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The Europhiles try to deflect the charge of their heat wave system failure by pointing to Chicago's deadly heat wave where many elderly lost their lives in similar fashion. It's somewhat dishonest because the EU had the benefit of the lesson of Chicago and simply didn't pay attention. What would interest me is what are the preparations made today for heat deaths in France, Germany, et al. If a similar heat wave were to strike again in August 2006, how has the system adjusted and improved? Are an appreciably larger number of public buildings air conditioned in Paris and available for service as cooling centers today? In Chicago they are.

David, I just renewed my insurance policy. It specifically excludes coverage on acts of war and insurrection. I'm sure it's the same standard language on both sides of the Atlantic. My question is this: When does a riot become an insurrection? I couldn't tell you. But do you think the folks at Allianz could? I'd like to be a fly on the wall during one of their meetings.

Just to note in regards to the situation in France 8 nights (now 9 I would bet) is a full blown insurection.

The socailist governmental orgs that run Germany would be even less able to respond to a Katrina sized natural disaster than the rarely bungling FEMA. The fact FEMA and the State of La screwed this up so badly is a rare occurance. Usually they are more than up to the task.

You're dealing with socialists. What does logic have to do with anything?

The reason why the German press is showing such uncustomary restraint is because what's happening right in Paris and Marseille could just as well be happening in Hamberg and Berlin. Germany is desparately hoping to stay below the radar.

David, shouldn't you be worried about the American media first? If a country calls itself the leader of the free world, but has foxnews and CNN, I'd worry about that more than a European country, which you obviously don't like anyway. That said, you're certainly right about the Stern-Spiegel-bias.

Also jetzt zu argumentieren, die deutsche Presse berichte kaum über die Unruhen in Frankreich weil wir selbiges hier zu befürchten hätten, halte ich für reichlich abstrus.
In einem Land in welchem beinahe täglich in irgendwelchen Städten rechte und linke Gewalttäter aufeinanderprallen, allwöchentlich tausende Polizisten die Fussballarenen gegenüber Hooligans absichern und entsprechend oft mit ihnen aneinandergeraten - da kann niemand erwarten dass wir einem solchen Aufruhr kopflos gegenüberständen.

Ein feines Beispiel haben die Dynamo Dresden Fans vor einigen Wochen abgeliefert: Unterwegs zu einem Pokalspiel gegen 1860 München sind sie auf dem gesamten Rückweg durch Bayern von einer Autobahn-Raststätte zur nächsten um zu plündern und zu zerstören. Mit so einer Aktion kann zunächst niemand rechnen, sowas gabs noch nie. Und wie wurde reagiert? Innerhalb kürzester Zeit hat die Polizei sämtliche weitere nördlichen Autobahnausfahrten der A93 in Bayern abgeriegelt und die Krawallmacher einen für den anderen noch auf der Autobahn in Gewahrsam genommen. Darüber hinaus wurden organisatorische Vorkehrungen getroffen, dass bei ähnlichen Fanströmen aus dem Osten eine solche Spur der Verwüstung in Zukunft nicht mehr möglich sein wird.

Insofern kann man sich bei uns mit Fug und Recht sicher sein, dass unsere Sicherheitsbehörden mit einem solchen Gesindel zügig fertig würden.

@Zyme

>>"Insofern kann man sich bei uns mit Fug und Recht sicher sein, dass unsere Sicherheitsbehörden mit einem solchen Gesindel zügig fertig würden."

"Gesindel," Zyme? Ich muss schon bitten! Es sind Europas unterdrückte Kinder! Nimm mir diese Bestie sofort ab in die re-education camps!

Ich glaube also gerne, das mann vorlaüfig zügig fertig wird mit den "unterdrückten Kinder," auf jedenfalls in Bayern. Meinen Sie aber, das das noch gelten wird in 50 Jahren, als die "unterdrückten Kinder" in Deutschland eine Mehrheit bilden, und die Regierung an sich nehmen? "Fug und Recht" werden wohl dann etwas anders verstanden, oder?

