Berlin Outrage: Checkpoint Charlie Monument to be Bulldozed July 4th (Part 2)

Update: The Monument Has Been Destroyed.

We at Davids Medienkritik have been closely following events surrounding the planned removal of the Checkpoint Charlie monument. The monument, which consists of over 1,000 crosses adorned with the names of those murdered attempting to escape Communist East Germany for freedom during the Cold War, was to be razed in the middle of the night at 4:01 AM on July 4th Berlin time. After widespread protest from victim's families, American veterans groups and many others, the city decided to move the scheduled bulldozing back a day to 4:01 AM on July 5th, cynically explaining that its initial decision had been "mediawise imprudent." But, as we have already noted, the irony is that at 4:01 AM Berlin time on the 5th, it will still be July 4th in the USA! It will be 10:01 PM in New York and 7:01 PM in LA, just about the time Americans will be setting off fireworks to celebrate the anniversary of their independence!

The Checkpoint Charlie monument scheduled for destruction July 5th in Berlin (July 4th in the USA): Each cross has the name, and in some cases, photo of a victim of Communism murdered attempting to escape East Germany during the Cold War. Three Americans are among those honored.

Berlin's Socialist-Communist City Government Behind the Monument's Planned Removal

Unfortunately, the portion of Checkpoint Charlie on which the monument stands is not a protected historic site. It is owned by a bank named Bankaktiengesellschaft (BAG) headquartered in the German state of North Rhine-Westphalia. It was Bankaktiengesellschaft which leased the land to the Checkpoint Charlie Museum and its director, Ms. Alexandra Hildebrandt. On her own initiative and with the help of others, Ms. Hildebrandt began putting the monument together last year. According to John Fund of the Wall Street Journal, it was officially unveiled on November 15, 2004 to mark the 15th anniversary of the Berlin Wall's fall. Since that day the monument has been a thorn in the eye of the city government of Berlin, which is made up of a coalition between the SPD (Gerhard Schroeder's Social-Democrats) and the PDS (former SED party that ran Communist East Germany). This despite the fact that the site attracts thousands of tourists daily and generates a significant income.

Perhaps the monument's most outspoken critic has been city official Thomas Flierl of the Communist PDS, who has blamed the site for what he sees as the "Disneyfication" of Berlin. He and others in the Berlin city government have repeatedly called for the crosses to be removed and put pressure on Bankaktiengesellschaft to terminate its lease to the Checkpoint Charlie Museum. The bank cooperated and successfully sued Ms. Hildebrandt when she refused to remove the monument. Since the court decision was handed down, those wishing to preserve the monument have been told by Bankaktiengesellschaft (BAG) that the site can only be purchased for 36 million Euros (or about $43.2 million), an outrageously inflated price. Clearly, the bank's so-called offering price is completely absurd and clearly designed to frustrate the monument's supporters since the real estate's true market value is not worth even a fraction of the bank's asking price.

Henry Nickel of Republicans Abroad correctly described the bank's actions as a smokescreen and a total lack of good-faith aimed at giving the Berlin city government what it wants: Clearance to bulldoze the site. Mr. Nickel also pointed out that the bank is now refusing to take calls on the matter, instead asking those who oppose the monument's removal to send a written letter. The bank's disingenuous stonewalling and outrageous pricetag clearly demonstrate a sense of profound arrogance and condescension towards those wishing to preserve the monument.

Massive Conflict of Interest (from our first article)

What makes this story all the more disturbing is the obvious conflict of interest involved. As we indicated above, the Communist PDS is currently a member of the coalition that governs the city of Berlin. But prior to 1990, the PDS was known as the SED (Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands), the party that ruled East Germany with an absolutist iron fist. It was the SED dictatorship that was directly responsible for the hundreds of murders that the crosses at Checkpoint Charlie memorialize. And guess what? The PDS wants the monument torn down!

According to Deutsche Welle:

"The Berlin Senate for Urban Planning, one of the project's main detractors, fears that the capital is fast becoming a "Disneyland" version of its former self and insists the wall monument is too reminiscent of the Holocaust project at the Brandenburg Gate. The authority stresses that the East German dictatorship cannot be equated with the atrocities of the Third Reich."

In other words, the Socialists and Communists in Berlin's city government don't want to be constantly reminded of the murders that the SED dictatorship committed during the Cold War. How unpleasant that would be for them! So they would rather allow the crosses to be bulldozed and mockingly associate the monument with Disneyland, a place that many Germans see as a symbol of trivial American commercialization.

