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Pamela, James W., and Erik Svane,

I see your point. This one program, taken in the larger context of an all-encompassing German media bias against the U.S., becomes much easier for a public, deprived of conflicting viewpoints, to embrace unquestioningly. If true it is a depressing state of affairs for the U.S., but for Germany most of all.

And the conflicting viewpoints are not there because there is no moderate rightwing conservative counterpart (and this singular of all Western democracies) to the very active Left.
There is no moderate rightwing conservative counterpart because of Germanys past.
(So continually pouring on the guilt complex is not helping much.)

Whats the latest defence of this program now - that it only "suggests" some possibility that the Bush "regime" was behind 9/11 ( cue sinister Darth Vader music - Cheney as Palpatine )

The standard indefensible defense yet again

To all brain dead people - it is not ok to suggest that the Bush admin may have been behind 9/11

It is simply not ok

Any more than it is ok to suggest that there may not have really been a Holocaust

"what, I am just saying this is one possibility - and look at "24" - huh, huh"
Brain Dead Euro Lefty


Freedom of speach ( another gift from the USA to the German people ) allows any idiot to stand on a soap box - or start a website today - and propoagate such nonsense

Responsible media has an obligation not to promote such nonsense

State Run media that picks your pockets every year to stay on the air has some responsibility as well

To use such a tragedy for entertainment is revolting when it is not made perfectly clear who is evil and who is innocent

( hint - OBL and minions are the evil ones - no nuance please )

The only 9/11 related film I care to see is one where we go after the terrorists and kill them

From Randlose:

"This is one of the most pathetic posts I have ever seen. Refering to a tatort as political commentary. Painfully sad."

You can tell Randlose et. al. have their backs on the mat when they start coming up with this kind of stuff. Compare it with, for example, Eric Svane's well-reasoned post above, which Randlose and his pals don't even attempt to address. They're afraid that if they actually try to debate the issue they'll get hammered, and they're right.

Some quick google results:

An interview with the author of the movie, Christian Jeltsch (in pdf).

Obviously, he was aware of the problems with this topic:

"There is the chance to put your foot into your mouth very quickly..."

Correct :-).

Two more excerpts:

"[People who cling to conspiracy theories] to a great part have a great load of problems in their personal life and then escape to theories like these."

"In the best case, there will be a discussion in the end: '...did she lie or did she tell the truth. ' "

And, two rather unenthusiastic reviews of the movie:

FR
viva

From the latter:

"[The girl says that 9/11 results from a conspiracy of US politicians etc.] An absurdity, not heard for the first time. "

Just for the record: While the 9/11 conspiracy theories have become quite popular in Germany as result of internet and book publications (there were a lot, this time not Michael Moore but Mathias Bröckers, Andreas von Bülow and half a dozen others), the mainstream media completely refused to take them serious and even undertake the effort to prove their allegations wrong, but rather ignore or simply denounce it very categorically as crap. Your beloved "Spiegel" was on the forefront of that treatment and became the No. 1 hate object for these people. Unfortunately, this media attitude was not very convincing for those who tend to believe in these theories and has just made them stronger - what could be a better proof than official denial and ignorance? And where are the parts of the big Boeing in the small whole in the Pentagon? And why did the WTC collapse look like an explosion? And why does nobody answer those questions? :-)
The "Tatort" which indeed played on this ticket, was in so far really very untypical for the 9/11 conspiracies' treatment in German media. There had been one documentary in this line before on WDR (Akte 9/11 it was called), and it caused a lot of trouble and anger inside ARD and was never aired again.
BTW, it was a really bad Tatort, boring and confused.

@Rofe:

Can't the rest of these damn heathens see that they're gonna have a WalMart in their neighborhood eventually, so it may as well be soon. Then we can all blacken some slabs o' beef, guzzle Bud and watch Nascar together.

Rofe, my man, the thickness of the ice you are treading on is measured in microns. You have just touched the nerve that threads through a whole lot of American politics. Here's the thing: For all of the American Left's talk about respect for different cultures, the one ethnic group in the U.S. that it is still not only legal but socially acceptable to be predjudiced against is Southerners. (To a considerable extent, this includes Southern blacks.) Some years ago, I was watching a comedy show on cable, and the comic decided to score some cheap points with his L.A. audience by picking a Southern city to make fun of. By random choice, I'm sure, he picked my hometown of Huntsville, Alabama. The comedy from there considered of the usual schtick -- how many trailers there were in town with a big number 3 painted on the side, how many people over the age of 20 stil had their teeth, and so on.

