Germany's Handelsblatt Newspaper: Substance Decides?

This posting was forwarded to us by one of our readers, Fred H.:

Here is an ad currently being broadcast by the German news/documentary TV Station N24:

Handelsblatt TV ad (translated from German):

(A ballpoint pen is shown)

“Before the first manned space flight, NASA developed a ball point pen that can write in weightlessness without the ink running out. The development costs were over one million dollars.”

(A hand removes the pen, and replaces it with a pencil)

“This is how the Russians solved the problem.”

(The pencil slowly fades away, and in its place the text “substance decides” appears)

(The text slowly disappears, and a Handelsblatt newspaper appears)

However, it would seem that the Handelsblatt, which places so much weight on "substance" didn't even bother to take five minutes to check the premise of its ad.

According to NASA:

"During the first NASA missions the astronauts used pencils. For Project Gemini, for example, NASA ordered mechanical pencils in 1965 from Tycam Engineering Manufacturing, Inc., in Houston. (...)  

During this time period, Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co. designed a ballpoint pen that would operate better in the unique environment of space. (...)

Fisher developed his space pen with no NASA funding. The company reportedly invested about $1 million of its own funds in the effort then patented its product and cornered the market as a result.  

Fisher offered the pens to NASA in 1965, but, because of the earlier controversy, the agency was hesitant in its approach. In 1967, after rigorous tests, NASA managers agreed to equip the Apollo astronauts with these pens. Media reports indicate that approximately 400 pens were purchased from Fisher at $6 per unit for Project Apollo.

The Soviet Union also purchased 100 of the Fisher pens, and 1,000 ink cartridges, in February 1969, for use on its Soyuz space flights. Previously, its cosmonauts had been using grease pencils to write in orbit.    

Both American astronauts and Soviet/Russian cosmonauts have continued to use these pens." ---Steven J. Dick, NASA Chief Historian

It would appear that the advertising staff at the Handelsblatt is badly lacking substance. They've spent enormous sums on an ad that misrepresents the facts at the expense of NASA and the United States. The sad reality: Most Germans will believe the ad and snigger contemptuously at the supposed stupidity of NASA when they should be laughing out loud at Handelsblatt's embarrassing blunder.

That's the German media today.

Comments

[Jeff]

Let's assume that the facts in the ad were correct.

What would that contra-factual assumption prove?

That governments do stupid things? And Americans rely less on government than most nations, obviously, certainly less than the Russians do. So....

Alternatively, it may prove that experimentation is an inherently uncertain process. But experimentation and flexibility may represent success overall despite inevitable failures. If we judge a society simply by whether it has failures, we have chosen a stupid criterion. Let's see: the American failure was (by assumption) to spend $1 million on developing a pen while the Russian failure was to kill several million of its own citizens in the Gulag. The premise that America's failure was more weighty seems to imply that a Russian life is worth considerably less than a dollar.

Of course, let's remember that this is an ADVERTISEMENT. I have seen a few stupid American ones too.

[George M]

This is a beginning of another German "Ami" myth. It should be nipped at the bud!

The grand daddy of all German “Ami” myths is the Morgantal Plan. Americans are probably scratching their heads and asking "who's Morgantal?" However, every German over 18 can recite the Morgantal Plan...it is taught as propaganda in the schools, disguised as history.

Henry Morgantal was FDR's Secretary of Treasury. Approximately late 1943, FDR asked his cabinet to come up with plans for Post-war Germany. Morgantal, who was Jewish, and because of his position in Government, knew about the holocaust taking place in Germany, proposed that Germany be de-industrialized and reorganized into an agrarian society. FDR died in early 1945. There is no evidence that FDR gave this plan any credence, and it was obviously ignored by FDR’s successor, Harry Truman.

On the other side of the Atlantic, Goebbels, the Propaganda Minister, got wind of the Morgantal Plan. Goebbels used the this plan as so called evidence that Washington was ran by a jewish cabal that wanted to destroy Germany. Goebbels repeatedly cited the Morgantal Plan until he committed suicide with Der Fuhrer in the bunker.

After the war, the Morgantal Plan was kept alive by the German education establishment. I guess the reason that they did this is because "Shroeder thinking" types wanted to keep the Americans morally on par with the Russians. “Yeah, the Russians have divided up our country, and have brutally occupied the East, but the Americans wanted to make us all farmers!”

