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Jabba the Tutt:

I am not in the least "justifying" German attitudes at us because of Iraq. To the contrary, I agree with you. However, as a German speaking American I was just explaining how they look at it from the other side.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Mike:

The question was stated by "Helion" in this blog as to how East Prussia became part of the German empire.

Therefore my answer in form of the website on Prussian history.

This has nothing to do with today's claims by the expellees which stated in their Charta (already in 1950) that any form of revanche is being rejected by them.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

@Helion:

Oooh, under the nice cover of a "true historic interest", I find that you had ulterior motives which only thought of shooting down the true history of Prussia of almost 800 years ago. Of course, by adopting Polish propaganda on the subject which started with the Versailles Treaty and has never shown any let up. The reason is of course to deny the original native inhabitants of East Prussia any historical inheritence to the original Prussian population. Polish super nationalism and aggrandizement has been very well documented even by British historians. Your story about Poles having owned most of North Germany is a very old one and made them for a long time the laughing stock of Europe and even of historians in the States.

Sorry about that try but it won't work. The original Prussians suffered severe losses during the forced christianizing by the Teutonic Knights if they refused to adopt Christ as their only true God. They were by all means not "exterminated" for their Baltic langage survived into the 16th century.

Over a period 700 years, however, German became the dominating and chosen official language by all Prussians, whether they were of Baltic, Slavic or French origin. As a survivor of the Soviet/Polish genocide, I am proud to say that my family's forefathers were original Prussians themselves.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Niko:

The moment you became apologetic for Allied crimes against humanity which have long been admitted to be true, I know that we could not ever see eye to eye.

You obviously have stayed on a purist diet of WW II propaganda and there is no way that I would even try to convince you to think otherwise as long as you persist in using one crime to excuse another.

Normally, I don't even talk with people who condone terror bombings, mass executions or the gassing and murder of civilians with the flimsiest of excuses. That goes for Germans, Russians, Poles, Englishmen or even Americans. I consider people of that ilk to be on a too low a level of civilization to engage in a meaningful, scholarly discussion about wartime crime events in an unbiased manner without the usual childish tit for tat.

I gave you a chance but you missed it. Don't expect any comments from me to your posts anymore. I also might as well include some other people on this blog who have also not been able to outgrow WW II propaganda They know who they are.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

@Peter

In the words of a famous German:

Die Welt ist nicht für feige Völker da, nicht für schwache, und auch nicht für dumme. Die Welt ist für die Völker da, die sie sich nimmt!

Since the bombing of Dresden and whether it was a legitimate act of war has been a topic of discussion here, I would recommend reading "HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945 BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN" prepared by the United States Air Force Historical Division of the Research Studies Institute, Air University and published by the Air Force Historical Studies Office at https://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm. Their conclusions are:

a. Dresden was a legitimate military target.
b. Strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, underlay the bombings of Dresden.
c. The Russians requested that the Dresden area be bombed by Allied air forces.
d. The Supreme Allied Commander, his Deputy Supreme Commander, and the key British and American operational air authorities recommended and ordered the bombing of Dresden.
e. The Russians were officially informed by the Allies concerning the intended date of and the forces to be committed to the bombing of Dresden.
f. The RAF Bomber Command employed 772 heavy bombers, 1477.7 tons of high explosive and 1181.6 tons of incendiary bombs, and American Eighth Air Force employed a total of 527 heavy bombers, 953.3 tons of high explosive and 294.3 tons of incendiary bombs, in the 14-15 February bombings of Dresden.
g. The specific target objectives in the Dresden bombings were, for the RAF Bomber Command, the Dresden city area, including industrial plants, communications, military installations, and for the American Eighth Air Force, the Dresden Marshalling Yards and railway facilities.
h. The immediate and actual consequences of the Dresden bombings were destruction or severe damage to at least 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings; severe damage to at least 56 per cent of the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city’s non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings); destruction or severe damage to at least 50 percent of the residential units in the city, and at least some damage to 80 per cent of the city’s dwellings; the total disruption of the city as a major communications center, in consequence of destruction and damage inflicted on its railway facilities; and death to probably 25,000 persons and serious injury to probably 30,000 others, virtually all of these casualties being the result of the RAF area raid.
i. The Dresden bombings were in no way a deviation from established bombing policies set forth in official bombing directives.
j. The specific forces and means employed in the Dresden bombings were in keeping with the forces and means employed by the Allies in other aerial attacks on comparable targets in Germany.
k. The Dresden bombings achieved the strategic objectives that underlay the attack and were of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians.


