there any small parallels? Not ? Wasn't it easier to say Saddam Hussein contravened against human rights in several cases.

@d.g.: I'm using the internet about 7 years.
Yeah Happy First Advent. - Well FOX News did presentate the war on iraq like a show. Sorry but i watched it during the war several times and thought bout getting sick. War isn't entertainment and shouldn't be presentate as this.

"My theory is that German politicians (who are also at least indirectly involved in matters of programming) knew that Germany was going to go downhill economically and socially and therefore the programming became more nationalistic and biased against America."
:-> O.K. - thought my theories were adventurous.
I tell you if I feel the same :->

"The reason why "our" politicians don't want any German citizen to see that perspective is that they're afraid of more of their people leaving the country. Trust me, my friend, this country - in fact the whole continent - has no future." Well you and me are free to go anywhere. But it has something to do with national pride. You don't give up your country my friend. Even if sum
ploticians did a lot of mistakes in the last 15 years."
There will be more work than workers in about 18 years. So I think postivly
about the development of this continent.

To come back to topic - The riots in France where a reason of dismissed Integration in the subburb ghettos of Paris.
In Germany integrations starts in Kindergarten. And that parnets who won't integrate their children into society won't start riots I think. That's a discrepancy in itself.
We haven't Ghettos here or did you perhaps hear something about it in American News?
If yes tell me, I visit the place and send you some pics. :)

sincerely Bruce

[RayD]

@ Bruce S.

"Didn't Hitler say that soldiers from poland move into Germany as reason for a war. Or am I bad informed? Aren't there any small parallels? Not ? Wasn't it easier to say Saddam Hussein contravened against human rights in several cases."

Yes, there are absolutely parallels. Like Saddam Hussein, Hitler repeatedly violated international arms agreements and invaded and occupied smaller weaker neighbors. Like Saddam, Hitler committed acts of genocide and mass imprisonment and drove millions from their homes. Like Saddam, Hitler was the absolute head of a national-socialist oriented government that ruled with an iron fist. The one major difference is that the United States acted to stop one of these dictators before he could become an "imminent threat" and attain a massive arsenal with the potential to kill millions. Want to guess which one Bruce?

As for the Taliban growing strong: The United States also supported the Northern alliance and various other groups against the USSR. The power vacuum that ensued followed the collapse of the puppet government left by the USSR to rule Afghanistan. No one could have predicted that Osama and Co. would have emerged the dominant faction after much internal strife. Suggesting (as many on the loony left do) that it is all some big US conspiracy is absurd.

"Well FOX News did presentate the war on iraq like a show."

Can you give us some evidence? Why are so many Germans hung up on the use of graphics and music in US news? How does that make them biased? Isn't the content (what they are actually saying/reporting) what matters most?

[Toby]

@ Bruce S.

"@Pamela: "It's a war to free western civilization from Islamofacism"

You can only say that cause you grew up in a conservative christian
country?"

Um um, actually I happen to agree with Pamela and I did not grow up in a "conservative christian country". As a matter of fact, I am not even a christian (and if I am not mistaken, neither is Pamela). So you may want to reconsider your entire philosophy.

"The riots in France where a reason of dismissed Integration in the subburb ghettos of Paris.".

Were they indeed ? It's just that Spiegel and Stern have really tried hard to prentend they were anything but a failure of their sacred "integration" ideology - the real reason behind them allegedly being poverty and (of course) globalization. can you clear up my confusion with that contradiction in your Europropaganda ?

ironically, the only place i can think of where integration of newcomers actually works is North America (and maybe Australia/NZL).

"Well FOX News did presentate the war on iraq like a show. Sorry but i watched it during the war several times and thought bout getting sick. War isn't entertainment and shouldn't be presentate as this."

Are you sure you were able to understand everything said there ? Because from your English as presented here, I take it that you are not a native speaker. should you choose to respond to me, feel free to do so in German, if it is more convenient for you.

[Pamela]

@Bruce
>>You can only say that cause you grew up in a conservative christian
country? -

I say that because I've grown up in a free country. And I'm a Jew, not a Christian.

>>Osama Bin Laden e.g. could also say he wanna free world from
that Christianity.