The Morgantal Plan was never a Plan. It was a Course of Action offered by Secretary of Treasury Morgantal. However, 3 generations of Germans believe in this myth and it is always brought out as a trump card, when debating whether Americans were kind occupiers. “Yes, the Americans have spent billions of dollars on Germany through the Marshall Plan, but they were going to turn us into farmers until they decided they needed our skills.”

At least, the zero-G pen had really cost a million bucks, (of private money) to develop. The Morgantal Plan has never had any truth to it.

[fuchur]

Well, what are we coming to! Now you can´t even trust the TV ads any more!
Did you also notice the pro-Soviet tone of that ad? I always knew those Handelsblatt guys are sneaky little closet Communists ;-)

[nobody important]

That pen saved the lives of one of the Apollo crews. On the lunar module there was an external switch that needed to be turned to start the rockets which would return the lunar module to the orbiting main craft. On one of the moon walks this switch was damaged by one of the astronauts. When this was discovered it was a real concern to figure out what to do. The lunar module was very stripped down piece of equipment and the astronauts had no tools. It was discovered that they had one of these space pens and the engineeres in Houston went to work to see if it could be used to turn the switch. After a while it was put into service as an impromptu tool and the switch was successfully turned. The lunar module returned safely to the main craft.

I have one of these pens, it has a gel ink and is pressurized by an inert gas to keep the ink flowing in zero gravity.

[Ambrose Wolfinger]

I agree with George M. with one small correction. It was the Morgenthau Plan, named after President Roosevelt's Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr.

A few years ago, my wife and I spent several days at the Cecilienhof in Potsdam, where the 1945 Potsdam summit took place. I was shocked at how much the historical exhibt devoted to the Morgenthau Plan. I don't recall anything being mentioned about the actual US occupation, much less the Marshall Plan. Otherwise, our stay at the Cecilienhof was absolutely delightful and I'd recommend it to anyone.

I always hear the following myths from a German when he discusses America's past with me: a) the Morgenthau Plan b) how the US came within one vote of adopting German as the official language (absolute nonsense, of course) c) our "genocide" against the Indians and d) America's "concentration camps" during World War II. My only conclusion is that the American history taught in German schools is as mendacious and politicized as the American history taught in American schools.

[Joe]

Jeff,

You see two dots.... and are able to connect them with ease.

How many of the germans who will see the ad will see the two dots......muchless be able to connect them.

I fear you give way too much credit here to the indepentent mind of the german people.

[Jeff]

Of course the Morgenthau Plan was a plan, but it was proposed, not adopted. That is historical fact.

It is also a historical fact that it was leaked, and the leak was used as an instrument of Nazi propaganda to prevent defeatism.

It is not surprising that such Nazi propaganda should have been taken over by the Communists to offset any prediliction for West over East Germany. Knowing nothing about modern Germany, I wonder if the same stress is placed on the proposals of Ilya Ehrenburg as those of Henry Morgenthau. I recommend reading "Kill" for those of you who are unfamiliar with Stalinist propaganda: "Germans are not human beings ... If you have not killed one German a day, you have wasted the day."

[Pogue]

Why don't they run an ad showing how the Wehrmacht produced so many different types of tanks in WW2 and spent enormous sums on idiotic prototypes like the MAUS super-heavy - while on the other side of the Urals Ivan was turning out those T-34's in record numbers

Isn't that a good example of Government stupidity in Germany V Russian practicalism

And its true, which might be of some interest

[Jeff]

@Pogue

We cannot talk about the T-34 because it was based on the design of the American, Christie.

[fuchur]

@george m
"The Morgantal Plan was never a Plan."
Worse yet: Morgantal wasn´t even Morgantal

[Germerican]

--Jeff, let's NOT assume that the facts in the ad were correct, as most Germans do. Let’s find out the truth.
Did Handelsblatt assume that the facts in the ad were correct, or did they deliberately lie?
Of course, let's remember that this is an ADVERTISEMENT, because in Germany there are strict laws about truth in advertising. Handelsblatt is trying to sell an old urban legend as decisive substance.
--“When the astronauts began to fly, like the Russians, they used pencils, but the leads sometimes broke and became a hazard by floating in the [capsule's] atmosphere where there was no gravity. They could float into an eye or nose or cause a short in an electrical device. In addition, both the lead and the wood of the pencil could burn rapidly in the pure oxygen atmosphere.” http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
--Either the Handelsblatt spends thousands of euros on TV ads, but doesn’t even bother to take five minutes to check if their advertising even remotely resembles the truth, or they are deliberately lying. In either case, they are doing it maliciously by trying to make Americans look stupid. But German media doesn’t seem to mind the stink of the carp as long it is being thrown at the US.
--Wird Spot des Jahres zum Spott des Jahres? http://www.bbdo.de/de/home/newsfolder/newsarchiv_2003/spot_space_pen.html

[Jeff]

@Germerican

This seems to be a tough blog to comment on. Even when you agree you get slammed.

