The Axis of Exploitation: Schroeder - Fischer - German Media

(By Ray D.)

Today, SPD Vice-Chairwoman Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul lashed-out at the CDU's foreign policy representative Friedbert Pflueger for suggesting, in an interview with the French newspaper "Le Figaro", that the Paris-Berlin-Moscow "axis" has wrongly directed its efforts against the United States and divided Europe in the process. According to SPIEGEL ONLINE, Zeul asserted that the real background of the CDU's statements was the Schroeder government's blanket rejection of the Iraq war. She went on to claim that German troops would be in Baghdad today had the Christian Democrats been in power and sternly warned CDU Chairwoman Angela Merkel that she would have a lot of explaining to do in her Tuesday meeting with French President Jacques Chirac.

Also today, in a SPIEGEL ONLINE interview, Joschka Fischer was asked if he had always taken the "right tone" with the United States during his time in office as Germany's Foreign Minister. His answer was unfortunate if not entirely predictable in that it focused almost exclusively on the Iraq war. Mr. Fischer re-asserted that Germany was right to oppose the war and pointed out that his concerns over Iraq had been "confirmed", calling the war a "mistake". Mr. Fischer nevertheless concluded that he was in favor of transatlantic friendship and was a "Transatlantiker" through and through, but stated that he would not be a "follower" of the United States like "Frau Merkel."

One also has to wonder which of the following predictions, made by prominent members of Schroeder and Fischer's governing coalition before the war, have since been "confirmed"?:

Claudia Roth (Greens) predicted that an attack on Iraq would unleash a firestorm in the wider Middle East, implying that the entire region could be thrown into a state of war.

Olaf Scholz, Secretary General of the SPD (Schroeder's Social Democratic Party): The war will "likely result in the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people."

Heidi Wieczorek-Zeul (SPD), Minister of Development Aid: She expected "hundreds of thousands of innocent people, civilians, children, women" to become war victims, and she expected two to three million refugees. Like Roth, Zeul also said that the Iraq war would "unleash an unimaginable firestorm" in the region.

The former SPD-politician Erhard Eppler expected "the lives of hundreds of thousands, possibly millions (of people) at risk".

Jürgen Trittin (The Greens), Minister for the Environment: "The Ministry of the Environment has several studies, among them UN documents. According to these 40.000 to 200.000 victims of military actions can be expected. (...) We are afraid, that up to 200.000 more people might die from the consequences of a war."

Christian Ströbele, MP (Greens): "Tens of thousands of deaths..."

Wolfgang Thierse, President of the German Parliament (SPD): "I think of the millions of people in Baghdad, who will be victims of bombs and rockets."

The only prediction remotely close to being true was that of Christian Ströbele, unless of course, one actually lends credence to the profoundly flawed results of the Lancet study. But Mr. Ströbele likely expected the deaths to be the direct result of US military action during an actual attack on Iraq. They haven't been. Many of the deaths to date have been caused by a ruthless insurgency consisting of former Saddam supporters and Islamo-Fascist terrorists who have blown away innocent children bystanders by the dozens and brutally beheaded kidnapped civilians.

And whether or not the US had invaded Iraq, the violent fanatics at the root of the ongoing havoc in Iraq would have almost certainly found another way to kill and oppress their fellow men, either as Saddam's henchmen or as followers of bin Laden. Mr. Fischer and all of his left-wing friends were clearly wrong when they predicted that US intervention would create a swell of popular support for Al-Qaeda sponsored terror in the Middle East. A new poll strongly indicates that the very opposite is true. Middle Easterners and Muslims around the world are increasingly rejecting suicide bombings and terror. Only an increasingly fanatical and isolated minority continue to support Al-Qaeda. The very real emergence of democracy in the Middle East in places like Iraq and Lebanon has caused many to rethink their views and begin to hope for a better life for the first time in decades.

