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@ Joe,

'Pogue,
Have you met Phil?'

Thanks Joe, I am aware that there is anti-Americanism in Germany, probably more than you since I am German and have daily conversations with my countrymen. When I post, I usually argue about specific disagreements that I have with this blog and I have not so far (at least I hope so) disputed that there are too many Germans who have a negative attitude towards America.

But to be honest, I'd rather live in a country of anti-American Germans than in the neighbourhood of an American who says stuff like this:
'More to the point, I said if a single American dies as result of this and there will surely be more than one American, then france should be turned into a NUCLEAR WASTELAND because they have armed the combatants who will be trying to kill my fellow citizens'.

Did you just write that in the heat of the moment or do you mean it? If you meant it, please ensure access to a nuclear bunker. France is a nuclear power itself and would retaliate. And could the American people please convince the president to nuke the West of France so that my mum does not have to move away from the Franco-German border. Thanks.

Too many German puppeteers out of work, I'd conjecture. Where's the cabaret crowd when we really need them?

Phil,

Your last posting was interesting. I can see I did not clearly express what I was attempting to say.

As we both seem to agree on the point of lifting the EU Arms Embargo to China, but I think for probably different reasons, I am going to give you a detailed answer.

I am not sure how many individual postings it is going to take to do this. One of these is going to be a bit off topic but I am sure taken together you will see how it fits somewhat into the larger picture.

I am going to also post a couple of links. The material in those links I will only briefly cover if at all in my postings but these too need to be part of the context as you read my reply.

Finally these will not be in a particular order. I feel you need to do something ~smile~

should of used a few on germany as well as japan

@ Joe,

Weapons should never be sold to dictatorships or to any form of government besides democracies. I'm using the same reasoning that would prevent me from selling a gun to a criminal that might shoot your friend later.

So please don't waste too much time for me searching for links. My post was about your specific statement of nuking a country.

@schakel -

Yes I am well aware of the effects of pervasive propaganda, in current terms and as historical fact specific to the German people

I'd like to think that Mediakritik is part of the solution - so reccomendations that the US nuke anybody are not helpful ( enjoyable yes ;) )

Unless there is some effort to confront this kind of thing, more and more Germans will go off the deep end into pathological hatred of Bush - and frankly of any American who supports him ( ie - the majority of us )

But I always bear in mind that there are plenty of Germans who do understand the wider implications of Islamic facism, 9-11 and the progress toward Eurabia

It will be much easier to deal with these things now than to wait another 5-10-20 years

I am often told by Europeans that we in the US just don't understand the fear of war - we were never invaded, occupied, bombed - etc

That may be so - but by the same measure we never followed a path of appeasment that led to all of the above - so why do we get THAT - and the Europeans don't?

@pogue

"I am often told by Europeans that we in the US just don't understand the fear of war - we were never invaded, occupied, bombed - etc"

My response would be :

1) never invaded - war of 1812
2) occupied - 1812 & does the civil war count?
3) bombed - Pearl Harbor

But to the "sophisticated" Europeans, the Americans could NEVER understand that: they're just too backwater... I think the truth is with the fact that we have both soft power and hard power. Whilst Europe's soft-power batteries are dwindeling...

"but by the same measure we never followed a path of appeasment that led to all of the above - so why do we get THAT - and the Europeans don't?"

Correct. We fight wars to exact a better peace.

@ Pogue

I agree that something should change rather sooner than later in Europe, and that Medienkritik is part of the solution. I find it amazing when you compare the comments in Davids Medienkritik to the ones in Medienkritik Online. You can tell where the majority of the German readers stand.

I can't speak for the French or Brits because I have never lived there. What I don't understand about Germans is why they have such a blind trust in their media and academia. These are, like in almost every part of the world, dominated by leftists and often dishonest extremists. I see it everyday in TV and in print. Why aren't these "so called" reporters questioned? One would expect the Germans to have learned from their own history...

Another thing I noticed is that many Germans see this Blog as "Americans bitching about Germans", which it really isn't, and so they go into the defensive. They don't realize that many of the people posting are Germans themselves shocked by what is being presented as "objective information and news" in their own country. Americans have similar problems with their media and are disgusted as well. I am sure that if many Germans would just stop and take an honest look at most of the stuff in this and similar blogs, they will end up agreeing that there is a problem.

