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"Recent" history is full of Germany being on the wrong side of world affairs. The masses in Germany have often been emotional and quite frankly... very wrong. Because of the history of WWI and WWII, Americans have, in the past, given the German population a bit of a pass on their extreme and pacifist views. However, with the Adenauer to Kohl years, at least German leadership was principled regarding their world view.

When was the last time that millions of Germans protested the foreign policy of and American president? Of course, it was during the Pershing missile deployment with Ronald Reagan. These "useful idiots" turned out to be so wrong, that the free pass, in terms of American sentiment, is long gone. The Germans I speak to now absolutely refuse to admit that they were wrong about Reagan, or acknowledge his role in the reunification. The best that they will say is that "Reagan was not the worst US President." What they really mean is that only Bush is worse!

The current coalition government in Germany is not providing principled leadership at all, and seem to have been as effected by the biased German media as the general population. Saddly, now there are very few voices of reason in positions of leadership in Germany today.

Achtung Deutschland! You voted into power rabid America-hating socialists who betrayed America, your erstwhile ally. This emptied America's reservoir of goodwill toward you, so Germany now is just another European pest, like France or Norway. Sie bildeten Ihr Bett, schlafen jetzt in ihm.

Reagan's acts during the cold war won it. But the Greens resent that, the communists were supposed to win, that is why the left was out in the streets in protest.

As a further dent to the Greens and the left it appears the Pope approved of the placement of Pershing missles in western Europe. Reagan sent a US mitilatry officer weekly to brief the Holy Father. "Though European leaders were "weak-kneed" about confronting the Soviet nuclear empire, Reagan won the Pope's support for matching the Communists nuke for nuke along the Iron Curtain, said Jim Nicholson, who served until recently as President Bush's ambassador to the Holy See."

It's good to see at least some of the German press are catching on to the truth about the Greens who are actually just teh same old Reds.

I fail to understand how mutually free men can have such an opposite interpretation of the facts of our lifetimes. I say this as a true neo-con, a former Clintonian Democrat. I do not believe in prejudice or bigotry, but what I find lacking in capital "L" Liberal thought today is an understanding of the responsibilities that Darwin insists be applied along with the FREE WILL OF MAN. There is no responsibility and accountability in "Liberalism" as the ideology is applied today. Therefore Reagan deserves no credit for the fall of Communist totalitarianism. Everything seems accidental until they want to specifically assign blame in the most arbitrary fashion. Truly a bankrupt ideology.

As much as the German gov't as played the anti-American card, one thing I guess we could keep in mind and be somewhat grateful for: the Germans did not shut down use of Rhein-Main Air Base in Frankfurt or Ramstein Air Base which were used to support the war in Iraq.

Many Americans will NEVER forget nor forgive the French for not allowing the US Air Force to fly over French air space on its way to bomb "Colonel" Qaddafi in Libya after the La Belle disco bombing in Berlin.

You have that right, Lemmy. I started disliking France at that specific point. They've shown me no reason to change.

One article is not enough! DIE ZEIT is an important player in Bush-bashing like SZ, FR, Tagesspiegel, Spiegel and so on. Here there is it again:

"Vereinte Nationen

„Elefant im Porzellanladen“

Die Kritik an der Nominierung von John Bolton zum neuen US-Botschafter in den Vereinten Nationen ist heftig. Nicht nur das demokratischen Lager hält ihn für ungeeignet - er gilt als Verfechter des Unilateralismus ... Die US-Demokraten, die dem Multilateralismus zugeneigt sind, zürnen über Bushs Bolton-Nominierung. „Wir brauchen jemanden, der an die Vereinten Nationen glaubt“, sagte das Ausschuss-Mitglied John Kerry. Der Demokrat John Biden, stellvertretender Ausschussvorsitzender, weist Vorstellungen zurück, wonach die Ernennung Boltons positive Auswirkungen auf die Vereinten Nationen haben könne. „Ich glaube eher, dass das so wäre, als würde man einen Elefanten in einen Porzellanladen schicken.“ Adrian Pohr"


DIE ZEIT was and still is part of this new attitude towards the US: When Bush visited Germany, we had to empty the streets to protect him, the media was full of agressive articles, demonstrations everywhere and when Putin is here, we see a childish Schröder laughing and smiling with Putin. Demonstrations? Where?

How will we change this atmosphere here again? I am reading some Middle East weblogs. "Israel" is always in quotation marks. The same hate against the US and Israel as here in Germany. Does the media realize where we are going to?

Does Adrian Pohr really know what kind of man Biden is? Did he ever listen to Biden or to Bolton to have an own opinion?

So I think, Josef Joffe did too less to stop this hate campaign here in Germany. Some good articles is not enough. It is not a game. It is not funny. It is 5 to 12.

'It is 5 to 12' and the clock keeps ticking away....

Quite possibly we should be asking...questioning, 'Have the values and interests of German foreign policy have been turned upside down' or are they simply be aroused, awakened, from another short slumber?


Gabi! Greetings to you and your husband from your American friend.

