Worse Than Guantanamo?

Must be in the U.S....

Or not.

Cells at France's Palais de Justice condemned as 'squalid and inhumane dungeons'

The European Council's commissioner for human rights has described conditions in the prison in France's most august court building as the worst he has seen. ...

Alvaro Gil-Robles said the cells in the historic Palais de Justice in Paris were squalid and inhumane.

Describing them as "dungeons", he said: "It is incredible that people are imprisoned in such conditions, without ventilation and without natural light. I have never seen a worse prison." Mr Gil-Robles, 60, an academic lawyer and Spain's former national ombudsman, spent 16 days in France last month inspecting prisons, detention centres and mental hospitals.

The palais is situated on the beautiful L'île de la Cité, a few hundred yards from Notre Dame cathedral. But in its "dépôt", human rights organisations have uncovered evidence of prisoners, mainly illegal immigrants, going without food, drink and lavatory paper as they huddle together for warmth. There have been numerous violent attacks and cases of detainees mutilating themselves and smearing their blood on the walls.

Compared to the Palais de Justice in Paris, Guantanamo looks like ClubMed. I guess the German media will be furious about this blatant French disregard of human rights, as they are in the case of Guantanamo... This will be a media firestorm!

Or not.

Comments

[Pamela]

>> blatant French disregard of human rights

Oh please. I offer for your consideration the love story of Isabelle Coutant-Peyre and Ilich Ramirez Sanchez aka 'Carlos the Jackal'.

And I quote
---------
Coutant-Peyre says that it was "an honour I couldn't refuse". In her book, she describes in breathless terms her first meeting with Carlos in Le Sante prison in Paris. It was, she writes, a coup de foudre — a bolt of lightning. "He took my hand and kissed it in the most courteous way. At that moment a wave of recognition passed between us."

-----------------

The French. Such lovers.
*snort*

Here's the whole thing. Enjoy
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/24/1079939711526.html?from=storyrhs

[joe]

Gee Pamela,

I was going to use the same opening... I shall anyway.

Oh, Please!

This is the french. They have a standard shared by all of the euro's. This has to be some awful mistake.

This is just a CIA plot. I am sure SPON will report it as such.

I look forward to hearing from the German M$M how prisons in the US make this one in paris really look like a 5 star hotel.

[Vic]

You might be interested in this account by an American held at the Gitmo "Club Med":

"Violent episodes were increasing. In one incident a guard had to be hauled off a handcuffed detainee whom he was beating on the head with a handheld radio. By the time I arrived the detainee had been taken to the hospital, but his blood was fresh on the ground and what appeared to be large pieces of flesh were soaking in it."

Read the whole chilling account:

Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1817081,00.html

[SeanM]

@Pamela,

I had hoped to to be swayed by the passion of the piece but found it instead reeking of decadence, which I assume was your intention.

To select one of the lessor of the many abrasive references from the article:

"Coutant-Peyre is in the middle of a controversy, defending a group of Breton separatists who allegedly bombed a McDonald's restaurant, killing a woman."

I'm left wondering if the dead women left behind ophaned children? If the "group of Breton separatists" she is defending don't succeed then the poor woman's death can be chalked up to "acts committed to avoid something worse happening". I am too simple to comprehend what they might be.

"Carlos is still married to his Palestinian second wife, Lana Jarrar — though she has disappeared and cannot be traced."

When we are dealing with somebody like Carlos, this hardly raises an eyebrow - neither that he marries her while still married to another, nor that the former has "disappeared". I am reminded of our old friend from the UN Oil-for-Food scandal, Savan, who claimed that the money found in his bank account came from an old aunt. She was subsequently found at the bottom of an elevator shaft in her native country of Cyprus.

Carlos. hummmph.

[SeanM]

@Vic,

I read your link and it didn't affect me as it apparently affected you. I never like reading stories about what happens to detainees in any prison, even in Germany. But these guys were caught on the battlefield and in many cases in the act or shortly after committing the most heinous of crimes. The incident you cite is from James Yee, a muslim chaplain, who was very unhappy with what he found happening to muslim prisoners at Gitmo. Here are several more accounts from him:

"I witnessed my first IRFing after a military policeman had performed the “credit card swipe” — pressing his fingers inside a detainee’s buttock crack to look for a weapon. This type of physical contact is not acceptable under Islamic law and the detainee had pushed the guard away. But prisoners were not allowed to touch an MP and immediately eight guards were summoned."

So according to Yee, muslims cannot be searched in prison. That would give them a huge advantage over the guards if they were planning something violent, wouldn't it. It's not like these guys are violent or anything. While he's concerned with what muslims find offensive, I would like to remind him of what I find offensive, and what my culture and religion forbids: killing of innocent civilians, having our kids go off to work and forced to jump.

