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Culture trators.

They are always seeking to make the culture of the backward, terrorists and murders equal to the culture of the truly civilized world. Being mostly LLL they can't and won't ever get it it seems. I can't say one country has it worse than any others, it's just some are totally without fear from being supported by state funds no matter what they do. Their self appointed judgeship over the rest of us mere mortals and our elected officals is now insufferable.

I believe in a free press but I also believe in the right of normal people to knock them on their asses when they are rude, overbearing and telling lies. After all they are not elected. What other restraint is on them to be honest, unbiased and truthful?

@anonymous coward who can't give a name.

If you can't figure that out, you must work in the news media.

Monitor is not the only source reporting about cases of torture flights, cases where terrorists arrested by the US were transferred to countries that are well-known for torturing prisoners, in order to gain more information.
I read the same allegations in several American and British newspapers, so I wonder what the general stance here is on that issue.
Do you believe that's just another unproven legend spun by the left?
Or do you concede that these stories might be true, but think interrogating terrorists in that way is justified?

Note from David: No, I don't think "interrogating terrorists in that way is justified". Neither do I think these stories are true. And no, I don't think you could come up with a Pentagon admission that these methods are employed. And yes, I believe this is "just another unproven legend spun by the left". And yes, I believe the Monitor author Georg Restle has an extreme left wing agenda as proven by his numerous anti-American and anti-Israel reports. Try Google if you don't believe me.

@CCTV Well, I suppose if they don't want to get tortured, they could just give up the goods.
If someone knows something and you want to get it out of them, and that person is committed to the death to his cause, how do you suggest that the interrogation be carried out? "Tell us!" "No." "Tell us!" "No." "Tell us" "No." "Tell us." "No."...... Well, maybe he'll get tired and let it slip out.

Since 2001 leftists in Germany have claimed that the war against Islamism should not be fought using military means. They claimed that were are not in a war. Instead, they considered 911 to be a mere criminal offence which should be adressed by the police and by the intelligence services.
So this is what the Americans did in Italy. Why are the leftists still complaining? It appears that they will oppose any action against terrorists. The mere fact that some of them are imprisoned (Gitmo) is too much for them.

After the London bombings, I caught a piece on Portuguese TV in which a reporter ended the piece questioning whether the notion that terrorism was caused by desperation, poverty and social exclusion was wrong.

Maybe there's still hope for them...

Oh. I've almost watched Monitor last time. I see I didn't miss anything extraordinary. ;)

Why do you rely - for "special interrogations" of suspected terrorists - on exactly the same regimes you officially accuse of bad human right records and want to be overthrown? If this isn't hypocrisy, what's the definition of hypocrisy about?

And even "non-leftist" media consider the renditions a problem (in German)

You are bashing the journalists instead of questioning the facts, discussing the real problem etc...

That's exactly why believing differs from knowledge. If you believe, you are not looking for the truth – isn’t it the main credo for medienkritik in general?

David is right: Monitor is some of the worst trash that the Looney Left in Germany has to offer, but at least it is funded by the taxpayers through the GEZ. They've brought all sorts of "special" reports to the public, one worse than the next... I still remember the one about how US military pilots were all drug addicts, with the help and support of the System, of course, to make them better killing machines on less sleep. All based on a 20-year old Pentagon memo describing the effects (but not the use) of "Go - No-Go" pills and of course, the omnipresent "anonymous sources." It was priceless.

Exactly, Neokomplott. There are lots of reports about extraordinary renditions, special interrogations etc., by the Economist, the NEw York Times, Washington Post... Are these all crazy leftists, trying to bash America and lying??

@Simon: You are joking aren't you? What you are saying is: "Those leftists, first they bashed us for bombing Iraq, and now they are bashing us for letting people disappear and for torturing them. Seems like whatever we do, they are bashing us." BS. If that's your understanding of police action, you should be moving to NOrth Korea or Cuba.

@David: What's anti-american about this report? I'd agree with you if you said that the fact that Monitor is picking out bad things about the policies of the US administration or the US in general is anti-american, and that Monitor was anti-american in the past. However, the content of this report is in no way anti-american. They are just reporting about the scandalous practics the US Administration is using. If you neglect that any of these things are in fact happening then you are so biased that it hurts.

