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"Iraq has just got to be another Viet Nam; they don’t want it any other way."

Schroeder's generation made the Vietnam war into a quagmire, and that got people listening to them. Their hope of turning Iraq into another Vietnam is a desperate attempt to be relevant.

On a somewhat related note, here is the best article I've seen on the "Old Europe" flap: http://trans-int.blogspot.com/ (scroll down three items)

gee.... Schroeder's Germany seems to be a bit of a quagmire today.

"Right now, sadly, Germany is saddled with a chancellor who dislikes the U.S.—and always has."

It is probably not very helpful to analyze German politics under this premise: Chancellor Schröder once linked his political future to the question whether German troops are to be committed to Afghanistan (16 Nov 01). The unconditioned support of - US-led - military action against the Former Republic of Yugoslavia after a - mainly French - initiative for a diplomatic solution had showed no success doesn't appear to be a manifestation of anti-Americanism either.


true... although I respect someone who is ALWAYs antiamerican MORE than I respect someone who uses it to win elections.

"the R.A.F. terrorists Schroeder defended"

Schoeder never defended any terrorists.

you´r correct. He didn´t defend them. he was just their legal advisor! Which is basicly the sam thing though.
I like to pose the following question to Germans friends who don´t like bush or america. If I hang out with Nazis, help Nazis and basicly support their cause then what does that make me?
Then I ask them to look ant Fischer and schröder and theor old buddies in the RAF!
If it quacks like a duck and sheds water like a duck.......


Sorry! Can´t seem to be able to type correctly today. :-(



"Schoeder never defended any terrorists."

My recollection does not go that far back. I don't know if Schroeder and Schilly defended RAF members in Court.

However, Schroeder's present association with the RAF in unmistakable: his present foreign minister had close RAF ties.

Oh Illic, so now there was "unconditioned support" by someone in Europe for US actions in Yugoslavia. That's probably why US planes had to fly from the US, across the Atlantic ocean, through the straits of Gibraltar, across the Mediteranian sea, make a left at the Adriatic and then return via the same route. I suppose just because no European country would let a US plane fly over it, we can't assume that it wasn't complete cooperation.

And those protest marches against Clinton then, just because they condemed the then President, that can in no way be interpreted as condeming the US, right? Well at least it's consistant; I'll give you that much.


Do you have a source for that? Because I doubt that it happened that way. (Even during the much more disputed last war in Iraq Germany did not close its airspace for coalition aircrafts.) Such an action would have been rather inconsistant since German military forces were also engaged in that conflict.

"And those protest marches against Clinton then, just because they condemed the then President, that can in no way be interpreted as condeming the US, right? Well at least it's consistant; I'll give you that much."

Yes, there were protest marches, which can well be regarded as a symptom of anti-Americanism. However, you missed my point. I was trying to argue that there is strong evidence that Chancellor Schröder does not "dislike" the U.S. Such a general assumption cannot be derived from his political actions in the years since 1998.


Correction. The above posting should start "@Charles".

Just to avoid useless confusion.


@ Charles,

I'm not entirely sure but I think you're talking about war-planes such as the B-2, i.e. planes of such a high technology that the US don't want them to land in other countries.

No one should make statements saying that "germany was behind the US in action against Yugo Serbs".
Thats pure un-filtered BS.
This was a euro problem on euro soil that euros could not handle themselves, one of a million such instances of complete euro impotence over the years. So you were "helping the US"?
What a horrible sense of your global responsibilities or the german resposibilities for your own damn backyard.
germany had been wanting a weakend "serbia" for decades, and they finally got their wish at the expense of US taxpayers as has always been the case. The US going in and knocking down Miliosovich will rank as one of the most foolish things the US has ever done, at any time. It set the stage for the current euro jihad coming from your welfare masses.
Now that germany tries to claim of it's "emancipation" from the US stranglehold (ha!, the germans hungrily receive billions and re-building and re-unification efforts, and once that stops they are "emancipated"???)- we now get to listen to germans trying to re-write history in order to make their present day gloom look less like the socio-economic hello-hole and quagmire that is present day germany. And we get to see them now trying in desperation to re-write a very recent history.
What really is the difference between your average german mind in the 1930's compared to 2005? The distorted german press accounts of world events appear, to someone on the outside looking in, as eerily fulled with the same bullszhit that was spewed back in the 1930's and the people suckel hungrily on this nonsense.

and to see the german kosovo serb rivalry-

The one B2 shot down in that conflict was shot down after French generals provided flight path info to serbs on the ground.
Yeah, the french and germans together again, bringing their special brand of cunning duplicity and whore-like behavior to the world..

The great german effort at mid-east peace, as detailed by a german-

Is this really a country worthy of an alliance with anyone other than france?

