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It's not Europe that's old, it's ethnic Europeans. The Muslim birth rate will keep Europe young for centuries to come. Why worry? Be happy and keep sleeping.

On a sidenote: I happened to be in the former Justice Minister's hometown Tübingen when she returned from Berlin. The kooks there were throwing her a huge welcome party at a pizzeria and celebrating her as a hero returning from the front lines...

The German government is ruled by too many people who are too simple minded. When I remember this discussion about Rumsfeld, I really wondered about the storm of outrage. They are measuring everything with different standard:

Schröder can call Iraq "adventure" without having a political discussion or an answer for Bush. We are not the slaves of the US, is his statement and most of the people and the newspapers support these "strong" words. Wir sind wieder wer. But calling us part of "Old Europe" - what an offend! I don't understand it.

When 9/11 happened, when the US started to fight terrorism, when Israel faught suicid murderers with strong methods, they condemned them and told them to think of the reason for terror: Poverty and injustice. They told Israel that poverty and injustice is the deep cause for terror!!! Not the terrorists are responsible, the Israelis who keep them poor.

Now Stoiber said the unemployment gives people radical ideas.

What an outrage!!!

Read the newspapers!

And Müntefering said, the people who voted for NPD are responsible and not the unemployment.

"Streit unter uns über sie - das würde den Nazis so passen", meinte Müntefering. Er warf dem CSU-Chef vor, mit seinen Äußerungen den Rechtsextremisten in die Hände zu spielen. Stoiber mache einen schweren Fehler. Verantwortlich für die Stärkung der Rechtsextremisten seien "die, die die Nazis wählen und sie direkt oder indirekt unterstützen".


So not root causes when Germans are supporting radical parties???

And the trouble between SPD and CDU is helping the NPD? We should stay together against them?

So why do we let Israel fight the terrorists alone? Here they are sreaming: It is occupation! It is poverty! It is injustice. Not the terrorists and their supporter!

And in our own country: it is the people who voted for NPD,not poverty.

And didn't we help the terrorists when we demonized Bush???

What an outrage because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Now see Lima today, the prison with 8000 prisoners where only 1500 are allowed. They think Guantanamo is a first class hotel.

That is Anti-Americanism to report only about mistakes of the US and to ignore the real torture and the real crimes. When Abu Graib is in our news for weeks and months and years, it is ridiculous when you consider the situations of all prisons in this world. Abu Ghraib was one night. Lima and all the other prisons are always.

Did you hear Schröder' s answer to Stoiber? Isn't it Kindergarten standard (Kindergarten-Nivaeu)?

Sorry, anderes Thema, aber so wichtig:

Hier ist wieder ein typischer deutscher Kommentar zum Nahostkonflikt:

"Doch die Waffenruhe zu verkünden, ist auch diesmal viel einfacher, als sie zu einzuhalten. Erst die kommenden Tage und Wochen zeigen, welcher Stellenwert diesem Gipfel zukommen wird. Ein Ende der Intifada ist erst in Sicht, wenn Israel nach dem Treffen dringende Forderungen der Palästinenser erfüllt. Erst die Freilassung von Gefangenen, die Rückgabe der Sicherheitskontrolle über palästinensische Städte und der Abbau von Kontrollpunkten werden neben dem Schweigen der Waffen glaubhafte Signale einer Veränderung israelischer Politik sein."


Da schiebt man schon wieder Israel den schwarzen Peter für das Scheitern in die Schuhe und akzeptiert Terror als Reaktion! Der Kampf gegen den Terror ist Schritt 1 auf der Roadmap auf Seiten der Palästinenser. Kapieren unsere Journalisten diese simple Tatsache nicht? Es ist ja gerade Taktik der Palästinenser, immer wieder Forderungen zu stellen, die Israel dann als Verweigerer dastehen lassen. Warum fordern wir nicht einhellig und eindeutig ein Stop des Terrors als politisches Mittel? Was, wenn die NPD Selbstmordattentäter schicken würde? Haben dann die anderen Schuld, weil sie ihren Forderungen nicht nachgekommen sind?

What Rumsfeld was intending with his Old Europe/ New Europe remarks was an attempt to rationalize the unequal willingness in Germany, Belgium, France and Poland, Czechia to join an honorable fight against tyranny abroad.

If the reception would have not been as mean spirited, it could have come as useful advice for a reformation of our (small consonant) republican, democratic and economic esprit. East Germany and Germany as a whole would be far better off, if we would try to be more like Hungary or Poland (or England and Eire for that matter) and less like France (to be fair, we are even worse off than France economically) and Italy. Decline is never a good thing.

The vivid anti-Iraqi Freedom attitude of the German (Old European) population is IMHO equivalent to the Anti-Vietnam War/Draft (and consequential anti-South Vietnam, anti-Boat People, anti-Cambodian) attitude of the (American) 68s generation. It is born out of fear and the lack of virtue.