But Mr. Fischer and Ms. Wieczorek-Zeul have plenty of backup in German society when they say it was totally right to oppose the removal of Saddam Hussein. For over two years - virtually without end - the German media have been almost exclusively negative on Iraq, repeatedly calling the war a disaster, a debacle and a quagmire. Iraq has been compared to Vietnam so many times that one could easily lose count. Just in SPIEGEL publications alone, the words "debacle", "disaster", "quagmire" and "Vietnam" have already been used scores of times to describe the conflict. But by what standards is Iraq a debacle? To date the United States has lost nearly 1800 soldiers in the Iraq conflict. The Battle of the Bulge alone cost the lives of ten times as many Americans. Does that make the Battle of the Bulge a debacle times ten? During the course of World War II, tens of millions of civilians died or were killed. Does that make the liberation of Germany and Japan in 1945 a debacle times a thousand and beyond?

And positive developments in Iraq, such as the reconstruction of schools, hospitals and power plants, dramatic improvements in women's rights and the strengthening economy have been almost totally ignored in Germany. Even when reporting on good news that is impossible to ignore, like the January elections, major sectors of the German media were so negative that a respected media research institute concluded that Arab networks like Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabia provided more upbeat coverage.

Furthermore, the German media have crassly underreported the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein. The mass graves, the use of chemical weapons to murder thousands of innocents in Halabja, the torture, the rape-rooms, the mass exodus of millions out of Iraq, the theft of billions by the Hussein regime from the starving Iraqi people to build palaces.

European indifference to Saddam’s atrocities is the true 'disaster' and 'debacle' of our time: Hundreds of thousands shared their fate while the European media looked the other way... (source)

These topics all seem to be of little interest to the German press. So is it any wonder, with this type of reporting, that most Germans think the Iraq war was, is and will continue to be a total disaster? Is it any wonder that Joschka Fischer can confidently sit back and talk about how he feels "confirmed" about his worries over Iraq. Of course he feels confirmed! His ideological lapdogs in the German media have provided him all the cover he could ever need with their profoundly biased news coverage over the past several years!

Not surprisingly, SPIEGEL ONLINE has already published a handful of articles, including a recent piece entitled "Uncle Sam wants Merkel", about how absolutely delighted Bush and other American conservatives would supposedly be if Schroeder and Fischer lost the next election. It is becoming increasingly evident that the editors at SPON are attempting to cheaply exploit readers' dislike of the Bush administration and disdain for the Iraq war to dampen support for the CDU. Few other German media publications have seized so vehemently and critically on the issue of the CDU's support of closer transatlantic relations than SPIEGEL ONLINE. But then again, it is already clear that the people who run SPIEGEL ONLINE are not really interested in better transatlantic relations...are they?

Will Merkel Really be a "Follower"?

Upon closer examination of the CDU's statements, it is difficult to understand how Wieczorek-Zeul (Social Democrats) and Fischer (Greens) can claim that a Merkel government will act as a blind and loyal "follower" of the United States. In fact, Friedbert Pflueger has repeatedly stated that transatlantic relations would not be about "holding everything for correct that is said in Washington." In a June 28 interview, Pflueger noted that all German Chancellors have had differences of opinions with Washington and made it clear that a Merkel government would be no different. He further pointed out that the CDU clearly had a different policy than the United States on Turkey's proposed admission to the EU. But Mr. Pflueger has also continually emphasized that a better transatlantic relationship is desirable and will provide the basis for future efforts to resolve German-American differences. Here is a translation of the June 28 interview:

Question: What is your estimation of the transatlantic climate and German-American relations, in which, at the moment, little seems to be coming together.

Pflueger: In fact the relations could be much better and have actually traditionally been so under all Chancellors from Adenauer to Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt to Helmut Kohl. And not in the sense that one didn't always have differences of opinion with Washington, all Chancellors have had them. But through all the differences of opinion, there was always a sort of basic trust, and that basic trust is, I believe, not there. There has been a light improvement in the transatlantic relationship since the visit of the American President to Europe in February. But we have a Chancellor who has indeed put a much stronger emphasis on Russia and has an exceptionally cool relationship with Washington. Regardless of what one thinks of Bush and the Bush administration, it is not good when the, then as now, largest and strongest nation in the world is not more strongly and trustingly tied into what we do in terms of foreign policy.

Question: Assuming that in Autumn a change in power in fact occurs in Germany - what would you, what would your party do differently than the current government in the transatlantic relationship?