Look, this isn't just Germany. It's most of Europe and significant portions of the United States. Collectivism that eschews individual responsibility and achievement ultimately ends up distorting history in order to create a seamless cloth of the collective 'good'. 'Good' is not the same as virtue but those in the hive don't understand.

And what the hell is going on with this? (via LGF)
The Telegraph reports:
______________________
German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust

But prosecutors have declined to pursue further the case of Udo Voigt, the chairman of the far-Right NPD, who likened the RAF's raids to the Nazis' "final solution".

here's the link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/12/wdres12.xml

I'll repeat a point I made in an earlier thread: Schroeder is Germany's version of George Wallace. And, given that the Schroeder/Fischer axis now seems to be aligned, at least philosophically, with the NPD, can we officially now call it the Red/Green/Brown coalition?

I kind of like that title of the article, "Grobmacht Deutschland"!

Pamela - you posted -

German ruling says Dresden was a holocaust

But prosecutors have declined to pursue further the case of Udo Voigt, the chairman of the far-Right NPD, who likened the RAF's raids to the Nazis' "final solution".

here's the link

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/04/12/wdres12.xml

----------------------

Shocking stuff eh - but Peter Hasse ( of Boca Raton - as he kept reminding us ;) ) said exactly the same friggin thing on this site just days ago

He proposed that Harris of the RAF was the equal of Himmler

And I was the only one to confront this comparison as offensive

It has made me wonder - do Ray and Dave agree with Peter? Do most folks here agree with Peter?

In short - don't be surprised by the news you linked to above - it was proposed quite openly here in a similar way and elicited no response

Cousin Dave
>>I'll repeat a point I made in an earlier thread: Schroeder is Germany's version of George Wallace.

I laughed out loud when I read that. Not only would very few Germans understand the reference, there are damn few Americans who would!

For the German readers here, there is no place to start explaining the George Wallace reference. David and Ray don't have the bandwidth. Go google and get back to us.

But Cousin Dave, I predict you will be wrong in one respect. Wallace asked for forgiveness. Schroeder never will. Whatever you think of Wallace, he thought he was doing the right thing. Schroeder has never given 'the right thing' a thought.

Pogue

I lived on that Peter Haases thread for 2 or 3 days. Regarding the Dresden bombing, I posted that my father, a B26 pilot stationed in the UK (could not bomb Germany - the plane did not have range) absolutley thought the FIREbombing of Dresden was a war crime. He told me simple bombing would have been ok with him, but NOT the firebombing. Peter Haases declined to respond to my queries specifically, (e.g., what would he consider fair reparations for Allied war crimes? which he was very careful to assign to the Soviets). When he did finally answer that question he responded to 'Mike' and a lame response it was.

But I would like to politely take issue with your concern that the lack of confrontation by David, Ray or any of the rest of us confers agreement with anything anyone posts here. I can't and won't pretend to speak for David and Ray, but if I had a blog, the comments are the responsiblity of the commenters. And speaking for myself, sometimes I have to make dinner, scrub a floor or walk the dog. We all participate as much as we can when we can, but there is life off-line.

Best,
Pamela

Pamela, I don't assume that David, Ray or anyone else who failed to respond to such a statement agree with it - but it does make one wonder

If Peter has posted "the Holocaust never happened" you can bet it would have gotten more response - dog walking responsibilities be damned ;)

The lack of response leads me to think that Peters opinion on this matter was not all that controversial - I am open to correction if I am wrong

Do people think that equating Harris with Himmler is ok, a little wrong or very wrong?


As for firebombing - I must say that the difference between being blown apart with high expolosives, conventional or nuclear, or killed in a firestorm caused by incendiaries - is lost on me And HE bombs start fires too

And all of this kind of analysis enjoys the benefit of hindsight - while Himmlers actions were clearly evil at the time

With hindsight I can agree that Harris was wrong - that the resources employed by the Allies on this effort was mis-spent and that the Hamburg and Dresden could have been avoided - in hindsight

But they weren't warcrimes - and Peter is wrong as he can be about that

Best Rgds,
Paul

Thanks Niko - glad to know I am not the only one

btw that is an interesting article above - indeed one of the key questions I have been asking for many years now is how does the opposition to the removal of Saddam make europeans feel - proud???

Paul,

Here's one vote - Haase's comparison was offensive. Dresden may have been over the top - personally I think civilians are to blame tfor their nation's actions and they can suffer whatever consequences may come - but however horrific Dresdden was it cannot compare to an entire campaign of bombing.

There are bigger targets than one offensive comment. That may explain what you choose to characterize as tolerance.

Thanks Jim - I didn't mean to suggest most readers here agreed with those comments but I wanted to be sure

Some of you wonder if Ray and I would agree with Peter Haase's opinions on WWII, and in particular the Dresden bombings, since we didn't comment on his statements or even delete his comments.

To be honest, neither Ray nor I followed the discussion closely. It is an immens workload to produce fresh content on a daily basis and to manage comments. Peter had in the past been a valuable contributor to our comment section, and I simply assumed this to be the case in the latest threads as well, so I didn't check his comments.
And I don't want to check them now, just for time reasons.
Anyway, I think it's useful to hear the voice of a pro-American German who can tell about WWII from his own experience. His views are controversial, and I don't agree with him, but I think his statements add to the spice of our comment sections. Also, you're doing a good job fighting his positions.