Where's the good old mistrust of government especially of American conservatives gone? Is it these days more important to mistrust the media, which is just talking, writing and reporting, than to mistrust the government's actions? The media may even be wrong in some examples, but I'd prefer the media to be wrong one too many times than the government using any of these kinds of methods at any time. And this comment: "I don't think you could come up with a Pentagon admission that these methods are employed." must be a joke, too. Of course they don't come up with any admission, and exactly that's the reason the media HAS to report about it. After all, I don't recall any admission of the White House that Carl Rove was the leak, until the media (ALL media, not just your leftist looneys) kept on reporting about it.

It seems that for you, anything that's not admitted by the Administration or reported by Fox News is wrong and should not be reported about. Please correct me if my impression is wrong, and come up with some examples that prove otherwise

@David

No, I don't think "interrogating terrorists in that way is justified"

Sadly enough, this simple opinion cannot be taken for granted anymore. When you browse through conservative blogs, you find more and more people like "T" who think that only leftist sissys are against torture.

And yes, I believe this is "just another unproven legend spun by the left".

Then you should wake up and open your eyes. I suggest you check out what Andrew Sullivan has to say on the whole matter of Bush administration and torture. He is one of the few who cover this without the usual spin.
I would not at all be surprised if the Monitor story was true. In fact, I think it´s highly probable.

The best-researched article about the US program of "etraordinary rendition" was in the New Yorker:
"Outsourcing Torture":

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

But, hey, let's not let the facts get in the way of bashing the press for doing its job.

What is interesting about this debate is that no one is asking just how Egypt and Pakistan is getting information from the folks that they have captured in response to 7/7 in London? And further, did you know that MI5 (or MI6, I tend to get their intelligence ministries mixed up) is in attendance during these "interrogations"?

Ever think about that? Of course not!

Life is hunky-dory when evil Americans commit crimes (such as Abu Ghraib), but the din from the left grows deathly silent when Middle Eastern countries (in the service and in the presence of a European nation) "extracts" information from suspects.

Nothing like a shot of hypocricy to wake you up, huh?

The leftist, media, academics and such have 'idea' and 'criticism' about the war of terror. But the work, years, deaths, fighting, policing, investigation and everything is done by others. Naturally these are undermenchen to the pure, exalted latte sipping, body shaving, metrosexual chattering class. Sound and fury, but...

Like, as if anyone of us should or do care, and we don't. Today, the New York Times Company, a huge information/leftist media corporation reported continued profit and circulation decline. As have most all major American leftist printed and visual leftist mainstream media. As I have often told old fat, gray ponytail wearing infantile hippie men, 'It's not the '60s anymore."

The media is a incestuous echo chamber, old and increasingly an oddity like an decayed mansion with broken entrance gates from a classic horror film.

The islamo Fascist's will lose to the Hindus in India, to the Buddhist in Thailand, to the Christians in the Philippines and to the security services in the west. If you leftist think it's been a tad rough so far, wait until the white gloves come off. Don't be sad youleftist. You will, eventually, migrate to some other social pathology as you have historical done from Anarchism to Communism to Industrial fascism and now your new hero, Islamic Radicals, that inhabit your sick submissive dreams , dreams where you leftist lay naked and prostrate before yet a new aesthetic form, a exciting novelty with power and death.

@Tina: Of course one has to condemn when any country tortures suspects. And it is true that the left is sometimes too loud on the actions of the US while at the same time being too silent on the actions of Arab countries, China etc (like that Guantanamo-Gulag comparisopn by AI).

But still, I consider myself part of the Western civilazation (no matter if American and European), which can and should be proud of its respect for human rights, civil liberties, democracy, state of law... After all, that's what seperates us from the terrorists and from dictatorships around the world. And if an administration of a Western country leaves these accomplishments of our civilization aside, rates collective security higher than individual freedom and apparently considers those rights as redundant sometimes, it should be the duty of anyone who considers individual freedom as the core of our society to start thinking and stop supporting that administration blindly. I'm not asking you to support the Democrats, nor to start opponing the Iraq war or to condemn anything the Bush administration does. I'm just asking you to start_thinking.

