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Your last comment made me think I have to take back my last answer. You just showed your real face. You write that you hope that Germany becomes an ally to terrorist countries so that America can finally attack it. It sounds like you really hate us, no matter what we do. Do you imagine how nice it would be to be able to kill Germans legitimately? What's wrong in your head? I noticed that you systematically wrote germans and germany with small capital letters but Americans and America and Israel. What made you hate us so much? (And don't tell me it's because we criticize your president.)

A recent CIA forecast (take that for what it's worth) foresee's that NATO will be disbanded as the EU moves to it's own Euro forces.


It all sounds pretty plausible.

About being allies, I think it's obvious that Germany is doing some things that aren't exactly in line with things that allies would do for each other.
Chief among them is trying to lift an arms ban towards China. The great & noble goal of making more money for their home based military industries is pushing them to provide arms to a country that where there is a possible future conflict already lined up with the USA. It looks like a pretty blatant attempt to check the US. Taiwan is a US ally & China insists that it's just a renegade province. Sure it's not in either's economic interests, esp. China's & that's why nothing will probably ever happen, thank God. But if China ever perceived a weakness in the US, do you think they would hesitate for a second to take Taiwan over? I'd say probably not because if they could get away with it at little to no cost, it would have been done long ago. What do you think happened with Tibet? What ever happened to all those cool "Free Tibet" bumper stickers by the way?

I also think Germany is letting their business contracts fog up their glasses when they're looking at the Iran situation. Peaceful nuclear energy is perfectly fine & acceptable. However, color me a little bit sceptical when it comes to a govt. who chants "Death To America" in their parliament. Nuclear weapons aren't some toy that all the big boys get to play with, and countries with such pleasant "pep-talk" in their parliament don't exactly inspire a warm fuzzy feeling.
Germany is still involved in Afghanistan, as far as I know, and that's good of them at least.
I do see the US pulling out of Europe, except for a few major bases. Thankfully, the threat of war with the Soviets is over & not likely to ever come back, and really, the US has little need for a major presence there given that that is not where the problems are.

Any talk about war w/ europe/germany is pretty fricken retarded. Plz, let's avoid such silly talk.
Anyways, that my 2 cents

You said that you served as a soldier in Germany. Have the people here been so mean to you? If I had to guess I would guess that you are jewish and you are keen on taking revenge for relatives killed 60 years ago by my grandpa's generation. If that's your attitude it makes me really sad but I could'nt do anything about it.

oops, I should have capitalized Europe/Germany in my last post ;)

I forgot to write that this was adressed to Joe and written by former "I can't believe my eyes"


I agree with you that it is pretty stupid to try to lift the ban on China. China is not a democratic country and still hasn't undone the things that led to the ban in the first place.

Yes, Germany still has troops in Afghanistan and, as far as I know, no plan to remove them.

g-punkt, I see you've changed your name, & are joining into the fray. May many pleasant arguments on this site be yours. If nothing else, we at least get to exchange raw viewpoints, which lead to better understandings, and all that other gaywad hippie stuff.

I can't believe my eyes,

I observe the German media now for more than 4 years. The German politicians and media threw so much shit on the US, that it made us sick. I was angry and sick. I couldn't bear it any longer. So, please, keep this in mind: Germany started a verbal war against the US!!!
Don't be too sensitive. when some people might be disappointed and angry. They have every right to do so.
Americans gave their lifes for us. They died for us, for liberating us, for our democracy, for our safety. Mothers sent their sons, women their husbands. What high price did they pay to help us.
Germany started this shit. Don't forget it. And the US was there, whenever the world needed them.
This new hatred is shameful.
To feel anger and a kind of hate is a normal reaction to this German hate, what we are spreading since 9/11.
The American people were our friends. I was proud to live in Germany under the protection of the US.
What happened now is shocking.
People like Schröder, Claudia Roth, Bütikofer and so many destroyed this friendship because they are nothing more than Hampelmänner. Jumping Jacks. French Jumping Jacks.
We disappointed the American people. Now we get an answer, if we like it or not.

@dood: I'll do my best. :)

@Gabi: Once you write: ...it made us sick. The next time: ...gave their lives for us. Are you German or American? Because of your earlier postings I guess you're the German wife of an Anerican soldier. You should be able to understand both sides. We should try to be informative and eliminate prejudices and false informations on both sides instead of increasing hatred.

There is something between black and white. I'm critical to both the position of U.S.government and the position of German government.

I can_t believe my eyes

ich verstehe dich nicht. Was willst du mir sagen?