That is not what bin Laden says and you should know it. Bin Laden wants to impose sharia on the world and set up a caliphate. If all he wanted was to be free of Christianity he could have stayed in Saudi Arabia - the gov't of which he also wants to overthrow. Did you not understand that part of my comment that referred to 'totalitarianism'? Your attempt to reframe my point into a clash of regligious cultures is risible.

>>Yeah yeah thanks a lot also for using West-Germany as buffer
between democracy and communism.

You're welcome.

>>First: After 2 airplanes crashed into the towers everyone knew that there must be a culprit. That US will search him/them and try to find him/them (Dead or alive? / "Search and destroy" words which fell often enough)
So well I can easily call it war declaration. DOn't you think it was one?

Ok, I THINK I understand what you're trying to get at. I think the 'declaration of war' was in the attack on the U.S. The U.S. simply took up the gauntlet. So the fact that a country attempts to defeat an ideology and its agents bent on that country's - and the civilization in which it lives - is wrong in your mind? Imagine Germany in the same situation. Would you do nothing? Meekly submit your neck to the sword?

>>Didn't Hitler say that soldiers from poland move into Germany as reason for a war. Or am I bad informed? Aren't there any small parallels? Not ? Wasn't it easier to say Saddam Hussein contravened against human rights in several cases.

Hitler did indeed say that. But the parallel is not there. Hitler lied. Bush did not lie. The intelligence - right now at least - appears to have been flawed, but it was not mendacious. Bush did cite Hussein's human rights abuses in his speech to the U.N. (Septebmer 12, 2002). Here is the text.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2254712.stm

Your attempt to draw a moral equivalence between Hitler and Bush speaks to the shallowness of your argument.

>>There will be more work than workers in about 18 years

That's an interesting perspective. What do you base it on?

>>We haven't Ghettos here or did you perhaps hear something about it in American News?

Speaking for myself, no, I have not heard of any immigrant ghettos in Germany in the American media or anywhere else for that matter. However, I have read about how difficult it is to obtain German citizenship for those born in Germany to Turkish immigrants.

Bruce, here's the reality. The world is under another totalitarian threat. While the U.S. spends blood and treasure to stop it, you and your ilk spend your time in denial. It's so much easier to pretend it doesn't exist and do nothing.

Listen, I've extended this invitation to others and I'll extend it to you. If you would like to come to the U.S. for a vist, I'll give you a place to stay. I'll help you get to anywhere you want to go and talk to anyone you wish to talk to.

[Pamela]

Bruce, one more thing. I don't know if you've actually read the National Intelligence Estimate the U.S. security/intelligence agencies developed on Iraq dated October 2002. Here's the link. Enjoy.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/nie-iraq-wmd.html

[FranzisM]

@Bruce - "BTW: Did you know that Japanese still today speak from the "Christian Bombs" if they speak about the Bombs on iroshima and Nagasaki?"

Is this a baseless slander of the Japanese, or can you provide a link for that claim?

If these bombs need their own name, then they should be called the Potsdam bombs, because that's where the multilateral ultimatum that legalized the attack was issued in 1945.

[Brock Landers]

@ Bruce:

>> >>Yeah yeah thanks a lot also for using West-Germany as buffer
between democracy and communism. Not that DISCUSSION again. Believe me
that hasn't to do with filtered media - this is a fact.

Which discussion? Which "fact" are you talking about?

Are you accusing the US of that too? What would you have preferred -- that the whole of Germany had been surrended to the communists? So everything would have been the DDR? Would you have preferred that? I don't follow your logic.

[Bruce S.]

@FranzisM:
"christliche Bombe"= Christian Bomb
( http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20564/1.html )

Information by an Online Journalism Crew.

My Information was from a book about the historical development of nukes. So I can't send you that analog link ;).
It was an information from a German prayer called Konrad Lübbert (born 1932) who was all arround the world to campaign for peace. He was very involved in a German foundation which fights for peace
( http://www.friedenskooperative.de/ ).

Peter Bürger (born 1936) - Author of the articel is also Prayer and Professor for literature.
He wrote a book (http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb5/frieden/themen/Atomwaffen/hiroshima-buerger.html) called "Hiroshima, the war and the christs".

"If these bombs need their own name, then they should be called the Potsdam bombs, because that's where the multilateral ultimatum that legalized the attack was issued in 1945."

Perhaps - or better Dresden bombs?