Yeah, "nuking comments" aren't very productive, but I see them as gut reactions to the pictures in this posting - like you said, they shouldn't be taken seriously.

Schakal - for my part I am not German but the son of immigrants from Europe - well Ireland anyway - and have lived in London most recently and travelled widely around Europe

The failure to provide any counterpoint the "conventional wisdom" of the media is the biggest problem in europe today

Don't europeans wonder why Bush was re-elected - or are they so blind that they are happy just to write off 60M+ Americans as ignorant dupes

At least in the US there is some kind of debate about Iraq - in Europe it seems one most toe the party line or be ridiculed

I for one always engaged any reasonable person who was interested in such a discussion - rarely to any effect - but I must admit that getting these folks to confront their own bias was often amusing

Just ask "can you be in favor of democracy for the Iraqis even if George Bush is as well"

or "why do you think arabs can't have democracy - are they different from us?"

or my favorite "You liked Clinton a lot more - tell me what he did that you liked - or was it that he looked better on tee-vee to you?"

@ Pogue

I wasn't born in Germany, but I am a citizen and have lived here for most of my life.

I have shown this funny video about Clinton to some friends here, and it seemed to make your point:

http://www.brainterminal.com/video/clinton-legacy/index.html

Thats pretty funny stuff - how does it play in Germany?

Actually surprisingly well because of the subtlety, if the people understand the English (which isn't that easy for foreigners). The last part of the interview takes a while to hit them, and then it really makes them think. The responses are somewhat like "you know, we Germans love Clinton too, but we aren't able to tell you why either. I wonder why...". They'll take some days to come up with something and end up with nothing, other than the arguments which are easy to nuke right off the bat: "he didn't wage war" - "he improved life for the minorities" - "the economy was great (what does that matter to foreigners?)" - "he was victimized by mean republicans", and so on.

"@Phil, what you don't get, is that Americans think for ourselves.'
'So, when Americans see in the pro-French Mainstream Media, what the French do, we can read between the lines, connect the dots and think for ourselves.'"

"No you don't. Nobody does. You, like every other American or German, have access to countless sources of information and you have to choose which ones to believe. Are you telling me that you are anti-French because you watched the MSM and 'connected the dots'? No way, you probably read a newspaper, you talk to friends and collegues and you surf the net and have formed your opinion based on the informations that you thought were important."


Phil, obviously, I'm on the internet. How is your statement not the same as "thinking for oneself": "...every other American or German, have access to countless sources of information and you have to choose which ones to believe."?

Schakal - yes - that "he didn't go to war" stuff is great - like going after OBL in Afghanistan in 1998 or 1999 would have been a bad idea!

I have had people actually say he was right not to do so then because "it would have been illegal"

Amazing

Phil,

I understand that.. but this has to be into context.

Jebus Christ, did you actually look through all the pictures this post linked to? It seems that the only thing Germans HATE even more than GWB is a) the Christians, b) their own politicians and c) their own Soccer Players. It is a Carnevals-Parade for crying out loud!

I have been reading recently about the history of the bombing of Germany during WW2. After enduring the sneers of the 'Squareheads'; excuse me, the Germans - I live in Poland - and seeing these pictures representing German 'gratitude' for the last 60 years, I can only conclude that we didn't kill nearly enough of them, though the survivors appear to have been an inferior breeding stock.

A few words from a German who likes Bush´s foreign politics...
In Germany there is a "dark age" :( it is politicially corret and "hipp" to be a Left Winger. Crazy Fanatics like PETA, Greenpeace, or even the German Green Party (who builds the Government with the left wingers from the SPD) rule the (also by leftwingpeople dominated) media.
Socialism is - even if it failed in every country where they tryed it - seen as the good side and capitalism - even if it keeps all of our wealth alive - is seen as the pure evil.
The more the socalists ruin our economy - the more they blame it for the socialistic-caused defects. Higher unemployment, fear for the future and a general dislike of modern technology. Look at our gasoline prices. We pay 1.15 €uro per litre (not per gallone) just because of stupid taxes.