Pflueger: I think, that which is truly important is that one re-establishes this relationship of trust that we spoke about at the beginning of our conversation. It is not about holding everything for correct that is said in Washington. My party and fraction are for example, of a different opinion than George Bush when it comes to Turkey. Such an issue must be debated with the Americans. Also on the matter of Guantanamo we have a different opinion and would advise a different policy. We need this transatlantic relationship in the long-term when we want to approach any particular problem in the world. Above all, also for protection of the environment and climate, we need the Americans. And in this sense we hope that we can convince the Americans that multilateral agreements are also in their interests."

Mr. Pflueger hardly sounds like an obedient "follower" of the Bush administration or a raving neo-con. After reading what he actually thinks about German-American relations, the attacks leveled against his party by his Red-Green opponents and their repeated attempts to exploit Iraq and Bush for electoral gain can only be dismissed as the desperate last gasps of a failing government...

(Endnote: This article was written on Monday, July 18. Emphasis ours throughout. Looking for quality German-language blogs? Click here.)

Comments

[Joe]

Well this is some what predictable by the German M$M. They have to make this election about GWB if the left has any chance to win.

They surely cannot point to the accomplishments of the current government as a reason to sent them back to Berlin.

It really is about emotions for the Germans. None of this has anything to do with reality or facts.

So one or more parties are going to promise the German people they are going to fix all that is wrong and this will be pain free. The Germans will chose the least painful option whether the results are real change or not.

Germans have trouble with choices.

I ask again has anyone ever met an unhappy German?

[Jabba the Tutt]

...Zeul asserted that the real background of the CDU's statements was the Schroeder government's blanket rejection of the Iraq war."

I think the SPD has decided on their election campaign strategy: Attack in both directions. Attack the CDU/Merkel as an American puppet, who'll send German troops to Iraq. (Gee, I wonder what the German troops in Afghanistan feel about this kind of support?)

And attack left by calling WASG/PDS as 'rightwing populist' or 'reeking of brown'. I saw Hans-Jochen Vogel accuse the WASG guy on Sabine Christiansen's show of toying with 'rightwing populism' (Fremdarbeiter comment). The SPD is in the vise, so they're attacking both ways.

[americanbychoice]

I don't share your assessment.
I believe that there may be a RED(Brown) RED Green coalition. Red is still red even if there is a little brown mixed into it.
I don't believe anything the SPD is saying. When it comes to holding onto power the real Faust will emerge.
Transatlantic relations in this case..... forget about it.

[Phil]

There will be no Red Red Green coalition. The SPD leaders hate Lafontaine too much by now. If the new left (right) wing party does well there will be a grand coalition. I don't know what to think of that but I guess I'd be happy if Zeul is dropped and Pflueger comes in.

[Hartmut]

@Joe:

Germanys biggest problem is that there is no real debate here, which in part is the result of our voting system, proportional represantation. Lots of the Members of the Bundestag aren't voted directly in office, but get into the parliament because they are on the list of their party. This is especially true for the smaller parties, like the so called "Greens" or the FDP. There are no real pre-elections, so in the end, we have to vote for an ideology and not for a person. The Members of the Bundestag (MdBs) are mostly "Parteisoldaten", and not interested in real debate, the Parties in Germany attract mostly "Funktionäre".

Especially the CDU isn't interested in defending their ideas, or doesn't have the intellectual capacity to do so. This is why "Fox News Germany" and conservative german Talkradio is so badly needed here.

One day in the far future Slimy Friedbert will send you lots of money and troops.

So don't panic. Help is near.

[Phil]

Hey guys,
this might be of interest for you with regards to the actual number of civilian death cases in Iraq since the start of the war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1531742,00.html?gusrc=rss

[amiexpat]

and how many would have died if Saddam had stayed in power? and his sick sons took the reigns from him? compared to his sons, Saddam was the Dalai Lama.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0226/p11s02-coop.html

I heard no solutions from the anti war crowd, just stupid slogans.
+

[Phil]

@ amiexpat,

I did not try to make a point with that post, it was just information that I thought was interesting.

If anything, this study shows that far fewer than 100 000 people died as it is now often claimed by left-wingers. Even more importantly is the fact that it is not the US that accounts for the majority of deaths but criminals and 'insurgents', i.e. terrorists. This does not seem to bother people like George Galloway.

[Dianne]

"Mr. Fischer nevertheless concluded that he was in favor of transatlantic friendship and was a "Transatlantiker" through and through, but stated that he would not be a "follower" of the United States like "Frau Merkel."