@Pamela:

Well I'll have a visit in the USA in future. Hopefully i will not get arrested at the airport ... ;)

"Hitler did indeed say that. But the parallel is not there. Hitler lied. Bush did not lie. The intelligence - right now at least - appears to have been flawed, but it was not mendacious. Bush did cite Hussein's human rights abuses in his speech to the U.N. (Septebmer 12, 2002). Here is the text."

I will have a look there. But "he" did not find chemical & biological weapons there until today, U.N. inspectors did not find them - but that was his/the main reason to attack iraq - there are still inquiries about manipulated information by the CIA - so after how much years you can call it a lie?
BTW. the link from the BBC? Isn't it filtered or wrong information ;o)

So I am not the only one with antitheses/inconsistencies here.

">>There will be more work than workers in about 18 years
That's an interesting perspective. What do you base it on?"

Well OK I cannot give you a link but there was a discussion in university based on the
declining population in Germany. Here is an articel: http://www.destatis.de/presse/deutsch/pm2003/p2301022.htm.

By the way a european pandemic wasn't now for 60years and WFO thinks that nature will hit back in near future (was told by an official WHO in a documentation about H5N1)" (more at http://www.euro.who.int/eprise/main/WHO/MediaCentre/PR/2005/20051027_1 ) - and also century catastrophe is missing also since 70 years in Germany. I won't hope they are right but also without this factors it seems to becom a good development in employment. Also the German goverment spends a lot more of money in science.

"While the U.S. spends blood and treasure to stop it, you and your ilk spend your time in denial. It's so much easier to pretend it doesn't exist and do nothing."

Well, in all respects of your over 2000 fallen soldiers. We lost 18 in Afghanistan.
Germany has about 1800 soldiers stationed in Afghanistan. We had 30.000 soldiers in the Balkan region.

So do not tell me something wrong.

@Brock Landers:

"Are you accusing the US of that too?"
Well I imagine there is something in the bible about "not accusing" someone if you are not free of sins. But did you ever read sumthing about "domino effect" and how afraid the US Goverment was. I spoke to a high army man this summer and he told me that the borderline was secured by 300.000 german soldiers and a smaller number of allied troups (mainly US, UK). But only to stop russians if they still were gone over the border. - In other words if Russians had attacked W.-Germany, the US government was not interested in recapture the parts which were occupied by the red army. All to keep the damage small. Hard - isn't it?

" What would you have preferred -- that the whole of Germany had been surrended to the communists? "
After the theory of the domino effect russians had move their troups to France then. Without this strong partner, the USA had lost a very important tactical advantage.
Undiscussable how fast russians had overrun the smaller neighbours.

Why I am better informed in your history then you? What did you learn about Cold War FranzisM ? That you had modern weapons? Do you know how much russian soldiers were at weapons during Cold War ? - So I think I can speak easily about W.Germany as a "buffer".

@BlogUsers in general:

I won't be ungraceful in the name of my grandparents. For sure not - they were happy to come ot of the war machinery made by the nazi's. I won't know if my granny had have a 17th Birthday if war hasn't ended, cause he had to go to an "u-boot" at the age of 15.

"NOT THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN" had the meaning "Oh no not 2WW again" but I think sometimes you don't come arround it and it will engage some more generations.
But the reculture has sumthing to to with guest workers first from italy then from turkey in the 60s - Come to Berlin and you'll see so many nations like in Paris or NY.
living together. Of course here are still facists but aren't they also in the UK, USA, South Africa and more? - What should I say now to represend my point of view without hurting your (all americans in this blog) pride. The reculture was possible cause Dönitz Jodl called all German soldiers to capitulate absolutly. Otherwise there wasn't Germany on the map today. But the trimmed minds of the Germans at that time had fought until the last man had died. You freed France but Germany freed itsself cause higher Generals with humanity ,like Graf von Staufenberg who paid with his life for his try to kill Hitler, saw how senseless this war was. The Germans saw that there weren't work camps but extermination camps. But it was the Marshall plan who gave the Germans back their chance to live and to decide the "good" path this time.

