« Sueddeutsche Zeitung: One-Sided Attack Journalism as News | Main | Germany's Interior Minister Otto Schily: A Rare Pro U.S. Voice in German Politics »

Comments

*sigh*

Apropos the Green Party, I've long said that red + yellow = green. Look it up.

I have an idea for a similar Tatort episode: Some poor guy happens to stumble into a high-brow hair salon, where he sees Schroeder getting his hair dyed. Afterward, he is mercilessly hunted by the BND, which has been ordered to "silence" him.

Otto Schilly is Kommissar, his sister Claudia Roth , who in younger days had an affair ....

A politician who is waking up? One can hope. It doesn't matter the party affiliation as long as they see the value of truth and debating both side of an issue.

This is fiction, right? If PBS or the BBC plays "The Odessa File", should Germans protest it as an unfair representation of facts?

"A German diplomat in Washington said no one in Germany took the plot seriously because it was "pure fiction."
I see. If in Egypt a fictional drama, based on the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', is aired, everyone should be satisfied if an Egyptian diplomat says: "No one in Egypt took the plot seriously because it was "pure Fiction""

"BTW, my suspicion is that the Washington Times actually based this article on our posting. "

You might be on to something.

There´s the "Arab music" thing that Dawson´s Danube pointed out.

But what really makes me suspicious, is that the article also claims that Germans think that the moon landing was faked. This is of course utter nonsense. There may be many urban myths that Germans fall for, but this certainly is not one of them.
I really cannot imagine how anybody could come up with such a stupid and completely unsubstantiated claim - unless, of course, he simply took DL´s word for the truth.
(or: missed the sarcasm from DL?)

"A German diplomat in Washington said no one in Germany took the plot seriously because it was "pure fiction."

This has always been one of the most nonsensical excuses / denial tactics.

It is like showing a violent movie or a porn movie at school or similar and claiming " we just show it so that they can see what they shouldn´t be watching " .

I AM SURE THAT the Washington Times actually based this article on YOURS posting!!!Now You "on the map" especially after the article in WSJ
You can ask them(WT):)

Danke!!!

I've never understood why so many people believe the Apollo missions were fake. Thousands of people worked on the project, and scientists around the world received data broadcast from experiments done on the Moon. A conspiracy demands secrecy, yet not one of the many thousands involved in the project have come forward with The Aweful Truth.

@ fuchur

Lately I had an argument with some guys from my IT department back here in Germany about the faked moonlanding. They are intelligent people, who are quite well informed about world affairs and yet most of them believed this nonsense about the "moon conspiracy" or at least thought it might be possible. Of course 10 people are not representative but if among them 5 or 6 believe this bullshit while 2 or 3 don't have an opinion about it it starts to get scary.

He's definitely been reading Medienkritik and the comment section. There are a lot of similarities. He even talks about the GEZ.

BTW, you were also linked to on Michelle Malkin's blog. She's been interviewed on Fox, Hannity, Rush, Chris Matthews...

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/002657.htm

Note from David: Many thanks for the info. Actually, we noticed it from our ref log, too.

Paul, I've had similar conversations. The topic was especially hot after a show on German TV invited a guest who provided 'proof' that the moon-landing was a hoax. For example: why did the flag 'wave' when there's no wind on the moon. Or, shadows cast on the moon's surface were irregular, indicating that there were stage lights used for photo-ops.

They mentioned it on fox and friends this morning too.

@ James W.

If I remember right the argument started also because we talked about a "documentation" in German TVs 3rd program (of course also GEZ financed) which doubted the Americans had ever been on the moon. And I fear there are many people who believe every ARD/ZDF-documentation.

a quote from fuchur......
"But what really makes me suspicious, is that the article also claims that Germans think that the moon landing was faked. This is of course utter nonsense. There may be many urban myths that Germans fall for, but this certainly is not one of them. "

@fuchur

Hi! I work at the Sternwarte here in Nürnberg and I constantly here from visitors " You know that they didn´t realy land on the moon"
So yes, there are enough idiots here who believe this kind of crap (especialy as long as it´s anti-american).