For Peter:
It is unfortunate and a source of continuing sadness for one to be bereft of his homeland for so long. However if France should veto the Constitution on 5.29, Germany would be in a prime position to renegotiate the Russian Federation enclave. Just look at the amount and depth of work being done by German lawyers and academics on minority rights under EC law at various institutes and universities. Strangely enough this fascination happened in 1994/95. Considering the increased tendency for expansionist treaty interpretation by the ECJ or the ECHR depending on the legal avenue chosen, the matter of the existing German minorities in the Suedetenland, Pommerania, Prussia and Silesia should be resolved soon.

@Wolfinger

It is clear that the case of Dresden is not only to be defended by perpetrators but to be reviewed by neutral nations. The case for the bombing of civilians has been adjudicated by public world opinion to be without merit albeit some error by Allied intelligent sources is also to be blamed for it.

As of 1952, all U.S school books still wrote about the bombings in Germany that they were "mainly aimed at purely industrial centers".

Anyone who has seen wartime pictures of the inner cities of Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Duesseldorf, Dortmund, Munich Leipzig, Koenigsberg, Breslau, Bremen, Hannover, Aachen etc., etc. knows how "true" that was. Most older Germans dont have much of a problem with it since Germany also bombed other nation's civilians. In my opinion both were wrong.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

@ Helian

Your quote is most likely derived from a monster like Hitler. I would never call him "famous" however.

Here is another story regarding Poland. I knew personally survivors of this infamous event which is hardly ever mentioned in history books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromberg_Bloody_Sunday

After my experience on this blog, I am sure it will find many who empathize with "Polish suffering" or, better yet, who think it was well deserved in light of monstrous German crimes to follow.....

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida

Political coincidences?

It is interesting to observe that the German Government, people and media were in full support of the U.S. from 1945 until the late 1960ies.

Nobody talked about Anglo-American "terror bombings" from WW II and friendship clubs between American and Germans sprouted throughout Southern Germany. The overall feeling from both sides was that Germans and Americans shall never be caught on opposite sides again.

Then came the Vietnam War and many young Germans felt called upon to demonstrate for the Viet Cong which seemed to be a total insanity. Vietnam is of no particular interest to Germans and the German country side was still also divided by an infamous Communist death strip.

Not much later, came the challenge from the USSR with their upgrading of strategic missiles in central Europe. When America tried to follow suit, German youth went ballistic.

The final straw was the re-unification of Germany wich brought a flood of hard core Communist cadre into West Germany and poisoned German-American relations even more.

The conclusion is that the American government has done nothing to estrange Germany from us.

Yes, the sixty year long exclusive WW II play on the Holocaust on German TV (almost every week) was perhaps somewhat of an overkill. It naturally sparked some backlash from young people after 60 years since they themselves had nothing to do with it. Naturally, they knew very well the facts of it but they felt that in modern warfare both sides suffer unnecessary hardship from crimes which had long been declared unlawful by international convention.

Yet, even that does not fully account for current German-American tensions. I can cite an example from my own ezperience. The German Governmnet failed to defend the rights of its own German expelless from East German provinces at the same time that Germany turned politically to the Left and against American foreign policy interests at Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, etc.