Now to explain another lot discussed comment by me "Iraq war = disaster".
Their wasn't any thing like the Marshall plan for the iraq. A plan was developed
after the attack. IEDs are exploding every day on the streets. Civilisation got from on to another problem : first a gruesome dictator - and now terrorist attacks gruesome and incalculable. The only finance source (oil) in hands of western investigators. The new government not accepted by most of the citizens.
(in my eyes good article: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jan2005/bush-j21.shtml )

sincerely Bruce

[dy]

I've been reading and enjoying this blog for a while now, but, not living in Germany at the moment, I didn't really have anything to add to the discussions. However, I couldn't let the comments about the "Christian Bomb" go unchallenged.

First, disclosure: I am a Christian, currently living in Japan, including a year just outside Nagasaki.

During my time here, including many conversations with locals about WWII and the atomic bombs, and reading various reports, I have _never_ come across this term. Bruce, I read your links and I only saw passing references by people who clearly had their own biases. Furthermore, no one I have ever talked to here had anything negative to say about Christians (and almost none about the United States). In fact, more so than most other places in Japan, Christianity is still practiced in Nagasaki, which I doubt would be happening if people had this kind of connotation.

By the way, I think Japan is a fine example of American intervention in a totalitarian regime which was a benefit both to the local people and to the world in general. Also interesting that few people at the time thought that democracy and stability were possible in Japan - exactly the same thing the MSM is saying about Iraq.

[Bruce S.]

@dy: Well perhaps. Can you investigate/research it for me?
Please have a try to translate christian into japanese and bomb and watch if you get any articles by the japanese. If it was a mistak of translation or even a disinformation by the media it has to be corrected immediatly. But the prayer I mentioned was there, too. So I can't put my word in a higher position than mine.
Can you do that favour for me please.
But have a second watch here the word Christian Bomb is mentioned in connection with muslims -
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/004/27.80.html
and here
http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.2001/book.htm
and here another article in which the Christian bomb is mentioned in connection with Japan
and here
" The Japanese said it was the Christian bomb used by white devils that did this."
http://www.emconf.ca/Messenger/40_03/featurem.htm
and here
http://www.gunghaggisfatchoy.com/blog/_archives/2005/5/26/888361.html
and here
http://www.christianforums.com/t51197&page=7
"No wonder that the A-Bomb was called (and still is) the "Christian Bomb." The most ardent defenders of the use of the use are American Christians."
and here
http://www.thesocialedge.com/archives/tedschmidt/columns-oct2003.htm

Regards Bruce

[George M]

@Bruce

I have to take sides with Dy.

All of your references have a Canadian nexus.

One reference is to a Canadian/Japanese author named Joy O. She talks about her “perception of American Christians creating a Christian bomb that landed on the most important Christian Cathedral in Japan.” She is trying to create irony with the illusion that if the A-bomb were a Christian invention, then why would the Christians bomb Nagasaki, the seat of Christianity in Japan. She is not writing that all Japanese conceive of the A-bomb as a Christian bomb.

For your information, Nagasaki was established as a Spanish trading port with Japan in the late 16th century. Japan had closed its door to all foreigners. However, they made an exception for the Spanish who traded silks from India for gold and jewels. As part of the deal, the Spanish were allowed to build a church in Nagasaki and were permitted to apostatize the native population. Christianity spread rapidly though out Japan, but unfortunately lead to civil war between newly converted Christians and Japanese xenophobes.

Your other web references all quote the same article from a Canadian preacher named Penner. (Good name for a Canadian :-). Penner is responding to the concept of “just wars.”.....that certain wars may be allowed by the holly scriptures. Penner is obviously a pacifist and does not believe in war under any circumstances. He writes, “The Japanese said it was the Christian bomb used by white devils that did this. Where is the witness of the gospel in all this?” These are Penner’s own words. He does not quote where he came up with this statement. It would leave a reasonable person to believe that these words are is own hyperbole.

[disillusioned_german]

Bruce S. wrote:

"BTW. the link from the BBC? Isn't it filtered or wrong information ;o)"

I don't believe you watch the BBC much (I do) otherwise you might have noticed that the BBC is the most biased News Organisation (I use that term loosely) in the Western Hemisphere. No wonder they're called Al-Beeb or "Ministry of truth". Check out the Biased BBC Blog if you want to find out more. Just because the German media are biased that doesn't mean there aren't media in other countries that are biased - take a good look at the reporting on the Muslim riots in France by the French media to find out more.

