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"I don't believe the German public hates Americans, I rather tend to believe they're just envious - or maybe even a tad bit jealous."

I suspect it's about 95% biological. Read Ardrey's books and you'll see what I mean.

Here is a clip from the following Website

http://www.goethe.de/kug/mui/pre/ein/enindex.htm

"From a historical point of view, the licensing system of the western Allied Powers after 1945 still has after-effects. Thus Germany’s four big national quality newspapers, the Süddeutsche Zeitung (sold daily circulation in the first quarter of 2003: 430,000), Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (380,000), Die Welt (250,000) and Frankfurter Rundschau (185,000) still have strong regional bonds. The high circulation of regional newspapers with various local editions in conurbations like the Ruhr area, Cologne and Stuttgart is also characteristic of the German market. Besides the serious newspapers, which are sold mostly by subscription, the popular press is also significant. The market leader, Bild, sells four million copies daily.

Besides the quality newspapers, the weekly Die Zeit (456,000 copies a week) and the news magazines Der Spiegel and Focus, each with a weekly circulation of about one million, have opinion-forming positions. With qualifications, the same goes for the weekly illustrated Stern, which has a similarly high circulation."

Ok - now checking here -

http://www.mediainfocenter.org/magazine/size/avg_circ.asp

We can see that Time Magazine has a circulation of approx 4M and Newsweek about 3M

So - 80M Germans buy 1M Sterns
and 300M Americans buy 4M Times

Ah - now we have progress - it would seem these have similar reach as a percentage of population

Also some interesting stuff can be found here -

http://xserve.mpa.org.nz/?category=2&id=20

Who cares what Martina thinks; just tell us where we can get more photos of Sergeant Theresa Mazluf.
And maybe someone could send that pic to the marine recruiters.

I suspect it's about 95% biological. Read Ardrey's books and you'll see what I mean.

What's that supposed to mean, Helian? Don't make me call you names.

I've looked the whole thing over; if you take away the 'editorial content' added by Ray, it's not a all that bad article. The people Ray, and not Stern, has labeled as evil look like pretty symphatetic characters to me (although the drill instructor looks not all that appealing when put next to a babe in a skimpy bikini).


@ Ralf

Ardrey wrote a book called the Territorial Imperative. It says that people have a tendency to stick by their neighbors and kin and that the resulting cohesiveness of the group has survival benefits and so has become genetically programmed.

Now Ardrey is not a very profound sort, but group cohesion among primates is a pretty obvious fact. No need to get exercised.

Mike,

My point is that it is incredible that one who thinks and speaks that way could rise to such high office in the first place.

She's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't recall that she ever had made such a remark before. She simply was a good little leftist functionary for decades who made cabinet rank on the strength of her seniority.

Again, I simply cannot imagine any American Attorney General, Democrat or Republican, saying such a thing. I can't think of a similarly disgusting piece of rhetoric from a high-ranking American official, can you?

No, I can't either. Then again, she isn't nearly as qualified Tas they are, and the stupidity factor plays a part here, too; she really had thought that the remark would stay behind closed doors.


My understanding is that the Islamic party in Turkey actually supported the US, but the pro-Western, secular party did not. IMO, that doesn't make much sense unless Turkey was threatened by France and Germany. However, for the sake of argument, I'll withdraw that premise. I think my argument stands without it. (Admittedly, it's an emotional, not a logical, argument.)

I can think of another explanation: The government obviously had been warned by the Turkish military not to pull any stupid stunts, but the secular oppostion felt free to follow the populist sentiment and vote against letting the 4ID through.


The part about France and Germany vetoing Turkey's NATO request in Brussels is correct

Yes it happened, Mike, but not to get people killed. They really had seemed to think that they could stop the invasion (and as it happened this bdidn't get anybody killed).


Americans and Germans probably have more in common with each other than any other two nationalities that do not share the same language.

Agreed.

We've got to have a responsible, adult relationship. Germany and France should take the primary responsibility for security in Europe, at the very least. I hope that the next time a Milosevic starts death camps in Europe, France and Germany will stop him.

Too late, at this point nobody in Europe is able to call the shots, or dominate the EU, for that matter. And the reason why Milosevic wasn't stopped by us was that Europe was divided on the issue. Germany backed Croatia, while France and Britain were more on the side of Serbia for the first three years.