My point was that even if the facts were true, the conclusion was idiotic. I am sure that if you tried you could find something where IN TRUTH Americans spent more money than Russians did in solving some technical problem. So what? If a single instance of that sort makes you conclude that the USSR was a more successful society than the USA or that Americans are stupid, you need a brain transplant.

I am sorry that you did not see the rather obvious point of my post.

[d00d]

Actually, it's Henry Morgenthau instead of Morgantal(sounds similar) was the Treasury Secretary.
I recommend reading "The Conquerors: Roosevelt, Truman and the Destruction of Hitler's Germany, 1941-1945" by Michael Beschloss

It seems the book is more about Morgenthau than it is Truman or Roosevelt, but it goes into much detail (so much so, it gets kinda boring) of the Morgenthau plan, about how he came to formulate it, why he wanted to be so severe towards Germany, how he promoted it throught his office in the Treasury, and ultimately why his plan got rejected. Morgenthau was a family friend to Roosevelt & the fact that Roosevelt didn't really show interest in his plan bothered Morgenthau on a personal level. This is a good book to see how post-war policy was developed & formed, and is based on lots of declassified documents from US,Germany,&Russia, and personal papers/diaries, etc. Good stuff , really.
Check it out on Amazon.com

I know from the book that it was a big propaganda device for the Nazis as soon as it became publicly known so that they would fight harder, lest it happen to them, but wouldn't imagine that an obviously discarded idea would still be used as such. Go figure. Who do they have staffing the school systems over there? A bunch of ex Nazi propagandists? Sounds like it.

I know some Germans here, and if ever one were to start laying their 'trump cards' on me, it would be nice to lay some of my own against them. Other than the all to obvious WW1/Nazi/WW2/Holocaust/beer guzzling, sausage chomping alcoholic stereotypically negative stuff, what are some good trump cards to throw back in their face, were I so inclined?
I've already been tempted in the past by arrogant German types ("Just like an American to tell me...blah blah blah". The more I think about that guy, the more I'd like to have called him out at the time) & it would be nice.
The rest of them I know/have known/met here, are/were great, of course, & only other one of them seems to have a problem w/ everything American even though they live here & are of course great themselves in all aspects except for that one.
From the Germans I've met, they all seem to have the impression that there's a anti-German sentiment here & look for things to validate this. Maybe there is somewhat one about the French...rude waiters, 'cheese eating surrender monkeys' & all that... but there really isn't one about the Germans & hasn't been one for as long as I can remember.

[d00d]

oops, shouldn't have say "they all think" in my last post, as that was not based on "all" the one's I'd met. "some seem to think" is a better way of putting it.

[lemmy]

Glad someone pointed out this absurd ad by the Handelsblatt on N24 (I just saw it over the weekend). Along the same lines, the next time I want to read some financial news, instead of buying the Handelsblatt newspaper (the pen), I'll just go and get my business/trade news on-line (pencil)!

But if I recall, this is the same television outfit (N24) that promotes itself with pictures of US soldiers carrying M16s shaped like a gasoline nozzle. Utterly pathetic.

[Jeff]

@d00d

Well if you want some real pieces of German stupidity to throw around, you could try the German declaration of war on the US because the Japanese had bombed the American Navy (great casus belli there.) Or you could try the decision in late 1916 to open up unrestricted submarine warfare because the Americans would not go to war or the decision in 1914 to invade Belgium because the British would not honor their treaty commitments. Or you could try the German pacification of what is now Namibia when it was a German colony. And on and on and on. Freiheit und Einheit got truncated to Einheit by Bismark. The political history of Germany is a rather depressing study.