Last time I checked, the US Bill of Rights read the following: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" Do you see anything like "except for suspected terrorists" or does it read "All Americans are created equal"?

Ooops..Please delete "..or to condemn anything the Bush adminstration does", fill in "or to condemn everything the Bush administation does". I guess that makes more sense. ;-)

@raphael
...uhh, that was actually the Declaration of Independence, not the Bill of Rights. But it's the thought that counts. And I agree that the Americans (and the West in general) is and should be held to a higher standard than the garden-variety tyranny established somewhere in the world. It does however annoy me that Americans are portrayed as Evil Incarnate by taxpayer-funded MSM in Germany, and wrong-doing elsewhere is conveniently ignored because it doesn't support the Higher Aim of making the Americans look as bad as possible so Germans can feel a little better about themselves. Then again, the US MSM does it as well. Must be something in the water that future reporters drink at journalism school.

...and while I'm at it, the D of I goes on to say, "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." Therein lies the crux of the problem. When some Islamoidiot blows himself up along with my family and decapitates several of my limbs, for example, then he is robbing me and mine of Creator-endowed rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. So I give the government authority to do the necessary to protect these rights. A great deal of jurisprudence deals with exactly how much authority the state has, and where gov't would wrongfully cross the line into individual freedoms (THAT"s where the Bill of Rights comes in).
Now, how to protect the citizenry whilst still guaranteeing personal freedoms and rights of accused is a problem for much more astute minds than mine. Some lean more in one direction, and others in the other direction. One thing is certain, however: This enemy has very little regard for my or anyone else's Creator-endowed rights.

The US Constitution does not apply to foriegn nationals - so strike them off any list of those who you think deserve any such protections Raphael

As for the "torture" of captured terrorists ( or suspected terrorists ) - nothing that I have heard about in ANY US run facility meets that level

As for what happens in an Egyptian jail if the US deposits an AQ thug to enjoy their hospitality - who knows

I find it more interesting to wonder why there was such silence about the way Arab jails are run for the past 10 years from all the same crowd who were focussed on every use of platic bullets in Israel and now find arab prisons to be such hellholes

@Scout: Sorry about that to all Americans, I'll have to do my homework better...BUt back to the topic: I just had the feeling that David and many commentators here are not adressing the mere fact that Monitor or anyone is reporting about that and does not report about good aspects of the American policy or about wrong-doing elsewhere, I rather got the impression that they critized WHAT they reported about, and that impression was affirmed by David writing that all that was "just another unproven legend spun by the left".

I'm just waiting for them to say something like: "Ok, these are really serious accusiations, I'm not sure whether they're right but I hope that the media will do anything it can to bring light to that". Instead, it's "just another unproven legend spun by the left"...life's so easy when you have the leftists...

@Poguemahone: "The US Constitution does not apply to foriegn nationals". So am I right in concluding that something like "Human Rights" does not exist in the US Constitution, merely "American Rights?"

@raphael

I agree with your first comment; however, I think we are both missing the real motivator behind all of this, which is power.

Does anyone really think that Sen. Dick Durban gives one whiffle of a butt bud about Abu Whatever at G'itmo? Of course he doesn't. What he is really interested in is power. He reasons that if he can destroy President Bush he can destroy Republican's hold on power, thereby increasing Democrat's power.

It's just that simple. It's the same garbage the Republicans pulled on Clinton with the Whitewater and Lewinsky garbage.

Do you really think Kennedy cares one iota about G'itmo detainees? Here's a man who was more concered with his political career than saving Mary Jo Kopekne in 3 1/2 feet of water. The same man who supported and seemingly still supports the IRA.

I am not arguing that torture is right, but even if the American left cannot be honest about their motives, we should be.

On to your second point. You assume I am not thinking. That is an absurd assumption on your part, based on one comment I have made on this issue.

Torture is not only wrong, it is a bad strategy. Torture generally illicits the answer the questioner wants not necessarily the truth. Strategically speaking, that is not reliable enough to warrant it, in my view.