P.S.: Even though I'm a German I can't hide my Schadenfreude in regards to the loss of power after that "Snow-Hurricane" in Western Germany... if that had happened in the States, well...

[FranzisM]

@Bruce - So there now is a German writer who pretends that he was more Japanese than the Japanese so that he can exploit the apocalyptic fears of his customers at home? He can only rehash the lore about a "sacralization of the bomb", but he is not able to identify a single Christian, lay or priest, who actually invoked God to make an argument for a just nuclear war - because, in stark contrast to what we hear from Islamic religious leaders these days, in the West all such arguments have always been of a purely political nature not of a theological one.

Before Hiroshima, diplomacy was given a chance in Potsdam and produced an ultimatum that threatened "utter destruction", just like before Dresden it had its chance in Yalta and produced one threatening "complete dismemberment." Should they have written "In the name of God" over the declaration to satisfy the attention needs of the Tenno Heika? If you know the world of 1945 better than these diplomats did, then criticize them directly instead of blaming the powers unleashed by science on Jesus.

This Atomic Antichrist lore has nothing to do with the attempt to get the collateral risks from the capability of nuclear fission under control, but everything with an European sense of guilt to have brought theocracy into Christianity. After its success the rebellion against Holy Emperors and Princebishops finds its elephant graveyard in the activism against the Atomic Antichrist. The pacifists are longing for the golden age of Early Christianity free from any burden of mundane power under the umbrella of the (not really that benign) Praetorian Guard, and yet they don't see that the only way to build an independent security umbrella for a fragile world is a democratic monopoly on nuclear weapons.

What did you learn about Cold War FranzisM ?

All I need to know about the cold war I learned from the Gudrun Pausewang books under my family Christmas tree, and the fleamarkets in East Germany after the wall came down. E.g. the Marshall plan was a post-war ad-lib, just like we see it in Iraq these days. Thanks God the cold war is over, can we please move on now?

[Doug]

@Pamela -
On the surface it isn't rational, but the function it serves is [...] Living a lie takes alot of lying.

Outstanding. Dead on, but I think Europe is more of a poison/overdose society than throat-cutting. It would faint dead away at the sight of a blade.

@Bruce -
Yeah yeah thanks a lot also for using West-Germany as buffer between democracy and communism.

What would have been preferable - that we pulled back and used the lowlands & France instead? We weren't about to fight the Soviets. We'd had enough of your war, and wanted to de-militarize.

"The riots in France where a reason of dismissed Integration in the subburb ghettos of Paris."

And integration is accomplished by shouting "allahu akbar" while you torch a car? Interesting. We do it a little differently in America.

Well I'll have a visit in the USA in future. Hopefully i will not get arrested at the airport ...

Remember not to keep any explosives in your shoes and you should be fine. Enjoy your visit, and try to get in a little bit of Canada too.

[Bruce S.]

@FransisM:

"What did you learn about Cold War FranzisM ?"

There was a lil' mistake I have to say Sorry for. It was adressed to Brook Landers not to you FranzisM. I mixed up the Name on the top with the name on the bottom. Sorry

Sentenece must be What did you learn about Cold War BrookLanders?

But the Adress was right -> @Brook Landers.

@disillusioned_german:
Read the whole topic again. Pamela showed me a link from the BBC only thing was missing was a question mark but it was easily to guess/get from the context.

@Doug:
"And integration is accomplished by shouting "allahu akbar" while you torch a car?"

Now it's getting VERY interesting - For me and all blog readers. As I did in the past I looked in several forums,blogs and news but I found not the information I expected. But I found the french reporter video on which very clearly "allahu akbar" several times was shouted by the group of young men. And I found a very ashaming facist website
http://www.allahu-akbar.de hosted by a German muslim.

And this whole fact becomes a turning point ( in case of the french riot reporting in Germany ) that it simply wasn't mentioned but in spiegel in a small article - not available anymore for free (http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/0,1518,383443,00.html).
The roots for the riots layed in the dismissed integration but the hole thing was a religous riot. Or some people abused it as this. Only french witnesses can tell us if "allahu akbar" was the battle call only in the video or in the whole country.
In this case, if it was a riot battle call - well then you can easily speak of a disinformation by the press to the German citizens.
CAUSE I HEARD ABOUT IT THE FIRST TIME!
So are any French here who can help us to solve this question?