@gabi: Du versuchst mir klar zu machen, warum Leute wie RSN Deutschland so hassen. Ich versuche dir klar zu machen, dass wir diesen Hass durch Information bekämpfen müssen. Genauso wie ich den Standpunkt der amerikanischen Regierung kritisieren kann ohne "anti-amerikanisch" zu sein akzeptiere ich es, wenn der Standpunkt der deutschen Regierung kritisiert wird (mit der ich ja selber nicht übereinstimme). Wenn aber "die Deutschen" als Volk mit ihrer Regierung und ihren Medien gleichgesetzt werden und aus der (berechtigten) Kritik Hass und Hetze wird, akzeptiere ich das nicht und versuche etwas dagegen zu tun.

I can’t believe my eyes,

You need to stop and think once again. *g*

I did not say that I hoped germany would become an ally of terrorists’ nations and I did not imply that was my hope. If you read my posting that way, then something got lost in the translation, which by the way I admire your ability to read and write in English. Something that I cannot do in German. It is also possible that my sentence structure might have confused you. For this I apologize.

What I said is your nation is in the process of allying with the nations I listed. Those nations being Russia, China, Iran and the PA. These I would not consider to be beacons of freedom. Germany is doing this in different degrees and with different techniques but the results are the same.

Tell me that is not what germany is doing. It might not be your intent but that is in fact the results of these decisions. And these choices are being reported by your media and announcements from the government in berlin.

I think those choices are the wrong ones. I think two things are driving them. The first the desire for germany to be a world player. The second as a market for the goods produced in germany.

I cannot believe you or any other german would be pleased with what in happening in Russia. I also cannot see how you believed there have been any changes in China that would warrant the selling of weapons to them. Nothing has materially changed with the reasons the EU first established the embargo other than the economies in Europe are stagnant..

I also cannot believe that anyone in germany thinks a nuclear Iran is a good idea. It is one of the world’s greatest sponsors of terror.

For Iran you have no second option. If your “soft power” fails, germany has no second option nor for that matter does the eu. In fact, all of the eu3 have ruled out the use of hard power. So you are prepared to allow Iran to go nuclear. This tells me you think that is both a good idea and in the best interest of germany. Or it tells me that today it is not worth the effort of germany to prevent this from happening.

I disagree with the choices berlin is making because they are not only not in the best interests of germany but of the world. I would hope you could see that too.

As for the way you read my last paragraph I am not sure how to state it more clearly. It says if you endanger Americans and America by the choices you are currently making then you will become an enemy of the US. The actions the US would take would be very much in response to the choices you are making and will make in the future.

My hope is that it will never come to that. At the same time, I also want you to realize that if does the US will react much as it has in the past with what will probably be the same results.

Of course, the world did not know in the 1920’s what would happen in the 1940’s either.

Gabi, JR et al,

If you can in anyway express to "I can't believe my eyes" more clearly what I am attempting to say please feel free to do so as I think there would be a huge benifit to him and to some others.


I normally to not respond to comments such as yours as they contribute nothing to the thread. This time I will.

I am not really sure how to respond to you. But to share with you, two points, I am not Jewish. Being Jewish I would hope would have little to do with this discussion.

It seems however with at least for you it does. It seems to be the only thing you can find to reply with.

And for your other question, no people in germany were not mean to me. I enjoyed my 3 tours of duty there and with NATO.

@ Joe,

You recommend a lot of stuff to me and I might give you a longer reply when I have the time but a couple of points:

1. I didn't talk about any 'issues' prior to 1938 so I think your comment about me not having a grasp of German history is meant for somebody else.
2. If you think that Europe and the US could become enemies in the long run, you are clearly in disagreement with GWBush and many conservative thinkers who argue that, in order to create lasting peace, countries have to be led to democracy and freedom. Genuine democracies, so goes the argument, have never fought a war against each other. I agree and i support quite a few ideas of GWB. You don't seem to share that view if you predict conflict between Europe and the US
3. I was for the war in Iraq and disagreed my government. But GWB was elected in the US cos he had principles and I like that. Schröder was against the war and stuck to his opinion and that's fine by me. It's not working agains the US, it's standing up for your point of view.

and to RSN:

viewing Germany as a greater threat than two countries who are dictatorships and who are on the brink of becoming nuclear powers is ridiculous.

Finally let me give you the link of this Rober Kagan article. I noticed that many of the people on this blog refer to him and his (very good) book on Europe and America. This article however, takes a very positive stance on what Europe and the US can achieve together. Hope you guys get a chance to read it. You might have to register for free though.


I can't believe my eyes,

warum bekämpfst du denn nicht den Haß in Deutschland durch Information.

Hier hat es angefangen. Du bist Deutscher. Kümmer dich doch um dieses Problem und setz Informationen dagegen.

Das ist genauso merkwürdig wie die Forderung, Frieden im Nahen Osten dadurch zu erreichen, daß Israel nicht mehr den palästinensischen Terror bekämpft.

Deutsche sollen mit dem Haß aufhören, dann kommt auch kein haß zurück.