You know Gerd, your different world view is not necessarily cultural, considering German immigrants have contributed a great deal to what you would acknowledge as "American Culture." Point of fact all of Europe (and the world) has contributed to American culture. The problem is more of what you either choose to see, or the Media of your country chooses to show you of America. Maybe it isn't as black and white as you might think. Just as all conservatives aren't stupid and only think what Karl Rove tells them to.

An example...I am of Italian decent, my wife is from China. We're both Americans (I'm second generation, she is a citizen 10 years now). Both of us are educated, and go to church weekly. Both of us watch and read the news from a varity of news outlets (CNN,Fox, MSNBC for TV and NY Times, Wall Street Journal, Times of London for Newspapers etc.). We're just right of center in our politics, and after reading and thinking things through, we voted for Bush. We're not alone either. Alot of well educated and intelligent people voted for Bush too, otherwise the election would not have had Bush winning by a two percent majority.

Jeff,

thanks. helian, I take it back, I was simply too lazy to check up on Audrey.

@ Jabba
> Of course, it would be impossible to literally prove that these images are believed by most Germans. There is a good argument to be made that this statement is nevertheless true. Here are German favorability ratings of America from Summer 2002, March 2003, May 2003 and March 2004 from the Pew polls (http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=206): 61, 25, 45, 38. Except for one poll, there is always a minority favorable to the US.

It's nice to see that someone is actually interested in a debate. Glad you mentioned these polls, because they pretty much confirm - in my opinion - what Gerd wrote:

Most Germans opposed the war because it seemed a blatant breach of international law; most American’s supported the war because they felt threatened by Iraq (rightly or wrongly). Both views are sensible – but they are not compatible.

Keep in mind that the rating of 61 is dated Summer 2002, i.e. after the Afghanistan campaign. Look at the "Gap Over Using Force - Country Needs UN Approval First" data. There you have your answer why the ratings you mentioned went down - not due to anti-American propaganda in the German media, which existed already before 2002.

It is my experience that after the reelection of George W. Bush, the majority of Germans accepted the fact that Americans obviously have a different view on the War on Terror, and that it shouldn't be a constant source of conflict between our nations. Since the elections in Iraq on Jan. 30th, there's a growing portion of people here who see and acknowledge the positive effects of George Bush's strategy. If he verifyably and successfully continues his policy of spreading freedom and democracy, I am sure favorability ratings of America will soon reach the pre-11/9-level here in Germany. And there is nothing that Pogue and Helian can do about it :-). They will simply have to accept - just as we did - that friends sometimes have different opinions.

@Jeff

"Now Ardrey is not a very profound sort, but group cohesion among primates is a pretty obvious fact. No need to get exercised."

Profound? Well, Ardrey was a statistician who became a playwright, then took an interest in the implications of animal behavior for traits we consider "human." When his books came out he was derided as a "pop ethologist" by the behaviorists, who have, in turn, been completely debunked. I'm sure Ardrey would still be anathema to the postmodernists, their intellectual descendants. His writing style was somewhat more ornate than what you usually find in the pages of the "Journal of Computational Physics," or "Nature." For all that, I consider him one of the best true scientists who ever lived, and I say that as a scientist who has seen many of them. You don't need to sit in a university chair, speak all the proper jargon, and win nice medals from your peers every year to contribute to human knowledge or search for the truth. Ardrey will be vindicated, even if those who owe him much never acknowledge him.

"What's that supposed to mean, Helian? Don't make me call you names."

I recant all deviations from orthodoxy, oh Grand Inquisitor. I have always thought right about the Trinity, and acknowledge the two natures and one person of Christ. I furthermore accept the teachings of the true church on the correct date for Easter.

> And there is nothing that Pogue and Helian can do about it :-).

...or Spiegel and Stern

I recant all deviations from orthodoxy, oh Grand Inquisitor. I have always thought right about the Trinity, and acknowledge the two natures and one person of Christ. I furthermore accept the teachings of the true church on the correct date for Easter.

Smart move, Papism is the wave of the future (although this Catholic isn't all that happy about the use of the term 'orthodoxy' in this context. I hope you'll shape up in that regard, too - this fellow is in charge of what's left of the Holy Roman Inquisition, and all it would cost me would be an email...)

@ Helian

I do not object to Ardrey's writing style. He wrote quite well. I think moreover that what he wrote is often interesting. But everything he wrote about the development of human behavior was derivitive; e.g from Konrad Lorenz, etc. Now, I am NOT saying Ardrey plagiarized: he was quite forthright in naming his sources.