I love the fact that the GERMANS THEMSELVES refer to themselves as old and new..
alten u. neuen Bundesländer..
but that doesn't seem to bother THEM.

great point amiexpat

The most amusing this about, lo, these nearly 2 years of uproar over Rumsfeld's "old europe" phrase, is that he only SAID IT ONCE!
How laughable!

I think the outrage in America would be similar if Joschka Fischer would describe America as this degenerated former colony of Great Britain with no history and no culture. You can't compare images used by the media to words of ministers on conferences.

Unfortunately the left-shoe fits...both feet. 14th Century Fwrench Court politics has exploded into the death-rattle of the 21st Century pan-EUtopian empire.

Soumission, injustice, hostilité!! Viva régression!

Donald Rumsfeld has a habit of being unpopularly right when he opens his mouth. I'm not arguing that he hasn't made plenty of mistakes, but so many of his comments have wormed their way into political discourse. In that, he's like Ronald "The Evil Empire" Reagan, or Winston "The Iron Curtain" Churchill. He has a first-class mind (David Frum described him as the only first class mind in the Bush cabinet), decades of experience and the ability to boil his thoughts down to a soundbite, and he fears noone at all. The "Old Europe/New Europe" comment touched so many nerves amongst the French elite and German socialists that a Martian would know it had to be accurate, even knowing nothing about France or Germany. Rumsfeld's comment, and the letter to the Wall Street Journal by New Europe, were the light relief here in Europe in the run-up to the war.

Has the German equivalent of Joe Lunchbucket learned nothing from the terrorist activities in Holland? If you don't get control of your economy and infrastructure the Islamic Fundamentalists will eventually bury you. They make no bones about it! When we reposition the 90,000 troops now in Germany your country will be ripe for the picking.

I don't understand the fuss. For a very long time Europe has been considered "the old world" and the Americas "the new world".

New countries in east ern Europe, of course it's called "new Europe".

But don't worry about it anyway, when western Europe implodes under socialism, countries will re-form with "new" as a descriptor.

Like "New Arabia".

Is it wrong that I get the impression that Western European elitists don't like the thought of countries east of Germany are considered Europe at all?

Not in my opinion...

It was even that way with East Germany.

So, do you think the Germans will ever wake up to the Islamofascist threat? Trashing the U.S. leadership is ultimately meaningless. U.S. presidents and cabinet officials come and go, but Islam is forever. It's like the coming of the Borg or Sauron's armies. Look how the Muslims assimilated many once-great civilizations, bringing learning and development to a halt.

"Old Europe", that one sure stuck in the craw of the crapulent socialists. As Ben Franklin once said "The sting in a rebuke is the truth". Perhaps the continentals do n't like being bested at the courtly art of ridicule.

Here it is again: There will be no/less terror when the people have a good life. So more money to the Palestinians.

"Frieden muss Prosperität bringen

Mahmoud Abbas braucht Hilfe. Aber nicht allein in Form von Waffen und Training für seine Sicherheitstruppen. Die Hilfe muss in großem Stil in den Palästinensergebieten geleistet werden, die unter den 55 Monaten Intifada entsetzlich gelitten haben. Wenn die Menschen in Hebron und Gaza, in Khan Younis und Ramallah spüren, dass sich Frieden und Aussöhnung in Wachstum, Arbeitsplätzen und Prosperität niederschlagen, dann schwören sie auch der Gewalt ab. Wenn sie sehen, dass sie sich tatsächlich in Würde und Freiheit in einem lebensfähigen Staat entwickeln können, dann werden die Israelhasser unter ihnen immer weniger Rekruten finden. Im Augenblick glimmt im Nahen Osten neben der offenen Flamme des Hasses endlich auch mal wieder ein Funken Hoffnung.
Stand: 08.02.2005 21:07 Uhr"


Give them houses, money, jobs, cars, hobbies and there will be no terror?

Why not fight against the real cause: hatred? There are many poor people and they don't kill their neighbours. But when people are filled with hatred because they learn already in kindergarden, at school, in the media, that Israel is responsible for their situation (what is wrong), when they learn that it is paradise to kill Jews, how can money stop this? Money money money heals it all? What a capitalistic view!

Hatred isn't the cause, hatred is a symptom. The cause is a lack of freedom of thought. A dictator can spend his days filling people with hate for Israel, the US, whoever they want. Give them democracy and they suddenly have a choice as to what to think, they can make their own decisions.

Gabi posts:
"Why not fight against the real cause: hatred? But when people are filled with hatred because they learn already in kindergarden, at school, in the media, that Israel is responsible for their situation (what is wrong), when they learn that it is paradise to kill Jews . . "

Up until the last sentence Gabi, I thought you were writing about the European media ~ writing about the U.S.A.
"... when they learn it is ok to hate and blame the U.S.A. for everything . . ."

I think Jay in the follow up post is partially correct, and that is perhaps the only reason the brainwashing of old Europe hasn't been complete.
That and a tip of the hat to people like "David's medienkritik" for pointing out how so much of the liberal circle jerking, that passes for the more "complex" and
"sophisticated" Euro~thinking is really nothing more than "simple," old fashioned, "black and white," non-thinking, bigotry.


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