July 3: Rally to Preserve Checkpoint Charlie Monument in Berlin

We at Davids Medienkritik would therefore like to support efforts underway to gather at the monument site this Sunday, July 3, 2005. Anyone who can make it to Berlin this Sunday is encouraged to attend. Here are the details:

Overview

On Sunday July 3, a temporary photomontage will be set up at Checkpoint Charlie to demonstrate international support and solidarity for preserving the site as a monument to the struggle for freedom. The installation will consist of a montage of approximately five photos illustrating the history of Checkpoint Charlie and the division of Berlin. Under the theme "Ich bin ein Berliner - I support preserving Checkpoint Charlie as a monument to the struggle for freedom." visitors to the site will have the opportunity to sign their name and provide their country of origin on the installation.

Volunteers will be mobilized to Potsdamer Platz, Brandenburger Tor and Alexander Platz on Sunday morning July 3 at 11 a.m. to pass out flyers notifying visitors to visit Checkpoint Charlie and sign their name on the installation.

Everyone taking part will then gather at the monument site at 3 p.m. Berlin time on Sunday, July 3 to express their support.

A BBQ will follow in Mitte starting at 17:00. Press will be notified of the effort, the emphasis will be to maximize public turnout at the Memorial site on Sunday up until the scheduled demolition on July 5 and provide as many signatures and expressions of support as possible.

Like Disneyland? How can Schroeder's SPD Support the Monument's Destruction on July 4th of all Days?

This all comes in the wake of Monday's visit of German Chancellor Schroeder to the White House in which Mr. Schroeder attempted to convince Americans that all is fine and well with German-American relations. As John Fund of the Wall Street Journal pointed out, the monument's planned destruction is one item that should have been on the agenda but wasn't during Schroeder's meeting with President Bush. Have Germans already forgotten the sacrifices of thousands of Americans who stood guard at Checkpoint Charlie and throughout Germany for decades during the Cold War?

Important: Let Them Know How You Feel!

The bank that owns the leased land and sued to have the crosses removed, Bankaktiengesellschaft (BAG), can be contacted at: [email protected]

You can email Thomas Flierl's spokesperson at: [email protected]

You can email Berlin's mayor Klaus Wowereit (SPD) at: [email protected]

You can email Berlin's Senator for City Development, Ingeborg Junge-Reyer (SPD) at: [email protected]

You can email Walter Momper (SPD), who also compared the monument to Disneyland and is the president of the Berlin state parliament at: [email protected]

Note: Be sure to check out our first article on this issue.

(Article by Ray D.)

Comments

[Johannes Gerstenbroich]

Our bank will bulldoze this insane monument and the whole socialist checkpoint. There is nothing you American commies can do against it. Get over it, Germany needs more jobs and bulldozing useless things is one way to create them.
We could built an ALDI market there or a LIDL or maybe a Wal Mart to show how capitalist we are now.
Helmut Kohl defeated communism 15 years ago, now it is time to move on and destroy everything related to this chapter of history.
The 4th of July is not a holiday in Germany , in fact it was a sad day in our nation's history, because we Germans supported King George III against the American insurgents.

[Arlene]

@Johannes Gerstenbroich

"...Germans supported King George III against the American insurgents." Always on the right side of history aren't you?

[fuchur]

There is a "lack of good faith" from the bank? Imagine that. Well, I can only guess, but maybe this has something to do with the fact that the museum illegally occupied the bank´s property for half a year >:->.

4:01 AM on July 5th Berlin time means it´s still July 4th in the US? Oh please...
Then why did you complain about the original date? 4:01 AM on July 4th Berlin time means it´s still July 3rd in the US.
Sorry, can´t have your cake and eat it.

Something completely different: Purchasing the land probably wouldn´t solve all the problems. I´m pretty sure the monument would still have to be approved by the city government, even if it was on private ground. Anybody round here know more about the laws in this case?

[Eric B]

Thanks to Medienkritik, CNSNews.com picked up the story.
Link

[Ray D.]

@ fuchur,

The only reason the bank has any problem with the monument is because the government wants to get rid of it and put pressure on them. If the government didn't want that, the bank would have gladly kept on taking the museum's lease payments. How do you explain the bank asking for 36 million Euros when the land is not worth close to that?

Come on guys, that's CAPITALISM!

[Fredrik]

Thanks for your great work.

"Under the theme "Ich bin ein Berliner - I support preserving Checkpoint Charlie as a monument to the struggle for freedom." visitors to the site will have the opportunity to sign their name and provide their country of origin on the installation."

Visitors to the web-site or the monument-site?

I am not sure it is in line with your strategy but; if it was possible to "sign" the installation online my name would be there!