Take care.

Doug

@ fuchur

I work at the Sternwarte here in Nürnbeerg and I have to here from visitors all the time "but you know that they didn´t realy land on the moon".
Or they´ll set me (since I´m just a stupid Ami) and ask if it´s possible to see the Apollo landing sites. I´ll then patiently explain why it i´sn´t possible and then they´ll spring the trap by saying..."of course it isn´t possible to see them since they aren´t even because the Americans never realy landed on the moon. now sometimes these folks are juast busting my chops. but a lot of the time they are dead serious!

Take care.

Doug

sorry about the double posting. The page wouldn´t reload so i thougfht that the first post was lost.
sorry

Doug

@Doug:

"Hi! I work at the Sternwarte here in Nürnberg and I constantly here from visitors ' You know that they didn´t realy land on the moon'
So yes, there are enough idiots here who believe this kind of crap (especialy as long as it´s anti-american)."

Of course, the really ironic thing is they are dissing their own heritage when they say stuff like this...

Firstly I think this is so obviously a write up of the other thread that Id like to say a big hello to all in Washington at the Times. Its great to see Medienkritik having such a success. Please give them a hat tip in future though as they deserve the praise.;-)

Secondly these conspiracy theories are just classic symptons of the old German problem of anti-Semitism. Always some evil puppet masters behind the scenes and the only difference between the anti-Semitism of the right and the left is how exactly they define this "evil". Warrant for Genocide by Norman Cohn is still the best book on this IMHO. These 9 11 theories are just more proof that anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism are very linked, especially when combined with the statements made by Mr Atta himself about the attack.(Matthias Küntzel) If I look at this ARD production paid for by the GEZ money on prime TV to an audience already saturated on "Bush is evil" type commentaries then I do not see how anybody who reads this site can justify this, its obviously even gone to far for the Greens. I hope all Americans take heart of this when they hear the Kanzler talk about this being a "New Germany" and how it has "learnt from its past" and how it is committed to the "memory of Auschwitz" etc. Anti-Semitism is still a problem in Germany, both from the far right, the far left and also the parliamentary parties.

I think it was Fuchur who originally suggested that the aim of this program was to ridicule / argue against these theories. If this was the case (I do not watch Tatort myself) as some claimed then can i ask how? Was there a whole evening of such programs with debates, psychologists and helplines? And how exactly did they deconstruct anti-Semitism? I would be very interested to know how Tatort managed to do in 1 episode what Adorno and the Frankfurter Schule never achieved. How exactly can TV convince somebody insane and who thinks TV belongs to a "them" that it is not controlled by "them" if the person honestly believes that "they" are evil and out to get him/her. Since the program aired, the asshole who writes "TV und Radio = Judenfunk" all over parts of Berlin in marker pen hasnt stopped. Anti-Semitism cannot be deconstructed and for those whose opinions arent quite set, a Tatort show touching at this is more likely to add to the social acceptance of such theories in society than make them "uncool".

As for the man on the moon theories I actually find them amusing. Although anti-Semites love every type of conspiracy the moon one itself doesnt have any "evil" undertones. I even bet that at the time in the space race and the cold war there were doubts whether it would work. The prestige of the moon was important but the real race was to see who had the biggest rocket. The Russians were ahead in the space race. The man on the moon was the big risk play to get ahead after trailing and if it had gone wrong (and lets not forget the opportunities for a balls up were a plenty) then the USA would have looked bad. In fact Its not all that unlikely that somebody did sit there in intelligence and say "hell why dont we just tell the world we have been there successfully. Nobody would know!"..... but of course they did go and they did succeed and safely. ----- there is a difference between what is just a good pub conspiracy story and a conspiracy theory. One is told but rarely believed and the other is believed but rarely told

Saw a BBC documentary on the lunar stuff last week. Basically took the conspiracists' theories apart one by one. Why the flag 'waved' (extra springy flagpole), why no stars appeared in the background of photos (film not sensitive enough), etc.

Interestingly, all the conspiracists interviewed were American. If one tended toward 'the BBC is anti-American' thinking, one might have some evidence given how the subjects came across.