So, he prefers to be an ass kisser of islamic terrorism. Got it.

[George M.]

@ Phil

I just feel the outrage expressed by the Guardian: 25,000 Iraqi's have died in the war to date. This figure now surpasses the number of elderly that died in France during the European heat wave two years ago: 13,000.

Remember this: Less people have died in Gitmo than in the front seat of Senator Kennedy's Oldsmobile.

[George M.]

Dianna:

He was a message boy for Carlos the Jackal during the kidnapping of the OPEC oil ministers, 30 years ago.

[amiexpat]

excuse me, saint Joschka, I am NOT convinced!

[Jeff]

what is wrong with:

Christian Ströbele, MP (Greens): "Tens of thousands of deaths..."?

what's your bodycount?

[Ray D.]

Ummm Jeff, we specifically addressed that in the article...

[leaddog2]

The Guardian is NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate and is ALWAYS a left-wing race baiting rag.

Even with teir "phony numbers" approximately
8,000 civilian deaths were "supposedly caused
by our Troops".

What was France's excuse for the murder of the
13,000 old people again?

[John]

The 13,000 heat deaths in France are of an entirely different matter if you wish to discuss methods of balancing social security, and government funds for the elderly this is the worng forum.

[Zyme]

Slimy Friedbert - lol that fits 100%

His kind even wants us not to receive a permanent seat in the security council. Such are traitors to our interests, they should be hung !

If Wilhelm II wasnt already dead for more than 60 years, knowing that these monkeys will sit in our next government, he would jump off the next bridge for sure.

[Ray D.]

@ Zyme:

Where does Pflueger say he is against Germany having a permanent seat at the UN security council? Could you give us that link?

[Zyme]

@ Ray D.

Pflüger is - like you mentioned - CDU's foreign policy representative. Wolfgang Schäuble also is one of the most important politicians of the CDU when it comes to foreign policy.
I m especially referring to him when i m talking about Pflüger's kind.

And Schäuble recently was in china, and thanked the chinese for their opposition to the G 4 plans since he does not want a permanent seat for germany.

Those are traitors, like i said.

[James]

Survey: 25,000 civilians killed in Iraq war

Let's just assume that the figure of 25,000 is correct, and it is also assumed that Saddam killed 300,000 people - just since 1991. Lets do some math.

1991 - 2003 - 300,000 dead or 25,000 per year
2003/3 - 2005/7 - 25,000 dead or 10,000 per year

So, the coalition has reduced deaths by 60% per year on average.

But recent figures issued by the Interior Ministry -- saying that 8,175 have been killed in the first six months of this year -- signal a high number of civilian deaths.

Mostly done by foreign fighters AKA al Qaea and uncomprimising Bathist loyalists AKA insurgents.

Baghdad accounted for almost half of the deaths and Falluja had the second highest loss of life.

The British have it a lot easier than the Americans.

[SleepingInSeattle]

This should turn out to be an interesting election. Sorry, but those loudmouths from the SPD and "Greens" are getting annoying by now and I hope they get stomped. I've also been hearing about harping on Frau Merkel's lack of beauty so to speak, as if Gerhard, whom I want to make clear does not die his hair, is some sort of hot item.

[Ambrose Wolfinger]

@ George M

I'm quite sure that you already know that today is the 36th anniversary of the death of Mary Jo Kopechne at the hands of Senator Edward M. Kennedy.

My recollection is that Miss Kopechne's body was found in the rear seat of Senator Kennedy's Oldsmobile. This is why I've always thought that there was a third person in the car when Sen. Kennedy drove off the bridge and that he never knew Miss Kopechne was in the car until his car was recovered.

A minor reason that I moved away from Massachusetts is that I could never be comfortable in a place that constantly elected such men of high character as Sen. Kennedy, Rep. Frank and Rep. Studds (what a perfect name).

[Jake]

It might be interesting for the German people to note what happened in Washington DC last night. A true friend and ally in the War on Terror was hosted for a state dinner. The Indian people and prime minister were honored by the American people for their steadfast support in making the world of our grandchildren a safer place. The American political and business elite gathered in the White House to toast the future of US / Indian relations and the US, among other things, pledged to provide significant transfers of capital and technology to a future superpower... the country of India.