Now, is making a man run around with ladie's underwear on his head torture? Mmm, no! Is piling up naked men on top of each other torture? Mmmm, no! Is making detainees physcially uncomfortable, such as temperature changes, lack of sleep and using food as a reward torture? No. As unseamly as this may seem to some, they do not rise to the level of torture. During an interrogation, it is standard procedure to throw the person off physically, psychologically and emotionally.

To give you and example, one detainee was being questioned at G'itmo and he wouldn't talk. The interrogator read Harry Potter to him until he responded in some way. Is that torture? No.

Now, is sicking German shepards on detainees and making contact torture? Yes. Is waterboarding torture? Yes. Is chaining a man to the floor until he urinates on himself? Yes. Is beating a man torture? Yes. Do I support any of these behaviors, even in the interest of getting information? No. There are more effective ways and we should use those.

In those cases where a crime has been committed, the offending person needs to be charged, get a fair hearing and then a decision. If found guilty, he or she should be punished.

Lastly, I support the Bush administration on this issue, because their thesis on the War against Islamofascists is the right one. The execution of it has been crap at times. However, between the two parties in the US, the Republicans get it and the Democrats don't. Some Dems get it (Lieberman springs to mind), but for the most part, they are oblivious to the problem and have no ideas on how to do it at all, let alone any better than the Bush administration.

Now, you may disagree with President Bush on his methods for handling terrorists, and that is a valid and welcomed debate. What is not valid is to say that appeasement or the ostrich head-in-the-sand act (as we did from Beruit (sp?) to 9-11 worked as a strategy against terrorism. If that is your response to what I have written here, I will merely ignore it. There is too much evidence that it not only did't work, it was suicidal.

Finally, that quote is from the Constitution, not from the Bill of Rights. And, unless I am mistaken, the US Constitution was written to apply to America and Americans. I am fully in agreement that all men are created equal under whatever diety you worship; however, I will not allow Joe Terrorist to use my founding document to kill me or my family.

Sorry, but your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

Sorry about the length of my post, David and Ray.

Monitor also reported there is an investigation going on in Italy. Italian prosecuters suspect CIA-Members and want to bring them to court. How come those Spaghettis are American allies?

@ Markus

Please see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902971.html

To see a good breakdown of it see: http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_fallbackbelmont_archive.html

Scroll down to Nowhere Man.

"The US Constitution does not apply to foreign nationals ..." is false unless you add to the sentence "... when they are not on US soil."

As far as the rendition program, one must note that those in the "program" are repatriated to countries of which they are a citizen. To deny that these flights exist is incorrect, but to call them "torture flights" is just another example of the press inserting their point of view into a story.

i agree with Don.. so if they fly them back to their home country, THAT isn'T right..
If they keep them in Gitmo, THAT isn't right..
geez, sounds like the US can't do anything right, no matter what it does.. hold them, or give them to their home country, either way it ain't right..
typical.

I am getting so angry at the total anti-american bashing Goebbels Media.
If I were Pres. Bush, I would apologize to Germany about our assistance in rebuilding the country, since it seems to have been a gross mistake.
I would pull all troops out immediately, that would make sure that no "torture and other Crimes" are comitted on German soil.
Let's get rid of those "American Bloodsuckers." Even though 90% of American companies will have left Germany within 5 years, I would give them Tax incentives to relocate home immediately.
With the coming elections which will put the communists in charge, or at least have control over most of Germany's affairs it is imperative to me that cooperation with the new "Vichy Governments" will become futile.
We need to cut our losses, leave NATO, save our taxpayers some money and prepare for future conflicts with an (old and new) enemy

Yes the Germans have a long and proud history when it comes to Human Rights.

I think it is even a term that maybe they even coined.

A-by-C and amiexpat: don't waste your energy getting angry about it. US bases in Germany are being closed at a diplomatically efficient rate. We don't have to spend our hard-earned $$ with German businesses, and US businesses don't have to invest in Germany. Let nature take her course.

One affirmative step we SHOULD take, however, is to expand the availability of work visas for educated German citizens who want to relocate to the US. Nothing succeeds like enticing somebody else's best, brightest, and most ambitious to swap teams.