Ardrey was a very good popularizer, not a scientist. I'd be interested in seeing what original research by Ardrey you can cite. (I know: it is SO elitist to expect a scientist to do original work. Far easier to make fun of those who do do original science and sometimes publish it in journals with funny sounding names.)

"My point is: it's not neccsarily because of the meanspiritness of authors and the press that we see biased articles, it's because of a different world view (shaped by culture, history, geography and the press). Accusing each other of bias is simple but won't achieve anything. Trying to understand where these differences come from is more useful.

Gerd, I disagree. I think a lot of people at Stern and elsewhere in the German media know better. For one, this is about making a profit. Sadly, this sort of caricaturing sells a lot of magazines. Secondly, it is bias, because I have NEVER seen anything of this magnitude or consistency in the US media in a major publication. Additionally, this is motivated by fear of Bush and the US system, because it is a fundamental threat to the Socialist ideal and the entire worldview of most of the leftists in the media, and they want to see Bush and the US discredited at all costs. Ever wonder why "amerikanische Verhältnisse" has become such a bad word in Germany despite the fact that the US is dramatically outstripping Germany economically and in almost every other field?

Ray, it is obvious that the media environment has a major impact on shaping the American worldview as well. It doesn't make sense to assume that one side is objective while the other one is biased - there are at least two possible (and equally sensible) interpretations of events as we all can currently see.

I won't disagree that the US media influences people in the US. But I think most of the US media is a lot more like the German media in the sense that it is biased towards the left and against Bush than most Germans would like to believe. If you don't believe me and still think the US media is pro-Bush, just look at this recent study done by the Columbia University Project for Excellence in Journalism:

How the Press Covered the Pivotal Period of the 2004 Presidential Campaign

The rest of your statement sounds like a lot of meaningless, feel-good relativist crap to be honest. (All points of view are equally valid and explainable by cultural differences, etc.) I just don't buy it.

---Ray D.

I don't know about all the B.S. written above, but, that marine D.I. is the start of a great fantasy. She is fine!!

@Jeff

"I do not object to Ardrey's writing style. He wrote quite well. I think moreover that what he wrote is often interesting. But everything he wrote about the development of human behavior was derivitive; e.g from Konrad Lorenz, etc. Now, I am NOT saying Ardrey plagiarized: he was quite forthright in naming his sources.
Ardrey was a very good popularizer, not a scientist. I'd be interested in seeing what original research by Ardrey you can cite. (I know: it is SO elitist to expect a scientist to do original work. Far easier to make fun of those who do do original science and sometimes publish it in journals with funny sounding names.)"

You're talking nonsense, Jeff. You need to actually go back and read the man's work. Not only did he have many original ideas and do a great deal of original research, but he also even published occasionally in those journals with funny sounding names you refer to. For that matter, what, exactly, is so abject about organizing and bringing before the public significant work that would otherwise disappear into some musty stack without a ripple? Somehow I don't find such a person less a scientist than someone who spends his life writing a series of papers about infinitesimal improvements to the diffusion equation.

Ralf Goergen,

Your analysis is sound. I'll cool my rhetorical jets. Just wanted to get that off my chest, I guess.

I'll keep swilling Warsteiner whenever I can and rolling in my Jetta. (Not at the same time.)

@ Helian

We have gone off track. You think I speak nonsense. Fine, I think you do.

I asked for some cites. Got none. Case proved.

You can have the last word and we can stop interfering with Ray's site.

Ardrey and Leopold, "Toxic Substances in Plants and the Food Habits of Early Man," Science, May 5, 1972

You're sucking canal water on this one, Jeff.

@ Martina

"They will simply have to accept - just as we did - that friends sometimes have different opinions."

When people have different enough opinions, they stop being friends. If a friend says, "I disagree with what you are doing," that is one thing. If a "friend" says, "I disagree with your criminal actions because your motives are obviously evil and venal," maybe one can do without such friends.

@ Helian

I'll look it up. If I was wrong and he actually had something original to say about human behavior that did not come from Dart or Lorenz etc I shall apologize.

Jeff

Speaking of stereotyping, wouldn't you say that quoting only one left wing German magazine is stereotyping all Germans or all German media? At least the Stern magazine showed and quoted a number of different Americans with different opinions. The above critique of the German media and/or of Germans, however, is based upon only one left wing glossy full color magazine that is not exactly known for its intelectual prowess. There are conservative pro-American views in Germany also that are reflected in conservative German media and conservative German voters.