[Querdenker]

Why should a bank cede to the pressure of a red senate? A bank wants to make money. Maybe they think that with all those protests they can sell at an inflated price? It's their right.

Checkpoint Charlie doesn't exist anymore, there is nothing to "preserve". If the Mauermuseum is such a good thing it can easily be moved to another site. People did not only try to flee the GDR at Checkpoint Charlie.

You cannot lease a property and then refuse to vacate when your lease is up just because you are doing something "good" with that lease.

If you want it, buy it. And that doesn't mean that the bank will get what it asked for.

There's a thing called "negotiations". Try it some time.

[Doughnut Boy Andy]

Sorry people but I just went along to the Checkpoint and I wasnt impressed at all. I read this in the Times today:

"“It’s a scandal that it has got as far as this,” Henry Nickel, head of the German branch of the US Republican Party, said.

“We support everyone who wants an appropriate monument. The bank, the city and the museum should work out a sensible alternative.”"

I agree with Henry Nickel but I dont think this is an appropriate monument. Its not a place of quiet reflection but full of tourists and tacky souvenier stands selling DDR and UdSSR army goods. The wall isnt the wall but a copy that is in the wrong place and it doesnt look good at all. I have asked a lot of people about this in the last few days but havent found any evidence of any sort of conspiracy at all. Nobody saw this as an anti-American issue. Everyone I met was generally in favour of a monument but most were against this private project. A lot of respect was shown for the museum, who saved a lot of stuff in the chaos of the falling of the wall, but most felt that they would prefer the council to put up a real monument or something similar to remember these murdered people.

As I stood there I could understand that a lot of people are upset about this. If my loved ones name was on a cross to be knocked down Id be very upset or if I served at this post and felt my work was now being written out of history. The whole thing has been handled very badly.

So is the demo about saving this memorial or about the importance of having an appropriate one somewhere? Id be, after looking at it today, against this one sadly but in favour of a monument in a part of the park where people could reflect and remember. If that ammount of cash is to be raised then ID invest it in a suitable place and donate some to the museum in BrunnenStr and the Topography of Terror.

[Doug]

lol@ "American commies"

Johannes, you are your own rebuttal.

[Thomas]

Chill out guys, this is a non-story.

Besides, it's the bank property so they can do whatever they want with it. I'm glad the government didn't waste any more tax money on another monument ("cultural heritage subsidies"). My god, the billions of euros that are wasted each year on that kind of crap, it's a typical part of big government, i'm glad it will be replaced for something that can make money.

Do you really believe monuments and "education" will prevent totalitarian ideas from arising ? In that case, you're a leftie. It won't even slow them down. The only thing that stops totalitarianism is freedom and the people ready to defend it. Appeasement (=decadence) is the danger coming from Germany and the EU and the democrats in the USA, not vanishing monuments.

[Eg]

One can only imagine with horror the likes of the beast which, long dormant, is now emerging out of the ashes of the last Reich.

[Thomas]

@Eg

Indeed, and at first sight, it is aimed at the USA.

But that's just superficial. The left nowadays tries desperately to channel any mal-sentiment to the USA, the kind of hatred that is pretty harmless.

What the left (and the right) nowadays is really afraid to death about is that racist ideologies are coming back. Jew hatred has always been mainstream (and because of the small number of jews, also pretty 'harmless' compared to what is about to happen), but you can imagine where this hatred is aimed at today : Islam, of course. The kristalnacht will look like a little street fight compared to the pogroms the muslims will face when that beast breaks out.

I can hear the jobless mob shout already by the tens of millions : "free europe of islam". It won't be nice...

[Theodor (Ted) Hans]

Your report and comments are excellent. I have sent E-Mail appeals for support of the monument of the Museum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie to the Charge d'Affairs of the US Embassy in Berlin, to the President of the US, and to the Melinda & Bill Gates Foundation. It's good to demonstrate and protest publicly but also essential to check closely into the political nature of the present caretaker control of the lot and the connection of the bank to the former SED regime. Ted Hans

[Theodor (Ted) Hans]

Your report and comments are excellent. I have sent E-Mail appeals for support of the monument of the Museum Haus am Checkpoint Charlie to the Charge d'Affairs of the US Embassy in Berlin, to the President of the US, and to the Melinda & Bill Gates Foundation. It's good to demonstrate and protest publicly but also essential to check closely into the political nature of the present caretaker control of the lot and the connection of the bank to the former SED regime. Ted Hans

[Ricardo III]

That won´t happen the way described,
1. the Germans are different ones now
2. the Turks would not stand for it either

[Irena Mitzka]

@ whoever
continued
from part 1.

if those are comments from another guy maybe it would be better for you to post some kind of name.

