« Pope John Paul II Died at Age 84 | Main | Warning Labels for Biased Articles? »

Comments

Peter,
Please see the following re Brest-Litovsk.
Thanks.
Mike
**************************
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

Russia's new Bolshevik (communist) government renounced all claim to Finland, the future Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania), Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and the Turkish districts of Erdehan, Kars, and the Georgian district of Batumi.

Most of these territories were in effect ceded to the German Empire, intended to become parts of that empire under different Germany-dependent kings and dukes. Regarding the ceded territories, the treaty stated that "Germany and Austria-Hungary intend to determine the future fate of these territories in agreement with their population", with few other effects than the appointment of German rulers to the new thrones of Finland, Latvia and Lithuania.
**************************


@ Jimmy

Please, when it comes to "guilt" for starting WW II, I have already discussed the situation at length. The only way to blame the entire German nation for this would be if they had elected Hitler in 1933 after he had announced that "he would start WW II and kill 6 Million Jews in the process." I can guarrantee you that nobody would have voted for him. End of discussion?

Obviously, none of that was true since Hitler ran on a platform of "Peace in a new Europe". Little did Germans know what he meant by a "new Europe". Later, he mentioned repeatedly that he wanted to regain the illegally annexed German territories since German citizens were forced to adopt foreign citizenship in them.

Most nations on earth would have agreed with him and so did the Germans. The only problem was that most Germans did not suspect in any way "how" he might want to achieve that until ..... he commanded German troops to march across the Polish border in answer to Polish sniping.

Btw, neither I nor any expellee I know has ever asked for "punishment" of Russians who committed the East Prussian Holocaust but I have prayed for the souls of those who committed these unspeakable crimes for many hours.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

@ Mike,

Thanks for the correction on the peace treaty of Brest Litovsk.

All I know is that Germany had no particular real benefit from it when compared to Poland. The key issue of the treaty - seems to me - is that these non-Russian populations were to decide their own fate in the future. I can live with that.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Peter,

You should, if possible, read Fritz Fischer's "Germany's Aims in the First World War." Fischer's thesis is that Germany would have treated the western countries quite harshly had she won the Great War, similar to her treatment of Russia in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk. Belgium, for example, would have been as "free" as the Russian part of Poland. Unfortunately the English translation is out of print. The original German version "Griff nach der Weltmacht" is still in print and can be easily purchased in Germany. I believe that this is considered one of the most important historical studies in Germany since World War II; that it is still in print more than 40 years after publication would seem to confirm this.

Just for a break: A lovely thought from the US frontline in Irak ;-)

From the desk of our President

My Fellow Americans:

As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed.

Since Congress does not want to spend any more money on it this year, our mission in Iraq is now complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short.

The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.
The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those governmentleaders grow fat on corruption.

Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France.

In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth.

Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe
China.

To Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo, boys. Work out a peace deal now. Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too. I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.

I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change.

Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil.

Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now. We are tired of the one-way highway. It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin."

Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America. To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget.

To the nations on List 2, a final thought. Drop dead.

God bless America. Thank you and good night.

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.


@pamela

The average German may not have known of the plans in the beginning, but don't tell me they didn't catch on during the war. Where did they THINK all the Jews went? Madagasscar?

Pamela, without wanting to excuse any of it:

The grand scale deportations (and ensuing annihilation) of Jews didn't start until as late as 1942. (To be more precise: isolated deportations of German Jews took place as early as 1940 but the "Final Solution" was conceived by Himmler and Heydrich upon the order of Göring in January 1942 [Wannsee-Konferenz]. Mass scale annihilation in Auschwitz and other concentration camps started around the same time).

By 1942 most of Germans were troubled by already a year of British bombing raids. The first 1000 bomber air raid on Cologne falls into the same time slot as the beginning of mass extermination in Auschwitz.

I am sure most people had an inkling of something terrible happening to their disappearing Jewish neighbors. Some had heard "things" through aquaintances, but facing your own hardship it is somwhat natural that you'd conveniently file this under "rumors". I doubt, the average German conceived of the magnitude of things. Which doesn't lift them off their responsibility of course, especially as I am sure many Germans secretly welcomed the "removal" of their Jewish neighbors out of greed and envy. Sentiments which BTW weren't particular German these day. I recently watched Claud Lanzmann's "Shoa" documentation again (IMO the one and only feature on the Holocaust which one HAS to see at least once), and was flabbergasted by those interviews with Polish peasants who lived in the immediate neighborhood of Auschwitz -- and who basically did and felt nothing.