PS: The captions ("good democrat," "evil republican") above each picture are not quotations from Stern.

@Gerd Kortuem writes:

"Newshounds (http://www.newshounds.us/) lists some of the more obvious biases of Fox News but focusing on individual examples and Fox News is entirely missing the point of my post. "

As a big Fox News watcher, I was curious about the more obvious biases of Fox News, so I checked out Newshounds and heres the first couple of sentences:

News Hounds Manifesto

Like many projects, this one started out as something else. In early 2004, eight middle-aged citizens from different backgrounds and locations around the USA teamed up via MoveOn.org and the internet (thank you, Al Gore!) to volunteer our services for OUTFOXED, a documentary film by Robert Greenwald regarding Fox News Channel.

Now, going to MoveOn.org for a view of Fox News, is like going to the chickens to ask their opinion of Col. Sanders.

Fox is "fair & balanced" compared to all other network and cable news channels. Period.

GK writes: "Of course there are misconceptions and misrepresentations on both sides (you the examples in the German media, I see the ones on the other end).

That's not the issue, the issue and accusation is the purposful creation of misrepresentation and misconceptions in the German Media about Americans and America.

GK writes: "I do not have to mention that there are other magazines and newspapers in Germany with a different attitude towards the US."


I assume you don't mean a worse attitude. Name one with a positive view of the US.

@ Stefan Tahmassebi

You write:

The above critique of the German media and/or of Germans, however, is based upon only one left wing glossy full color magazine that is not exactly known for its intelectual prowess.

Hey Stefan, have you looked over the hundreds of entries on this blog from over the past two years? Do they all have to do with Stern? Do you honestly expect us to take that criticism seriously?

PS: The captions ("good democrat," "evil republican") above each picture are not quotations from Stern.

P.P.S: Did you even read the entire article??? I explicitly stated that in the article, here it is again:

"(Note: Just to be very clear, the (ironic) comments directly following each red page number are from Davids Medienkritik and are intended to reflect the way we think Stern really views the pictures. The translated captions beneath each page are directly from the original Stern gallery.)"

"There are conservative pro-American views in Germany also that are reflected in conservative German media and conservative German voters."

Really? Is that why more Germans trust Vladimir Putin than George Bush, because there are so darn many pro-conservative, pro-American media outlets in Germany?

Deutsche vertrauen Putin mehr als Bush

And maybe that has a little something to do with this:

Die "verschwundenen" Tschetschenen

Sorry Stefan, no sale here.

---Ray D.

PS: I wonder if you ask Germans where they would prefer to live, USA or Russia, whether you would get a similar result as in the Bush vs Putin poll?

So I have to ask myself just what is wrong with the Germans? They can do no better?

Surely in your own little wonderland, you have to feel superior and yet your nation is in decline. Want to explain that? In fact,I would like the German M$M to explain that?

But most of Germany's leftisms are exactly that - attempts to explain why those who reject their ideals succeed (imperialists, stealing the wealth of other countries, evil opressive multinational copporations and globalization, etc.), and they comparatively fail. In fact, the caricatures themselves work toward that end: "don't feel bad, see, those fascists are really the most pitiable of creatures!" The success, and even existance, of America is a continuous rebuke to their ideals. If they aren't going to seriously reexamine those ideals, these caricatures are necessary to maintain them.


No, that doesn't make anyone proud. I really don't know where you got the idea. The media went after her as soon as her remarks became public, and she was fired three days later.

And yet, "Bush=Hitler" has graced so many German-crafted protest signs. How odd.


Michael Leeden is the only person who ever made that claim, and he did rely on the say-so of a single Turkish politician speaking anonymously. If it really had happened, there would have been plenty of corroboration by now.

He is not (in fact, I don't even know who he is), and there is much more and better support than that. Chirac threatening their EU ambitions, France and Germany nixing their defense conference rights, etc. - why do you think there was an entire division of American troops stuck in the Mediterranean? Do you think the war's planners sent them there because they really hoped that maybe Turkey could be enticed to offer a corridor? Turkey was on board, but had a couple matters like defense and refugee assistance to iron out before the axis of weasels torpedoed us yet again.


Similarly these Americans do not understand the political view of most Germans (French etc.).

I increasingly reject it precisely because my understanding of it grows with each new encounter.


I don't know about Stern's publication figures nor do I have Fox News numbers but I suspect fewer Germans read Stern magazine than Americans watch Fox news (in percentage).