@Zyme

1. Es war ein Bundesligaspiel
2. Die Fans hatten schon im Stadion randaliert und dort andere Besucher mit Urin aus Bierbechern begossen bzw. beworfen. Die Polizei konnte bei den ca. 20.000 Fans mit einigen Hundertschaften nichts machen.
3. Rund 3000 Fans haben an der Tankstelle bei Regensburg randaliert, Feuerwerkskörper gezündet, das Personal bedroht usw.
4. Machen Sie nicht so, als wäre jede Raststätte abegriegelt wurden - die Polizei hätte wohl kaum an jeder Raststätte genügend Leute für 3000 Hooligans gehabt.
5. Die Spur solcher Verwüstung durch DD-Hooligans setzt sich leider doch fort: http://tinyurl.com/d59ex
6. Unterlassen Sie es die Fans aus dem Osten mit den Chaoten aus Dresden in einen Topf zu werfen!


P.S. Bewerben Sie sich beim Spiegel - dort können Sie Ihr Talent im Verdrehen von Fakten ganz gut anwenden.

Some of you seem to forget, Germany is an ally of the french, therefore they will not be critical.

This is much different than the German view of the US, who they do not consider an ally.

@ S1IG und Helian

Jetzt haltet erst mal die Füße still und kommt runter von eurem hohem Ross - im Einzelnen:

a) Es war weder ein Pokal- noch ein Bundesliaspiel, sondern ein Zweitligaspiel. Wobei das auch irrelevant ist.

b) Werfe ich hier absolut niemanden in einen Topf. Nur weil ich zu Recht die Gewaltbereitschaft anti-bayerischer Fanströme aus Ostdeutschland anspreche, kann mir niemand den Vorwurf der Verallgemeinerung machen. Genau diese Gewaltbereitschaft hat sich in dem konkreten Fall verwirklicht!

c) Dass im einzelnen nicht alles glatt ging kann bei der "Premiere" eines solchen überfallartigen Raubzugs niemand erwarten. Die organisationstechnischen Schlüsse, welche im Nachhinein jedoch begrüßenswerterweise gezogen wurde, rechtfertigen die Darstellung der polizeilichen Arbeit in einem durchaus positiven Lichte.

d) Wird nicht einleuchtend erläutert, wieso man Gesindel heute als "Europas unterdrückte Kinder" einordnen soll. Der traditionsgeprägte Ausdruck vermag sehr gut zu beschreiben, worum es sich bei dieser Bande handelt.
Wer seiner Unzufriedenheit nicht anders als durch Gewaltaktivitäten Ausdruck verleihen kann, zeigt exakt dadurch, wieso er/sie keine Arbeit findet! Wir leben hier doch nicht in einem Barbarenreich, wo jeder Frustrierte seine Probleme durch Aggressionsexzesse ausleben kann. Für ein solches Vorgehen kann und darf es keine Rechtfertigung geben - schwedische Gardinen beinhalten genau die richtige Verwahrung für solch gesellschaftsgefährdende Elemente.

ahhh, so republiker understands the US media, does he/she?

How many people in the US and how many people watch Fox News?

Doofus.

What are you talking about?

Tagesschau online: France N°1 headline
Heute online: France N°1 headline
Spiegel online: France N°1 headline
SZ online: France N°1 headline

And please, of course people die in heatwaves. The problem was that in France the ratio was much higher than in other European countries. People in usually cooler Europeanb countries will always be more affected by extreme heatwave since they are not used to them, private houses and even many offices have no air condition. France seems to have been more affected due to its holiday system (everyone goes on holidays the same time, leaving hospitals and institutions that care for the elderly understaffed).

The riots in France are very concerning. I don't see them happening the same way in Germany. We don't have those kind of vast banlieue ghettos which have become a no go area.

Katrina was a lot more dramatic, hence the extensive coverage. It doesn't happen that often that a whole city has to be given up, at least temporarily. But to claim that France doesn't receive adequate coverage is nonsense.

It's interesting btw that Sarkozy, the darling of the right, has not been very successful with his "law and order" attitude and often dehumanizing language.

@Zyme
Mal ganz langsam
a. Es war ein Spiel der Bundeliga - der 2. Bundesliga == Bundesligaspiel != Pokalspiel
b. Lesen Sie Ihr Posting!
c. Lach! Das sah in Ihrem Posting vorher noch anders aus.