It was quite obvious that he had never actually been here. Jump to last week, and a commenter over at JustOneMinute was doing the same thing -- a New York snob making fun of Alabama and Arkansas, places that he clearly had never been to from what he wrote. So I decided to do something about it. I actually tried to write to that comedian. I found out the name of his management company and wrote them a very polite letter, suggesting that he might want to come to Huntsville for a visit and see if any of it looked like anything in his routine. I even offered to put him up at my house and show him around town myself. All I ever got back was a form letter from the management company.

So here's the thing. Yeah, we have a few Wal-Marts here. We also have several Targets. Now Target is a mega-retailer, on exactly the same scale as Wal-Mart. But Target flies under the Left's anti-business radar; they are spared all of the crap that Wal-Mart has to take on a daily basis. Why is that? Let's check as to where the two companies have their respective headquarters:

Target: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Wal-Mart: Bentonville, Arkansaa

Notice a pattern? Now I'm not saying that the Left should be giving Target grief. What the left should be doing is leaving both Target and Wal-Mart alone. Nonetheless, the fact that they pick on one and give the other a pass, well, do you see a pattern here? If not, check the red state / blue state map.

Now, as for the rest:
* I've been known to blacken a slab of ribs. But it takes forever on the grill. You have to cook ribs slowly. The only restaraunt ribs I like are Tony Roma's, and unfortunately they don't have one around here. So ribs are generally reserved for holidays.
* I can't stand Bud. Or Miller, or any of its monkey-piss imitators. Give me a good German ale any day of the week. Or Dutch. Or British. Or, heck, even a Dos Equis or Negra Modela (Mexican ales, quite good actually). There are actually lots of good microbrews in the U.S., but most of them are hard to get here. Sam Adams used to make an ale called Triple Malt, but it seems to have disappeared. Their Cream Stout is good.
* NASCAR was more fun back in the days of Bobby Allison, Richard Petty, David Pearson, and Cale Yarborough. Too many of today's drivers are whiny-ass prima donnas who couldn't make a pass on the outside if their lives depended on it. And the cars aren't in any way "stock" anymore, and the rules have pretty much turned it into a spending contest. Whoever has the most money wins. These days, I much prefer Indy cars. (I also have a secret fetish for sports-car racing, but I try not to admit that in public.)

And, oh-yeah-by-the-way, I'm currently typing this in an office in the building where the International Space Station's U.S. Lab and airlock were built, and before that it was used for building Shuttle prototype external tanks, and before that it was a Saturn 5 hardware integration and checkout facility. I'm a senior-level engineer with a large aerospace company, hoping to make associate tech fellow in the next year or two. I wrote most of the software for the most advanced space payload control and data system that has ever flown (lost on STS-107, unfortunately), and I did most of the early network design work for the control center where ISS science ops are now controlled. Yes, this is all in Alabama -- and we have a bunch of Germans to thank for it.

So now, what was your point... Oh yeah, I remember. Yes, it's true that there are certain people in America who believe in all kinds of conspiracies, ranging from the Bush family being behind 9/11, to the moon landings being faked, to Elvis being assassinated by the CIA because he had been in contact with space aliens who had technology that would make everyone filthy rich but that mean ol' Air Force doesn't want people to have it. There are also people in America who believe the entire world's economy is controlled by a small cabal of Jews. The point is, these people are the lunatic fringe; they are a vanishingly small fraction of the population. Would it surprise you to find out that a substantial fraction of this lunatic fringe lives and works in Hollywood? That's what explains the movies you named, none of which did well I'll note.

So the question is: these beliefs exist in America, but they reside in a very small and largely inconsequential segment of the population. How widespread are they in Germany? I'm not asking to be sarcastic, I'm asking because I don't know. I do know this: the next time you decide you want to do the Leftist-hip thing and rip on Southerners... come here for a visit first.

Dave - well this is one New Yorker without animus toward the good folks of Huntsville :)

After all the innuendo, insinuation, and invective that I've read over the past two months in these comments regarding the pathetic state of Germany (from Helian, poquemahone, PacRim Jim, et al), I'd really like know what's up with Germany in your minds. Seriously, just what do you think is going on here ?

Morally bankrupt, soon to be economically bankrupt, and apparently intent on the overthrow of the United States of America ?

You want to take offense at an offensive TV show and make it the poster child for every ill that you attribute to the left / socialists / collectivists or whatever the bogeyman of the day is ? Have at it. It certainly proves your point of ____ what ?

That Germans weren't worth saving from Soviet domination ? I've heard it here. That Germans are essentially all Hitlerjugend barely camouflaged by vacations in Phuket or Ibiza or West Palm Beach ? I've heard it here. That Germans really are just national socialists - or Soviet Stalinists (which, by the way, are one in the same) - I've heard it here.