[Pogue]

Not sure if you are being funny here Jeff

( We cannot talk about the T-34 because it was based on the design of the American, Christie. )

By that measure - ALL WW2 tanks were based on the Christie design to some degree

Frankly I think this particular case is more funny than serious

It seems like one of those things that, although false, are "truer" than the truth if you know what I mean

Yes, Nasa has spent a lot on tons of stuff, while the Russians sent people up with a lot less money spent

Why they need to poke fun at NASA is another issue - but I don't think most Europeans think of NASA as very political

[Germerican]

@ Jeff
Sorry Jeff, I didn't mean to slam you. My English is a bit rusty, and I was actually trying to make a complementary point. You’re right, even if the ad were true, it wouldn’t be so terribly bad by itself. In fact, if it were true, then it wouldn’t be bad, because then it would be the truth! (Am I starting to make bushisms?) But it’s either a lie or gross negligence, and that is bad, especially when it is repeated day after day after day…

[Jeff]

@ Germerican

No I should apologize for overeacting, and I do. Would that my German were as good as your English (including your proper use of the subjunctive, an amazing feat most English speakers fail to perform.) Unfortunately, ich habe alles vergessen, ich kann nicht mehr deutsch schreiben.

Clearly we do agree: it is bad that they repeat an untruth (your point,) which even if true would not be meaningful (my point.)

@Pogue

Yes, I was trying to be funny (ironical perhaps.)

[I can't believe my eyes]

Hello. I am a German. I'm visiting this site for the first time and I have to admit that I'm really shocked. What in the world are you guys talking about? Are you really serious? If I didn't get you totally wrong you are discussing an ad. OK. I read this ad here for the first time. Funny ad. No more no less. Do you know what sth like this is called? I think it's called humour. Didn't you get the joke or are you just so full of complexes that you expect the germans to think that Americans are all to stupid to use pencils when they see this ad? Hell, I didn't know you are so ashamed. Come on, relax! I tell you what some Germans will think when they see the ad: haha! Some others will think: huh? And the rest: bad one! I have some good advice for the poor people who began to think about Goebbels, gulags and the Morgenthau-Plan when seeing this ad: Go see a doctor. By the way, so many people on this site seem to know so much about us Germans. I always read: the germans do... the germans think... I fear you give way too much credit here to the indepent(!)ent mind of the german people... How comes you know so much about me and my fellow citizens? You know what I fear? I fear you have a tiny little man up in your head who tells you all these funny little stories.

Note from David: I love this comment, especially the part about the "tiny little man up in your head". This guy's humor is so typically German...

[Phil]

Oh my god!!!!

Wrong 'facts' in an advertisement? That has never happened before, has it? I'm sure the great majority of Germans will become even more anti-american when watching it. I think the outraged that people have expressed in this section is very much exaggerated.
But for those who care about it, let me cheer them up with an advertisement I came accross in a pub in London last week. It was for Ale called 'Spitfire'. I can't remember it word for word but it sounded like this:

"Spitfire: Downed all over Devon... Just like the Germans"

[Joe]

I can't believe my eyes,

Question - so the polling results that are presented and reported by the german MSM about german attitudes is in fact not true.

Is that your point or the position you are taking?

[Phil]

True, poking fun at inventors of a pen and people who were killed in a war is not the same. But to be honest, I laughed when I saw that ad cos it's so British: 'Don't mention the war' and all that. Ads tend to be (or try to be) provocative and funny. They want to communicate a message (be it that 'substance decides' or that people in Devon get drunk on Spitfire).

The position that I am taking is that advertisement in general is not honest. Despite that, it is certainly not responsible for anti-americanism among Germans.

Anyway, thanks to Medienkritik for teaching me something new today: I didn't even know that space-pens existed.

[I can't believe my eyes]

@Joe: No, I'm sure that these polling results are true. But they are concearned with the people's opinion about your government's foreign policies and not about the characters of the American citizens. Why do you take that personal? Noboby here thinks that you are bad. (Maybe there are some idiots who can't distinguish between people and actions but you can find such retards in any country.) But many people, not only in Germany but in most of the rest of the world (!!!) think that your government is telling lies. It seems to me that you want to believe that we hate you because you hate us for criticizing the Bush-administration. But why? You are free to believe in your government but I'm also free not to believe in it and to say that loud. The most important thing we learned from German history is that it's a very bad idea to follow the government blindly. Think about it!

[I can't believe my eyes]

@Phil: I've also seen that beer-ad and I laughed my ass off (German expression :-)). If I was an American I would have laughed about the space-pen, too. Come on! It wasn't a bad one!

[Germerican]

Maybe Phil is right. Maybe advertisement is not responsible for anti-Americanism in Germans.
But maybe anti-Americanism in Germans is partly responsible for the dishonesty of Handelsblatt.
Try this test of the Germans ability to recognise a lie: Search the web for NASA+Kugelschreiber+Schwerelosigkeit

[Phil]

I wouldn't call it a lie. I'd call it bending the truth.