Geez, it all just gets mixed up, doesn't it ?

Cheers,

Many Germans think, for example, that the 1969 moon landing was faked, and a poll published in the weekly Die Zeit showed that 31 percent of Germans younger than 30 "think that there is a certain possibility that the U.S. government ordered the attacks of 9/11."

Both claims are a bit misleading. Firstly, moon conspiracy theories seem to be quite popular in the US media, too. (Though the claim that large numbers of Americans agree with them is debunked on the website provided here. I don't know about any German poll on that issue.)
Secondly, the Zeit-poll was taken in 2003, at a time when conspiracy books from Mathias Bröckers, Andreas von Bülow, Gerhard Wisnewski and Thierry Meyssan were bestsellers and 9/11-nonsense became fashionable here in Germany. This might also have to do with the fact that there first was little discussion of these books and the claims their authors made in the German media. But people buying such books out of couriosity normally do not have the capabilities to figure out wether it is true or false what they read.
However, you can be quite sure that, given the fact that the times of the 9/11 conspiracy boom are over, this number would be lower if the same poll would be taken today.

I don't think the moon landing conspiracy is anti-american per se

I spoke to a fireman in NY who earnesly believed this - and had hooked most of his firehouse into the whole crackpot idea by showing them a video

Same nonsense - waving flag, no stars in the pictures

I asked a few questions - but penetrating this type of thing is next to impossible

Every angle that can't be explained is because "they" were in on it

I wonder what % of Germans think Kennedy was killed by the CIA?

Because lots of American's do

@Doughnut Boy Andy,
"Secondly these conspiracy theories are just classic symptoms of the old German problem of anti-Semitism."
Though anti-Semitism is indeed an old problem, as an old problem it's not a specifically German problem. Until approximately 1916 anti-Semitism was definitely more virulent in France, in Austria or in Russia (to name but a few countries) than in Germany. I would say: insomuch anti-semitism and the related belief in conspiracy-theories is an old problem, it's a problem not limited to Germany.
Of course nothing good can be said about present antisemitism in Germany, let alone the dark episode 33-45. Given its recent history, it's perhaps especially regrettable and disquieting that anti-Semitism is still a problem in Germany, of all places, given its pretence that it has learned from its past. Nevertheless, it should not be overlooked that today antisemitism (often in Palestinism or anti-Israelism disguise) is just as strong and probably stronger in for instance Britain, Spain, Greece and probably also France, not to mention Arab countries. In Britain moreover it is not limited to the far right and the far left. As a Dutch citizen I can testify that the relationship between the far left, anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism and Palestinism exists in the Netherlands just as well. And let us not forget the anti-Semitism within the European countries among the numerous citizens of Arab or Nord-African descent, probably more wide-spread and virulent than among the autochtonous population. They are usually also very strong believers in the wildest conspiracy theories. So, though I agree completely with your analysis of the mechanisms involved, I have some difficulty in seeing this as a specifically German problem. It would be fine if it was a problem limited to only Germany, but I'm afraid it is not.

IIRC, according to the introduction by Alexandre Adler to a documentary debunking the "moon landing are faked" (a mockumentary, actually, very funny and well done) shown on Arte, this particular conspiracy theory is quite present in the arab world, and is even activelly propaged.

The reason is that the landings HAVE to be faked, for allah's sake... because an hadith supposedly says that "islam will exist until the man walk on the surface of the moon". Funny if true.

I've recently read a very interesting book, "Les nouveaux imposteurs" by Antoine Vitkine, a froggie, just like me :-), and its main point was how conspiracy theory slowly made its way into the mainstream of the left's consiciuousness, and how it was a worrying development both for the health of democracy and for the left itself; it also pointed out the convergences between the far-right, the muslim intellectuals, and this conspiracy-oriented leftist worldview... the new Ennemy being the evil zionists (or ugly americans, isn't it the same thing?).

Btw, has someone ever noted how similar is the traditional "maurras-like" antisemitism and modern anti-americanism : a race only interested in money, of cowards warmongers, physically unfit and degenerated, which rule the world through undeserved, stolen power,...