If I understand the underlying point of this site correctly, it's that German media has a palpable anti-American bent. If that's the point, I agree. So what ? You can list a dozen reasons why Germans have a love / hate relationship with America and most of 'em are completely understandable. But what is your bottom line ? That some evil cabal is working within Germany (and every other country outside the US) to bring us to our knees ? Sounds mighty apocalyptic if you ask me.

Reading here I get the impression that there must be one worldview out there that's truly the one and only acceptable worldview, and any leftists, Democrats, or happy to sit in a cafe for two hours rather than snarf a coffee from McDs Eurosnobs who don't toe the line aren't by definition worth a plug nickel. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Germany is not bankrupt, morally, economically, or otherwise. Germany has a major transition on the horizon but I'll bet Germany works it out - in the German context and not the American context. Just like America works out its problems in the American context.

Grade school conclusion, I know, but it's not even that complicated. What else would one expect ?

Cheers,

Note from David: Rofe, calm down. We happen to hold an opinion on German-American affairs that's not yours. Too bad. Still, we keep running this blog, if you don't mind.
Summarazing - as you do - everything that's written in this blog as postings or comments to posting as if it were the opinion of one single person doesn't make sense. I trust your understanding that I don't bother to respond to this allegation.
Since you developed the habit of co-blogging and permanently critizing this blog's concept, may I kindly ask you to read our comment policy rules (link in right column)? We don't want co-blogging here, and we don't invite discussions about this blog's concept in our comment sections.

Given your dissatisfaction with this blog - there is always the option of visiting other blogs or, even better, starting your own.

Bush!?


I thought it was the Jews....

; )

"""I see your point. This one program, taken in the larger context of an all-encompassing German media bias against the U.S., becomes much easier for a public, deprived of conflicting viewpoints, to embrace unquestioningly. If true it is a depressing state of affairs for the U.S., but for Germany most of all."""

Exactly! Swede, you put it all in a nutshell.

The German mind has had nearly 4 years of preparation, which makes such conspiracy theories that much more believable--and, with a 'Tatort' audience of 7 million, that much more of a problem.

Cousin Dave,

I must have hit a nerve, but you'll have to take my word for it that my shot had not a thing to do with the South. (In fact, being from the western Pennsylvania rust belt myself, WalMart, Bud and backyard barbeques seem pretty generic. Put some kielbassa on with the steaks, of course, and some Iron in the ice with the Bud. Nascar's quintessentially American now, too, even with its Southern roots.)

My point was that typical America doesn't have to be the goal for the rest of the world (and wishing Stalinism on those who resist is pretty extreme).

Cheers,

About the belief in conspiracies: According to an opinion poll, published in July 2003 by Die Zeit, 19 percent of the Germans believed that the American government ordered 9/11.This belief was more prevalent among Germans from the former German Democratic Republic (29 percent) than among those in the West (16 percent).
See http://www.broeckers.com/GuardianWeekly.htm.
I found these numbers by chance in an interesting article by Robert Wistrich ('European antisemitism reinvents itself', American Jewish Committee, March 2005).
Astonishing numbers, if it's really true that 19% of all Germans sincerely believed that the American Government ordered 9/11. Not quite the lunatic fringe...

I recommend to follow the link, mentioned in my comment above. You will find also this:
The same poll (Die Zeit, July 2003) revealed that almost 31% of Germans aged under 30 do not rule out the possibility that the attacks may have been organised by Washington.
I think this answers Swede's question: "can we not at least assume that most of those Germans watching can tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction?". No, Swede, unfortunately, we cannot.


to put things back into perspective:

http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/media/455358.html

@Rofe

>> “After all the innuendo, insinuation, and invective that I've read over the past two months in these comments regarding the pathetic state of Germany (from Helian, poquemahone, PacRim Jim, et al)”

You can prop up straw men and knock them down until you’re blue in the face. Go ahead, accuse us of innuendo, insinuation, invective, whatever makes you feel better. Just don’t expect anyone here to be impressed by your name calling. Are you trying to impress us with your hysteria, threadbare virtuous indignation, and attempts to counter our arguments by demonizing us? I’ve seen it all before. I’m not impressed. Want to impress me? Try actually debating the issues raised on this blog for a change.

>> “I'd really like know what's up with Germany in your minds. Seriously, just what do you think is going on here?”