Over many years I have learned that the German obsession to " think, talk and act " in shades of grey is a great hindrance to getting things done. It is an excuse for looking the other way, not getting involved, not doing anything, except mayby talk and bicker about those taking any kind of action. There are many cases of black being black enough and white being white enough to act.

If you care to talk about Iraq , do it with others here. I hadn´t mentioned it.

your next "Unterstellung":
I also did not begin a pissing contest on whose tax system is better. I said I regret paying taxes here (oddles), (during the last ca. 7 years), Green/Red ideological spending of tax revenue.
I find these comparisons to be nonsense. They are mostly brought about however by any and everyone criticising the US methods.
They are respectively ( German and US )and really no one elses business.

[Ray D.]

@ Doughnut Boy:

That's a major point. They don't have an alternative proposal. At least nothing we have heard about. AS for the people selling souveneirs, why does the monument have to be blamed for that? The souveneir sellers ought to be removed, not the crosses! Why can't they leave the monument alone until the bank actually sells the land or finds some other appropriate use for it such as an official monument? The bottom line is the city government wants this thing destroyed because it reminds them of their own dark history.

[SleepingInSeattle]

Doesn't seem that the defenders of the action can explain the sale offer of 36 million Euros for that lot to save the memorial if everything's on the up and up. Think about it, banks don't like losing money, infact that hate it, but for some reason they're going to make an exception in this case as the lot is just sitting there not generating money for the bank as it was with the lease. The only sale offer made was a non-offer essentially, so why is the bank doing this?

[Helian]

Remember all the left's hand wringing and shedding of pious crocodile tears over private and perfectly legal deals of U.S. firms with Saddam back in the 80's? Suddenly, when a German bank caves to pressure from a corrupt government with a legacy of murder, the scales fall from their eyes, and they can't imagine how anyone would dare to question a perfectly legal, private business arrangement. Amazing how quickly the left discovers the virtues of capitalism if they can use it to sweep history under the rug. As Orwell said, he who controls the present controls the past.

[Cephas]

Arlene, let's not forget Baron von Stueben.

Can't be with you, but during the rally, someone ought to ask Her Flierl if he's related to some of the Vopos who manned the towers.

[Arlene]

Hmmm....Shame on me. I should have remembered von Stueben as my husband was a memeber of Stueben Society. (For those who are not familiar with the Stueben Society--it is a club, named for von Stueben, for German-American police officers.)

[CharlieS]

The SED has the upper hand again, dictating policy. Incredible. And that in a supposedly democratic country. Sorry I cannot be there on July 2nd. Wishing you success in adverting this disaster. Just look at the members of the German government and then one realizes the sorry state of German politics.

[Kai]

Why are you so sure that EUR 36 Mio. is an inflated price? Is there some place in the Internet where I can look for recent ground prices in Berlin?

[SleepingInSeattle]

Yeah, the bank would have been leasing out such a ultra-valuable piece of real estate if had been worth 36,000,000 Euros and wouldn't have been seeking real buyers before the lease expired. Think about it, it appears to be an empty lot, not a office building or anything like that.

[Walter E. Wallis]

Get pictures of the bulldozing. It will be handy to have around the next time Germany needs help, to remind us how little they deserve it.

[SleepingInSeattle]

Former DMK blog reader, are you the one that posts variations of that in about half the posts at Medienkritik for the last year?

[Yowza]

Hey Hey, what do you know?

Bush brings up the 9/11 and Saddam fantasy again, and believe me, its not just the German media, but the American too, noticing the astounding stupidity and irrelevance of his comments.

@Irena Mitzka

"German obsession to " think, talk and act " in shades of grey is a great hindrance to getting things done. It is an excuse for looking the other way, not getting involved, not doing anything, except mayby talk and bicker about those taking any kind of action"

So give an examples what you mean with that general statement.
In my experiance germans are fat trinking beer listening to volksmusik living in bavaria and wearing lederhosen is that your discussion way

"you care to talk about Iraq , do it with others here. I hadn´t mentioned it."

i know you don´t make any clear and concret comments you just make Platitüden. I only try to give an example to your statements.

"I also did not begin a pissing contest on whose tax system is better"
Oh really
i know you don´t like facts or real discussions if you can make easy points with steriotypes. by the way the US was just an example for a country with a different system we can also take high taxing scandinavian countries if you like.

"Green/Red ideological spending of tax revenue"

There i would agree although overall the increase of the budget is or was not the problem and in general the support of new energy types was a good decission ( only in general) but not in that ideological way. I know you havn´t mentioned that example because you prefer words like democracy freedom ideological.... compared to real examples and numbers.