Plans like Eichmann's initial Madagaskar solution didn't surface well until after the end of WW2 and could not possibly have been public knowledge in such a close-lit society.

Again, not trying to excuse things. Just trying to understand.

@rofe
And trying to rewrite the history books decades later deserves to be discredited immediately.

Nobody in Germany is trying to rewrite the history books, nor is there a Grand Strategy to vicitimize ourselves. While it might come to a thesis worthwhile considering, the original post by D.L. bases its (forgone) conclusion on claims which are unsubstantiated if not utter nonsense. Germans feeling they suffered *especially* under Americans? Come on, this is ridiculous.

I'll try to comment on that in detail later.

1942 in Germany: Who knew what and when?

Of course, everybody in Germany knew of "KZs" or concentration "labor" camps. Officially, there was very little talk about them. But people used to say, "Be careful what you are saying or they (i.e., the GESTAPO or Geheime Staatspolizei)will put you into the "KZ".

Concentration Camps were pictured naively at the time through rumors alone to be labor and political re-education camps holding approximately 100,000 enemies of the German Reich. Inmates were supposed to be for the most part leftist Jews, criminals and others (like homosexuals and Communists).

Basically, these people were considered traitors who were leftovers from attempted pro-Communist revolutions in Germany after WW I (see: The Soviet Republic of Bavaria.) Especially, Communists were considered dangerous since Soviet Russia was bordering directly upon Germany and the bloody political and ethnic cleansing under Lenin and Stalin had scared the average German citizen out of his/her wits. If Germany would also have a home grown variety of this deadly political disease of Communism, how easily could they start an alliance with the grandest killer of them all - i.e., Joseph Stalin?

The only political party in Germany who had clearly marked the Communists as enemies of Germany was the Nazi Party. The other democratic parties gave lip service in speeches against Bolshevism but were too weak to be an effective counter force.

Of course, Germans had in general no idea about what was really going on in concentration camps. Camps were cleverly located in isolated forest regions or in distant German occupied countries of Eastern Europe.

This fact may be proven by two occurances:

During the heavy bombing of Germany toward the end of the war, it was an expression of dark humor in Germany to say, "why don't I say that we cannot win the war and be safe from air raids in the concentration camp?" (If people had really known what was going on in those camps, they would hardly have made fun of it in this particular manner!)

Another proof that Germans did not know of the genocide in those camps, was the difficulty the Allies and the new West German government encountered trying to convince the average German citizen of the fact that these killer camps, in fact, really existed.

Finally, the US Army forced German citizens from nearby towns to walk through such death camps in Germany. The people were speechless about the horror they witnessed and the mayor of one town committed suicide because he no longer wished to live after such crimes had been comitted in the name of his beloved country. One finds even to this day some denials about the existence of Concentration Camps throughout the world. In today's Germany, people are punished with a jail sentence if the express even a slight doubt about it.

I would add that good parallels to this could be drawn today in Russia. Soviet occupation of Germany started with a blood bath of genocide. 2.8 Million German civilians in the provinces East Prussia, West Prussia, Silesia and Pommerania were raped and murdered.

Russians were kept totally ignorant of these facts to this very day. Russia has not made the same effort in the post Soviet period, like Germany after Hitler, to educate her own people about genocide of the innocent in their name.

Now, was there an anti Semitism in Germany under Hitler? Of course and most certainly there was. Even before Nazi Germany, the country had showed some anti Semitism but probably less than Poland or equal to France. Preferrably, it was linked to Bolshevism so as to make the accusation of Jews as enemies of the nation more believable. (Unfortunately, many prominent, intellectual Jews were also Leftists and as such made many enemies when Germany was down and this basically conservative, monarchial society suffered from shame of losing the war and the hatred of enemies who designed the publicly rejected Versailles Treaty.)

It was a time when political extremism from the left and the right rode high, thereby leaving the middle class in Germany with little to chose from a parliament with over 30 largely incapacitatet parties.

The analysis of another writer in this blog is also true: A nation who barely exists on the brink of exstinction by constant bombing and genocide, develops a "Weltuntergang" psychosis. I. e. It cares little about itself or others since instant death might come to all of it - more sooner than later.

I hope this account of my observations will not be interpreted as an excuse of crimes committed against humanity by any guilty party. It is only to serve for a better understanding amongst nations whereby each reader may draw his/her own conclusions.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

About judging history, I don't know off hand who wrote this but it sounds true:

"True history of a major human conflict is usualy written one hundred years after the fact. That is, after those who were involved have died and it becomes safer to judge victors and vanquished with the same, unbiased measuring stick."