@Germerican
Maybe I have been living in a different country for too long but I just fail to see the connection between poking fun at stuff NASA did (or did not) in the 60s and current anti-americanism. It is simply a myth utilised to get a message across and I am sure NASA won't be too pissed off about it. Surely this is trivial compared to so many stories about fake moonlandings going around the world.

What is a lie though, is that 'laughing my ass off' is a German expression. I have neverever heard that.

[George M]

@ I can't believe my eyes

Approximately 30 years ago, Volkswagon had a sucessful ad campaign in the United States. It depicted a water tight 1600 Beetle floating in a swimming pool with the caption, "maybe we make our cars too water tight." Most people thought that the ad was humorous and it made its point that the mightly little "Bug" was very well built.

The now defunct humor magazine, the National Lampoon, took the same VW ad and added its own caption, " If Teddy Kennedy had driven a Volkswagon, he would be President today."

Volkswagon did not see the humor in the National Lampoon's take on the ad. Volkswagon sued. Could it be the money that Volkswagon had given to Kennedy causes?

Some jokes are another man's reason for going postal.

[Jay]

If it were an ad for a pencil company, it could easily be written off as a joke. But this was an ad for a newspaper. Never mind if it's anti-American or not, it seems to me that the newspaper is advertising the fact they have no regard for the truth (of course that's assuming anybody in Germany actually knows the truth about the space pen).

Or is that newspaper the equivalent of our supermarket tabloids, where at least most people know it's "all lies, all the time"?

[Phil]

@ Jay
The main content is of financial and economic nature and therefore comparable to the FT or the WSJ. You have a point if you say that an ad for a paper should contain the truth so I guess they should have thought about harder. The main message however seems to be something like: 'We don't waste your time with writing about irrelevant stuff.'

[George M]

@ Jeff

The T-34 only had Christie's suspension design. The engine was ripped-off from an old Renault diesel design. The 76 mm main gun was similar to what the Sherman had at the time. The key to the T-34 success was its serviceability in the field.

@ Dood

The Michael Beschloss book is excellent. Our German friends should read it if they truely want to expunge the Morganthau Plan from their collective Gestalt.

The Morganthau Plan was never a real plan. It would not be a plan until FDR blessed it and asked his staff to implement it. It is properly called "a Course of Action." Certainly the Secretaries of State and War had to come up with similar proposals.

[Phil]

@ I can't...
Bin Deutscher aber das habe ich noch nie gehört. Gute Nacht

[jane m]

Michael Beschloss is the pre-eminent living writer of American history. He is meticulously accurate and unbiased. Every book he writes is truthful and the work of a master American historian.

this all here tells me alot about "american humor", thought americans can take a joke and only the germans dont have humor.......tztztz

[Joe]

I can't believe my eyes,

We differ very much in our respective points of view. In this case I think you are wrong because you do not understand the American people.

In our nation we elected our president directly. In this past election President Bush was the clear winner. More people voted for him than any president in the history of our nation. To put it another way, more people voted for President Bush than there are french in france.

You also cannot separate the positions our government takes or the positions of any one particular administration from the citizens of America. It is our government and the administration is carrying out the policies that the majority of us feel are correct.

So when we see American flags being covered in symbols of your history, the swastika, being burned and our President being referred to as Hitler or even being included in the same paragraph as Hitler, it makes us wonder about you. It makes us wonder about you as a people and as a nation. For your information there are two points you and many of your countrymen fail to consider. It is unfortunate but that is what your history and your elites have taught you. Those points are more than 90% of American families have had a member service under that flag in the military whose history we cerise and is a symbol of who we are both as a nation and as a people. Many of them lost love ones giving you the freedoms you now enjoy. Freedoms that I might add were given to you by Americans.

The other point you fail to understand is your belief we are divided but we are not nearly as divided, as it might seem. I can understand why it is possible you might think that if you choose to read the New York Times, or the Washington Post or watch CNN. All of these are now losing money because Americans are finding other sources of news and information. They find the spin by our own self appointed elites just does not stand the test of either truthfulness or reality.

I for one and many of my friends spent years in your nation prepared to die if necessary to defend young mothers and their children in Munich. In fact probably to die so that you might live. At the time we felt it was a noble thing to do, we were protecting freedom. And yes some of those young Americans died there doing their mission. I know because I had some in one of my units killed during a training exercise. So your freedom was not free as Americans paid a price for that freedom.