You asked for my two cents worth, so here it is. What’s going on in Germany is a visceral and entirely typical reaction to a given world situation. What we’re seeing is a classic example of the amity-enmity complex described by Lorenz, Ardrey, and others. It has a lot more to do with biology and innate predispositions than reason. It is not limited to Germans, as it is a natural human response to a given situation. We’re seeing the same thing in many other countries. The Germans are not uniquely evil, or more morally reprehensible than Americans, French, or any other people. They are acting the way human beings act because of their fundamental nature. However, human beings also have minds. They should be able to grasp the fact that what feels comfortable and natural, such as, in this case, hatred of America, is not necessarily desirable, rationally justifiable, or acceptable. That is why I contribute to this blog. I hope, in my own small way, that I may be able to wake a few people up and get them to switch their minds off autopilot.

You accuse me of being anti-German. Nothing could be further from the truth. My roots are in Germany, and my ancestors sleep there. I would love to see a strong, free, patriotic and self-confident Germany, whose people are more like Grimmelshausen and Goethe than the embittered, resentful, scornful, cynical lot so many of them have become today. Unfortunately, I doubt I will see that Germany in my lifetime.

>>”You want to take offense at an offensive TV show and make it the poster child for every ill that you attribute to the left / socialists / collectivists or whatever the bogeyman of the day is ? Have at it. It certainly proves your point of ____ what?”

After the German experience with Nazism, after the Russian experience with Communism, and after 9/11, how is it that you still don’t get it? How is it that you can’t seem to grasp the fact that hate and the promotion of hate has consequences, and those consequences are bad for both the hated and the haters?

>>”If I understand the underlying point of this site correctly, it's that German media has a palpable anti-American bent. If that's the point, I agree. So what?”

Your own post answers this question. Based on your own arguments, you’re wasting a lot of time taking issue with what you consider a palpable “anti-German” bent by people who comment and contribute to this blog. In your own words, “So what?” Obviously, you know the answer to your own question, or you wouldn’t wasting your time here. Or do you think hatred is just fine, as long as your ox isn’t gored?

>>”Reading here I get the impression that there must be one worldview out there that's truly the one and only acceptable worldview, and any leftists, Democrats, or happy to sit in a cafe for two hours rather than snarf a coffee from McDs Eurosnobs who don't toe the line aren't by definition worth a plug nickel. Sorry, but I don't buy it.”

Nonsense! Both sides are guilty of demonizing their opponents to some extent, but the modern left is incomparably more guilty of it than the right. They do it automatically, almost as a matter of course. The arrogance and institutionalized bias of the media plays a major role in promoting this kind of “debate.” Leftists can see the sliver in their enemy’s eye, but don’t notice the beam in their own. While the right has been engaging the arguments of its opponents, the left has been rushing for the moral high ground. As a result, the left today has lost its credibility, and is morally defunct. That is, as far as I’m concerned, a very regrettable state of affairs, because, in spite of your preconceived notions, I am anything but a hard core conservative. The left will only recover its credibility when it recovers its tolerance.

>>”Germany is not bankrupt, morally, economically, or otherwise. Germany has a major transition on the horizon but I'll bet Germany works it out - in the German context and not the American context. Just like America works out its problems in the American context.”

This is another of your straw man arguments. I have never argued that Germany is morally, economically, or otherwise “bankrupt.” I suspect I am a little more worried about Germany than you are, particularly in view of her low birth rate and the cultural idiosyncrasies noted above. I very much hope you are justified in your optimism.

@Pogue: My apologies, no offense intended. There are a few snobs in NY, and there are a few idiots in Alabama who still want to re-fight the Civil War. I have no use for either group. I've spent some time in NY and LA; they are both nice places. I prefer to live where I am, but that's just my preference.

(As a matter of fact, my wife and I were in New York about six weeks before 9/11. I took her into the lobby of the WTC tower that had the big sculpture in the center (which one was that)? One TV image that really sticks out in my mind was that one of the networks had managed to set up a camera in that lobby, looking at that sculpture, just minutes before the tower collapsed. I find it sad that seeing that sculpture sitting amid the smoke, debris, and panicking people will be my last memory of it.
We almost stayed at the WTC Marriott, but just before I booked it I found a better deal at a Courtyard uptown.)

@Cousin Dave
>>the lobby of the WTC tower that had the big sculpture in the center (which one was that)?

North Tower. And I can vouch for Huntsville. I learned to waterski there. Wonderful place, wonderful people. BTW, you may know me as 'grayp' on LGF.

@Rofe
>>. Put some kielbassa on with the steaks, of course, and some Iron in the ice

IRON CITY?! Yuck. Monongahela wizz (Pgh girl)

>>>>”If I understand the underlying point of this site correctly, it's that German media has a palpable anti-American bent. If that's the point, I agree. So what?”

It's not the point, it's the symptom. Europe in general and Germany in particular bear responsibility for the horrors of the 20th century. And in great part those horrors came about due to what I call 'false history', e.g., Germany lost WWI because of the Jews. This dynamic continues and is very evident in German media. One distortion and/or lie after another. THAT is the point. IMAO.