FNC has a viewership of just over one million viewers nightly (of 280ish million Americans). By contrast, the lowest of the three network news choices, CBS, has about 7 million. ABC and NBC each have around 9-10 million viewers nightly. Unless, of course, you ask around in Germany - in this case, Americans "all" watch Fox News, and are "brainwashed" by it.


She's not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't recall that she ever had made such a remark before. She simply was a good little leftist functionary for decades who made cabinet rank on the strength of her seniority.

Ah, a German Carolyn Parrish!


If he verifyably and successfully continues his policy of spreading freedom and democracy, I am sure favorability ratings of America will soon reach the pre-11/9-level here in Germany.

No better than that?

@Ray
"The rest of your statement sounds like a lot of meaningless, feel-good relativist crap to be honest".
Ray, relativist crap or not, it is fairly easy to ascribe inferior motives to journalists, authors and politicians (America hating, profit hungry, envious, …) and to dismiss their opinions based on those attributions. However, it is not very helpful.

I wish Stern would run an article that goes deeper in trying to understand the American people (left-wing or right-wing). By the same token, I wish Fox would run a feature trying to make Americans understand why many Germans think the way they do. I don’t think we will see this though. In the meantime I see as much bias in the American media landscape as in the German.

Again, I can only recommend Robert Kagan’s book because it manages to point out the source of some of the misunderstandings between the two countries especially wrt to Iraq.

@Jabba
"That's not the issue, the issue and accusation is the purposful creation of misrepresentation and misconceptions in the German Media about Americans and America."
My whole point is that we don't have to or shouldn't immediately assume that misrepresentations and misconceptions are indeed purposeful. They might just be normal results of living in different countries and having different experiences.

We don’t know what this particular Stern author had in mind and on some level it is not very important – because this article reinforces an already existing image of America prevalent in Germany. Similarly, American media mostly reflect what people think anyway (because media is market driven).

The more interesting issue is why countries as a whole (i.e. its people) view the same situations and events (for example Iraq) in entirely different and incompatible ways even though just a few years ago they seemed to see the world with the same eyes.

Martina Zitterbart,

You said...

--They will simply have to accept - just as we did - that friends sometimes have different opinions.--

Friends don't call friends war-mongering Nazi drones (we saw the "peace" marches). Friends don't think and say the very worst of a friend at every opportunity. But, even the most ardent American gun toter would never sell a weapon to the enemy of a friend or loved one. Friends don't sell arms, or accept bribes, from the totalitarian enemies of a friend. Surely, even in Germany, these things are true.

@Tom Penn
What we can't understand is this deep commitment within the German people to hate us and think we're awful. We do not understand why you think we threaten you when we have given our blood on your soil to preserve your freedom. We stood with the German people ...
Tom, there is no denial that Germany owes the American people a lot. I do not see a deep commitment within the German people to hate Americans. I do see resentment towards American politics and the American influence on culture, commerce etc. I also see a lot of confusion over the current situation - I believe by and large German people would like to get along with America.

As a side note: one must recognize that America's struggle against the Nazis and later on against communisms was not entirely selfless but in her own interest - it wasn't a gift to the German people - although they certainly benefited from it quite a bit. Similarly, the Marshal plan and the rebuilding of western Europe after the war was a tool to limit the influence of communism - again in America's own interest. Nevertheless, the (West-)German people were lucky to have first an enemy and later on an ally who was willing to stand up for humanism and democracy.


As a side note: one must recognize that America's struggle against the Nazis and later on against communisms was not entirely selfless but in her own interest - it wasn't a gift to the German people - although they certainly benefited from it quite a bit. Similarly, the Marshal plan and the rebuilding of western Europe after the war was a tool to limit the influence of communism - again in America's own interest.

This is an argument you will hear a lot in Germany. We can forget about what America did for us because, after all, they were just a bunch of self-interested imperialists and didn't really care about Germany or Germans. It was all about furthering US capitalism, trade and profits and stopping Communism.

So Gerd, let me ask you, what country does NOT act in its own self-interests? Why are so many Germans trying to use this cheap argument to justify German thanklessness towards America? (And, oh yeah, that thanklessness has nothing to do with media bias, right Gerd?) After all, if it hadn't been for the US, what kind of a nation would Germany be today?

And as far as self-interest goes, good old Gerd Schroeder knows something about that, just ask him about the benefits of selling weapons or nuclear plants to China or making billion dollar deals with Saudi despots. It's all good unless the US is doing it, right Gerd?