Palästinesische Terrorgruppen mögen ihren Terror einstellen, dann muß er nicht mehr bekämpft werden.


I really was not trying to tell "I can't believe my eyes" off and I surely do not feel he is a Kraut snot.

What I do feel is he is much like me or I would like to believe at this point he is, just younger.

How we differ is he suffers from being misinformed and uninformed because he has been given only a very narrow window to view the world we live in today. It is unfortunate that window is tinted by his elites. Which of course would lead him to come to the positions that he has so far taken.

I really cannot fault him personally for that either. He has been programmed over time and one could say it has been very effective or it surely would seem to be. It is his elites who have given him this picture or window to view the world from.

I will share with you an incident, which I experienced during the last german national election. I think you will find it a bit interesting.

It started when schroder got off message about the supporting the pending possible war in Iraq. As he was speaking to a group of his followers, it was well received. It was widely reported in the german media and was picked up here in the US but not given much media play at all. In fact, at the time the White House really downed played as much as possible. This was followed by communicates from berlin to not to worry about this rhetoric as it was all part of the campaign and was a miss-speak. At the time, the WH had agreed not to bring up Iraq as an issue. This was as much to help gerhart as anything because they knew it could be a problem for him. Still he had agreed to support the US and in fact when the war started he did insure that his goverment did provide the all agreed upon support prior to the election.

For schordier this position had traction and legs and started to gain him support with what was up to that time a more or less demoralized spd electorate. Remember he was behind in every pre election poll at the time.

This was shortly followed by the famous – no that was not said statement of comparing President Bush to Hitler. The more this statement was tried to be explained away the messier it became. The final and I think the agreed upon german position was that while it was off the record> What was meant was President Bush was some how trying to distract the American people from the condition of their economy with the discussion of the threat which Iraq presented to our national security.

At least this became the most acceptable explanation to the germany people. Which as it was their internal election they could chose to believe whatever they wanted to. This too caused even more communiqués between berlin and Washington.

What I found to be interesting, funny and sad all at the same time, was what the germans were accusing President Bush of doing was just what they themselves were doing. The spd created the Iraq war as an issue and all eyes became focused on that. The real important issues to germany, the unemployment, education, structural reform, all got washed away. Iraq played to all the emotions of the german people. When schroder won, he was now in a box, a box he created between the US and the german people. This is where we are today.

This was also the point in time or I feel it was when it became fully acceptable to be anti-American. Schroder’s action brought this as an acceptable position for germany to take into the mainstream of german life. From this single series of actions and events, our nations are now on two very different paths.

So you have to stop for a minute when you read the comments of someone like “I can’t believe my eyes” and realize just what their understanding and environment actually is.


You're right, Schröder used the war on Iraq and the flood in eastern Germany to win his election. You just have to remember, not every German did vote for Schröder. Almost as many people voted for a CDU/CSU/FDP coalition, whose candidate refused to take a position for or against Iraq, because he felt, that there weren't enough facts to decide on either position. The CDU/CSU has supported the war on Iraq even after the defeat at the elections.


@ RSN,

'To hell with them. If in the future we will be enemies, well then, so be it. Bring on the war'

Great stuff. So we disagree on issues and you are hoping for a war. Forget Iran or North Korea, Europe is the real enemy


That was the comment my post to you was directed at.

You comments about what amounts to the future of the trans-Atlantic are open for debate. There is no question together the US and europe can accomplish more. Right now that is not happening because much of euorpe seems to feel much better working against the US. So what actions your nation is taking must be considered to be in the best interest of germany. Fair enough.

Should this trend continue, then the relationship will continue to deteriorate. At what rate and what outcome is all that is in question under these circumstances.

@ Joe,

I take your point and I am very much for a foreign policy that is favourable to all democratic states and tough against tyrannies. I also support democracy in Iraq and everywhere else. But I also believe that the majority of Germans, Americans, British etc share the same values. The main issue of divergence, in my opinion, are the methods of achieving the ideals we hold. This is what I like about Kagan's book. Because of their military might the US might have very different ideas of how to approach problems. But I firmly believe that our underlying values are the same and that's why I am not worried about the future.
God... I sound like Tony Blair


Yes you do sound a lot like Tony Blair. Please do not get me started on him and the role he attempted to play between france, germany and the US prior to the war. I personally consider him to be one of the great leaders of our time.

And yes I read Kagan. I also read the publications of a lot of international relations think tanks both in the US and in Europe. You are much more optimistic than I am. I can only look at the last 15 years and to use the nick of someone here.. “I can’t believe my eyes”

Not too long ago I read an article by some Brit professor who was writing for a UK think tank. The one single comment that I thought worth remembering was how he described the differences between Americans and Europeans. It was Americans want to solve problems and Europeans want to manage them.