David,

I didn't realize that I'd run afoul of your comments policy, but I see that I have. (In fact, I hadn't read the policy until today.) My oversight, my mistake and my apologies.

Actually, I do agree with the overriding premise of the site (if I understand it correctly) and my comments above had far more to do with the comment section than they did with original postings. However, and this is what's frustrated me over and over, I don't understand your opinion on German-American affairs.

With the election coming up, I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity for me to figure it out on my own. Until then, thank you for your hospitality.

Cheers,

Helian,

Don't want to dodge your questions, but do you seriously think that today's Germany is really in the approximate neighborhood of German Naziism or Soviet Communism ?

Anti-Americanism / anti-capitalism was much stronger in Germany back in the early '80s and Germany weathered it then. Yes, trends today are worrying, but the election campaign and a new chancellor (like the early '80s) would be my optimistic bet for improvement.

Cheers,

The German Abendzeitung (a tabloid with leftist leanings) felt the need to "explain" the Tatort (obviously most people were confused with the open ending). Unfortunately the explanation doesn't help much ("expression of insecurity people felt after 9/11 blabla).
Of course the Tatort deliberately pushed for ambiguity, leaving it up to that girl (deranged? drugs?) to express the CIA-did-it-and-is-after-me paranoia.

But I think David is absolutely right with his interpretation. Of course you can't state the "Bush did it" openly, so you use a "backdoor" and take cover behind the "oh, but it's just a fictional character" after all.

The conspiracy people usually don't say: "Bush did it." They bring up confusing facts, smokescreens, irrelevant inconsistencies with the "official version" and then ask "questions".

That's exactly how the Tatort did it. And I hate to pay for such crap.

I think you should understand Rofe that the people who comment on this site actually do like Germany and Europe -

We care about what is happening there - some of us live or lived there, some of us have family connections

We don't enjoy "bashing" Germany or Germans - we just, if I may be so bold to speak for many, want to raise an alarm

The German media-elite is blatently anti-American

The German public is unually receptive to crackpot theories when these have any "blame America" angle to them

I for one don't understand why these two facts are so

What did America do to Germany to cause such dislike?

Why do Germans find common cause with the Palistinian terrorists and Iraqi "insurgents" more than they do with Israel or the US?

Why is George Bush so UNIVERSALLY hated in Germany?

What has he done to Hans in Stutgart and Inge in Hannover?

Maybe a little name and shame would be a good thing

Maybe if more Americans learned about things like this program on state funded German TV that lent credence to such a theory there would be reprecussions

Maybe the German people would benefit from having the producers come out and explain why they felt this was appropriate fare

But none of this will happen will it - unless stories like this are made public and hopefully get picked up by FOX news ( cue sinister music )

@joaninho,
I followed the link in your comment. Is this, as you said "to put things back into perspective"?
"Immerhin, auf einer weiteren Ebene konnte man diesen "Tatort" auch ganz anders deuten, nämlich als Satire auf die leidigen Verschwörungstheorien".
If I understand the Berliner Zeitung correctly, "Tatort" is a brilliant satire on conspiracy theories and as such it will actually help to diminish the belief in conspiracy theories. It will serve as an eye opener!
Sorry, I don't buy it.

@ helian

good show
I wish I were so eloquent

@ rofe

I disagree on your observation of there being more anti--americanism in the 80s.
( I have been here a long time and I saw the 80s ), and although anti-americanism has been ever present among the Left, and the Left had a larger base then than they do now, I have never seen anti-americanism so widely accepted, mean and malicious and propagated by the media as it is today.

@ Querdenker

anybody called by that name should NOT be paying GEZ dues.
stop paying
stop watching

@Irena Mitzka

What you said.

I just wanted to expand a little on Kees Rudolph's post. The poll Kees referred to was also contained in an article in 'Der Spiegel' 08 September 2003. Title of article: 'Panoptikum des Absurden' (unfortunately I can't post a link because it's a premium archive.)

1. "Glauben Sie, aus den TV- und Presseberichten die volle Wahrheit über die Anschläge vom 11. September 2001 erfahren zu haben?"

Do you believe you have experienced the whole truth about 911 from the media?

Total Yes 27% No 68%
Age:
under 30 19% 78%
30 to 49 22% 77%
50 or over 36% 56%

2. "Glauben Sie, dass die US-Regierung die Anschläge selbst in Auftrag gegeben hat?"

Do you believe that the US government ordered the attacks?

Total Yes 19% No 72%
Age:
under 30 31% 62%
30 to 49 20% 73%
50 or over 12% 77%

*if not equal to 100%, then "did not know"*

Anyone see a pattern here? What does this say about FUTURE German-American relationships?