I believe we should leave the Germans stew in their own sauce for a while. Their socialist economy is so burdened with insane social expenditures that German products become less and less price competive on the free world market. Their current friendship with the Russian bear is full of dangers since Russia is just about to resurrect Stalin as one of its greatest heroes.

Their Democracy is becoming more and more bound and gagged in defense of any conservative movement. If I were a German today, I certainly would not sleep too well.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

@ Peter Haase,

I don't find myself agreeing with Niko very often (usually he tells me to go away) but you have done it: Niko is absolutely right. For two discussion threats you have gone on and on about how you have studied history for the last 50 years and how wrong mainstream historians are (thereby ignoring that there are countless different positions on WWII bombings among mainstream historians). In every second or third post you point out that you were part of the US military. Wow, I guess that makes your opinions a lot more believable.

Hardly ever do you provide links that support your facts. The article in Wikipedia is 'disputed'. Was it you who wrote it? Well, maybe your son (who is, of course, East Prussian despite living in sunny Florida) provides me with more information. Indeed he does by linking to a website that features the full text of a book (published in 1940 by the 'Volk und Reich Verlag') called 'Polish atrocities against the German Minority in Poland'. Brilliant. The website's motivation is to draw attention to many old books that have (rightly) been forgotten:

"These books and essays all deal in some way with White solidarity and White Nationalism." Cool.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/


Bob:

Your empathy with the East Prussian people is well received. I also hope that with EU enlargement, Europeans as a whole will come to their senses and try to erase the last vestiges of inhumanity and violent nationalism remaining from WW II by replacing it with across the borders friendships and cooporation.

Good examples have been achieved by France and Germany many years ago about post war territorial disputes. It can be achieved by others too. We have learned from WW I that the willful redrawing of borders by victors without consideration of the territorial population ends in disaster. The best example in modern times was Yugoslavia.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Niko et al...

Why don't you people stop your whining and attacking anybody and anything who can give a different perspective on history? What is with your personal invectives and war time hatred?

If some of you are Europeans I am not surprised. However, if you are Americans, I am ashamed of this intolerance under the false cover of "patriotism".

GP

Phil:

I know that new news are hard to swallow - specially if some seemed to contradict long established wartime propaganda. It takes considerable effort to dig deeper and most people have neither the patience nor the interest to do it.

My years under Hitler have taught me once and for all to distrust all governments - especially when it comes to facts regarding the conduct of a war. If that bothers you - don't read my posts. However, if you are a truly unbiased historian, as I have met many fine specimen in the U.S - you'll love to hear more and recheck the facts yourself.

As for my "repeats" about personal experiences, I must apologize. I found that many replies to my posts had not read my introductory remarks when I dared to describe myself as a "laymen's authority" on European history of WW I and WW II. Consequently, I had to frequently repeat myself.

The only reason I became vitally interested in the subject is, that as a thinking person, I wanted to know all about how it came to the disasterous loss of my homeland. If that doesn't make a person think and travel all avenues to find the truth - nothing ever will.

Yes, my son and I have also included the B.S. of Nazi propaganda on rare occasion as a reference on some given subject. If it was used at all, it was clearly marked as such. It will be up to you to find morsels of truth even in that. And why should we not inciude it may I ask ? Is this knowledge too dangerous? Are we a nation that goes for book burning now?

(Btw, when Niko described himself as a "rightwing nut" on the last post, I am glad that he said it and not I.)

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Peter wrote - " gave you a chance but you missed it. Don't expect any comments from me to your posts anymore. I also might as well include some other people on this blog who have also not been able to outgrow WW II propaganda They know who they are. "


Oooh - I bet I am one of them

Pick me - pick me please ;)

As for WW2 "propaganda" - just say it one more time so we understand

Himmler = Harris - right?

Not Goering = Harris

Or say Hitler = sack of puss?

Where do I send the nickel to contribute to the monument for East Prussians who lost all thier confiscated estates, nice apartments ( former owners left without notice in 1939 - whats this thing on the doorjam? ) and slave laborers in 1945?