Contrast this event with the visit of Chancellor Schroeder to Washington several weeks ago. Following his previous visit to the US when the US president refused to meet with him, Schroeder was given a cursory White House photo op where the president subtly ridiculed him in public (a bit too nuanced for non native English speakers to understand, but true none the less). After the brief meeting Schroeder was packed off to do several non-events and then left the country with his tail between his legs. Unlike the Indian Prime Minister, the American president gave no words of support for permanent membership on the UN security council, nor were any significant bi-lateral trade or defense initiatives signed.

There is a price to paid by European leaders who demagogue trans-Atlantic relations for the benefit of their domestic political agendas. It is the price of fading on the world stage in relation to the emerging powers of the 21st century. The powers that be (and I refer specificaly to the German press) should think twice about their children and grandchildren before using anti-Americanism to further their own short term interests.

[Sock Puppet of Doom]

If I was a German citizen and not just an ethnic German, I would find out how the top civil servants (non-elected or non politically appointed) in the security apparatus were aligned politically or registered. They might know what is best for Germany's true security. I think you might all be surprised that their are no Reds or Greens there.

About these ridiculous numbers of Iraqi fatalities being thrown about by German political hacks. What concern is it actually of the German people or government? After all Germany has no real presence in Iraq. Why is it even Germany's concern? Everyone knows Germany's stance on Iraq, it's old news. Even Merkel can't change that. Politically Germans are against Iraq. There will never be a German presence in Iraq. That is old news. There might however be more troops in Afghanistan. Germany has a stake there. All that opium that ends up in Europe is coming from there. It has NATO support as well.

As for a German UN seat? No chance in hell would be my guess unless France wants to give up it's seat or the US leaves the UN. I know many here in the US including myself who want the UN out of the USA and the USA out of the UN. I would have not said that before 9/11 but after that I came to that position. These clowns can't even decide what a terrorist is. After the “oil for food” embarrassment everyone can easily see that the United Nations is a criminal enterprise more than a world body that has peace as it's interest. What Germans need to focus on perhaps is how many people did Kofi Anan kill with his scam, not imagined numbers of dead Iraqis kill by the US pulled out of someones posterior.

[M. Simon]

One hundred years of socialism in Europe has proved one thing for sure.

Without a robust hypercapitalist economy there is no money to support socialist policies.

A robust economy does more for the poor than any amount of socialism.

Karl Marx said capitalism was hard.

One hundred years of socialism in Europe have proven socialism is harder.

[M. Simon]

Drug Prohibition is a price support mechanism for criminals.

[Querdenker]

"dramatic improvements in women's rights"????

Excuse me but if one thing has not improved in Iraq it's women's rights.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/international/middleeast/20women.html?hp&ex=1121918400&en=7e46c8b83d6b572d&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Querdenker]

Link too long:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/20/international/middleeast/20women.html

@jake

It might be interesting for the German people to note what happened in Washington DC last night

it is not interesting for most germans, we dont really care whats going on in the usa, america is not really relevant anymore for most germans or europeans of the new generations! There is absolutely nothing we could admire
America is OUT, europe is the future
I can understand that many americans are pissed because they lose more and more influence in europe........you are history here in europe!

[James]

@no comment

I like how you confuse SPD/PDS/DUV/Die Republikanner/SEK/Neue Left Partie with "Europe."

I was in Estonia last weekend and they are more supportive of the US than of Germany and Russia. They fully embrace the idea of independance, respect and individualism. Qualities found in America and not elsewhere in Europe.

Furthermore, how can average european growth rates of 1.3% be the "future" as you exlaim? Whilst the US has 3x that rate? For the past 10 years no-less.

Keep on dreaming buddy. Create a false history where the US was the hostile agent on the continent (ie SPD/ARD), whilst Uncle Joe raped and stole from your eastern brothers. Meanwhile, we fed the city of Berlin.

As I continue to travel around Europe I discover that it's only the Germans that like to create fabrications to justify their already-present hostile attitudes. Also, I have found that most Europeans prefer Americans to Germans. They have never forgotton, nor will I expect that they will.

Ironcically, I too support the withdrawl of the US from Nato and the European continent. For too long German children have grown spoiled and contemptous.