@raphael:

Scout: Sorry about that to all Americans, I'll have to do my homework better...BUt back to the topic: I just had the feeling that David and many commentators here are not adressing the mere fact that Monitor or anyone is reporting about that and does not report about good aspects of the American policy or about wrong-doing elsewhere, I rather got the impression that they critized WHAT they reported about, and that impression was affirmed by David writing that all that was "just another unproven legend spun by the left".

There's a simple reason for that. They are liars. L-I-A-R-S. There is not a shred of truth in the report. To paraphrase Dorothy Parker, every word of it is a lie, including "and" and "the".

I'm just waiting for them to say something like: "Ok, these are really serious accusiations, I'm not sure whether they're right but I hope that the media will do anything it can to bring light to that". Instead, it's "just another unproven legend spun by the left"...life's so easy when you have the leftists...

That's the old "It's not the nature of the evidence, it's the seriousness of the charge!" routine that the Left likes to use. The Left has accused; therefore it must be true, because they just wouldn't ever lie about a matter so, you know, serious.

@Poguemahone: "The US Constitution does not apply to foriegn nationals". So am I right in concluding that something like "Human Rights" does not exist in the US Constitution, merely "American Rights?"

Damn straight. When did it become the U.S.'s responsibility to extend human rights to the entire world? We do enough of that as it is. Let's go back and look at the Declaration of Independence material that you quoted:

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

Okay, let's review:

1. The people we are talking about do not recognize that Creator, or anything remotely resembling Him.
2. In their philosophy, the statement is completely untrue. The people in general have no rights; they exist solely to serve, and any attempt to understand one's plight is prima facie evidence of blasphemy. Only the privileged enjoy any rights in their system.
3. The people we are talking about are opposed to the very existence of the document that contains these words. In fact, had they been alive back then, if it had been in their power they would have killed the authors of the Declaration of Independence, and these words would have never been written in the first place.
4. Notice the last phrase, the Pursuit of Happiness. In their system, no such thing exists. Their entire culture is motivated by hatred. It exists for no other purpose than to hate and kill. If somehow they were to achive their stated goal and eliminate from the Earth all those that they consider "infidels", they would then simply resort to killing the faithful, and finally each other. Because killing is what they do. They know nothing else.
5. An assumption inherent in the Declaration of Independence is that the people in question desire to live in a state of civilization. A good working definition of civilization is that a civilization is not motivated primarily by a desire to kill indiscriminately. Therefore, the existence of the philosophy we are discussing here, and the people that follow it, is inherently incompatible with any form of civilized society. The Declaration of Independence would never apply to these people, any more than it would apply to ants -- because neither group is capable of understanding it.

Now, if you still want to continue to pick nits with the civilized people who have undertaken to do what is necessary to preserve a state of civilization, while giving a free pass to the enemy -- well, frankly, you can go to hell.

"Yes the Germans have a long and proud history when it comes to Human Rights." So do the USA, Joe. Think of the "Niggers". Or Native Americans. Ha-Ha.

!Paul from Florida! why don't you fuck yourself? Bastard.

As I said Germany has a long and proud history of Human Rights.

Are there Germans here who disagree with that statement?

Obviously you didn't follow the scandal that erupted in Italy following the hijacking of that Egyptian imam by CIA operatives. Italian prosecutors are not amused and we know a lot of proven details about the case.

Kidnapping someone and taking him by force to another country to have him interrogated (and we know for a fact that in Egypt torture is used as an interrogation means) is simply criminal and if I were a German prosecutor I'd fry the ass of any CIA operative who does such a thing in my country.

There is nothing anti-American in that. It is called UPHOLDING THE LAW.

If the CIA used German soil during the kidnapping they must be prosecuted..it's as simple as that. And if that occurs on a regular basis I expect the German government (whether Schröder or Merkel) to stop this.

@ Querdenker,

See the following, reposted

Please see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902971.html

To see a good breakdown of it see: http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_fallbackbelmont_archive.html

Scroll down to Nowhere Man.

All this talk about "rendition" flights. Do any of these flights originate from or cross German territory? Are they extra legal in any way if German citizens are involved? If so please let us know where and when? Are the conditions on these flights "torture"? I think a realistic and sane adult would say no to that, they are not torture or extra legal in most cases. This show and this meme is just the product of the imaginings of their fevered, radical, anti US, leftist brains.