The german system is sick. Somebody who is unemployed can get a higher "salary" (its to much to call it wellfare imho...) than a worker. The last (sick) law they passed is the "Anti-discrimination-act". If you f.e. don´t want to accept a hirer for your flat he can go to law say that he is discriminated because he is f.e. a muslim, and you HAVE to hire him your flat.

I fight battles everyday in discussions - if someone discovers that i DONT hate Bush... its politically incorrect to LIKE him. I think most of our establishment consits of anti-americanistic people. They dislike the jews, the "jewish-east-coast", israel, the politic of israel, the bible-belt and the "hardcore-capitalistic-american-economy" (we know that it is not).

Every joke/issue/text against the american foreign politic is "hipp" and in schools teachers (another group of almost left-wingers) tell the pupils how evil Bushs behaviour is - my nephew complains about this several times.
Its "hipp" to hear Groups like "anti-flag" and to wear stupid "PACE" flags. No one thinks a moment about the people in iraq or about the women in afghanistan. Michael Moore´s Books/Movies are the top-sellers in Germany - but not like in the US with a "konservative" contraband. Just "NO WAR" ... this state! not the country but the establishment sucks.

A word to the "Karneval" and the "Anti-Bush" and "Anti-Merkel" float. In a normal way german karneval contains a very "hard" humor. The Ass of Bush was used several times before on as the ass of other people.
Do not overestimate this float- it is not the float to think about - it is the f***ing stupidity of our state and the majority of our citizens.

I "beg" you to see the minority in our country - don´t talk about ALL germans in this hard way. Its the establisment which should be blamed.

P.S.: please excuse my poor english...

@I m stiles: Poland sucks, it sucked before WWII and it sucks after, you lousy little suckers thought you could play "Empire" and "tortured" the German minority in "your" stolen kingdom to blackmail Germany to attack.

Great as I remember the ass of dubya

I really don't have the energy on this dreary New York City day to engage in highfalutin exchanges about the relationship between the US and Europe.

But as a student of psychology, am I the only one who sees an amusing commonality between the way the US is regarded in Old Europe and the way snotty teenagers relate to their parents? Its ironic given the relative brevity of the US as a nation and a culture, but I can't help but feel when I watch these exchanges that in spite of the plague of cynicism amongst the European leaders and media class, we are nonetheless dealiing with a Europe that displays all the idiotic unseriousness of youth seeking their own identity apart from their parents.

Who's your daddy, Europe? That's right, we're your daddy. And we'll go about the adult work whether we have your permission or not. You can hate us. We don't care, because we know we're doing the right thing.

I've just stumbled on this blog and forum today. It is interesting to read both sides of the issues, but what really disgusts me is the level of discourse from certain individuals.
Statements like "Who's your daddy, Europe?" are, I can guarantee, no help at all. As much as I personally disdain the European proclivity for nonsense like Michael Moore appalling, let's put things in perspective. The U.S. is a superpower with unprecedented influence in the world, why should Americans be surprised it stirs up resentment or jealousy? Besides, let's be honest, isn't it also possible that things like weapons of mass destruction not being found in Iraq hurt American credibility?
I think it would do us all good to step back emotionally from this issue. There are ignoramuses in this world, both in Germany and in the U.S. I understand the outrage at this Bush float; I thought it was despicable too.
But look at the broader picture. Let's not pretend either country has an impeccable record in dealing with foreign tyrannies. In the past, America supported the Shah's Iran, Suharto's Indonesia, Saddam's Iraq, and South Vietnam. Today it supports various unsavory regimes, like Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan. Germany has given support to the likes of Iraq and China.
The problem is both use flowery language of developing democracy abroad even while they support dictators. It makes sense to point out the wrongness of one particular policy or another, but it certainly is harmful simply to throw around generalizations and invectives. A little civilty here, please...
I personally have a bone to pick with both sides. I see much of Bush's foreign policy as imprudent but, at the same time, view the Chirac-Schroeder posturing about the war as hypocritical and opportunistic. Does anybody else view things this way or are we all doomed to such nonsensical hostile discourse?

@ ojc, Me thinks your being a tad thin skinned. I'm guessing most of the commentors here are not doing it for a grade, have no plans of running for office and have day jobs. Thus...they are free to shoot from the hip. So lets praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Niko,

Germany doesn't support Iran., unles you want to classify the German, French and British negotiations.