Any discussion of the bombing of Dresden should consider the following statement by Air Marshall Sir Arthur Harris (apologies as I had posted this a few months ago but it appears that a re-posting may be helpful):

With the German army on the frontiers of Germany we quickly set up GH and Oboe ground stations close behind the front line and this ensured the success of attacks on many distant objectives when the weather would otherwise have prevented us from finding the target. At the same time the bombers could fly with comparative safety even to targets as distant as Dresden or Chemnitz, which I had not ventured to attack before, because the enemy had lost his early warning system and the whole fighter defence of Germany could therefore generally be out-manoeuvred.

In February of 1945, with the Russian army threatening the heart of Saxony, I was called upon to attack Dresden; this was considered a target of the first importance for the offensive on the Eastern front. Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front and it was considered that a heavy air attack would disorganise these communications and also make Dresden useless as a controlling centre for the defence. It was also by far the largest city in Germany-the pre-war population was 630,000 which had been left intact; it had never before been bombed. As a large centre of war industry it was also of the highest importance.

An attack on the night of February 13th-14th by just over 800 aircraft, bombing in two sections in order to get the night fighters dispersed and grounded before the second attack, was almost as overwhelming in its effect as the Battle of Hamburg, though the area of devastation -1600 acres - was considerably less; there was, it appears, a fire-typhoon, and the effect on German morale, not only in Dresden but in far distant parts of the country, was extremely serious. The Americans carried out two light attacks in daylight on the next two days.

I know that the destruction of so large and splendid a city at this late stage of the war was considered unnecessary even by a good many people who admit that our earlier attacks were as fully justified as any other operation of war. Here I will only say that the attack on Dresden was at the time considered a military necessity by much more important people than myself, and that if their judgment was right the same arguments must apply that I have set out in an earlier chapter in which I said what I think about the ethics of bombing as a whole.

David, thank you for valuing Peter's contributions to this forum. I'll go kick his ass on the new thread you just opened.

Love and kisses to you and Ray.

If one is to consider the definition of “total war” then the actions taken by the allies as it relates to Dresden is within that definition. It should be noted it was Germany who declared total war. So for the allies to fight the Germans within that context is both logical and sane.

I view the comments about Dresden two ways. First it is another attempt to portray Germany as the victim. Secondly one should not start wars they do not believe they can win.

As for the talk of war crimes, I find it the within reason for both the left and right in Germany to take this position. What other positions can they take that reflect both the Germany of today and the problems she faces? I cannot find any that would appeal to the normal German citizen or voter.

This is little more than a distraction effective as it might be for some.

Let us not waste time on actually trying to do something constructive when we have the spotlight that is both too difficult and too sane.


Germany deserved every bomb that fell on it. The indiscriminate bombing of cities (started by the Brits) was consistent with other total-war practices, such as unrestricted submarine warfare. Total war is totally awful, which is why it should be avoided.

In his autobiography, the American pilot Chuck Yeager, who flew P-51s over Europe as a twenty-year-old, says that towards the end of the war, with the Luftwaffe largely defeated, P-51s were landing in Britain with plenty of fuel and full ammo loads after flying escort duty for bombers. The USAAF brass noted these under-utilized military assets and assigned each fighter a 50-square-mile area in Germany to patrol after the bombers were out of danger. The fighter pilots were ordered to patrol their assigned area and "strafe anything that moved." As General Yeager put it to his buddy at the time, "If we're going to do stuff like this, we damned well better win."

Pacifists are right about one thing: war is bad. Unfortunately, the alternatives are sometimes worse, and that's where they miss the boat. (Of course, many in the modern "peace" movement aren't pacifists, they just support the other side.)

Thanks for the comments David - it is clear

Pamela - I got your back :)

Japan and Germany are both in the process of re-thinking and rewriting their histories.

If they chose to do so in a more sympathetic light doesn't it beg the following questions being asked by us and answered by them.
If Dresden was a war crime . . .
What was the blitzkrieg of Poland?
What was the invasion of Russia?
What was the unrestricted submarine warfare?
What were the death camps?
Ignoring who initiated the war, all are suddenly equivalencies ~ in light of the bombing of one city?

Granted, like most things passed off as progressive or liberal these days, it all makes perfect sense, as long as you don't think too much about it.
Seems to me some here are confusing mitigation of guilt through the venue of modern liberal victimization thinking, with an intellectual position.

Like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the unknowable about Dresden is, "did it shorten the war and ultimately save (Allied) lives?"
Not that I don't care about the civiliains/ people of Dresden, but war is always hell. I would be more sympathetic to the victimization of the "people" of Dresden if I didn't know that (unlike hussein, Kim, Castro, etc) Hitler ...
and his policies were elected into office.
An ironic and enlightening point of conversation now is how many of my German friends talk about their being "liberated from the Nazis."

Tyranno

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