These people are being transported to the country of their (nationality) origin. Their rights there and the practices of their governments are different than the rights people enjoy in the west. Where are the multicultural pushers telling us we must respect their right and customs? Oh I forgot the evil hegemon the United States of America is involved, all the LLL multicultural stuff goes out the window.

Unlike many other countries on the planet, the US government investigates and prosecutes those who actually mistreat prisoners. If one can show that is not the policy of the government and armed forces, please do so.

Panties on the head is not torture, making people uncomfortable is not torture, reading Harry Potter to someone is not torture. Pulling your fingernails out is torture. Electric shocks are torture. Beatings are torture. Hanging your body from meat hooks is torture. Rape and raping your children or spouse in front of you is torture. Simulated executions are torture. In short what these traitors to western culture and civilization claim is torture never has be nor never will be torture. It is only torture in their swamp fevered, radical, leftist brains.

Do us all a favor is you encounter one of these "reporters" whack them up side the head, maybe they will start to get a clue. Their treason is no longer going to be tolerated by societies passivity.

I'm just waiting for them to say something like: "Ok, these are really serious accusiations, I'm not sure whether they're right but I hope that the media will do anything it can to bring light to that". Instead, it's "just another unproven legend spun by the left"...life's so easy when you have the leftists...

@raphael

There are just too many undisputable examples of media lefty bias to believe “that the media will do anything it can to bring light” to anything that does not fit their agenda. So, that being said, excuse me if I also believe that it’s “just another unproven legend spun by the left.”

The Ticking Time Bomb

The CIA has a terrorist in custody that is known to have information about a time bomb that will detonate in one hour in a highly populated area. Due to his careful studying of the Al Qaeda handbook, the terrorist has not been responsive to normal interrogation techniques.

What’s your next step?

BTW, you have family members watching football in a sold-out stadium.


Well we seem to know that Egypt quite openly runs torture chambers in its jails

So why are they only of interest if they can be tied to the CIA?

What sanctions has the German gov't in place to punish Egypt for this behavior - what plans do German prosecutors have to charge Egyptian officials with these crimes?

Or is it only a crime if it can be linked to the USA?

Querdenker,

Let me get this straight - if I were a German prosecutor I'd fry the ass of any CIA operative who does such a thing in my country.

Does this mean you as the German prosecutor would actually apprehend and arrest these individuals? You sure have some big balls, my man. Most admireable and a bit unusual.

Of course, the easy way out would be to declare themselves as terrorists. They would never be convicted in a German court based on here to date track record of such performances.

Looks like our anonymous infant poster (scroll up some) needs a time-out.

Markus

Your question about Italy being an ally of the US is a good one.

That is not a question that needs to be asked about Germany.

Well I don't think there have been any really serious problems - any torture

When I hear our folks are putting innocent civillians through industrial shredders or feeding them to their pet tigers - well, THAT would be a serious issue

( not that the media ever cared while these things were actually happening in Iraq of course )

@Tina
It is very well possible that the Italian government was in the loop and is now covering its ass. That doesn't change anything about the nature of the hijacking. It is illegal and a felony, whether government officials know or even approve of it or not. It should be prosecuted as a felony and the Italian prosecutor is doing just that.
If Ramstein airbase was used then it's a German crime scene and a German prosecutor must look into the case.
That means: Should the CIA operatives ever tread on German soil they must be arrested and tried for hijacking.

StGB § 239a Erpresserischer Menschenraub

(1) Wer einen Menschen entführt oder sich eines Menschen bemächtigt, um die Sorge des Opfers um sein Wohl oder die Sorge eines Dritten um das Wohl des Opfers zu einer Erpressung (§ 253) auszunutzen, oder wer die von ihm durch eine solche Handlung geschaffene Lage eines Menschen zu einer solchen Erpressung ausnutzt, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe nicht unter fünf Jahren bestraft.

(2) In minder schweren Fällen ist die Strafe Freiheitsstrafe nicht unter einem Jahr.

(3) Verursacht der Täter durch die Tat wenigstens leichtfertig den Tod des Opfers, so ist die Strafe lebenslange Freiheitsstrafe oder Freiheitsstrafe nicht unter zehn Jahren.