Nearly 1 out of 3 under 30 believe Bush did it! And still 1 out of 5 from 30 to 49! 7% from each group weren't sure.

Does anybody still not understand why this 'Tatort' episode, in combination with other numerous examples of media slant, is a problem?

OT:

Now, we know why John Kerry didn't file a Form 180 to release his navy records. The records revealed his grades at Yale. They were worse than GWB's! Ha! JFKerry had 4 D's in his freshman year.

Kerry had the nerve to say "I can't believe I'm losing to this idiot."

James - I think that was on SNL when Dukakis said that about Bush Snr

It was hilarious

As for Kerry - is the rest of his 1080 information coming out as well

Pogue, I don't know about the SNL episode, apparently Dukakis and Kerry had the same writers. Limbaugh always says that the left never changes its playbook. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they both used the same line. I'm not so sure such comments aren't 'slipped' for tactical reasons. Aaah! Maybe I'm just paranoid.


"""Mr Kerry, now in sessions with a speech coach, grew increasingly frustrated. After a faltering press conference by Mr Bush in April, and with Iraq in turmoil, Mr Kerry exclaimed: “I can’t believe I’m losing to this idiot”. """

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1344943,00.html

BTW, great analysis of 'Tatort' at Dawson's Danube.

"""As for Kerry - is the rest of his 1080 information coming out as well"""

Don't know. I'm waiting for Limbaugh to update his site. He usually links to his sources.

(Sorry for getting too far OT)

@James W

"in combination with other numerous examples of media slant"

For the 100th time: The German MSM did NOT endorse any of the conspiracy theories (cf Bernd´s comment from 4:02pm). Probably the Spiegel´s campaign against these theories was indeed a reaction to the survey you mention.

The "combination" you´re trying to construct does not exist.

OT Kerry:
Yeah, but get this: The records also show that the some of the same swift boat vets for "truth" that criticized Kerry had commended him back then.
Why on earth did he waste this ammunition?

Irena, I'm not sure if you understand the GEZ system properly.
You HAVE to pay, whether you watch ARD/ZDF or not.
Owning a TV is enough.
And not every Tatort is bad btw

@ fuchur

""For the 100th time: The German MSM did NOT endorse any of the conspiracy theories (cf Bernd´s comment from 4:02pm). ""

I wasn't referring to the MSM endorsing or not endorsing conspiracy theories. I was talking more about the general anti-American and anti-Bush slant that DOES exist in the German media. There are 2 years, and counting, of examples of this slant archived right hear at Medienkritik. How much more convenience can you ask for?

""Probably the Spiegel´s campaign against these theories was indeed a reaction to the survey you mention. ""

Campaign? I know of an article. Maybe there were a few more in the media. But, was there really a 'campaign' by the German media to debunk several best selling conspiracy theory books?


OT:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student?mode=PF

Bush's grades at Yale? 77

Kerry's grades at Yale? 76

And W has the higher eye cue!!!

http://www.dailypundit.com/newarchives/2005/04/from_the_emailb_2.php

To be fair, young people believe all sorts of strange things. I am only 37, and think about the strange things I beleived even 10 years ago.

And to be fair, think of all those in the US who believe that the CIA/FBI/Mossad/Rand Corporation/Cuban exiles killed Kennedy, and not disturbed communist Lee Oswald.

Or who believe that FDR or Winston Churchill had foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor.

@Rofe

>>"Don't want to dodge your questions, but do you seriously think that today's Germany is really in the approximate neighborhood of German Naziism or Soviet Communism ?"

I did not say, nor did I wish to imply that today's Germany is in the approximate neighborhood of Naziism or Soviet Communism. The point I was trying to make is that there are consequences to the promotion of hatred, and sometimes those consequences can be very bad.

Querdenker

I never payed any GEZ. The GEZ sent me a letter once about 15 years ago and asked me if I own a TV or radio, I checked the NO, signed it and sent it back. Never heard of them again.
The GEZ also has no right to enter your house or apartment to find out if you own a TV set, just don't let them in. The police won't help them, cause the GEZ is not a government organisation. Not paying GEZ is not like cheating on your tax filings, it is just a " Ordnungswidrigkeit" not a " Straftat". It's like parking in a no parking aerea.

@Querdenker: "I tried to watch it but found the plot so confusing and absurd that I fell asleep and when I woke up the girl was walking around on a Moroccan square and that was it.

So I missed the final truth about 9/11."