General observation:

I think it is very practical and a great time saving device when some of us not only contribute an opinion to this blog but also provide the immediate answer along with it.

>>>>Sorry, but wrong again! The Jewish Holocaust was not planned during peace time but during the war... (Peter P. Haase)

....... It started small with the Nuremberg laws , gaining it’s own momentum culminating in Krematoria 2 +3 in Auschwitz .

>>>>>>Even more precise, the "Final Solution" (i. e., the "Holocaust") was planned by top *Nazi officials during a top secret meeting at a Mansion near the Wannsee in Berlin in 1942. (Peter P. Haase)

....... Wannseeattendees were third tier Nazi officials who, in Nazispeak got aquainted with a road map to mass murder of 14 Million human beings – and they acquiesced!

>>>>>>>My remaining interest is that the genocide by the Red Army in Germany is not forgotten.... (Peter P. Haase)
...... Of the prewar ~ 84 Million Germans we may pick an arbitrary figure ‘X’ ,who have not randomly died as a result of war action but instead of intentional , brutalizing war crimes inflicted by individuals. Horrible as it unquestionably was – but it’s still a long way to ‘genozid’.

>>>>>>So far, as the expulsion of Germans goes, it carries its own unique characteristics in that it was the largest ethnic cleansing in the history of the world. (Peter P. Haase)

.....These ~ 2 Million German people were fleeing refugees . Neither their ethnicity nor their murder for ‘cleansing ‘ purposes was of overriding interest to or the objective of russian enemy forces.

>>>>>>2. I never "compared Dresden to Auschwitz" but the mindset of Harris and Himmler are pretty damn close since both had a plan to estinguish an entire people.

...... Harris was a military order taker ; Himmler was a criminal order giver. The latter , not the former , requires a ‘set mind’.

>>>>>What I often find completely hypocritical about Germans and the Holocaust is that they have first hand experience with the powers of a dictator, but they have never done so much as a thing to stop them anywhere, anytime since 1945. (James)
>>>>>>Why do the free men of Germany who have experienced the results of blind hatred and tyranny first hand not stand beside us? ( Tom Penn)

......Perplexing indeed!

>>>>>Directly guilty are those who voted for National Socialism and whose who did nothing to stop Hitler's policies. [...]
Germans could have revolted, or the General Staff could have staged a coup. ( PMB)

..... While all four points are certainly ostensibly ‘true’ , they also harbour a latent temptation to oversimplify ! There are many more grey tones in this black + white picture. ( i.e. the opposition to H.'s ruination of GER)

>>>>>>Is Germany collectively guilty for crimes against humanity by its government as many have repeatedly and falsely stated in this blog? ( Peter P. Haase)

‘Shell shocked’ Germans endeared themselves with the rejection of their psychological fetisch called ‘collective guild’ . Yet already in 1944 the Allies dropped tons of flyers over Germany ( still to be read in museeums), where they clearly stated, that they did not bear a grudge against the German people as such. The bombings were directed against their leaders to bring the war hopefully to a quick end.
A situation that mirrors itself in the Iraq situation . Peter P. Haas seems to support that: “we definitely did the right thing cleaning out the rats nest in Iraq”.

>>>>> Not according to international law and not according to the findings of the victors at the Nuremberg Trials.Those who persist in this wrong assumption are guilty of an unlawful opinion and historic revisionism. ( Peter P. Haase)

.... Here is a person in danger of loosing his footing. Peter fails to recognise perfectly natural gut reaction toward Germans and also fails to differenciate the fact, that nobody casts any historic blame on Germans born during and after the H.-aerea. His morale defence of perceived bias against Germans are in my opinion misguided justifications. Indeed , he goes even a step further by turning the table on himself :” [...] but you have to live with your own guilt in this matter - not I.” A case of still simmering 'Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung’ perhaps ;-).