"Yeah, the french and germans together again, bringing their special brand of cunning duplicity and whore-like behavior to the world.."

the only whore here is probably you!
by the way when did we get "re-unification" billions from the usa? just wondering!
your posts are always a big laugh for me....please go on!

Actually the aircraft was a F 117 not a B2

thanks Joe, you're correct it was a F117 stealth.

@anonymous little poster screeched-
"by the way when did we get "re-unification" billions from the usa? just wondering!your posts are always a big laugh for me....please go on!"
It's almost as alarming as it is humorous to hear this crap coming from a german citizen in modern times. It's a prefect example of the attempts to re-write history and a systemic disease of selective memory that permeates your country.
You'd be eating your govt donated muslix out of a wooden bowl, and rinsing it with piss-poor vodka this morning if it wasn't for US taxpayer funds and US military and civilian efforts. I know thats so tough for you to comprehend, but why is that so?

That's probably why US planes had to fly from the US,
U.S Air Force planes departed from Spangdahlem, Germany to operations in Kosovo.

And those protest marches against Clinton then, just because they condemed the then President, that can in no way be interpreted as condeming the US, right?
Is it the chancellor's fault when people on the street are protesting against a war? Should the chancellor suppress these protests - in a democracy?

Since they seem to have nothing better to do, perhaps Germans should invade themselves and reimpose a semblance of Ordnung. It'll keep them in practice.

I recall reading about the USAF having to buy home garden type lawn chairs so the B2 pilots could sleep during the long flight to Kosovo. A strange enough story thats easy to remember years later. Unfortunately news services don't archive articles from that time for free anymore. Google has an archive for CNN, so tha's all I can give you now.

The first mentions the flight time of 15 hours. That's a 30 hour mission for a 2 man flight crew.


Also, it wasn't limited to the B2 bomber. B52s were stationed in the UK for a 16 hour round trip mission.


Now I don't know what Schroeder's personal attidtude towards the US is, but I do know what his attitude towards the US in Kosovo was.

This is what Germans do that drive Americans crazy. One day it's "we disapprove of American policy X tried to stop it", and the next day it's "we approved of American policy X and were it's biggest supporters".

One day it's "the US embargo of Iraq is killing 200,000 Iraqi children a year", the next day it's "the UN's oil for food program was working... and we should keep it... and hardly any Americans were running it."


Jeez Charles, you need to expand your social circle. If you knew any Leftists, then it wouldn't drive you crazy anymore -- you would simply be used to it.

Chomskybot, thanks for the link. I'll look at it more later. It doesn't show what you tink, but still is interesting.

Beimami, I have a sister who does pledge breaks on public television. That's enough for me. Also I prefer my social circles to be paisley shaped... or maybe non equalateral romboids. Circles are just too 70's for me.

Well, I'm off to see Robots.

"Recent Baader/Meinhof exhibition in Berlin"

Why do I have visions in my head of Andres Baader and Ulrike Meinhof singing "Spring Time for Hitler?" Only in "Chermany!"


R.A.F. Terrorists? Only R.A.F. I'm aware of is the British Royal Air Force

I dont think Schroeder defended any of them personally. I thought it was the dream team of Otto Schilly (Home Office Minister) and Horst Mahler (Now head of the NPD - the nationalist ultra right party). I seem to remember this being mentioned during the first attempt by Schilly to ban the NPD. I dont recall Schroeder defending them and although Fischer certainly was a student protester at the time I dont think he had any direct association with the RAF or their defence. Here " The Fischer File"
is a nice but alarming article on Fischer´s views from an article written at the time and the scary parallels to today.

@ Jewels (aka Julian)

Here at Wikipedia a brief description of the Rote Armee Fraktion. You probably have heard of them under the other name, the Baader Meinhof Gang.

To understand the german "Green party" and the current german Government it's a "must" to know the RAF.


On a side note:
from Die Welt online ,with a picture of cheering Syrian soldiers :

" Auf der Heimreise
Beirut – Nicht nur die Libanesen freuen sich über den Abzug der Syrer. Die Soldaten Assads selbst brechen in Jubel aus, als sie die Grenze zu ihrem Heimatland erreichen. Es ist kein Spaß, Besatzungssoldat zu sein, das spricht aus diesen Gesichtern. Syrien hat versprochen, alles Militär und den Geheimdienst vollständig nach Hause zu holen. "

Concerning media attitude and policy, it´s the also the little things that count:
In this case:
"Es ist kein Spaß, Besatzungssoldat zu sein.."

Translation: " It´s no fun being an occupation soldier "


The only Baader-Meinhof exhibition I would be interested in would be photographs of their dead bodies floating in a urine filled jar.

It's to bad all the RAF supporters are not where them belong, in Prison for life.

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