Ihr Beispiel ist einfach unkorrekt (f. Ihre Argumentation passend gemacht == Spiegel-like) und Sie tun so, als hätte die Polizei alles im Griff. Alles bis zum BL-Spiele DD vs. 1860 - obwohl die Anzeichen schon seit Jahren da sind! Dort war man in einigen Fällen einfach machtlos - so wie scheinbar die franz. Polizei dieser Tage.

Wäre solche Randale in den USA passsiert, hätte sich die deutschen Medienelite schon lange darüber beschwert: Bush ist nicht vor Ort, Bush kümmert sich nicht um die Jugendlichen usw.

Deutschland sits under the same Damoclean sword that currently is cleaving France. What destroys Paris today will destroy Berlin und Hamburg in the near future. The latency period will not be long. Enjoy the respite.

@legion: I don't know about "destroy" but it is certainly cause for concern. Germany also has its share of unassimilated minorities, but the mix and temperament is IMHO different than in France. I don't see the ethnic here Turks resorting to such measures, whether they be Muslim or not.
@Zyme, S1IG, Helian: I consider the police force in Germany to be for the most part professional and competent, but certainly not super-human as Zyme seems to believe. Moreover, they are -- and should be -- constrained by the laws appropriate to a Western democracy, which rightfully prohibit some of the excesses that could make it "even more effective." There is a historical and good reason that police forces are organised at the Länder level in Germany and not at the Federal level. To speculate how German police would handle an insurrection like the one taking place in France at present would be exactly that -- speculation.
@querdenker: Your quoting of "number one headlines" whilst perhaps accurate, misses the point. The coverage is, as already mentioned by other posters, raTHer matter-of-fact and widely avoids the arrogance and Schadenfreude exhibited when reporting about events in the USA. My subjective -- and I mean very subjective -- view is that the German media would like to pay much more attention to Chavez, Maradonna, and Co. and the anti-Bush demonstrations in Argentina as opposed to critical analysis of events in France.

@ Querdenker:
In the case of Katrina, the German news coverage emphasized that better official planning and reaction could have saved lives. I don't see why this criticism doesn't apply to a heatwave as well. If the French government had prepared/responded better, wouldn't fewer old people have died, alone, in their apartments, while the rich switched on their air conditioners and the bureaucrats headed off for their vacations? And similarly, if these riots were taking place in the US, don't you think we'd be hearing a lot more bluster and outrage from Germans about the gross inequalities of US society? But since France is the subject, we can be sure that the coverage will be balanced and measured.

German media treat negative news from the US as proof of the essential rottenness of the US political system. I don't see that kind of slant being given to either the heatwave or the riots.

@scout: I agree. But the violence at and after the mentioned soccer-match was a big suprise for the people and the police. The police had only a few 100 officers there and was not able to get all the situations under control. The super-human-cops had a day off?

Matt said, "...since France is the subject, we can be sure that the coverage will be balanced and measured."

Is that the same kind of balanced and measured as CBS and CNN? ;) If so, they actually shouldn't be reporting it at all. They should be focusing on, well, ... almost _anything_ else as long as it makes Bush look bad.

>>"It's interesting btw that Sarkozy, the darling of the right, has not been very successful with his "law and order" attitude and often dehumanizing language."

You're quite right, Querdenker. Thiers was much more effective with his "law and order" attitude and dehumanizing language, but, of course, he was somewhat more thorough in his approach.


Mir lag es fern, der deutschen Polizei "Übermenschlichkeit" zu unterstellen, wie hier mitunter suggeriert wird.

Allein die höheren Ansprüche, denen sie im Vergleich zur französischen genügt, wollte ich betonen.
Dass dafür keine Übermenschlichkeit nötig ist, liegt geradezu auf der Hand :)

"Moreover, they are -- and should be -- constrained by the laws appropriate to a Western democracy, which rightfully prohibit some of the excesses that could make it "even more effective." "

Na wie gut, dass nach der deutschen Verwaltungsaktslehre der einzelne Verwaltungsakt (und damit auch jedes polizeiliche Handeln mit Außenwirkung und Regelungscharakter im Einzelfall) wirksam bleibt, auch wenn er rechtswidrig war. Aber halt - der Adressat hat, wenn sich der Verwaltungsakt bereits erledigt hat, noch die Möglichkeit der Fortsetzungsfeststellungsklage! Damit ist der Rechtsstaat gerettet! :D

Das ist doch mal wahre Effektivität.