>>>>> As a survivor of the Soviet/Polish genocide, I am proud to say that my family's forefathers were original Prussians themselves. ( Peter P. Haase)

..... If all else fails ....Call in the theatrics...

>>>>> Over a period 700 years, however, German became the dominating and chosen official language by all Prussians, [...] ( Peter P. Haase)

..... Who cares what happened in 'antiquity'? Mr. H. had no business whatsoever to demand a german sovereign land corridor bisecting a sovereign nation . Any other nation in their right mind would have rejected these absurd demands as well.

>>>>>... Polish propaganda ... Polish super nationalism ... laughing stock of Europe ... Soviet/Polish genocide ...
You know, Peter, I'd really like to believe that these were just cases of unfortunate choice of words, ( Niko)

.......I agree with Nikos sentiment. Those statements can not help but leave the impression of an artikulated revisionist . Same old same old – in fancy wrappings.

However I do recognise the fine line that a commentator has to toe who undertakes to point out unbearable hardships suffered by the German populus.And just been born at the wrong time at the wrong place should not deny those people a voice that speaks on their behalf. And yes it is a highly emotional theme that requires us to put our intellektual seatbelts on ... and cruise control ;-)


>>>>>>Allied crimes against humanity... you persist in using one crime to excuse another...... You obviously have stayed on a purist diet of WW II propaganda ...[...] ( Peter P. Haase)

..... Hmmm , did I hear some glass shattering?

>>>>>Since the bombing of Dresden and whether it was a legitimate act of war has been a topic of discussion here, [...]

...... My two cents worth : in view of the general abandonment of rules and codexes of international conventions , the meaning of word ‘legitimate’ retreats into ‘the fog of war’.
However, I feel ethically revolted by the inflicion of multiple stab- and burn wounds on a body already quivering in it’s deaththrows . This especially in view of the fact, that after the ‘famous bombing’ on Valentin’s Day , Dresden’s very own ‘shock-and-awe’ there had been an additional bombing with far greater force on an entity, that for all intents and purposes was completely devoid of even the slightest hint of military threat towards the conquerers. Claims to the opposite reside in the realm of phantasie in my humble opinion.
After all, Baghdad got one big hit, yet was not reduced as a whole to smoking smitheerines.

Information

Brief history on the largest expulsion in history by the well know American Professor of History De Zayas:

http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA


Dr. De Zayas only talks of 'expulsions' and everybody knows that they happened. You, Peter Haase, talk of 'genocide' which is something far worse. Let me just say that I feel very sad for most of my relatives who are originally from Silesia and who had to flee in 1944. Yet I am not sure they would have preferred to live in communist Poland. And call me a cold-hearted man but the reaction of the Poles towards the Germans(after loosing 20% of their population, around 40% of their national assets and had most of their cities completely destroyed) was sort of understandable.

Now going back to the link on your son's website. Apparently it covers the atrocities commited by the Poles against the Germans:

"Poles had been merrily slaughtering anything or anybody German since at least as early as April 1939, with smaller incidents stretching back to the close of WW I -- you haven't been told that by the Mass Media, or the fact that these atrocities were one of the main causes for the German invasion of Poland, something that was meant by the Germans to be a local solution to a local problem. Germany had already done the "right thing" by protesting in writing to the League of Nations literally dozens of times. The League of Nations did nothing, yet the problem had to be solved."

The Lessons to be drawn from the 'atrocities' (mentioned in a Nazi-Propaganda book): "KEEP YOUR HANDS ON YOUR WEAPONS, WHITE MAN!"
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm

I guess my question is: Do you agree with the two points I quoted above?
You have made some remarks that make me assume that you actually believe that Germany started WW2 because they had no alternative.

Peter P. Haase -

The only reason I became vitally interested in the subject is, that as a thinking person, I wanted to know all about how it came to the disasterous loss of my homeland. If that doesn't make a person think and travel all avenues to find the truth - nothing ever will.