[Jeff]

@ Helian:

"Remember all the left's hand wringing and shedding of pious crocodile tears over private and perfectly legal deals of U.S. firms with Saddam back in the 80's?"

Wow. This one made me laugh....hard. The dealings of a bank with a dictator (whose removal has now cost the US itself billions and billions of dollars) is actually being compared with a bank cancelling its lease on a piece of land. And the comparison of Saddam with the PDS. Congatulations of creating the worlds most shabby strawman. In fact, better call it a psuedo-strawman.

[Rofe]

I've been following the latest developments regarding the Freedom Tower in NYC, and I wonder if there aren't some parallels with this case in Berlin. For example, given the passionate defense of this 'monument' by many here, I would suppose that those same commentors also passionately oppose any site development at Ground Zero.

Similarly, given that the Berlin 'monument' is largely an internal German matter, shouldn't Germany and Germans be given the consideration to resolve it on their own ? Or, to flip the question, how would commentors here (myself included) react to a German web site that railed against development at Ground Zero because Germans also died there ?

And while I'll admit that Helian has a point (delivered with the usual rhetorical flourish) about the sketchinesss of folks playing up arguments they generally disdain, that blade certainly cuts both ways. After all, the PDS - dark ideological legacy included - has been vetted in the ideological marketplace. Democracy is about the freedom to make choices, even if one doesn't agree with the outcome.

Cheers,

[fuchur]

The bank has no buyer for the land right now and still doesn´t want to lease it to Ms Hildebrandt for $20000 a month.
Some people think that this sounds fishy, but I think it is quite easy to explain:

As long as the "monument" is there, nobody will buy the land. It´s ridiculous to suggest that the bank should simply extend the lease to the museum "forever" and then some day say: "Sorry, now we have found a buyer, so get your crosses off our land." Just imagine the uproar...

Another thing: Ms Hildebrandt obviously is not a reliable person. How long would the museum have been able to pay? Chances are that Ms Hildebrant would reveal to the bank after half a year that the rate was to high and that she wouldn´t pay any more. What then? Whenever there is a public scandal, the "greedy, capitalist bank" will be the loser.

$20000 a month is a bad deal if it means that you are under constant threat of blackmail by Ms Hildebrandt.

[Helian]

@Jeff

>>”Wow. This one made me laugh....hard.”

We’re all familiar with the peculiar mania of people, commonly on the left, who find themselves unable to debate an issue on its merits. It typically manifests itself in hysterical laughter. I’m sure we’ve been keeping you in stitches here for some time.

>>”The dealings of a bank with a dictator (whose removal has now cost the US itself billions and billions of dollars) is actually being compared with a bank cancelling its lease on a piece of land. And the comparison of Saddam with the PDS. Congatulations of creating the worlds most shabby strawman. In fact, better call it a psuedo-strawman.”

Hmm, odd that you’re so quick to rush to the defense of the PDS. Actually, my point was not to compare Saddam with the PDS. As I’m sure you would have noticed if you were seriously interested in discussing the issue on its merits, and as Rofe does me the justice of pointing out, I was alluding to the hypocrisy of people who are shocked, SHOCKED, that anyone would dare to question the motives of a bank that protects the interests of its investors by arbitrarily terminating leases that have performed well with no buyer in sight, and then cultivates customer good will by demanding a grotesquely high price for the property. (By way of explanation, Furchur assures us that German banks commonly assume they will be blackmailed if they are imprudent enough to renew leases. Now I get it!)

As far as comparing Saddam with the PDS is concerned, you truly do me an injustice by suggesting I would do such a thing. It may be true that Saddam murdered several hundreds of thousands of his own people, and gased children in villages, but, after all, he was a mere dilettante compared to the ex-STASI thugs who run the PDS in Berlin. We shouldn’t trivialize his crimes by exaggerating them.

[Rofe]

Unfortunately, my search on this case revealed no concrete information regarding lease renewal, let alone arbitrary lease termination or potential buyers. My search also revealed no information on the bank's dealings with Fr. Hildebrandt, other than the bare outlines of the current case. Lease was to run from October 2004 to the end of 2004; monthly lease rate € 12,000 ($ 16,000). Someone pointed all this out upthread, but who can really believe what he reads in German newspapers ?

Therefore, I'll admit that I was pleasantly shocked, SHOCKED I tell you to find out that Helian is a well-placed insider, privvy to this bank's internal goings on. We needed some illumination from someone in the know, and his comments reflect some seriously priveleged internal information. (Of course we know there's a huge difference between arbitrarily terminating a lease and simply not renewing a lease that has, for whatever reason, expired. Not that anyone would conflate the two to score cheap points.)