(Sorry for my very bad English at the moment I could not exert so much cause it's very late here and I am writing with an opene and a closed eye.)

[Doug]

@Bruce - There are some excellent French bloggers that have covered the riots in English, but I think the best is at No-Pasaran. Don't try to read every article, they post VERY heavily there and you'll never get through two weeks' worth, but their riot coverage was certainly thorough and they're generally pretty fair.

Also good, although posting much less heavily, is E-Nough. They post about as much in 1 1/2 weeks as No Pasaran does in a day. E-nough is generally critical of France, but usually fair.

Pave France covered it a bit as well, although they're not French. Pave is also generally critical of France, however there's little attempt at fairness there. It's purpose is to bash France while trying not to be grossly unfair.

Pravda would be proud of French media coverage of the riots. When Rioters were clearly chanting "Sarkozy, dirty jew!", Canal+ put up a caption that read "Sarkozy, fascist". Synagogues were burned, but the Jewish community was asked not to make a fuss about being attacked by rampaging hordes of muslim youths. A ranking media executive admitted that coverage of the riots was toned-down because he was afraid of French politics moving to the right as a result.

Here's a link to the "dirty jew" mob, including a link to video. The audio is pretty clear. You'll find lots more at the blogs above, including a French newspaper turning off reader comments when the comments went overwhelmingly against the rioters, and the French government taking over internet routing and shutting down blogs. No, not the Islamist blogs that were inciting and organizing the rioting "youths", but French blogs that were critical of the Islamists. I hope you're not jealous that Germans aren't the only ones that France can't surrender to fast enough.

[dy]

@Bruce:

Just to humour you, I Googled the Japanese version of "Christan Bomb" and came up with zero hits. Even as separate words, I could find no references to this being used to describe any bomb. I also checked the Japanese Wikipedia entry for the "A-Bomb" (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8E%9F%E7%88%86), which had no references to this term.

As George M pointed out, all the links you've sent are from non-Japanese who have their own little message that they want to present. I wasn't going to mention it at first, but the original article you linked (http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/20/20564/1.html) is a perfect example of how the media take some facts out of context, add in some "opinions" and some outright lies, to come up with their anti-American "news" stories. The fact that a lot of people involved with the a-bomb were Christian, or that they prayed, is not surprising (since that was, and is, American demography). To say that Christianity is to blame for the bomb is beyond absurd, unless you also want to credit Christianity from stopping Nazi/Japanese/Soviet/etc. aggression. (As for the outright lies, Nagasaki was not a city of poor, Christian workers ["Die Atombombe traf nun 1945 einen Stadtteil Nagasakis, in dem hauptsächlich arme Arbeiter, besonders Christen, lebten."], but was in fact a major shipbuilding center with a big Naval presence [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasaki], and whose Christian population was only a minority.)

[Tom Penn]

Bruce S., the emperor has no clothes. You choose to see only what you want to see. Both your eyes are clenched shut.

[Brock Landers]

@ Bruce S.

>>Sentenece must be What did you learn about Cold War BrookLanders?

I learned far more about it than you did about spelling my nick, obviously.

Or about WWII, if you write things of this sort:

>> The reculture was possible cause Dönitz Jodl called all German soldiers to capitulate absolutly. Otherwise there wasn't Germany on the map today. But the trimmed minds of the Germans at that time had fought until the last man had died. You freed France but Germany freed itsself cause higher Generals with humanity ,like Graf von Staufenberg who paid with his life for his try to kill Hitler, saw how senseless this war was.>>

You forgot to mention that the German soldies were told to capitulate _only after Hitler had killed himself_.

But I guess that's not important.

>>You freed France but Germany freed itsself >>

Come on. Von Staufenberg failed. What about the countless other generals who fought _for_ Hitler until the very end? Why did they do nothing while Hitler was alive, even during the very last days when it was clearly hopeless?

Germany freed herself? When? When it surrendered _after Hitler killed himself_, and he did it only because of the proximity of the Red Army? You call the surrender under Dönitz "freed herself"?

I agree with Tom Penn.

[Pamela]

Germany 'freed' herself?

Good lord, that's the most euphimistic terminology for 'defeat' I've ever read.

At first, Bruce, I thought you might be worth the effort.

You are now on my 'scroll by' map.

Wiedersehn.