When I listen to the expellee lobby, sometimes it appears to me as if they're not only promising to revoke the expulsion from a particular piece of land on Earth, they're also implying to revoke the expulsion from Paradise. In remembering our particular childhood environments we're all inclined to forget that they've already been fading while we saw them as eternal, and that no political campaign or government can revoke this very first expulsion in the life of every man. The only thing these mundane institutions can do is build a proper tomb where the memory can finally come to rest.

The historical Prussia died on March 21, 1933 when Hindenburg shook hands with Hitler in the Garrison Church in Potsdam. This church is now being rebuilt under an European Union reconciliation program, and though it will never be the same again. I suppose the only being here for which nothing has changed since the days of Frederick the Great is the Rote Waldameise in the Tegeler Forst. We build our world, and then the next generation moves on and builds the next one, only that the ants don't grasp for the stars in the course of the cycle.

Phil:

You must have missed my preceding posts. I refuse to talk to anybody who will not condemn mass slaughter and expulsion of people for any reason. It is called genocide or democide if generations of people are killed for their ethnic or religious background.

I live in a Jewish neighborhood of many thousands and many have suffered on an even larger scale like my people by being innocent of anything criminal. They have adopted a long time ago a similar attitude toward any signs of inhumanity.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Peter P. Haase's comments regarding the alleged justifications and ramping up for war with Poland really boil down to dressed up ,66 year old Nazi fabrications.

Anybody watching his kabuki dance should follow it with the British War Book in hand.
( http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:QdZ1Ly97vBYJ:www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/bluebook/blbkmenu.htm+british+blue+book&hl=en )

For every action follows a reaction. The expulsions were nothing more than a natural reaction. But you can not expell people who allegedly have fallen victim to genocide - you bury them.

Genocides have to have physical 'leftovers',like the over 260 sites we know of in present Iraq.
Had there been graves of German victims of mass murder on a 'genocidal' scale, Peter P. Haase would have long ago named the still existant locations, they would be a household name like the GUSTLOW catastrophy.
He has failed to name those places because there are none , what's left is a gross exageration which itself is insulting to the victims of real genocide.
Peter P Haas elevates terrible atrocities to 'genocidal' status . This artificial status is now to serve as catalyst to lend the expulsions more weight and /or counterbalance German genocidal activities.

A more counterproductive way to remind people of genuine German losses and sufferings can not be imagined.

heinzy:

Your request for names of the grave sites of German victims betrays an almost incredible ignorance and naivitee of the subject at hand.

The unmarked mass grave sites of 2.8 Million German victims are most likely shallow and scattered and located in the former East German territories (i.e., 1/4 of prewar Germany) annexed by Russia and Poland. Permission to search for their bodies to afford them a proper burial have been denied. It would amount to an admission on the part of Russia and Poland that these events occurred. The numbers of the expelles amounted to 12 Million Germans . The numbers of genocide victims amounts to 2.8 Million Germans. This just so there is no confusion between the two types of victims possible.

The genocide as well as the expulsion is documented in a White Paper contained in two large volumes which were published in English and German by the Federal Republic of Germany in the 1960ies. The Title: "History of the Expulsion of Germans from East and Central Europe." I am sure a copy can be found in the U. S. Congressional Library after the "Freedom of Information Act".

There is also a speech in Congress by the late Hon. Carrol B. Reece of Tennesse available. He took pains to describe the history of the event. His lengthy and detailed speech of 1950 is also available through the Congressional Record.

But you should not feel lonely. While living in the U.S., I have not found more than perhaps 15 people who were aware of this gigantic and tragic event in history. Hooray for a free press!