Given that I don't know Helian's particular circumstances, perhaps he could fill us all in on how he knows these details and isn't simply playing fast and loose with a good story.

Being no fan of the PDS, I'm also aware of their legacy. However, I didn't know about the Stasi thugs currently in city government. I would certainly appreciate some authentication regarding those charges as well.

Or is all this colorful detail simply made up to sound good ?

Cheers,

Cheap Ami-propaganda will disappear. Who cares?

[Jeff]

"Actually, my point was not to compare Saddam with the PDS"

"Remember all the left's hand wringing and shedding of pious crocodile tears over private and perfectly legal deals of U.S. firms with Saddam back in the 80's? Suddenly, when a German bank caves to pressure from a corrupt government with a legacy of murder, the scales fall from their eyes"

Perhaps you should read your own comments when you have the time. By comparing the two deals of the banks you are comparing the essence of those deals as you see them, which is who they were made with. Your last paragraph was an excellent example of your incapability to provide a logical response, just as saying the PDS is evil because of its legacy. I guess Germans are also evil because of their history, and Southerners because of their slave driving tradition.

Very mature response of the ex-Stasi thugs in the PDS. On par with Bush being a crack smoker. Anyways, we know the US would not allow any form of government that is truly democratic to exist, and if the PDS was close to undemocratic, we would see lots of goodwill bombing.

[Jeff]

oops...the last sentence was supposed to say UNdemocratic

[Helian]

@Rofe

>>”Therefore, I'll admit that I was pleasantly shocked, SHOCKED I tell you to find out that Helian is a well-placed insider, privvy to this bank's internal goings on. We needed some illumination from someone in the know, and his comments reflect some seriously priveleged internal information.”

Tell me, what proof did the German MSM offer when they launched a jihad against the U.S. Echelon system, accusing us of spying on German industry? When they went into hysterics about a U.S. company’s plans to buy an interest in a Spanish firm that allegedly possessed classified information on German Panzer technology, what documents did they produce proving that our true aim was espionage? What proof have they ever offered in their similar tirades about U.S. deals with Saddam? Now that the shoe’s on the other foot, you suddenly want us to ignore this rotten deal, that reeks to high heaven, because “it’s a mere private arrangement.” We’re supposed to bring you stacks of proof, wrapped up in nice neat bundles with legal briefs summarizing the evidence. I don’t think so! Suddenly you want us to start playing SPIEGEL’s post-911 “Spielchen mit den Beweisen.” On that occasion they famously refused to admit any al Qaeda role in the attack even after the Arabs had long accepted it. If it were up to SPIEGEL, bin Laden himself couldn’t have proved to them that he did it. Forget about it! We’re not playing that game. The bank and the government of Berlin owe an explanation to the victims for this rotten deal, and people who object to attempts to sweep history under the rug should demand an explanation, regardless of what country they live in.

>>”Being no fan of the PDS, I'm also aware of their legacy. However, I didn't know about the Stasi thugs currently in city government.”

Wolfgang Leonhard and many others have amply documented the legacy of the PDS. I don’t believe that the Nazis of today are tolerant and democratic, or that the KKK of today respects diversity, or that the PDS of today can wash its hands of the legacy of its past collaboration with the worst mass murderer the world has ever known. As we can see today at Checkpoint Charlie, some of them would like to deny that legacy.

[Jeff]

Perhaps Helian should answer Bettina's question, relating to the far more meaningful memorial of Bernauer Strasse, which ISN'T being torn down. Perhaps Helian can pull the star-spangled wool off her eyes to see that the difference between deals with a (then CURRENT) dictator who murdered people, and one which involves taking back property, from a memorial that was not even truly authentic in the first place, and no CURRENT murderer is playing a role in the story. Please notice the word current, since all your rhetoric attempts to drown out that fact.

Your psuedo-intellect decieves no one.

[Helian]

>>"Perhaps Helian can pull the star-spangled wool off her eyes to see that the difference between deals with a (then CURRENT) dictator who murdered people, and one which involves taking back property, from a memorial that was not even truly authentic in the first place, and no CURRENT murderer is playing a role in the story."

Touchy, touchy, when it comes to criticism of the dear old KPD, er SED, oops, I mean PDS, aren't we? Perhaps I was a bit over the top with my crack about STASI thugs. For the sake of argument I will admit that the PDS contingent in Berlin may actually include one or two nice little old ladies who only very occasionally informed on their neighbors.

[Kalifornia Mike]

Die Berliner machen Luft, Luft, Luft! (With apologies to Paul Linke.) Berliners need no reminders of the past. To do so would keep them from repeating the errors of the past.