That should havew been "unless you want to classify the German, French and British negotiationsthat way"

@ std, Your analogy of Old Europe as a snotty teenager is as our old peculiar British cousins say "spot on". Continuing with this theme, I'd liken Old Europe to an Adult child that blames all it's problems on a good but flawed parent. This prodigal errant seed then becomes a two-bit crack-whore, becouse it did n't receive enough hugs. As Charles De Gall once said "Germany is the horse, France is the rider", one can only wonder if Herr Schroeder is getting a reach-around out of this accommodation.

@Niko,
I am not arguing that America is not a victim. It was the victim of a terrible crime in the form of September 11th. And everyone connected to that act directly deserves the full wrath of America. That's why Afghanistan was imminently justified. But how to prosecute the actual war on terror seems to me to be a legitimate area of contention.

Still, isn't it important to place fault where fault is due? Was Iraq ever linked to 9/11? No it wasn't. Did Iraq have the kind of WMD that Colin Powell claimed during his speech at the UN? Some argued at the time that Powell was using false info. The post-war search for WMD seems to have vindicated these people. Does the veracity or falsity of the administration's claims not make any difference whatsoever? Please demonstrate why or why not.

Bush made serious claims, ones that ended up justifying a rather serious war. If these claims were flawed--as many were pointing out while they were being made--do we hold Bush responsible? I think it's eminently fair to hold somebody responsible for statements affecting the lives of millions of ordinary people. That's all, I'm not calling for the head of Bush on a platter.

I agree that a forum like this is a good place to "shoot from the hip," but what's wrong with taking people to task for shooting wildly? Much of the reasoning expressed here appears pretty often in America. Think of AM talk-radio or Ann Coulter. These are opinions held by many people, included rather influential ones. That's why I felt obliged to respond to them. I think that too much of what I hear--both from my European friends against Bush and from my American friends against Europe--is bound up too closely with a kind of blind emotion. I've seen a little of both passions in this forum; can't I protest when this shows up?

Furthermore, as a hypothetical consideration, is using language like calling Bush "the next Hitler"--a common epithet of the loonier anti-war folk--or the statement of "Who's your daddy, Europe?" really constructive? We shouldn't all sit around talking our problems away, as the UN likes to do, but injecting national insults into a discourse about Iraq is little too much.

Let me make this clear, the posturing of most of the anti-war crowd is hypocritical and intimately tied up with irrational anti-Americanism. The float in Mainz was a tasteless example of this kind of dangerous absurdity. But being against that kind of irrationality and, at the same time, being against specific Bush policies because they are imprudent is not paradoxical. Make sense?

@Del Hoeft and Niko, I wasn't directing my comments against the entire forum, clearly many of the comments made here--on both sides--are insightful and judicious. I'm new to this kind of forum, so forgive my oversensitivity. I'm just wondering about certain comments I've seen. For instance, what was the deal with the anti-Polish invective? And surely "nuking Europe" or "invading Germany" are suggestions made in jest and in the heat of the moment, right? As for calling Europe "a two-bit crack-whore, becouse it did n't receive enough hugs," let that speak for itself.

Niko,

I just checked, that's for private deals. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

@Niko:

Not-so-subtle distinction: The "protection and [..] full endorsement of the current German government" applies to domestic exporting businesses, not the government of the importing country.
There is no international trade embargo against Iran, nor is it clear that there should be one (just look at Cuba or North Korea).

Yeah, we have trolls here, too. Please ignore them.
thanks for the hint, I will ignore you in the future!
greets from spain

As an AAl flight attendant , this is the last thing we need in our charming town. Why Mainz??? Why not Frankfurt?? Most soldiers I bring over hate Bush! I can't understand why he doesn't get it.

Thanks,

Cheryle

@ Cheryle

Hmm, that's a funny bunch of soldiers you've been talking to. Probably civilians wanting to impress a stewardess. The most I know love and respect the President...
So don't bring up these BS anedotes. Care to see some real statistics? It's not even close! Most US military would love to see their president in Frankfurt. They're not happy about Mainz either.

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