Oh well, I guess I just don't understand your cultural sensitivities and historic perspective enough though...must be my fault.

---Ray D.

@ Gerd

Well of course the American government did what it thought was in the long-term interests of the US. That is what the US government is SUPPOSED to do. I think a US government that did what was contrary to the interests of the US would deservedly have a problem with US voters.

Yes, absolutely the US government thought getting rid of Fascist dictators in Europe was a wise move FOR THE US. Yes, the US government thought helping to put Europe back together economically after WWII was a wise move FOR THE US. Yes, the US government thought preventing the USSR from taking over western Europe was a wise move FOR THE US. Do I personally expect GRATITUDE?

I do not: gratitude is simply not part of the European Weltanschaung that we benighted Americans need to understand. But I do expect comprehension from such a sophisticated population. Not a bunch of nonsense about Bush = Hitler or all the US is after is oil. Just like all that oil we were pumping out of Berlin in 1948.

A German ought to be able to see some consistency running from the Fourteen Points, the Atlantic Charter, the Truman Doctrine, through the Bush Doctrine.

Now if the idea is that Germany and the US must have a hostile relationship unless the US agrees that a body that puts Libya in charge of human rights gets to call the shots, then Germany better get used to a highly hostile relationship with the US from here on.

I said "given our blood on your soil to preserve your freedom" because that is the truth of the matter. The GI Joes and the American taxpayer were in Germany why? For money? Freedom? Friendship? Because it was the right thing to do? Because we are oil guzzling warmongers? Wow. What a damn bad long-term investment for us on all counts. To every European who has ever called my nation "Imperialist" or "emperialist", in plain American english, fuque you -- on behalf of myself, my father, and my grandfathers.

All I'm thinking is that "Snail Trail" is either the dog's or the guy's name,cause if it's the women and with her wearing that granny dress..........brrrrrrr! bad image!

Only can say to the Germans Heil Hitler, your at it again, european nationalism will never stop and thats the problem there.
Stuck in the medievil world-6 million jews killed and they didn't know or did anything about it-give me a break, America saved europe and your argument is lame and unintelligent,
The Niko post says it, f you all in europe. And Im sure you will
be crying for our help again. You would be in the toilet if American aid stopped
in the world. America is the greatest country in the world, I think euros are jealous and envious.
12 per cent unemployment-great. USA USA USA USA USA

walking around Boston and NY I see lots of Euro trash here, STAY HOME WE DON'T LIKE YOU EITHER

THATS WHY THEY CALL IT EURO TRASH, GET IT

Sure are a lot of German retirees in Southwest Florida. They even have (heaven forbid) CHURCH SERVICES IN GERMAN along with German-American Clubs, etc. Methinks Ronald Wilhelm might have been "one of theirs."

> (1) The notion that Germans somehow had "international law" in mind when they developed their recent opinion of not loving America is utter bullshit. The point here is that Germans had the exact same opinion on America in 1890 when German philosophers and travellers informed the German public what a shitty country there were beyond the great pond (was it the illegal civil war between the Union and Confederates?), the same opinion in 1930 when German Nazis warned the public of an impeding cultural invasion of Europe being prepared in America (was it the American-Spanish war?), and now again. The Iraq war is not the reason, but just a convenient pretense for a German tradition that's now again roaming free.

So in your opinion, the drop in favorability ratings between summer 2002 and March 2003 is due to German philosophers who travelled America more than hundred years ago? What is your interpretation of the data given? Seems like you don't even attempt to understand what is going on. I think we agree that anti-Americanism existed in Germany before 2002. Did this do any harm to the relationship of the two nations before this date? I think people like Mike will disagree.

> (2) The NATO intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo was not sanctioned by the UN or any international treaty. The latter fact includes the notion that even according to the NATO treaty there was no case for war as neither Bosnia or Serbia were threatening any NATO member, nor was the conflict involving any NATO member, nor took it place in any NATO country. Oh, and the "UN Approval First" thing - shove it up your ass, ok?

Germany never ever cared for UN approval, nor does she care about binding international treaties. Can you spell M-a-a-s-t-r-i-c-h-t?

You are right if you are speaking of the Government, but the issue here is the opinion of the German people. How do you explain the results of the "Using Force"-poll?

> (3) Germans don't have a "different view on the War on Terror". In actual fact, most Germans don't have any view on the War on Terror. More to the point, if you're on the lookout for any people who lack knowledge or perspective whatsoever beyond topics like global warming or tin recycling then Germany is the place to be. Geebus, most Germans can't even name all German states, or identify Romania (you remember, that new EU member?) on a map.