Too bad, I LOVE conspiracy theory, especially the PCT (paranoid conspiracy theory, with hollow Earth, lizard overlords, Demons masquerading as ufo,...), but I have to admit it is frequently not very "jew-friendly", to say the least... for exemple, the famous "Yellow books"'s archvillains are the Kazhars businessmen, do I need to elaborate?

@paul, james, doug

I stand corrected.
I personally have yet to meet someone who believes that the landing was fake. I´ll start asking around...

Still, I think Pogue is right: This theory is not a German speciality.


@doughnut boy andy

"I think it was Fuchur who originally suggested that the aim of this program was to ridicule / argue against these theories. "

Nope, wasn´t me. (I cited an interview with he author of the movie. But he doesn´t really say what his aim was.)

I think a poll needs to be done to examine trans-Atlantic differences in the acceptance of Apollo 11 conspiracy theories. As of now all we have is anecdotal claims. As an American, I can honestly say that I have never met anyone here in person who claimed that the moon landings were faked. I tend to think that —here at least— these losers are rather marginalized and confined to their own little clubs —which provide most of the "experts" for the conspiracy documentaries— rather that representative of the population at large.

The American, and for that matter, Soviet, space programs would have never succeeded when they did without the influx of German scientist after WWII.

Germans had as much to do with putting a man on the moon as Americans and Russians. Starting the exploration of space is a triumph of western intellectualism, which makes this current trans-Atlantic spate all the more depressing.

Collin

Fucher: "Still, I think Pogue is right: This theory is not a German speciality."

True. The video it's based upon is an American production. Like others here, I'd also be interested in seeing a new poll done to see how many people around the world believe this nonsense.

There's this clown on late-night radio called Art Bell who makes his living talking about conspiracy theories. He was the one who got so many people revved up a few years back about the "coming Y2K disaster" that never happened. He was, of course, also selling Y2K Survival Kits on the side ;).

Collin: "Germans had as much to do with putting a man on the moon as Americans and Russians."

Exactly. Some basic rocketry work was established by Robert Goddard in the US early in the 20th Century, but he was unable to work out certain problems with launching liquid fueled rockets, and his work was interrupted by WWII (his expertise was needed for designing more conventional aircraft). He died near the end of WWII. Von Braun was the genius who led the team who managed to get the kinks out of the US program that Goddard started.

If ever there was an example of international co-operation, this was it.

@collin
“The American, and for that matter, Soviet, space programs would have never succeeded when they did without the influx of German scientist after WWII.”

I guess you’ve never heard of Robert Goddard? He was an American scientist who built the first liquid rocket in Acton, Massachusetts. And before him, the Chinese built rockets from gunpowder. Never say never. Furthermore, the Americans have lead nearly all further achievements in space since 1969. The Russians still have mastery of long-term time in outer-space.

“Germans had as much to do with putting a man on the moon as Americans and Russians.”

Werner von Bruan may have been a visionary, but Americans conducted the bulk of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs. Did the Germans also pay for the program?

Henry Ford invented the production line and built cars with it. Under your logic, then BMW really has Henry Ford to thank for success.

@all

Here are a few good web sites debunking claims about the faked Apollo space programs:

here

here

here

@mamapajamas

Prior to hostilities between the US and Germany in WWII, Germany was confused with the relative disinterest that the US military had in Goddards achievements. In fact, von Braun contacted Goddard and Goddard sent him information! Goddard's finacing was a pittance in comparision to what von Braun was getting several years later....

James, yes, I seem to recall something about that. If Goddard had lived, they might have been able to work the kinks out of the "Nell" rocket a lot sooner, working together.

BTW, I got a "404 Not Found" error on all of your links :(.

Niko,

Three British teams took part in the X-Prize competition. Or were you using "European" to mean "Continental European"?

BTW, I got a "404 Not Found" error on all of your links :(.