PDS wants to build a new Berlin just like the one they had behind the wall. To prove they are not what they are, they will make their Drang Nach Westen instead of the well known other direction.

Even so, I wonder how they will react to elevation of Maggie Merkel to Bundeskanzler?

As I am fond of reminding my leftist buds, folks weren't risking their lives to get into East Berlin and there were no boat people leaving South Vietnam...until the communists took over.

Eitelkeit und Falsch usw....

Those real intellectuals who inhabit the Kneipe are so smart they will likely find a way to raise unemployment to 25%.

I suggest the Berlin government name a new holiday to memorialize the event> How about Tag der Deustsche Dummheit!

[gio]

OK, I'm a little surprised how many people here keep on repeating the same resentments and simply ignore the arguments given in the posts before.
It seems to me that the issue has two important aspects:

1.Is the situation of memorials concerning the berlin wall is satisfying or not? (-> the political aspect)
2. The decision of the bank BAG and, as a consequence, of the court concerning the concrete installation at Friedrichstrasse run by Mrs. Alexandra Hildebrandt. (-> the legal aspect)

IMO it's important to keep these things apart cause the judgement about the first one massively influences the second.

ad 1. There is an official monument to remember the people who died at the wall in Bernauer Strasse

. It is at the original site of the wall and the buildings are either still or rebuilt in original condition. It's not off the track but in the inner city

. The official memorial at Checkpoint Charlie is about the confrontation of the SU and the USA right at that place (why would you have two memorials for the same purpose...?). The installation run by Mrs. Hildebrandt thus is a second memorial, made in a far less original way. Should it be in a major political interest to interfere in private business to preserve a second scale memorial?

ad 2. I think I don't need to say much about it. It's the bank's private property, it has leased it to Mrs. Hildebrandt, the lease finished, the property (which is in a first scale area) was offered to Mrs. Hildebrandt, she couldn't afford it, she didn't want to leave it, the property is cleared. So what? And concerning the date of the clearing of the land on 4th/5th of july: this is plainly ridiculous. As said before, this is no major political act, so who cares about the american independence day in this context? If you live in the US: What did you do last 3rd of october?

greets
gio

[Kalifornia Mike]

Let's not dwell in the past. The freedom loving neo-comms can't have a fresh start unless we forget their excesses of the past.

Perhaps the idea of a single memorial should be extended to symbols if the NAZI era? Lidice should be rebuilt, Dachau and other death camps should be turned into shopping centers.

Let us not forget those reactionary forces fomenting unrest in he Potsdamer Platz were responsible for that 1953 bloodbath!

After all, we all know that communism will work if only it is tried. Then, I guess it would OK for the NAZI's to return because there are no current murderers in that party?

I support the preservation of this site intact. We must not forget the enslavement of Germans in the east and those who sought to escape it.

One country, one people....one party! I would add a statue to the memorial. A statue of Herr Ulbrich, his arms outstretched in a welcoming pose as he looks out approvingly over the 1000 crosses.

[gio]

@ all: you don't want this guy named kalifornia mike to be the the only one taking part on this discussion (what a word thinking of his statements...), do you? i'd appreciate some reasonable comments.

greets
gio

[Helian]

@Gio

>>”OK, I'm a little surprised how many people here keep on repeating the same resentments and simply ignore the arguments given in the posts before.”

I agree. So tell me, when are you, Jeff, Maria and Rolf going to stop repeating the same resentments and simply ignoring the arguments given in the posts before?

>>”ad 1. The official memorial at Checkpoint Charlie is about the confrontation of the SU and the USA right at that place (why would you have two memorials for the same purpose...?). The installation run by Mrs. Hildebrandt thus is a second memorial, made in a far less original way. Should it be in a major political interest to interfere in private business to preserve a second scale memorial?”

Have you been appointed director of monuments by the German government? Since when do you have the right to dictate which monuments are appropriate, and which not. Don’t you think that’s best left up to the people for whom the monuments have some significance, other than as a painful reminder of their criminal past? Now that you’ve settled everything in Germany, will you come to the U.S. and explain to us why we need to move the Washington monument to Weehawken, and the site of Battle of Gettysburg to Liberal, Kansas?

>>”ad 2. I think I don't need to say much about it. It's the bank's private property, it has leased it to Mrs. Hildebrandt, the lease finished, the property (which is in a first scale area) was offered to Mrs. Hildebrandt, she couldn't afford it, she didn't want to leave it, the property is cleared. So what?”

