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And let's not forget the civil war in Albania.

One thig is certain if a US ambasador had made this type of statement he would be under pressure in the US MSM to resign. Any political party that can support such feigned ignorance and refuse to recall their Ambasador for his stupidity doesn't deserve to be in power.

Soon there will be someone who will claim that it was Genscher who caused the war in former Yogoslavia:
At the time of the recognition of Croatian Slovenian and Bosnian independence, Slovenia had its war already, and the Eastern part of Croatia had been invaded and occupied already too.

Wolfgang Ischinger gives us in the U.S. a perfect window into the present uneducated mindset of the Germans. Horrible as it is, it keeps us informed.
Greta

...let's be straight here, Mr. Ischinger is a career diplomat or some other nonesense that provides his livelihood at the trough of his fellow brethren's mark. Popularity is ripe among the queens of this world, and to raise it is to profit more by it. I'm not impressed by a state the size of Wisconsin preaching to me how I don't Love the world...

...especially when they're wrong...

So Mr. Ischinger, keep pruning, keep projecting yourself onto others, keep believing the ignorance you believe...in the mean-time men will continue to take action where others won't. Feel free to keep telling me that we are thieves, we are tyrants, we are Agamemnons bent on destruction, where your Love will see safe escape...

actually I just started thinking about the French...

...whatever...

Today we in America celebrate those who have given their lives for our freedom. You may disrespect the memory of those who have gone before you and you may believe in your heart that your glorious civilization has pushed the envelope of civility to the exclusion of all others...you may believe that no one dies and you are safe...

but you are wrong

You say a lot about yourself and perhaps your country Mr. Ischinger.

...and nothing about me...

My guess is that Chechnya and the Caucauses qualify as Eastern Europe as well though I
agree that Yugoslavia is the best example
of the problems with his revised comments.

Let's not forget the hundreds if not thousands that were killed in the overthrow of Ceausescu in Romania in 1989. Those people earned their freedom with blood. But I guess that doesn't count since Herr Ischinger only starts his clock in 1990. As if 1989 was meaningless to the course of events in the years after.

One other question arises as well. Does the fact that blood was shed in Romania make what happened afterward illegitimate? Would the anti-war, "no blood for anything" crowd like to resurrect Ceausescu and put him back in power owing to the "illegal" nature in which he was overthrown. After all, it was against Romanian law to criticize Ceausescu, let alone overthrow him. The people would be better with him back in power, right?

Let's also not forget that people died in Lithuania, Moscow, Poland and other places to make all that "peaceful" change possible.

My answer to Ambassador Ischinger:

Ambassador Ischinger recently wrote: "As older societies, we tend to think of ourselves as more experienced in the way societies evolve, and we tend to be skeptical of Americans who seem to think that if you believe hard enough, and you muster enough resources, you can change the world."

Some of the so-called "peace in Europe" has been bought at the expense of people who have been disenfrenchised of their basic human rights and self determination. I am referring to 12 Million expelled Germans fom the Eastern German Provinces. Their ancient homeland has been signed over to Poland and Russia by Germany contrary to requirements of international law. The latter stipulates that such annexations are only legally permissable after a plebiscite has been held among those who would be affected by such a process. In case the population of such territories agrees with the annexation, it may proceed. In any other case - it would remain illegal.

One would expect that such "older societies" as cited by Ambassador Ischinger, would have learned by now from Peace Treaties, like the one signed at Versailles, that these illegal procedures are seldom worth the paper they are written upon.

Peace treaties which are only based upon brutal revanche and power without humane consideration for the vanquished, are nothing more but ensurance of future conflict. Our United States has long ago recognized this truth whereas todays Europe has seemingly been absent during that lesson in history.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida

Soon there will be someone who will claim that it was Genscher who caused the war in former Yogoslavia

Yes - I will claim that. For while there was low-level violence there, it most definitely was Germany's recognition of Croatia - and all the memory of the Croatian Nazi atrocities - that fueled a full-scale civil war.

One might perhaps expect a naive young country to be insensitive to the implications of recognizing a government whose members included those with Nazi ties. But as Mr. Ischinger reminds us, Germany has no such excuse. The Slav's behavior was unjustified - but Germany's recognition of Croatia provided a justification for it in the minds of many who remembered the black shirt days.

I should add, Germany's unilateral recognition of Croatia.

The hypocrisy of the German government and its supporters is disgusting.

@ray

Where are the photos from?

Note from Ray: They are all labeled.

Thanks for holding him accountable.

I guess Yugoslavija ("South-Slavija") is Southern Europe for Mr Ischinger.

(I suck at geography, but Chechnya is definitely in Asia, isn´t it?)

I must agree with too true. And when all the history comes out, I'll be the Germans gave the green light to the Croatians long before the recognition. After that it was all out in the open.

@ fuchur

Chechnya is well to the west of the Urals

@ fuchur:

Chechnya is a Russian Republic and therefore a part of Russia. The section of Russia west of the Ural Mountains (of which Chechnya is a part) is in Europe. The section east of the Ural Mountains is in Asia.

So to answer your question, Chechnya is in Europe.

I think we need to wake up to the fact that European Socialists do not value Freedom. They don't even understand what the word means. I wonder how many in the "old societies" on the Continent think just like their ambassador.

@Jeff/Ray

Oops- as I said... I suck at geography :-|

I notice you haven´t addressed Yugoslavija? Does this mean you consider the idea that Yugoslavija is not Central, but South Europe, absolutely ridiculous?

Great posting, Ray! Maybe, Amb. Ischinger would like to add further qualifiers to his statement, such as, "virtually" no bloodshed, "since 1990" and "within a five mile radius of the Museum-Insel."

apparently mister ambassador claims that older societies have more of a say than younger societies. i suppose african tribal societies and chinese societies have more of a say than older european societies.
of course he implies that the changes in eastern and central europe don't have anything to do with the us involvement. the russians ran off from germany and poland and the baltic countries (and many more) because they were bored. in fact we should be grateful to them.

I think what the ambassador meant to say was:
"As older societies we tend to confuse senility with wisdom"

I always laugh when Europeans pull out the "old/young" card. They choose to mark our start date as the Declaration of Independence in 1776 and ignore the centuries before it (as though we all showed up in 1776). At the same time, they stretch their own history to the oldest Roman settlements, etc. Nothing like a double standard.

Since Germany was not unified as a nation until Bismarck did it in the 1870s, the US is the older nation. If we take the formation of the BRD as their start date, they are even younger.


The US remains the world's oldest surviving democracy with one of the world's oldest (if not oldest) constitutions.

Poor young stupid Ischinger...

Jan: "apparently mister ambassador claims that older societies have more of a say than younger societies. i suppose african tribal societies and chinese societies have more of a say than older european societies."

Indeed. For that matter, Chile and Peru would have more say-so than Germany, or even Egypt, given that their Inca civilization goes back more than 10,000 years!

mamapajamas: I think your point still holds, but your bit off in the time period. The Incas did not develop a distinctive culture until around 1200 AD (the Inca Empire only lasted about 100 years). But previous cultures that would be considered "civilized" did exist in the Andean regions as far back as between 3000 BC to 2000 BC.

In any case, they still beat the Germans by a lot!

Ischinger said central and eastern europe. all of these photos are from southeastern europe. you can say i'm playing with semantics, but there's a difference.

"when Europeans pull out the 'old/young' card"

It's like being lectured on how to run a business by someone who has a long history of failed ventures.

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