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

tn -

Nobody in Germany is trying to rewrite the history books, nor is there a Grand Strategy to vicitimize ourselves.

That Joschka Fischer failed does not mean that he wouldn't have tried exactly this three years ago.

Peter stop whinging about the expellees....Poland is now part of the Eu you can go back there on your german passport and live, work and buy land. What about the Scottish Highlanders descendants that are PERMANENTLY EXCLUDED from the EU despite their ancestors being forced off their land at gunpoint for NOTHING

Peter -

The only way to blame the entire German nation for this would be if they had elected Hitler in 1933 after he had announced that "he would start WW II and kill 6 Million Jews in the process." I can guarrantee you that nobody would have voted for him. End of discussion?

And if Arafat would have been that open about his ambitions, he might not have become the darling of the United Nations. What has changed since Genghis Khan are literacy and media. Unlike then, now evil must rename itself. Only in the fairy tales it comes unmasked. However, such masks are quite comfortable because they help avoid panicking. If Germany would have to develop a realistic perception of the current global security situation, it would have to face the fact that yet one single false decision in the WMD negotiations with the Ayatollahs of Iran can lead into total thermonuclear annihilation.

@leo

That Joschka Fischer failed does not mean that he wouldn't have tried exactly this three years ago.

What has the Middle East with its very own problems to do with the topic we are discussing her?

@Peter

I would add that good parallels to this could be drawn today in Russia. Soviet occupation of Germany started with a blood bath of genocide. 2.8 Million German civilians in the provinces East Prussia, West Prussia, Silesia and Pommerania were raped and murdered. Russians were kept totally ignorant of these facts to this very day. Russia has not made the same effort in the post Soviet period, like Germany after Hitler, to educate her own people about genocide of the innocent in their name.,

I'd be careful to throw the word "genocide" around that much, because you are indeed nearing terrain which is usually occupied by hardcore revanchists in that you bring this topic anywhere in the neighborhood of the Jewish Holocaust. I think we all agree that the latter -- the planned dehumanization and conveyor-belt-style killing of 6 million people based on nothing more than a disdain for their racial heritage/religious belief -- is a singular event that finds no parallel whatsoever in human history, and shall never be weighed up against anything.

The Russian push into Germany was a completely different thing altogether. That there were excesses is undeniable (and unexcusable), but these are the "collateral damages" of any war -- especially a war that -- on both sides-- is conducted in such an extreme fashion.

Let's not forget, that Russia payed the highest death toll in this war. 20 Million. Twice the number of people killed in WW1 on all sides. Not to mention the total destruction of infrastructure and cities, and the first mass exterminations of Jews behind the frontlines through the so called "Einsatztruppen" (task forces). Many of the soldiers who pushed into Berlin had lost their entire family due to the German invasion. They were pissed, and rightfully so.

To : Tn

I am sorry but you start again with the age old method of trying to "justify" one crime with another.

That is something that ever since 9/11 is now rightly called "relevating" various guilt factors with each other to negate at least a greater part of the guilt on one side.

As I said before, that is not the way international law works. Each case of "crimes against humanity" is adjucated separately since it is a summation of crimes by one side against "innocent" civilian victims of another.

I must further reject your assumoption that the Russian genocide of German civilians (and that is what it is called by historians) was up until then a "byproduct of every war." As the largest expulsion of peoples from their homeland, is was at least in that category alone the greatest crime in recorded history.

I understand that the word "Holocaust" has for some of us a unique meaning but it has entered the common vocabulary world wide as a descriptive term for a particular hideous form of the mass existinction of human life. Not least of all, because it has been used so frequently during the 60 years since WW II in America as well as in Europe. As such, it is not a detraction from the horrors of Nazi extermination camps. Including the rape, murder, crucifiction and general slaughter of 2.8 Million German civilians under the same heading might be sensitive to some but it is becoming largely accepted as a general description for similar crimes who might not have employed the hideous "factory method". However, these crimes were in their nature of individual torture and slaughter no less horrible and painful than the gas chamber for the same singular reasons of victims being innocent but for their particular ethnicity.

As a civilized people, we should oppose and demand justice for all human mass exterminations and not get involved in finding possible excuses for perpetrators or comparisons as to "which victims might have possibly died a more horrible death."