Just try the link I already provided above: http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

Actually, the theory that the Bush government was somehow involved in 9/11 also seems to be quite widespread in the US, or at least in the place where the crime happened: New York.
A poll conducted 2004 by Zogby International showed that "half (49.3%) of New York City residents and 41% of New York citizens overall say that some of our leaders 'knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act'". Even 30% of registered Republicans supported that claim, and among New Yorkers under 30 years, two thirds agreed with it.
Of course, given the sponsor of the survey (the conspiracy forum 911truth.org) such numbers should be greeted with some scepticism, but they are so high that the conclusion that a large part of the New York population believes in a conspiracy is almost certainly right.

Anon: "Of course, given the sponsor of the survey (the conspiracy forum 911truth.org) such numbers should be greeted with some scepticism, but they are so high that the conclusion that a large part of the New York population believes in a conspiracy is almost certainly right."

OR... this could be yet another instance of completely making up numbers, such as the 300,000 homeless during the Reagan administration who mysteriously morphed into 3,000,000. The far left has been widely known to make up numbers for a LONG time.

ARD seems not to have the courage to let us Americans (including Canadians) see the episode.

http://liaslc.blogspot.com/2005/06/undermined-again.html

I want to say that I will never forget what Claudia Roth did for those two German-American boys in Arizona, even though they were executed anyway. That took real guts. She will always have my support 100% no matter what.

As far as the Apollo Moon landings, a lot of Americans also believe they were faked. Werner von Braun was basically a Nazi war criminal who experimented on prisoners and used slave labor to build his rockets. I view the American space program as a triumph of American ingenuity, and yes we comprise a nation of people with many different backgrounds including Germans.


@mamapajamas

Here are a few good web sites debunking claims about the faked Apollo space programs (once more):

here

here

here

@ Kees Rudolf

Thanks for your agreement and reply. I knew somebody would bring up the "German" word after I hit the post button but I did put it in there on purpose. By doing so I did not in any way wish to trivialise the pogroms in other countries before the Holocaust, deny that other countries in Europe and the world have problems with anti-Semitism or ignore anti-Zionism or pan-arabic / pan-Islamic nationalism. I just wanted to point out that anti-Semitism has been a constant problem for Germany and remains so, from way back, through 1871, to the present and for the forseeable future. Any criticism of Germany must start here and as we both agreed a TV show that portrays such conspiracy twaddle is in this context outrageous and puts into perspective every "We are a new germany" speech by any politician. I think its the German problem also for other reasons rather than just continuity through the ages. The pogroms or attacks on Jews as scape goats in for example Poland and Russia were violent and deadly murders of individuals. The Nazis took this to a new dimension of trying to wipe the whole lot and this in the one of the most developed countries in Europe at the time. This "German crisis solution" in a shortened form of capitalism critic is common. This is the same with the Heuschrecken episode in IG Metal. If something is too complicated to understand then find a scapegoat and simplify everything so they take the blame. Henry Ford did this in the 1930s with his International Jew magazine but it didnt, despite the huge ammount of money and the power of his name, get anywhere in the USA. Why? because presumably the enlightenment allows such beliefs to exist but not to prosper as the majority of people are able to see through them. As others have pointed out, there are a lot of Bush= 9 11 people in the USA but thats not surprising and not really worrying. I am sure that after the shock of 9 11 a lot of Americans were stunned, suddenly being attacked and panicking for the future, scared for themselves and their loved ones and gradually facing up to the grim reality of what GWB put so simply and brilliantly: "We are at war." Many found hope and help in their families, a few probably went to church for the first time in a while, others decided to find out why and others probably hid in the security of a little conspiracy theory. And although there were sad repurcussions in the USA (anti-Semitic attacks did increase slightly) the danger of this is limited compared to Europe I think. A third reason I would call this a "German" problem is that the modern anti-Semite no matter whethere they define themselves as left or right are directly influenced by the German experience. Middle Eastern anti-Semitism has more to do with Hitler than Mohammed, strong influences coming from the Muslim Brotherhood over the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Baathist regimes were set up I believe under the control of Vichy France. The protocols are printed there as is Mein Kampf and TV and newspaper adverts show cartoons that surely must be based on Der Stuermer. Neo-Nazis in Australia, South America or anywhere else are likely to have a Swastika in their room and a copy of Mein Kampf under their bed. This is a German export.