The TRUTH was out there and you slept thru it? Unbelievable! You could have enlightened us all. ;^)

Lampshades.made.from.human.skin.Auschwitz.Cyklon B.gold.fillings.extermination.Bergen.Belson.Jews.gas chamber.Treblinka.mass murder.Dachau.starvation.medical experiments on live humans.Buchenwald.torture.genocide.

If you squareheads are smearing Mr. Bush in hopes of sponging away some of your brutal, subhuman history, it ain't gonna happen. The German people have forgotten but we haven't.

I think we are being too quick here. We should all wait for the official White House response to this Tatort.

What about the fact that in every single international rating the US Healthcare System, overall, is rated below that of Germany and France.
I think that is an assertion that needs proof ... and not some link to a silly article in a news paper, but the actual study.

@ Arty

calm down, you are on the wrong track.

@ GEZ

the TV sales people I know confirmed my experience that those who are paying got scared into it, and the others don´t pay, watch anyway and don´t give a damn.
anybody new here or need info :

http://www.gez-abschaffen.de/

Tatort is always PC, same plots, same class of bad guys, same group of good guys every time.
I tell you..
Years ago ......
well ok,

even bread tasted better years ago

@Cousing Dave: Everyone I've known, who's lived in Alabama loved it, even confirmed Northerners.

On your Target (Dayton-Hudson company) vs Wal-Mart comparison, Mark Dayton is a liberal, moonbat Senator from Minnesota. He's the one, who closed his office at the Senate Office Building and moved his people out of there out of fear of Anthrax. He's going to be a one term Senator, because he's become a big joke. The Dayton's fund a bunch of leftwing groups, so it part, it's all about the money.

@Randlose - re the WHO statistics - don't believe everything you read - esp from "Global" organizations staffed from front desk to Chairman's seat with unreconstructed leftists

( see Gitmo is the new Gulag for reference )

I always laugh at these comparisons from such organizations

Whats that now - the WHO finds government run health systems superior to a free market model

NO - how can that be :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the oft cited "fact" that the infant mortality rate in China and Cuba is lower than that in the USA

A "fact" I read in the NY Times just months ago

I mean, c'mon now - how absurd can one get - but people just say it and if the WHO backs it up - well, it must be true eh

Just last night I saw Diane Sawyer "report" that the US gives a measly 1% in government foriegn aid

I should at least give her credit for noting this was government aid - but really

A reporter at a high school paper could easily learn that private and religious contributions to fight world poverty et all are a massive proportion of US aid to the rest of the world

Simply put - Europeans expect their governments to provide foriegn aid - and so this is the main vehicle for such aid in Europe - say 95% of it

While in the US you have a split where the Gov't gives some - say 40% - while private and religious charities give the rest

If any German religious charities are giving a lot please let me know - I normally doubled the attendance at any German church I ever visited

So you see when you ONLY count the Gov't aid - you get a nice skewed perspective - you get the numbers that PROVE what you want them to prove - and why report the whole truth when your INTENT is to demonstrate that the US doesn't give enough

This is media BIAS in the US MSM by the way

Here's a little advice - statistics can be churned out to support ANYTHING ( 72% of people know that ;) )

I don't give a rats ass what the WHO says about US healthcare

I know for a fact that my friends father would be dead waiting for a bypass operation if he was still living in the the UK last year

Fortunately for him he came to the US in 1988 and LIVES under our 54th place health care system

People in the US would be quite astonished if they knew what germans think about the americans in general (not only about Bush and his voters). For a steadily growing number of germans think that most of the americans are arrogant and just plain dumb. A big blame for this can be given to the media. Its amazing to see in the TV news here more bids (especially negative ones) about america than you see news about germany or europe.


For gods sake people, it is a FICTIONAL CRIME SHOW. And you talk about the left having trouble distinguishing between fact and fiction. --

And we never went to the moon, did we? It seems about 30% of your youth believe that.

----


tell you what randlose. Have Germany take in as many illegals proportionally as we do and then take a look at the long-term numbers.

Randlose - first of all - there is no such word as "refutal"

Its Refutation ya dummy ;)

From Dictionary.com

1 entry found for refutal.
ref·u·ta·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rfy-tshn) also re·fut·al (r-fytl)
n.
The act of refuting.
Something, such as an argument, that refutes someone or something.


So please spare me any further "can't even spell" comments - I don't worry about minor spelling errors while blogging

Frankly I think people that do are rather anal retentive and on the losing end of any arguement


I think the "point" you were making above is that the German health care system is superior to that of the USA

your proof was...the WHO said so!

Brilliant arguement - what a classic case of building a position with facts and accurate comparisons and....