And you’re complaining because we haven’t been following your arguments! We’ve demolished the “private property” ploy over and over, but you just keep repeating the same old lines, and yet you accuse others of “ignoring arguments”?? Give me a break! It’s not hard to understand how a reasonable person might suspect that this is anything but a “private property” issue, but is, instead, a provocation by the Communists in the Berlin government. What if we forget about “reasonable people” and go by the PDS’ own standards of “proof,” according to which the Iraq war was all about oil, the Afghanistan war was all about a pipeline, 911 was a conspiracy, and the CIA is responsible for every ill in the world, whether it be AIDS or someone in Outer Mongolia stubbing his toe. If we use the PDS’ own standards of proof, the ones it uses to convict the U.S. of every conceivable evil, regardless of the evidence, then such interference is an absolute certainty.

[gio]

@ Helian:

You managed again not to answer the question why do you think that the memorial at Bernauer Strasse is not sufficiant.

I think we both agree that the state should only interfere with private business when major public interest is concerned. I would be with you if the crosses at Checkpoint Charlie was the only memorial concerning the wall. Then the impression would seem reasonable that someone would try to hide the past. This is obviously not the case.

"We’ve demolished the “private property” ploy over and over..." Sorry, I can't remember any proof or even any indication that the court's judgement in effect was influenced by statements of some political actors in the Berlin Senate. And concerning the Bank's decision to end the lease: The headquarters of the BAG is located in Hamm/Westphalia, which is in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia, so in the deepest west. If you think that the influence of supposedly revisionist PDS reaches this far, you should ask yourself if they are around your corner trying to get you.

So I get to my point again: The state has done his responsibility by providing the memorial at Bernauer Strasse, if private people would like to have more, fine, but then it's private business.

Helian,

There have been disagreements - sometimes quite nasty - about development versus preservation in the US. For example, Northern Virginia is growing like crazy and places like Manassas have real problems balancing their wealth of Civil War battlefields / cemeteries / grave sites with development. Developers win plenty of battles (pun intended, and in my mind win more often than they should).

You may also remember the tempest about the Vietnam Veterans memorial. "Black gash of shame" if I recall correctly. But the marketplace speaks and it's the most visited monument in Washington. To my thinking, it's a terrifically powerful memorial.

So spare us the overblown rhetoric about a monument that's not really a monument and an issue that's largely a private matter between the bank and Fr. Hildebrandt. Who knows, she may be the tenant from hell and the bank may simply want to be done with her. I don't know, and I'll bet you don't, either.

Cheers,

[Helian]

@gio

>>"You managed again not to answer the question why do you think that the memorial at Bernauer Strasse is not sufficiant."

A monument is effective to the extent that it symbolizes something meaningful. Obviously, for many people, the Checkpoint Charlie monument is a more effective symbol of the crimes of the Communist East German regime, and of the complicity of its modern successor in those crimes, than the Bernauerstrasse monument. For that reason, it should be preserved. That is my opinion. I do not consider my opinion more valuable than anyone elses, and, when it comes to deciding this issue, the matter should be left to the people of Berlin. The destruction of the monument because of political pressure from a corrupt government is unacceptable.

>>"Then the impression would seem reasonable that someone would try to hide the past. This is obviously not the case."

That is your opinion. In fact, it obviously is the case. As has been pointed out many times before, banks do not suddenly terminate leases with no buyer in sight, and then ask outrageous prices for a property for no reason. They can't make money that way, and they are in business to make a profit. It is entirely reasonable to suspect political pressure in this case, and the motive is there.

>>"The headquarters of the BAG is located in Hamm/Westphalia, which is in the state of Northrhine-Westphalia, so in the deepest west. If you think that the influence of supposedly revisionist PDS reaches this far, you should ask yourself if they are around your corner trying to get you."

Nonsense. Decisions on local leases are normally decided at the local branch bank that handles the lease, in both Germany and the U.S.

"So I get to my point again: The state has done his responsibility by providing the memorial at Bernauer Strasse, if private people would like to have more, fine, but then it's private business."

Private business is exactly what this is not. If it were private business, the monument would not be under attack. What we have here is political pressure by the PDS, amply proved according to the PDS' own standards of evidence, as noted above.

[Knut]

Hi Friends,

bin gerade von Jean-Pierre´s Site (http://www.jphintze.de/jph/content/view/40/30/) zu Euch geraten - FANTASTISCHES Engagement für endlich mal eine gute Sache.
United we stand!
In der Tat nur traurig, dass sich so wenige der "anständigen" Deutschen für das Denkmal der Maueropfer engagieren. Dabei geht es doch darum, es nie wieder zu Diktaturen kommen zu lassen: weder roten, noch braunen!
Mach weiter so!
Knut