[poguemahone]

Well - anonymous wrote "it is not interesting for most germans, we dont really care whats going on in the usa, america is not really relevant anymore for most germans or europeans of the new generations!"

Oh how I wish this were true

Unfortunately much of Europe, and almost the entire European media, has made it a standard practice to bash the United States, government, people and culture ( bet that gets a laugh don't it ) while reclining in self absorbed superiority

Negative news related to the USA dominates Euro media - every Hans, Jaque and Antonio has an opinion about why the US is an awful place

Bush - Kyoto - Bush - guns - Bush - Iraq - Bush -

While in the US - we sincerely don't care what is going on in Europe

As long as your not trying to tie our hands as we deal with the threat of Islamic facism that is

Oh - and I agree with Sock above - I also used to laugh at the "US out of the UN - UN out of the US" crowd

Not anymore

As far as I am concerned the whole bunch on the East River can get out tmmrw

[americanbychoice]

anonymous

It is always interesting when people like you show their ignorance on these threads.
You can call "Auslaender raus" as often as you want. Without Auslaender, and their contribution to the German economy, you would be at the same level as Russia. Apparently you have never had to stand in Breadlines or scrounge for toiletpaper?

Being American (not a hyphenated American) I am constantly amazed at your dumb rhetoric abound this blog.
It seems that most Germans have a limited knowledge on how our Government works and horrors....how could it ever work since the "new" EU is the cradle of civilization, culture and social delights?
I have used "new" on purpose here. I do believe that the real EU has existed for over 230 years and it has flourished it just happened to be on another continent, the USA. Despite our problems, we have always managed to overcome those through entrepreneurship and the belief in ourselves and our fellow man. Downtrodden citizens turned their backs on their oppressive regimes, endured hardship and created a constitution and fellowship that embraces all people regardless of their heritage. Once the enslavement of their regimes was over, there seemed to be no limit to the creation of a Union. Now this country has expanded to welcome citizens from all over the world to embrace this freedom of self rule and expression.
I guess it is time now to pass on the time honored title, EU to old Europe and embrace the new name of World Union, because we now have citizens that hail from around the globe. I can only hope that Europe can deal with that challenge as well as America has, judging by history this should prove to be a tremendous task.
That is exactly what has happed in this country and I, for one, am proud of that heritage.
In the last 30 years we have grown from 200 million citizens to 300 million. In another 30 years we are expected to number 500 million. That is without counting over 20 million illegals who are using our system. Despite all that, we still manage to have better economic growth and lower unemployment. Maybe we can contribute all of this to ONE basic difference between Germany and the USA? In the USA we believe in limited Government, whereas in Germany the basic premise remains: As much government as possible?

Something right must be going on, don't you think? :)

[Ray D.]

@ Querdenker:

That is a pretty weak link that is purely speculative. The constitution hasn't even been agreed upon yet. If that is all you have to criticize I feel pretty good. I would say that gaining the right to vote in elections with more than one real candidate is by itself an enormous gain for Iraqi women. In the long-run, the entire Iraqi people will clearly have a much better life than they would have had under Saddam and his sons so long as the civilized world does not give-in to the terrorists trying to bomb us back into the stone age.

[Zyme]

@ americanbychoice

"In the last 30 years we have grown from 200 million citizens to 300 million. In another 30 years we are expected to number 500 million. That is without counting over 20 million illegals who are using our system."

That indeed marks a difference between europe and america: while you are proud of an increase of total population, we rather want our population to decrease than pumping our countries full of foreign barbarians. I like that term, since it works the same in our times than it did in the ancient times: barbarians at our borders, threatening civilization. Just take a look at those refugees, where they come and what kind of "culture" they got.

And you are proud that so many of em make it into america - that really explains a lot.

@ poguemahone

"While in the US - we sincerely don't care what is going on in Europe. As long as your not trying to tie our hands as we deal with the threat of Islamic facism that is"

Isnt that exactly what we are doing ? Oh and which country supplied Bin Laden in the first place - wait i think its called US.. A!?

@ James

"Create a false history where the US was the hostile agent on the continent (ie SPD/ARD), whilst Uncle Joe raped and stole from your eastern brothers. Meanwhile, we fed the city of Berlin."