Oh wait - you did none of that - if the WHO says its true - then to you its true

Sure makes life easy for you I am sure - no bothersome checking of facts for you - no siree bob - you got better things to do

Look - I provided two other specific examples where the whole "see, the statistics show the US is worse at ______ " - I explained how these numbers are routinely thrown around - and explained why they are completely wrong

Cuba does NOT have a lower infant mortality than the USA

The US does NOT give less in foriegn aid than other developed countries

Yet these "facts" are often thrown out there - because organizations like the WHO come out with them

And people who either want to believe them or are too lazy/ignorant to do their own fact checking simply repeat them ad-naseum

And when they are confronted by this information - they often attack the one who points this out and use invented words in doing so I might add :)


I am sure you simply worship the very water that organizations like the WHO walk on - but having directly experienced the UK national health care system - and understanding its not all that different from the French or German models and the US health care system I really don't care what the WHO "ranks" us respectively

frankly the WHO doesn't like anything except for Government run health care systems

Of course they ranked France #1 - wasnt that where 15000 elderly died in the empty hospitals last summer?

And Morocco comes in at 29 - 8 places ahead of the USA

Tell ya what - for my next major surgery I am off to Morocco - screw NYU Medical Center

( Cuba is also there at 39 - we barely scraped by them eh )

Let me just say this - these statistics are worthless - they acheieve an aim intended for the top 50 countries and help to "prove" the US has a bad system

We don't believe in Socialized medicine - live with it

"Just one example, Dwayne and all ami's"

Randlose, just a sidenote: It's a sign of quite some ignorance when you think it's only evil Amis here who do not agree with you, weißt Du? Und Ami's ist keine Pluralform, weder im Englischen noch im Deutschen - nachdem Du ja offenbar so viel Wert auf korrekte Rechtschreibung legst. Dieser Fehler scheint in letzter Zeit richtig in Mode zu kommen, warum ist mir schleierhaft. Vielleicht Spätfolgen der überflüssigen Rechtschreibreform.

Of course Randlose - having the government run the healthcare is a bad idea

The government runs everything badly

Do you remember what it was like before telecom de-regulation

Can you imagine - you'd still be waiting for the internet in Germany

The WHO rankings don't mean a thing to me

There are a socialist organization that favors government run health care

They will never come up with any study that finds the US system superior

And it is superior - I don't need any stat's to prove that - I have experience with both

Do you?

""How exactly is your mentioning false (incomplete) charity stats debunking the WHO findings? Or will you let the strawman explain it to me. ""

Randlose, I don't think there's any amount of explaining that will be sufficient for you. I think Pogue made his point quite well. It's no big secret that some organisations do surveys, studies, polls, etc... with their own political agendas in mind. Honestly now, have you never seen a poll that uses loaded questions in order to achieve desired results? Pogue has probably done a lot of research and seen enough examples, as I also have, to convince him that certain organisations like WHO do use such tactics. Is it now Pogue's responsibility to educate you? Why don't you do the work to see if the points Pogue made are true? Are you afraid you might be shocked by what you find?

BTW, I think using real life experiences can also be used to prove a point. For example, there is a safety net in America for people who can't afford health care. I know this because I have family members that use it. My mother is unable to work because of conditions that I will not elaborate on. But, she does receive therapy and up to 7 different medications per day. How does she get this much needed help if the system is so bad?

I'll tell you what. If you really put so much worth on the WHO ranking system, then let me pick out 10 countries that are ranked higher than the USA in health care. When you get seriously ill (which I don't wish upon you), you can choose between one of the 10 countries, or the USA to receive your care. You may not tell us the truth here, but I bet I know which country you would choose.

Randlose, your remind me of some of my friends and familymembers in Germany. Everyone hates the health care system there.
They hate the overcrowded waiting rooms of doctors, lack of care for the elderly, the endless bureaucracy just to get a doctor's appointment. They resent any co-payment. They go to the doctor when they have a sniffle. They get a prescription for
aspirin for gods sake.

Do you know that doctors are called the Gods in White? They are called that because there is a big disconnect between a patient and his doctor. The doctor doesn't have to care because he gets paid no matter what. Yet they insist that the german system is far superior to the american.

Yes, the american system is not perfect but is not as bad as you make it out to be!

I can get an appointment here without waiting for hours. My doctor listens to me very carefully because if I don't like him, I just go to anotherone. There are plenty to chose from. They need me as much as I need them.

While some of the poor don't have health care, they do have access to medical treatment. No hospital can refuse a patient when he goes to the emergency room. There are plenty of free clinics around. Some people just don't want to pay for health care. They rather spent their money on beer or cigarettes.

I get special travel insurance when I go to Germany, including air transportation because God help me if I ever get sick over there without my insurance. I would rather be in an american hospital than a german one.

You talk about some lame statistics, I talk from experience.

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