"Microsoft was instructed to store Ahmad’s e-mails and records of his internet activity without his knowledge. “You are requested to not disclose the existence of this request to the subscriber or any other person,” the letter to Microsoft stated. “Any such disclosure could subject you to criminal liability for obstruction of justice.”"

This is standard procedure in any investigation. It would happen to me here in Germany without any mention in the press if I were suspected of involvement in terrorism, or any crime. Why does he see reason to even mention it? I came away with the feeling that he was an advocate for the prisoners, rather than a chaplain.

For a more complete account of some of the same incidents you could read this. An excerpt:

"The prisoners banged on their cells to protest the heat. They doused guards with whatever liquid was handy — from spit to urine. Sometimes they struck their jailers, one swinging a steel chair at a military police officer."

I await an equal airing of the guards' stories in the press. I may have to wait a long time, if ever, before those appear in the media. But I refuse to make my mind up or be horified by incidents you may cite until I know the full story, and I've heard enough to know most of the pertinent details are missing. And unlike the press, I do sympathize with the guards and what they have to endure there in Gitmo. It's no paradise, but I'll bet a helluva lot better than those caves in Afghanistan.

[Pamela]

Vic, I tried to follow your link, but got a 'page not found' error. So, my comment on your post is based solely on your post.

>>In one incident a guard had to be hauled off a handcuffed detainee whom he was beating on the head with a handheld radio

Vic. I have some experience with military people/life. If a guard at Gitmo wanted to beat the crap out of somebody, tools other than radios are at hand. Nice try at moral equivalence, but you really are too credulous.

I remain not chilled.

@SeanM
>>This type of physical contact is not acceptable under Islamic law

I know we'll both lose sleep over this one.

[SeanM]

@Pamela, "This type of physical contact is not acceptable under Islamic law

I know we'll both lose sleep over this one."

Yeah, right! Yee is offended that Muslims are not afforded special treatment in custody. He makes repeated mentions in the linked article to searches being against Islam:

"Knowing that physical contact between unrelated men and women is not allowed under Islamic law, female guards would be exceptionally inappropriate in how they patted down the prisoners or touched them on the way to the showers.."

"It didn’t matter that my religious beliefs prohibited me from being fully naked in front of strangers."

"Some of the translators — Muslim military personnel like me — told stories about female interrogators who would take off their clothes during the sessions. One would pretend to masturbate in front of detainees. She was also known to touch them in a sexual way and make them rub her breasts and genitalia."

This last incident is so reprehensible that upon reading it I was tempted to disguise myself as a muslim detainee so that I could investigate further. Unfortunately I can only get admitted to Gitmo if caught in the act of slaughtering women and children, and unlike the present detainees, I have standards.

"I was authorised to have unescorted access and to speak with detainees in privacy. But guards eavesdropped on my conversations, standing very close and attempting to intimidate me."

Sounds like they were as suspicious of him as I have become after reading his own account. Might have something to do with his studying Islam in Syria, that bastion of democratic transparency. But wait, here comes another reference to Syria:

"When Ahmad’s tour of duty came to an end, he left with great excitement, heading for Syria to be married. "

We would have to be paranoid to be concerned about Syria - they have withdrawn their peace mission from Lebanon without violence, sealed their border with Iraq and in general fullfil their UN obligations admirably. But still, there do seem to be enough uncomfortable links to Syria from Yee's account at Gitmo to leave me more than a little concerned. I hope the right people are continuing to watch him very carefully.

[jlwb]

Put this entire quote into your search tool, and you will get the full story:

"Some prisoners at the U.S. base in eastern Cuba have gone on the attack, as in April 2003 when a detainee got out of his cell during a search for contraband food and knocked out a guard's tooth with a punch to the mouth and bit him before he was subdued by MPs. One soldier delivered two blows to the inmate's head with a handheld radio, the documents show."

A detainee attacked the guards, hit one so hard his tooth was knocked out. The detainee bit! I'm sure there was a lot of blood. Mouth wounds bleed a lot! Sounds violent to me. A GI, in the middle of all of this bangs the guy with a radio. The soldier with the radio was busted down to Private.

I vote that no soldier can have a radio! They are so bad they may use it! Best they be left with only their guns, knives, and knowledge of how to kill with their bare hands in a 100 different ways!

One day, when you feel you are in danger, who will you run to? Who will you look to for protection? Will it be to the French or Germans? Or will it be to the US soldier who could have easily killed this jerk, but instead, used the radio in his hand....and lost much because of it!

[LC Mamapajamas]

Vic: "You might be interested in this account by an American held at the Gitmo "Club Med":"

Actually, I'm not in the least interested in what happens to those thugs.

This thread is about the rotten conditions in a FRENCH prison... you know, those people who have been oh so holier-than-thou the last couple of years.

Hypocrites!

[Doug]

I saw this movie (Count of Monte Cristo).