I think we can clearly see these differences at play in the approach that is being taken with Iran.

The problem again as it was with Iraq, once the manage the problem approach fails, germany and the Europeans do not bring a second option to the table..

By pretending nothing more can be done, means not only have we given up but that nothing will be done.

David, you need to refresh your classes in logics.
The ad is actually not telling any lie, according to your own investigations.
What Handelsblatt only claims is that NASA introduced the space-pen and that costs were over 1Mio. Ad doesn't say that NASA invested the money, as you prove it was a private project.
Then, ad said that Russians solved the problem with a pencil. This is also true (ad doesn't say Americans used pencil too before Apollo, but omitting the fact is not same as lying, isn't it?). So, there is no a word of lie in this ad.

I would agree that it's kind of funny, and you seem to take it seriously, please don't.

Putting two disconnected sentences together under the assumption that people will connect them is a common method of lying by the press. Each individual sentence may not be a lie but the message is.

Try this for a headline for your local newspaper (but substitute your real name for "Rookie"):

"The nation has a very serious problem with wife-beating, and enacting strict laws to control the problem hasn't seemed to help. Rookie has yet to be brought up on wife-beating charges".

I don't know if you're German or US or even male, but that's not the point - what do I have in quotes that's a lie? Would that mean it's okay? Would that mean it's NOT a lie?

Rookie, you need to refresh your glasses.
What Handelsblatt claims is that NASA developed the Space Pen.
Nasa did not develop the space Pen.
Fisher developed the space Pen.

Besides that, the piont is that the ad is a stupid blunder and misleading.
What does that say about Handelsblatt?
That the Handelsblatt makes stupid blunders and is misleading.

Of course we dont take it seriously, because we know it's false. But most Germans believe it and add it to their misconceptions.

Well, you know this topic would get my attention eventually...

Here's my take on it. As some of you know here, I live in a city in the U.S. where a significant percentage of the population (including myself) works on NASA and military space programs. And, this town also has a significant proportion of people of recent German ancestory, descendents of the von Braun rocket team.

About this ad: The main feeling that I get out of it is that it is astoundingly ignorant, and damn proud of it too. First of all, there is the point already made here that NASA didn't use government money to develop the pen; Parker spent its own R&D money on it. But that's not even the main point. The main point is: the interior of a spacecraft is a clean-room environment, and it is absolutely verboten to take a pencil inside because of the dust that the use of pencils creates. I've been inside of a few spacecraft, including two Shuttles, and one rule that is rigidly enforced is that the only people who ever go inside the spacecraft without the full bunny-suit-and-mask-and-gloves treatment are the astronauts themselves. (Even Presidential candidates have to obey this rule, as John Kerry found out.) All reasonable precautions must be taken against the possibility of contaminating the interior, because when the spacecraft reaches orbit, everything will float free and the danger to both the crew and the spacecraft itself of miscellaneous debris floating around is considerable. This is called "FOD", and something like finding a loose screw or a chunk of lint is cause for a full-up investigation and review that can end with the person responsible being fired.

Now, to expand on my point: Europeans are fond of saying that Americans are ignoramuses who don't know as much about Europe as they should. Well, I grew up at a time when we were given considerable education on European history, because our own background lay in that history. Schools in the U.S. today have been dumbed down a lot since then, but I daresay there still aren't too many children who come out of school without at least some idea of what London, Paris, and Berlin are all about. Yes, the point is taken that more Americans should have a better working knowledge of what Europe is about, but the situation really isn't as bad as it is portrayed. By contrast, and by means of direct personal contact with a number of them, I have found that many Europeans don't know anything whatsoever about the U.S. Not one thing. They have no concept about it at all, or if they do, it's so wrong that it's laughable. And yet many of these same Europeans feel fully qualified to sit in moral judgement of all things American.

And coming back to this ad: To me, it is so glaringly ignorant that it is painful to consider. Ha-ha, the gluttonous Americans spent a million dollars to solve a problem that the Russians solved with a pencil. Well, let me tell you something missy. I've worked directly with the Russians on Mir, and with their hardware. And while their capabilities are in certain ways amazing, as far as what they can do with limited resources, I will also claim that they are almost criminally careless. Two astronauts and two cosmonauts that I trained and worked with came within minutes of being killed by their g-damn Mir piece of crap, because of slap-dash systems that had known problems and no one on the Russian side did anything. Because they don't care. Not just about Americans, but about their own people too. Their culture seems to have a basic disregard for human life; they seem to think "well, we can always get anouther cosmonaut, so who cares what happens to this one?"

So yes, if some German newspaper wants to promote a basic disregard for human life in order to poke fun at the stupid Amis, then they can just go right ahead and knock themselves out. We'll just sit and watch. And take notes.

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