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

I am sorry but you start again with the age old method of trying to "justify" one crime with another.

Peter, we won't agree on that issue. A genocide is the planned and concrete extermination of one people. While Russian atrocities in East-Germany were despicable and resulted in millions suffering it was never in the plans of Soviet leadership to get rid of all the Germans on the face of this Earth. It was, however, in the planning of the Nazis to get rid of every Jew on the face of this earth. And without any reason other than the ones I already mentioned. Of course, in the end being killed by a bullet or by gas doesn't make a difference, but at least to me in motivation and in consequence there is a clear moral distinction. To paraphrase it, there is a difference between me killing your wife because you killed my wife and me killing your wife just because I didn't like her nose.

As I tried to say further above, Russians had more than one reason to kick German ass after what Germany had STARTED in Russia. About what German troops did in Russia you curiously seem to not care the least bit. Squeezing people in a church and setting it ablaze, burning people alive, starving them to death (Millions of POWs alone), throwing babies against walls, looting villages, cities and killing about 1 Million of Russian Jews in mass excecutions are only some of the fine things they did there. By your measure this should be called a genocide as well, yet all you obsess about are German refugees.

I agree with you in so far, that no other nation involved in WW2 has undergone such an effort in "Vergangengeitsbewältigung" as we Germans did. The victorious nations didn't have to (as history is written by the victors), but nations such as Japan, Hungary, Romania, the Ukraine and Italy -- all of which have been involved in some way on the Axis side -- have curiously not gone down that road, and conveniently hid behind the mountain of guilt Germans had heaped up. Even a country like Austria from which a good bunch of high ranking Nazis derived (including Adolf himself) pictured herself in the role of the victim after the end of the war.

That's also why I largely disagree with D.L.s original post, that a grand scheme of cleansing ourselves from our past is underway, since for the last 50 years the overwhelming part of German society does nothing but acknowledge the fact that we are responsible for the whole mess. It still doesn't spare us (younger ones -- i am born 1964) from being held responsible. Go to Holland or certain parts of France and you are but a sibbling of Nazis. A couple of years ago some Dutch people -- my age -- told me Rotterdam was such an ugly city because "you bombed it". "You", not as in a general "you Germans", but you as in pointing-their-fingers-at-me-you.

Alas, that's something we have to live with. And now some other dude comes along and tells me I am not allowed to investigate "our" side of things, because that means that I am part of a grand scheme of Germans to "rewrite history". Again, I'll try to comment on that in detail later, but I need to work a bit now.

to: Tn

I am sorry that we cannot agree on that issue since international law is quite clear on that subject (see:Milosevic and Kosovo.)

I must correct your assumption on the basis of historical facts that "the ethnic cleansing in East Germany was not planned by the Soviets whereas the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis was." East German ethnic cleansing was planned by the Soviets quite well after the Teheran conference.

Before Soviet troops entered Germany, Vodka was freely distributed amongst the troops and the Soviet Poet, Ilja Ehrenburg, was the originator of Millions of leaflets dropped upon the Red Army.

I paraphrase here the content of such leaflets which called for "Soviet heroes to enter the lair of the Fascist beast with only thoughts of utter revenge for the suffering of the Motherland." It called equally for the breaking of "pride" amongst Fascist womenhood as well as for the exstinction of the Fascist brood (i.e. children.) Only Hitler called publicly in one of his speeches and in sight of a lost war for the mass exstinction of Jews in the same brutal fashion. Alexandr Soltzenystin was a major in the Red Army at the time. When he saw the magniture of the merciless slaughter of countless German civilians by the Red Army he wrote the dark poem "Prussian Nights". He was promptly thrown into a Siberian Gulag for daring to criticise this inhumanity.

Many say today , that this slaughter of part of a nation even exceeded the term Genocide and should be more appropriately called "democide". This would also apply to the Jewish Holocaust!

If you find excuses for this kind of warfare, it might be that many people in Germany have lost the proportional ability to judge international crimes without self inflicting bias. After all, the country has been driven into such deeply felt depression and guilt for sixty long years that this seems almost suicidal to us Americans.

If you require more information on the subject I suggest you refer to my son's (Nicholas Immanuel) website:

http://www.nicholashaase.com/

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

as an aside..
compare the treatment the Germans received by the Soviets compared to the Americans.
now.. look to see who they complain about the most.
Putin and Schroeder are great pals..

tn -

What has the Middle East with its very own problems to do with the topic we are discussing her?