Zyme,

well, I am not so sure about that - the german police force is not what it used to be. ever seen them deal with african drug dealers like a bunch of losers (arrest, interrogate, set free again) ? i guess it's more due to the law abiding nature of the german people that the country seems all so quite and peaceful.

i have seen Giuliani clean up NYC. Now that's what I call policework !!! i don't think either the french or the german police would be capable of that.

your legal knowledge is quite impressive. however:
a) the german police is still bound by the german law and not allowed to violate it - which (given the poor state of the german police law) is exactly why they act like losers so often.
b)if they violate it, they will be subjected to court claims (both public and private, which to a german "beamter" is still a nightmare
c)the legal framework of "rechtswidrig aber wirksam" (which you like to call efficient)is exactly the same in both france and the us.
btw: a hint for your upcoming bar exam: in a severe rodney king style riot, there may not be any "verwaltungsakt" as there (even according to the bavarian courts) is no "regelung" in bashing a bunch of lunatics with a police stick. in that case a "feststellungsklage" would be the appropriate remedy.

@Querdenker

>>"What are you talking about?
Tagesschau online: France N°1 headline
Heute online: France N°1 headline
Spiegel online: France N°1 headline
SZ online: France N°1 headline"

Golly, you're right, Querdenker, and after only nine days of riots, too! Tagesschau, SPON, et. al., almost succeeded in spreading the word as expeditiously as the lightning fast deutsche Post of the 18th century!

@ Toby

Zuerst ein kurzes Wort zu den rechtlichen Punkten: Mit der Feststellungsklage erreicht man die Festellung vertraglicher (!) Rechte und Pflichten - also inwieweit ein zweiseitiges (!) Rechtsverhältnis zwischen Staat und Bürger besteht. Verwaltungsakte sind hingegen einseitige Akte durch die Staatsgewalt, weswegen Feststellungsklagen dagegen nicht statthaft sind.

Dass die Literatur über den Verwaltungsaktscharakter einer Polizeihandlung wie einem Schlag mit dem Schlagstock streitet (Verwaltungsakt auf Duldung der polizeilichen Handlung - ja oder nein), ist mir wohl bewusst. Ich glaube mich dagegen zu erinnern, dass dies von den Gerichten immer noch anerkannt ist.

Zurück zu den Krawallen: Natürlich ist die Polizei grundsätzlich an Recht und Gesetz gebunden. Ich wollte mit meinen Ausführungen lediglich zum Ausdruck bringen, dass unter Bedingungen wie Gefahr im Verzuge auch flexiblere Regeln gelten. Soweit diese auch in Frankreich zum Einsatz kommen, stimmt einen das im Hinblick auf deren Polizei und ihrer Effektivität natürlich nachdenklich. Dennoch kann man auch aus weiteren Gründen Deutschland mit Frankreich nicht vergleichen:

Würde es hier trotz der von mir erwarteten Kompetenz deutscher Sicherheitsbehörden zu den in Frankreich aktuellen Zuständen kommen, wäre die instinktive Reaktion der Politik (zumal in einer großen Koalition) und auch der Bevölkerung eine völlig andere. Einen Richtungsstreit zwischen versöhnlichem Gespräch mit den Randalierern und der harten Hand gäbe es nicht - stattdessen könnte man der Union gute Chancen einräumen, sich bei der SPD nun mit ihrer Forderung nach einem Bundeswehreinsatz im Innern durchzusetzen. Dabei würde man ebenfalls auf die breite Unterstützung des Volkes bauen können, welches ein bekanntermaßen hohes Sicherheitsbedüfnis an den Tag legt. Dass dies eine Remilitarisierung der Gesellschaft mit sich bringt, liegt auf der Hand.

Inwieweit militarisierte Gesellschaften in Deutschland mit Aufständischen klarkommen, sollten die letzten Jahrhunderte eindrucksvoll belegt haben - weswegen frustrierte Gruppen in unsrem Lande in ihrem eigenen Interesse von solchen Aktionen absehen sollten.