To sum up I think that anti-Semitism is a German constant and although levels may be high in other countries the history of Germany makes this more worrying and surveys done anon show very high levels here. Germany is like a recovering alchoholic, pretending it doesnt really want to drink but just a sniff might be enough. This is why I disagree with Schilly´s speech being good but I should put that on the other thread. Just so much work today and no time grrrr.

@fuchur.

Sorry no offense intended. I thought it was you that brought up the issue but I was wrong.

OR... this could be yet another instance of completely making up numbers, such as the 300,000 homeless during the Reagan administration who mysteriously morphed into 3,000,000. The far left has been widely known to make up numbers for a LONG time.

While the folks of 911truth.org are likely to be on the "far left", Zogby International is probably mischaracterized by your posting.

Anon: "While the folks of 911truth.org are likely to be on the "far left", Zogby International is probably mischaracterized by your posting."

Sorry, Anon... even Zogby has been known to cook poll questions to get the response they want.

They're generally pretty good on predicting presidential races, but have been known to ask loaded questions from time to time.

@Doughnut Boy Andy,
You are entirely right that anti-Semitism is a German constant and that the history of Germany makes the present high level of anti-Semitism (and related anti-Americanism) more worrying. My comment on your previous posting had its origin in my fear of generalizing too rashly about Germany and the Germans. You probably know that in Germany's neighbouring countries (the UK, Holland) Germany bashing after WWII was a kind of folk-sport and continued to be so for decades. I always felt this as unfair towards the younger generation. I was born myself shortly after WWII and I remember how at my Grammar School the history teacher told us that the Germans were a peculiar kind of people, with a special predisposition towards antisemitism, militarism, uncritical obedience of authorities etc. In the later sixties, when the neo-nazi's were still a very insignificant fringe group, it was said that Nazism was making its come-back in Germany, as if this was somehow to be expected, as if there was still some necessary link between Germany and Nazism, and as if democracy in Germany was something very fragile. But when I met real flesh and blood Germans, I was always struck with how similar they were to the Dutch people and how much we had in common (both negative and positive characteristics). With some German people I have excellent relationships. I'm very reluctant to generalize, and, though I understand why the generation of my parents had strong anti-German feelings, I dislike anti-Germanism just as much as I dislike anti-Americanism. (I'm sure there are now history teachers who are consciously or unconsciously promoting anti-Americanism.) I'm still not inclined to worry too much about neo-nazism, though indeed this current is growing, especially in the former communist GDR. I find the link between the extreme left, infiltrating the 'respectable'left, and anti-Semitism in disguise, far more disquieting. This is a European phenomenon, not something specifically German. What about for instance in the UK the recent AUT-debate to boycott Israelian universities? Or in the Netherlands, the wife of the president of the ECB, Gretta Duisenberg, campaigning for the Palestinians and sympathizing with suicide-bombers, a former prime minister siding with her, both of course indignantly rejecting the charge of anti-Semitism? This is anti-Semitism in disguise, becoming gradually socially acceptable ("salonfähig").
About anti-Semitism in the Arab world being a German export I read also Matthias Küntzel. Essential reading! It is important that the contiguity and similarity between Arab antisemitism and the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich is seen as such. Nevertheless, it should be kept in mind that the nazist anti-Semitic Ideology in the Arab countries clearly has fallen on an extremely fertile soil. If Jew-hatred in the countries surrounding Israel was not more widespread and virulent than in today's Germany, I think life in Israel was much safer than it is now.

@ anonymous : Quote : "I want to say that I will never forget what Claudia Roth did for those two German-American boys in Arizona, even though they were executed anyway. That took real guts. She will always have my support 100% no matter what. "

Claudia Roth is an embarssment of the first degree.

And IIRC didn´t those "boys" murder someone ?

Sorry, Anon... even Zogby has been known to cook poll questions to get the response they want.

It's hard to judge such a claim. Could you provide any evidence to support it?

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

February 2021

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28