Seeing that the greater number of blog readers around here is not as well informed about the war in Eastern Europe as I assumed and recognizing that I do not have the time to argue over otherwise well established, historical facts, I must bid you all a friendly farewell.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton,Florida
USA

Just funny that even the 'Bund der Vertriebenen' does not talk about genocide and just because some Representative from Tennesse talks about Genocide, it does not become a historical fact.

what remains a fact is that your son's website links to racist websites and that you have indicated that you consider Poland very much responsible for the outbreak of WWII. You are not a historian but quite simply a revisionist who is, luckily for all of us, in a minority.

phil

Is listing the underlaying causes for war from the other side revisionist?? Is the inclusion of Nazi propaganda for the purpose of showing what was fed to the German people "racist"?

Then you better not watch any Nazi documentaries on the History Channel because it might affect your "mind". True history must be observed from all sides.

Below, the unbiased, scholarly look at genocide or democide of all kinds. Including those you seem to deny:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

"Is the inclusion of Nazi propaganda for the purpose of showing what was fed to the German people "racist"?"

The purpose of the link (which I will provide to you again because you don't seem to have read it) was NOT to show what was fed to the German people. Instead a book published by the Reich und Volk Verlag (!!!) is taken as the source to show that Polish people were responsible for the outbreak of WW2. Read other people's postings carefully before you have your opinion. Please please tell me if you consider this website to be of historically relevance or if you agree with me that it is a revisionist and racist website.
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm

As for your 'unbiased' link: It is not unbiased (there is no such thing as ultimate objectivity)
Rummel has coined the term democide and he has been heavily criticised on his methods:
"Professional historians point out that Rummel's methods of calculating death tolls are highly controversial. He compares the statistical data before and after a crucial date and derives conclusions about the number of killings that had occurred in between. However, he fails to establish evidence of the actual killing. His results are essentially based on statistical data which are highly prone to errors." http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Democide&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1

So Rummel just assumes that an increase in fatalities amount to 'democide' with no proof of the actual killings. Furthermore it is left out that the expulsion of the ethnic Germans started during the war so it is difficult to establish not only if someone was killed or if he died but also it is not established how many died due to acts of war (which was still going on during the start of the expulsions)

Don't claim to have an unbiased and factual view of history.


phil

You fall into the same trap of denial as so many who deny the Holocaust. No amount of proof will ever be good enough for you until you can see and smell the dead bodies for yourself. You are pathetic.

This cadaver-accounting, haggling over the exchange rate between Auschwitz and Dresden is almost funny. But it gets us nowhere. As far as I'm concerned, World War 1 is Act I and World War 2 is Act II in a bloody tragedy called the suicide of Europe. The precise plot and starring roles don't interest me. What does is Act III, which we are watching now. For an American descended from that exasperating & foolish continent, it's hard to walk away. But maybe it's time to. I hope the Germans, French, whathaveyou, whathaveyou, take their heads of out their asses, and sooner rather than later, but I doubt they will.

What is pathetic is the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that historians don't speak with one voice and that Rummel's claims are heavily disputed.
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously.

Now its not a Genocide - but a Democide?

Is this a new word created for East Prussians?

Peter provided this:

----------------------

( DIS ) Information

Brief history on the largest expulsion in history by the well know American Professor of History De Zayas:

http://www.meaus.com/Expulsion_of_Germans.html

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA


-----------------------


Um - you have been told 48 times already Peter that even if all 12M Germans were expelled - its still only 2/3'rds the size of the actual largest expulsion - the Indo/Palistan exhanges in 1947

Can you at least make this clear? or does the suffering of the East Prussians have to be the greatest in world history in some catagory?

LGF: Nazi-Islamic ties exposed in Boca Raton, Florida

URL: http://www.fr-aktuell.de/ressorts/nachrichten_und_politik/nachrichten/?cnt=664452

Arabische Länder wollen nicht zwangsdemokratisiert werden
Auch gemäßigte Kräfte lehnen den Einfluss des Westens und militärische Interventionen ab / Gesellschaft wandelt sich allmählich
VON MICHAEL LÜDERS (BERLIN)

... Handelt es sich bei dem anhaltenden Terror somit um das letzte Aufgebot von Dschihad- und Saddam-Milizen?