After bombing it to ruins, do you really think anyone is going to be grateful for that anymore?

"Also, I have found that most Europeans prefer Americans to Germans. They have never forgotton, nor will I expect that they will."

Your kind better does not forget either, since that might tell you a lesson of what happens if german interests are not respected for a longer period of time.

[Ray D.]

@ James:

Nice comeback. You put anonymous back into his/her lonely little corner.

[americanbychoice]

Zyme,
You want your nation to decrease? Well, be careful what you wish for, you may get it.
Apparently, you have no concept of economics. Your ignorance is appalling. I can see you begging for money when the Government will be unable to honoe it's commitments regarding pensions. This is where you are headed and it isn't just speculation. It is one of the biggest challenges Europe and Russia face.
I am glad that your attitude is encouraging bankruptcy to happen sooner rather than later.

[amiexpat]

@zyme.. you said
That indeed marks a difference between europe and america: while you are proud of an increase of total population, we rather want our population to decrease than pumping our countries full of foreign barbarians. I like that term, since it works the same in our times than it did in the ancient times: barbarians at our borders, threatening civilization. Just take a look at those refugees, where they come and what kind of "culture" they got.

yeah those ami 'barbarians'.. the 'barbarians' who overran America... say doesn't 25 percent of the US have German ancestry? yeah, the barbarians took over America all right..
My grandfather from Esslingen..
what a Barbarian... went to America, built a nice life for himself - died an American after a long healthy successful life in BARBARIANLAND. I came back to Europe to live to explore my roots.. when I hear your crap Zyme, I understand why he left.

what barbarians are you referring to that want to take over Europe? the Turks I assume from European history..
say... didn't Germany INVITE the turks to Germany.. met them with bouquets of flowers..
to get them to come to Germany.. but only as GUESTS... Gastarbeiter.. we wouldn't want you to actually STAY here.. Serve us as long as we need you, then get the hell out.. kind of like disposable razors..
doesnt the current batch of Gutmenschen .. don't they want Turkey in the EU? Schroeder, Fischer and co.? me, I like the turks, I have never been mistreated by a Turk in Germany.. can't say the same about Germans, sorry to say..

so you don't like American 'culture', Zyme?
Bild Zeitung u. Dieter Bohlen... are those
two products of Deutsch hochkultur.. oh sorry, LEIT(D)KULTUR?

what a f..... SNOB

[James]

Lets make a quick review of our rather new poster Zyme.

1) Zyme claims to be a law student from Bavaria. For many of our American poster here, this means that he could be 35 years old and still living at his parents house with many more years to study - he has never denied this.

2) Last week he said that his grandparents had slaves during the NAZI time. He argued that his grandparents were not violating human rights as Hitler had given them.

3) The EU Constitution is right in upholding the decision NOT to extradite Mohammad Atta's friend to Spain at the request of Spain. BUT the EU constitution has already been "passed" by the German government. The German government only observes/ignores laws that it sees as beneficial: can anyone say Kyoto? Or stability pact?

4) He argues that invading Iraq has caused more al Qaeda there. Although no one before the invasion argued this point. It's like just grabbing at any other argument in support of Schröder's decision to do nothing.

5) Germany and their seat on the UN - Zyme would like for Germany to have a seat on the UN.

a) Whilst at the same time the German-approved constitution creates a common EU foreign minister. Would not having another European minister confuse the whole idea efficiency of the security council? Shouldn’t France and the UK merge their seat into the EU foreign minister?
b) No other German in modern history negated the role of the UN other than Schröder by quoting "The German Way." Regardless of what the UN decides, we are not going to help in Iraq. Does that sound like you've earned a seat on the UN Sec Council?

@Zyme

After bombing it to ruins, do you really think anyone is going to be grateful for that anymore?

I like the hypocrisy. Did you rebuild/feed Warsaw, Minsk, Leningrad, London? Berliners are the ones that often like Americans the most, they always make mention of the Berlin airlift!

Your kind better does not forget either, since that might tell you a lesson of what happens if German interests are not respected for a longer period of time.

Is that a threat? How is the US stopping German interests? Are you going to declare war on us, again?