@Zyme: I agree that the traditional view of German society includes a raTHer over-proportional need for security, but I cannot share your opinion that a military action to stop civil disturbance would be supported by a broad majority of the population. Germany today is in many respects different than in the past; years of indoctrination with left-leaning propaganda (as so effectively pointed out by this blog) have not been without effect. The criminals and perpetrators become the 'victims' and society's will to combat them becomes weaker and weaker. The "frustrated ones" you refer to are, sadly, more numerous than you might think, although I believe the mix and chemistry in Germany is different than in France, and I don't believe the unassimilated groups would cause such problems here. In my mind, it's not because of the kind of "deterrence" you describe...

Zyme,

well, i remember the "chaostage" in hanover, which went on for decades with politicians discussing for years what to do about it, until someone finally decided to put an end to it.

what about berlin, kreuzberg where arsonists burn cars every year on may 1st, just for the fun of it ? what about those years in hamburg, hafenstr. where the police basically decuded to give in to looters and arsonists for the sake of some stupid non-aggressive strategy. what about the "startbahn-west" riots in the 80s where policemen were actually shot ?

i don't recall the police force as very effective during those incidents. nor the german public as "remilitarised". my understanding is that they sometimes even sympathized with "demonstrators" such as "globalization critics" or "anti-castor" activists. the reaction of the german msm to what's happening in Argentina right now is very telling. (david, ray: fancy a piece on the SpOns reports on Hugo Chavez ?)

but, Zyme, if it's comforting to you, keep dreaming about the safe german streets of 1935.

finally, and without any intention to lecture you:

" Dass die Literatur über den Verwaltungsaktscharakter einer Polizeihandlung wie einem Schlag mit dem Schlagstock streitet (Verwaltungsakt auf Duldung der polizeilichen Handlung - ja oder nein), ist mir wohl bewusst. Ich glaube mich dagegen zu erinnern, dass dies von den Gerichten immer noch anerkannt ist."

you may want to read up on BayVGHE 34, 63 (66). it's your law, not mine.


@ Sandy P:

Yes, I understand the American media. Foxnews is strongly in favor of the present administration and adjust their news coverage to make them look better, including where failures need to be covered up.

Since Foxnews is more influential, they are worse than how Spiegel reports on the US.

Doofus yourself. Get some manners.

@Leserin. "The reason why the German press is showing such uncustomary restraint is because what's happening right in Paris and Marseille could just as well be happening in Hamberg and Berlin. Germany is desparately hoping to stay below the radar."

I think this nails it. However, they are also loathe to criticize fellow socialists. Can one imagine an "earnest" inquiry in the German media alla their US Katrina coverage about the the "inequalities" in French society that caused such rioting? However, it will be interesting to see what they DO say on the subject: not enough appeasement?

@republikaner: In your reply to Sandy P I think you oversimplify the situation somewhat. Perhaps it only seems to you as though they are "administration-friendly" since most of the other MSM are clearly administration-hostile, and weave the Bush Derangement Syndrome into any story they possibly can.
Now, as far as making them "look better," I would be very interested in hearing about what you consider "failures" that have been "covered up." I don't want to be judgemental, but that sounds to me like some sort of DU/Kos alleged conspiracy drivel. I for one think there _have_ in fact been some failures or setbacks in this administration (e.g. protecting our borders, cracking down on illegal immigration, stopping the 9th Circus, reforming social security, protection of marriage amendment, the recent SCOTUS nominee debacle) but I don't see where or how these have been covered up, and the Blogosphere certainly isn't letting anyone forget.
And OBTW, since this is a Blog about German news media, why should Ray and David be worried about Fox news in the first place? I can't find them on my TV programme here in Germany.

republikaner

What channel do you watch FoxNews on?

@ Toby

Hmm wenn das Volk eine Militarisierung ihrer Sicherheitsbehörden nicht mittragen möchte, dann frage ich mich wie solche Umfrageergebnisse zustande kommen:

http://www.n24.de/politik/wahl-2005/index.php/a2005072908505323855

Sie stammt noch aus dem Juli diesen Jahres - bei der es in Nachbarländern noch zu keinem Scheitern der Integration von islamischen "Mitbürgern" gekommen war.

Sollte es hier einmal zu ähnlichen Zuständen wie jetzt in Frankreich kommen und die Polizei nicht zu Rande kommen, dann braucht es nicht viel Phantasie um sich auszumalen, in welche Richtung sich diese Zustimmungsraten dann ändern.