Agreed!

(4) There's not a "growing portion of people here who see and acknowledge the positive effects of George Bush's strategy". If at all then those people attribute change in the ME to, you know, some under-researched force hiding in the dark and catching German ME experts by surprise. No one comes out of the woodwork to say that they supported change in the ME. In actual fact, none of the billions of German ME experts from tv and print acknowledged that they were wrong, wrong, wrong about the Arab Street(tm). You know, Flächenbrand, Hunderttausende Tote, das neue Stalingrad.

(5) As has been demonstrated in this blog and others the legend of the squandering of goodwill is pure bullshit. "Favorability ratings of America" will not "reach the pre-11/9-level here in Germany" because Germany will just search and find another pretense (Kyoto? ICC? ICJ?) to vent her longstanding hatred for America.

I'd like to say that the German voices in this blog somehow were not representative of Germany. But they are, and believe me, mainstream Germany is much, much worse than that. G-d, what a shitty country this one has become.

The best thing about blogs is, that different people get to report on their first hand experience without being filtered by MSM-gatekeepers. You write about your experiences, I write about mine. Maybe I am privileged and not representative for the whole German people, but that is how I experience it every day, and it is a clear trend. I stand by my prediction, remember you heard it first here.

well all nations have sterotypes about other nations, why do americans always think no other nation should dare to caricature the people in the usa? I mean look at the sterotypes americans have about germans!
1. germans always eat sauerkraut the whole day
2. all germans wear lederhosen
3. germans never laugh
4. germans love their cars more than their wifes
5. all male in germany have the name fritz or hans! etc.etc.
But well if americans make fun of "weird" traditions or habits of other nations than they call it funny, even the us entertainment industry is using those sterotypes to get a few laughs, look at "the simpsons" or other popular series or shows!
we can do that too, its lustig for us too!

@Jeff

"I'll look it up. If I was wrong and he actually had something original to say about human behavior that did not come from Dart or Lorenz etc I shall apologize."

No need, because Ardrey's scientific status isn't relevant to the thread. His ideas, however, are very relevant. The theme of his work was that human behavior is subject to innate predispositions that our part of our evolutionary baggage. That includes morality, the genetically wired basis for our identification of the categories of good and evil. In terms of Ardrey's though, Kant's categorical imperative was a genetically hard-wired evolutionary artifact. I think the hypothesis can be fruitfully applied to the mass behavior patterns we see in the world today. Think about it. Are the Germans and other Europeans so susceptible to anti-American hate mongering because they are mostly evil people? I don't think that's going to fly, especially with the Germans, who've already had the Nazi monkey on their backs for the last 60 years. Is obsessive hatred of the U.S. something that's learned, a cultural thing? No, because we see the same behavior all over the world, cutting across the most diverse of cultures. Are Americans provoking this reaction because we are innately evil? No, because the "evil" behavior we are condemned for is routinely ignored when committed by other countries. We are forced to the conclusion that the anti-American hysteria is not a "rational" behavior, in that it is not a reasonable response to a real provocation. However, it is very rational and predictable in terms of the innate determinants of human behavior. The human mind is an incredibly complex organ, and our real knowledge of how it works is so limited that speculation about the exact nature of the phenomenon we are witnessing is bound to be wide of the mark. We are still stumbling in the dark when it comes to understanding human consciousness. However, it is still possible to see very clearly that we are dealing with irrational behavior, and that such behavior has led to countless human disasters in the past. Perhaps it is time for all of us to step back, relax, and try to apply a little of the reason we humans are so proud of to the situation.

@ Racker

Interpretation # 1: Each nation has stereotypes of other nations so all stereotypes are just equally lustig, like those of that hilarious Leni Riefenstahl.

Interpretation # 2: There is no difference between admittedly irreverent nonsense, eg the Simpsons, and the German press (OH WAIT, THAT IS PRECISELY R AND D'S POINT.)

@ Helian

I agree with you on the importance of the ideas that Ardrey wrote about. I think you will see from the brief note I posted to Ralf that I have read Ardrey and paid enough attention to him to have some recollections about his work. Furthermore, he did inspire me to read some of the works that he relied on, eg Lorenz.

My disagreement with you is whether Ardrey added much that was profound to ideas, experiments, and writings that others, such as Lorenz and Tinbergen, had produced. In fact, my recollection is that Ardrey was always very forthright about acknowledging his intellectual indebtedness, which is of course honorable behavior.