"Das Problem liegt tiefer", glaubt Abdel Barri Atwan, Chefredakteur der in London erscheinenden Zeitung Al-Quds al-Arabi. "Die Milizen mögen über kurz oder lang an Unterstützung unter den Sunniten verlieren. Doch die Abneigung gegen den gewaltsamen Demokratie-Export in die arabische Welt nimmt zu, auch unter gemäßigten Kräften." Sie lehnten nicht Demokratie als Staats- und Regierungsform ab, aber "die Araber sind es schlichtweg leid, ständig große Worte zu hören, im Alltag aber zu erleben, dass Europäer wie Amerikaner in erster Linie die Durchsetzung eigener machtpolitischer Interessen meinen", sagt Atwan.

Beispiel Ägypten: Die Bush-Administration gratulierte der Regierung von Hosni Mubarak zu ihrer Bereitschaft, bei den nächsten Parlamentswahlen mehrere Parteien zuzulassen; diese Entscheidung sei unmittelbar auf den demokratischen Aufbruch in Irak zurückzuführen. Wahlen mit mehreren Parteien sind jedoch bedeutungslos, solange es keinen gleichberechtigten Zugang zu den Medien und keine Meinungsfreiheit gibt. Die Pluralität bleibt folglich von oben gelenkt und somit Fassade.

Kaum jemand in Ägypten geht davon aus, dass Washington Einwände erheben wird, wenn Präsident Mubarak die Macht in einigen Jahren an seinen charismatischen und politisch talentierten Sohn Gamal übertragen wird. Mit Demokratie freilich hat das nichts zu tun.


(An dieser Stelle frage ich mich, inwiefern dies ein Beispiel dafür sein soll, daß der Westen bzw. die Amerikaner zu viel intervenieren. Hier fordern die Araber doch gerade ein Mehr ein, mehr Hilfe, mehr Intervention, wenn eben Mubarak seinen Sohn als Nachfolger bestimmen will.)

In diese Kerbe schlägt auch der jüngste "Arabische Bericht zur menschlichen Entwicklung", der von den Vereinten Nationen herausgegeben wird. Er kritisiert das erlahmende Reformtempo in den arabischen Ländern, findet aber auch klare Worte an die Adresse der "führenden Weltmächte". Sie neigten dazu, Menschenrechtsverletzungen in von ihnen protegierten Ländern zu beschönigen, solange diese Länder ihre Interessen nicht bedrohten. Auch die Lage in Irak beurteilen die arabischen Autoren der Studie anders als die USA: Die Diktatur Saddam Husseins sei zwar beseitigt, dem Land eine neue Perspektive eröffnet worden. Doch gleichzeitig fiel Irak "unter eine Fremdbesatzung, unter der die Menschen noch stärker zu leiden haben". Die anhaltende Besatzung Iraks und der palästinensischen Gebiete schaffe einen Nährboden für immer neue Gewalt.

Die Stimmung in der arabischen Welt in einem Satz: Demokratie ja, aber nicht mit Hilfe militärischer Interventionen aus dem Westen. Als langfristig Erfolg versprechender gilt es, die in den jeweiligen Ländern vorhandenen Reformbewegungen zu unterstützen. ..."


[ document info ]
Copyright © Frankfurter Rundschau online 2005
Dokument erstellt am 19.04.2005 um 17:12:31 Uhr
Erscheinungsdatum 20.04.2005


Jetzt sei es schlechter als unter Saddam??? Ich kann mir nicht vorstellen, daß das die Meinung der Mehrheit der Iraker ist.

Lüders erklärt schon wieder, daß "BESATZUNG" Terror erzeugt.

Einfache Antworten von einfachen Geistern. Mir ist unbegreiflich, daß dieser schlichte Unsinn in allen linkslastigen Medien propagiert wird.

Siehe Israel.

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