@Zyme: I checked your link... it was at least interesting. But please do remember that the results of a poll are determined by how you ask the question. You can make a poll give you any result you want by shaping the question appropriately. In this case, the question was rather "harmless" and only mentioned domestic Bundeswehr missions to "defend against terrorism." Do that same poll again but be specific about armed soldiers doing police-like duties and possibly killing someone, and I will bet you Dollars to Doughnuts that the response would be very much different. That's why polls are so worthless, and politicians that base government policy on opinion polls even more worthless.

@ Zyme

ok. so what ?

@ Scout: point taken (about this being a German media blog).

As for the government-friendliness of Fox, they never stop amazing me by how they take out the controversy of anything that might be harmful to the administration, and that others would pounce on.

Today, on the Fox website, Bush is "steadfast" on the free trade zone, while other major news websites--I mean the American ones--are talking of yet another failure for him. Look at what Spiegel is making of it - that's really not nice.

Of course it all depends on what you believe the truth is, but the fact remains that he didn't get what he wanted, and there's different ways of reprsenting that.

Anway, thank you for a civilized comment.

I get Fox through my neighbor's satellite, who has it pointing in an unusual direction (not Astra).

@republikaner: You're certainly right about the "others" pouncing on anything that might be harmful to the administration. No arguments there! If Fox sometimes goes a little too far in the other direction, you have to consider in light of the overall MSM picture in the US. Perhaps I can best illustrate it with the classic "decision tree" -- it works like this for the normal MSM (CNN, CBS, NY/LA Times, etc.):

Something happened.
A. Can it be presented in such a manner as to do damage to Bush, regardless of how obscure or fantastic the connection might be?
-- if YES, then run it on the front page, forever, until the next such event can replace it.
-- if NO, proceed to B.
B. Is the administration talking about it positively? Is it already in the public forum?
-- if YES, then proceed to C
-- if NO, then Forget About It
C. Can it simply be ignored?
-- if YES, then Forget About It
-- if NO, give it a column inch or two on page C16 right after the Chess and Bridge sections, before the automobile ads.

See? And I didn't even go to journalism school! ;)

@ Sandy P:

Yes, I understand the American media. Foxnews is strongly in favor of the present administration and adjust their news coverage to make them look better, including where failures need to be covered up.

Since Foxnews is more influential, they are worse than how Spiegel reports on the US.

Doofus yourself. Get some manners.

----


You didn't answer my question which would negate your answer.

Doofus.

How many people in the US and how many watch FoxNews?

How many watch the big free 3?

FoxNews is the vampire and you're trying to ward it off w/garlic.

Won't work, you don't understand US media.


Back to the subject; if the riots happened in the US, we would be well beyond ZDF Spezial, Monitor, Panorama etc etc etc, dedicated exclusively to the riots. By now, German (and EU) politicians, with an outwardly concerned mimic (and inwardly satisfied smirk) would openly berate the inhuman US system, which invariably leaves behind the bodies of the weak in its relentless march towards profit.

They would rush to counsel the US Administration as to how to learn from the EU model and assimilate recalcitrant groups. The fringe elements of the left would push for some form of UN condemnation of the US in its handling of disadvantaged and less-fortunate people.

The script is already written and well rehearsed, it just waits for the right events in order to be applied. And the events have come. The problem is that life beats movies (and scripts). The "savage" US system, by far not perfect, has proven to be infinitely more accommodating of all sorts of minorities. The "cruel" US society in general is far more accepting of all the different minorities than its "sophisticated" EU counterpart. If anyone should give advice on assimilating other cultures, it would be alone the USA.

So, events follow the script almost perfectly, with one tiny glitch. The roles have been inversed. The (US) villain is actually good and the (EU) noble and educated character is hollow and superficial. Fortunately, when real life doesn't play along we have the media to construct a virtual reality where everything is as it should.

Just watched the ZDF Spezial. Very matter-of-fact, no harsh judgements about French society or the response to the violence. It seemed to me the entire purpose was to reassure the German populace... an alleged expert on immigration explained why in his view this couldn't possibly happen in Germany, and also why this is no Huntington "Clash of Civilisations" but rather a socio-economical problem that just coincidentally has some religious connection. He couldn't resist mentioning the problem with illegal immigration in the US, as if that has an effect on the price of fish.
Moderator and experts appeared to be supportive of the "more appeasement" option. Cowards.

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