I do not know enough about ethology and physical anthropology to assess whether Ardrey pulled together such significant ideas from so many disparate and previously uncorrelated sources that his synthesis could reasonably be called new. But my recollection is that Ardrey's work is almost totally dependent on ideas such as animal territoriality, which are not his ideas.

I am not denigrating the value of being a popularizer. That is a frequently of great social importance, but I do not call it profound.

I think that you and I are arguing about the meaning of the word "profound." I said Ardrey was not profound (because I believe the ideas that he wrote about were not, at least not mainly, his.) The ideas that he wrote about may well be quite profound, but I did not attack his ideas. Indeed I pointed out to Ralf their relevance to the discussion.

In any case, your last post is NOT nonsensical, and so I apologize for accusing you of speaking nonsense.

PS I am glad I do not have to figure out how to dig up a 30 year old issue of Science.

Why do you make it sound like Stern speaks for the entire country of Germany? And in the same sentence, decry how they post pictures and captions stating that what they have shown here is representative of the USA as a whole? Don't you find this to be a bit hypocritical? Are you the Pot or the Kettle?

GERMANY YES,ARENT THEY THE SAME GERMANY
THAT PRODUCED 100 YEARS OF WAR AND CHAMGE
LAST CENTURY THE COLD WAR JUST A SHOCK WAVE
FROM THE HUNS CAMPFIRES AS CHURCHILL PUT IT NOW THE EURO IS THEIR NEW TANK,NO THIS IS A SKILLFULL KNOW YOUR ENEMY STUDY...SEE GERMANY IS NOT AN OLD COUNTRY THEY ONLY
GOT IT TOGETHER IN THE 1800S THIS IS ANOTHER ATTEMPT
TO BASH THEIR COUSINS AND MAKE US AND ENGLAND
THEIR DOMINION OF MANIFEST DESTINY..LIEBENSTRASSE ETC ETC
ARNOLD HEIL APPLE STRUDEL

Nationalism is evil.

First-time poster here who just finished reading the whole thing but didn't see anything about an alternative view of the Stern piece. While I totally agree with Ray about Stern's intentions, I also have to wonder how many Germans might have these unintended (by Stern) reactions:
Page 1: Gee, this guy has 75 (75!) guns and I'm not allowed to have even a single one.
Page 2: At least that guy is in jail for life instead of getting out after barely 15 years so he can kill/rape/maim again.
Page 4 left: Those guys might not all have the greatest education in the world but even so they at least have jobs, unlike the 12% unemployment here in Germany.
Page 4 right: I can only wish that I could afford to have my family live in one of those clean suburbs. Instead I'm stuck in this Wohnkaserne.
Page 5 left: Oh, we have people like Snail Trail too but we call them Asoziale here and shun them.
Page 5 right:. I only wish 9/11 had opened the eyes of many Germans. Instead many think this couldn't happen here and coddle our own terrorists.
Page 7: Hmmm, we can probably compete on the ditzy-blonde front but on the military front...forget it!!
Page 8: Holy cow! I couldn't even get the frontwheel-assembly of that 727 into my tiny yard. Even if I suddenly had a bigger yard, no way would I ever get an Erlaubnis from the Bauamt.
IMO, many of these photos show just how great America is in providing opportunity and freedom to her people. Just maybe some of the more openminded Stern readers will also get this impression.


Mike,

good to hear :)

Doug,

lighten up, will you? The signs in the protests some idiots wield have nothing to do with the rest of us.

j,

would you please hit 'Capslock' before you post the next time? :)

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/?id=531016


Ha! I found it. The article is from Oktober 2004. Now, the print version is different than the online version, in that the print version used the entire photo series.

While reading through the article, I got the same impression that I got from viewing the pictures. A bunch of typicle stereotyping. After reading the article (sorry, I only found it in German), just ask yourself who the author would have voted for if he were able to vote in America.

The last sentence, I found to be a great idea!

"Und sollte Bush noch mal gewinnen, so gilt Norman Mailers Forderung: New York muss endlich die Unabhängigkeit erklären."

Translation: And should Bush win again, according to Norman Mailers: New York must finally declare its independence.

Well, take California with ya! Better yet, move New York to Europe. Then, I could finally get my family to visit me in Germany. :-D

x..."Nationalism is evil."

Explain why.

You are required at least one paragraph. We will count off for spelling. There will be a pop quiz later.

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