6) Zyme has been told of the importance of fighting the cold war by many other posters here. He discounts the efforts done by the US (US spent more on NATO than all other NATO members combined). However, once the export market doors were open, zyme quotes the importance of these markets to the German economy and how well Germany is exporting. Zyme, without American resolve in fighting the cold war, you wouldn't have a market to sell these goods to. No exports to Russia and no oil and natural gas imports from Russia. You can thank my parents for footing the bill on this one for you. I have called you a parasite in the past because it best summarizes your country's behavior and gratitude. Something you also didn't deny.

7) The US supported German reunification whilst the Soviet Union, France and the UK stood opposed.

--------------------

Other posters are encouraged to extend “our understanding of the poster Zyme.”

[Room 237]

About the upcoming election, someone once posted here a German site that had ongoing poll results. Does anyone have the link?

Danke!

[Tyranno]

Scratch the surface of the SPD and I am willing to bet you will find an American democrat operative (Carville?) advising the Schroeder campaign. It has all of their earmarks, changing the subject off of their utter lack of vision or ideas for the future and finding a focal point to "hate" and blame together. "Bush is stupid" and look, Merkle supports Bush. The deutschvolk seem a bit more suceptable to this than your average bear.

I have to say that after having lived in Germany for several years that I think Schroeder's bait and switch line will work.
Reading the mainstream German media certainly gives the impression of a deep seated dislike (resentment?) for that unrecognizable one diminsional groupthink characteur of what all too many Germans seem to need to believe about the average American, in general; and for the liberation of Iraq in particular.
I think it is fairly obvious that most Europeans are lemming like. I don't know any other place in the world that considers itself "free" and "sophisticated" and yet polls 80+% on so many topics.

Is it just me or does anyone else draw a parallel between the nilistic Iraqi/Arab thinking of being "glad that Saddam is gone" but
"resenting that the Americans/ coalition had to do it" . . . and the current old Europe revisionist history refuting any desire on America's part to help ~ only that America came into the second war Germany started on the continent this last century to "take control of the European continent and eventually the world!"
This is the kind of michaelmoorish sophist drivel that passes for "insight" among all too many deutsch. I had a german friend exactly state "We Germans are somewhat mad that the Americans and Allies got rid of Hitler, not the German people!" I about spit out my pils when I heard him say almost verbatim what I had heard uneducated, impoverished, 30 year repressed Iraqis say. When he then started telling me about "the liberation of Germany from the Nazis" I decided that reminding him of that silly ol' election that put the little corporal in power . . . was a road probably not worth persuing at that moment.

TYranno

[Tyranno]

John posts:

"The 13,000 heat deaths in France are of an entirely different matter if you wish to discuss methods of balancing social security, and government funds for the elderly this is the worng forum."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Indeed John, but if you want to discuss the bizarrely obsessive act of always and only seeking out the alleged "sins" of the U.S.A. (in the German medias in this site's case) while ignoring, minimizing and discounting any and everyone else's behaviors in this world. . . then this is a very appropriate forum.

Tyranno

[mamapajamas]

@James: "Other posters are encouraged to extend “our understanding of the poster Zyme.”"

Indeed. This: @Zyme "That indeed marks a difference between europe and america: while you are proud of an increase of total population, we rather want our population to decrease than pumping our countries full of foreign barbarians. I like that term, since it works the same in our times than it did in the ancient times: barbarians at our borders, threatening civilization. Just take a look at those refugees, where they come and what kind of "culture" they got.

"And you are proud that so many of em make it into america - that really explains a lot."

...this says more about Zyme than it does about the US or Germany. Is this xenophobia, or what? ;) And so many Euros say the US is xenophobic!

[mamapajamas]

@Sock Puppet: "As for a German UN seat? No chance in hell would be my guess unless France wants to give up it's seat or the US leaves the UN. I know many here in the US including myself who want the UN out of the USA and the USA out of the UN. I would have not said that before 9/11 but after that I came to that position. These clowns can't even decide what a terrorist is."

I used to be a UN "holdout" supporter, too. I figured that the UNSC's work during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 justified the existence of the organization. That was the closest we ever came to a nuclear war.

Then I found out that while the UN delegates spent that week talking the Crisis to death, Kennedy and Khruschev solved the problem over the telephone.

Since I found out about that, I haven't been able to think of one, single UNSC accomplishment.

It's past time to bulldoze it into the East River.