Remember that on the eve of WWII there was Munich. If the German proposal to replace the IDF in the Palestinian territories with United Nations "peacekeepers" would be implemented, then the Islamists would offer Germany to collectively convert to the green religion to be forgiven its historical sin. Then we could with good conscience slaughter all the "zionazis" here and in the New World, just before we sacrifice ourselves in revolutionary suicide. Hitler is dead but his spirit is still haunting this world. The confederacy of tyrants in the United Nations can play Musical Chairs with history, and single out which nation to put on the Eichmann chair. Just rememeber that on the eve of this war, there was Durban.

Peter -

I understand that the word "Holocaust" has for some of us a unique meaning but it has entered the common vocabulary world wide as a descriptive term for a particular hideous form of the mass existinction of human life.

The left does not explain the meaning of the singularity of the Holocaust, but as a space engineer you should know what a singularity is. Once you cross the event horizon, there's no escape from being completely sucked in. If the Holocaust could have been completed, by sacrificing the Jews the Nazis would have won global infallacy in crime. This is a dangerous cultural by-product of the murder which did not emerge from genocides that were driven by materialistic interests rather than by the spirit of human sacrifice. And the mundane genocides did not leave death cults which continue independently even after the actual death camps were long dismantled, but the Holocaust did.

To Leo:

You wrote," And the mundane genocides did not leave death cults which continue independently even after the actual death camps were long dismantled, but the Holocaust did."

In answer, let me paraphrase Milosevic, ex president of Yugoslavia, because he said it best after his defeat at Kososvo,"I don't understand all this exciteemt about removing a few hundred thousand people from Kosovo. At the end of WW II, 12 Million Germans were driven off their land and 2,8 Million were killed but no country made ever an international issue of it"....

Injustice unresolved - will be repeated - even if the people and countries involved carry a different name.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

Peter - And he was wrong, his actions were made an international issue. The Balkans are Islam's springboard for jihad against Europe, such as the Caucasus is that against Russia, and as soon as Milosevic targeted Muslims it was international.

Leo:

You must have misunderstood.

When Milosevic made the remark about being astounded by international reaction to his own misdeeds in Kososvo, while it had failed during the larger expulsion of peoples from East Germany (which was incomparably greater by tens of Millions), he proved exactly my point.

It showed, contrary to your assumption, that what you called "mundane" genocides have, in fact, mestatized and developed into a death cult by other nations.

Again, Kosovo was a case in point, since that ethnic cleansing took place exactly because the preceding expulsion of Germans was never penalized or even protested.

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

It seems that this thread of conversation has reached its end.

The one thing I want to make very clear as a German/American. It is to re-assure my countrymen as well as German citizens that East German Expellees have shown an almost super human patience after they were most brutally expelled from their ancient homeland.

Most observers felt at the time that they would be an immediate threat to a democratic Germany. Most feared that those who had lost everything would fall for the siren call of extreme Nationallism or Communism. The latter was Stalin's ultimate plan to drive a wedge between a still normally functioning West German population and the Germans from East Provinces who had been reduced to live by the living standards of 300+ years ago.

The refugees/expellees did not fall for this siren song. They opted instead en masse for a free, united, democratic Germany in the hope that international human rights would be realized for those who would chose to return to the country of their forefathers.

So far, the latter has been denied or made impossible by red tape.

You'd be the judge if this is acceptable under the UN Charta?

Peter P. Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

What you're talking about is a continuity of the same type of war crime (that's why I threw in the Caucausus), not a continuity of letal resentment against the same group of victims remaining after the end of the crime. There's no ideological movement to genocide the Germans runnick amok in Eastern Europe or elsewhere in the world (other than Islams generic threat against all infidels).

You'd be the judge if this is acceptable under the UN Charta?

The Palestinians are the only refugees in the world who are granted a collective and inheritable right of return by the United Nations. That's why Palestinians are born in refugee camps. I'm glad I'm not.

See commentary on the Durban conference above.

Leo:

As is said a few times before, each case of crimes against humanity must be adjudicated upon its own merits!!

Comparisons to much smaller events of criminal behavior are interesting and justified in their own right for their informative value but these events cannot even compare to the larger issues at hand. These are either the Jewish Holocaust or the democide or expulsion of East Germans from their ancient homeland.

Peter P, Haase
Boca Raton, Florida
USA

We closed the discussion section of this posting because of capacity concerns (loading time).

Please continue this discussion here.

Thank you.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

June 2022

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
      1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30