I don't see any exceptions made for people who are alleged to be terrorists. Nor any for CIA operatives

hey babe,
unlike the us the uk still enjoys a degree of freedom of speech. the questions are tough and they should be given the issues at stake...

terrorists ???

Hell here I thought they were freedom fighters!

@ Querdenker,

Well that's kind of convenient, isn't it? If the CIA does the Italian gov't a favor it should then be convicted in a court of law?

Perhaps then, the US shouldn't do any favors for Italy or any other European gov't, given the level of hypocrisy over such matters.

Let's also get something straight here and let's keep this in the real world, if you please. The clandestine services that serve their respective countries break laws. Fortunately, that is the primary means they use to do their jobs. End of story. I know it is a tough pill to swallow, but even German clandestine services break laws. They do it willingly, freely and out of necessity for the gov't they serve.

I am fine with the Italian court going after the CIA agents, but they might open up a Pandora's box they would just as soon not open. Trust me, if the agents are even turned over, which I doubt will happen, they'll take the Italians down with them as well as shutting off all cooperation between US and Italian covert and information sharing operations.

In this age, that is dangerous for both countries.

Also, it would seem to me, unless Italian law is screwy, that the judges should be looking at their own gov't also. For example, if I were to pay someone to steal something, I would also be charged with a crime as well as the guy or gal who actually committed the crime.

Does this Italian court have the ability and wherewithall to take down the Italian covert services? I would be suprised if it is possible.

Cousin Dave,

If you mean the coward, yes I would have to agree with you.

Even for him his postings are a bit more boring than ususal. Must be something he is trying to pass.

Tina, of course. I don't know whether the CIA "did the Italian government a favor" or not. Fact is that they committed a crime and should be prosecuted for that. If the Italian government conspired they should be prosecuted, too. And if, while the hijacking was committed, the hijackers entered Germany, Germany must prosecute them, too.
Obviously the United States will protect its operatives but since the photos are known they won't be able to enter Europe again.
And that's not a CIA matter. If members of the KGB, the French intelligence or whoever else did that, same rules apply.
And if German BND agents get caught in the U.S. committing a hijacking they'd face the same trouble I guess.

@james W.: Your Ticking Time Bomb Scenario is a theoretical construction which is brought up everytime to justify torture, just like a broken record. Can you name me any situation where this actually took place? I can't, but I can name you hundreds of thousands of cases when people got tortured for minor reasons, and where torture started from the same kind of argumentations. The problem is, you just can't control it. And the consequence of allowing torture on basis of a theoretical situtaion is it opens the doors for actual torture on other, minor situations, including torture and killing of innocents. In practice, attempts to use torture sparingly have quickly led to widespread abuse. Where do you draw the line? What proves do you need to say the person actually is a terrorist? How high populated has to be that area to allow torture, how many people have do be in danger, what kind of torture are you allowed to use, pulling out fingernails, bombing the home village of the suspected terrorist or blowing up his neighbourhood or what?

@ Tina: Ok, I think we agree on most of the points, didn't mean to punch you ;-) I don't think though that the motive of power is a bad one in itself, it depends on the result, and if the result is that the administration is controlled on these kinds of things (be it torture or having sex with interns...), it's ok for me. Apart from that, do you really think that power is the ONLY motivation for politicians? I think that's quite a cynical point of view, and basically delegimizes democracy in general.
Sorry if I got the impression that you were in favour of torture (as you define it), like Fuchur said above it seems not that self-evident anymore these days. I 100% agree with you on that: "In those cases where a crime has been committed, the offending person needs to be charged, get a fair hearing and then a decision. If found guilty, he or she should be punished", and may add: punished hard.


@Joe: Excellent arguments you are making here

Finally, I find it quite shocking that most of you seem to say: These allegations are total bullshit, while at the same time you say: But, actually, torture would be quite a good idea. BTW, it makes absolutey no difference if the US government tortures itself or if it hands the suspects over to countries of which they know are torturing.


Sorry for my long posts

Niko,

Once you pull back the first layer, is there really that much difference between the PSD and the spd?

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