Today we are different. We are no longer allies. We share little in common. We view the world differently. We have different values and different morals. I am not really sure how all of this came about other than to say that two events were significant. These were the fall of the berlin wall and 9 11. Both of these and the impact they had on each of our nations has not been fully understood on either side of the Atlantic. The other thing is you have replaced the fascism of the Nazis with militant pacifism. You mock the very meaning of freedom by refusing to protect your own or be prepared to give it to others. Something your nation at one point in history wanted to take away and today enjoys by the efforts of others.

So while you give up your sovereignty we keep ours. While you forget your history we are making history. While you have difficult in determining how you will treat democracies and tyrants we have a very clear policy. While you talk we act.

As to your comment that you think the US is telling lies that is a problem, which has been caused by your own elites. I would challenge you to find one of those. And even before you start if you want to start on WMDs, I suggest you read the wording of UNSCR 1441. If you do and understand it, then you will know the actually finding of WMDs was secondary to the declaration that no WMDs existed in Iraq. This declaration was never made and was never accepted by the UNSC. At the time the US believed there were WMDs in Iraq, just as your own government did and just as the UN inspectors. So one has to act with the knowledge they have at the time. If we could do things over, then I am sure berlin would have been bombed to rubble in 1939.

So the lies you speak of are those that you want to believe. It is not a real problem for the American people. If there are lies being told they are being told in germany by germans about America, about Americans and about US policy. You still have 20% of your population who think 9 11 was a CIA plot.

So it is you and your nation who are blindly going down some path. You chose to look the other way as Russia become more authoritarian and individuals lose their freedoms because you become dependent upon them for more than 40% of your energy supplies. You talk to the government of Iran as they are building a nuclear weapon but then say we must defend Israel. You are preparing to arm China so that it can attack another democracy. You want an UNSC seat but your actions lead to the war in Yugoslavia because you chose to grant diplomatic reconnection to your World War 2 allies the Croatians. You say before there is even a vote by the UNSC you will not support that vote.

Just this week your Minster of Finance attacks the US about the strength of the dollar. He calls attention to our deficit spending but as a percentage of GDP it is less than your own. Your deficit breaks the rules that you demanded. So it is fine with you that germans can ignore whatever rules they choose. What the real economic problems that exist in germany are those that have been caused by the germans themselves. But like so much of what takes place now it is much easier to blame America. Remember we are the great evil; we are the greatest threat to world peace. It is too bad you did not feel like that went we standing watch on the inner germany border.

I could go on and on but it really is a waste of my time. So I will close with the following. I am indifferent to you, your opinions and your nation. I consider you owe us nothing and we owe you even less going forward. I look forward to the unwinding of NATO and the withdrawal of the US from western Europe. I wish you no ill will and good luck as you go forward as a nation. Having said that do not expect any support from me or more and more Americans who feel as I do. I suggest you read more comments on different topics to see how Americans attitudes are hardening toward your nation. Then I suggest you might change your log in name to something more like – What have We done.

And by the way, I have much great confidence in the history of my nation and its actions going forward, than I think you have in the history of your own nation.

It is obvious you have learned nothing from your history. You and your nation swim in a sea of hypocrisy. And do not think for one minute that if your actions endanger America or Americans that we will not be back just as our fathers and grandfather before us were there and this time you can have france.

[RSN]

Joe, thank you for telling that young kraut snot, "I can't believe my eyes", exactly what I wanted to say.

Germans are so full of shit. I am really learning to hate them. I'm sorry, I know that is an awful thing to say, but after twenty years of traveling back and forth between Europe and the US, I am sick and tired of German - and European - anti-American bigotry.

And it's only getting worse since the Cold War ended.

To hell with them. If in the future we will be enemies, well then, so be it. Bring on the war.

[Gabi to Joe]

Joe,
thank you very much for all your comments, especially the last one. You don't waste your time. You help a lot with the information, you are posting here. This is important. Somebody has to tell the truth. David and Ray are doing a great work. But your and others help is necessary! My husband and I felt lost here in Germany. What happened? We did not understand. We were angry, then sad, then indifferent, then angry again, puzzled. When we found this, we discovered, that we are not alone! We feel much better now.

It is hard work to write and speak against this lack of information here in Germany AND IN THE US. Joe, I saw Ms. Boxer against Rice! The problem is starting in the US with your biased people who are connected with Germany like NYT with Spiegel. I grew up with the knowledge, that the Democrats are better Americans. When my husband asked me WHY, I had no answer. I discovered my manipulation by media. I started to read history books and discovered the lack of information in our media especially about the MidEastConflict. It became worse since 9/11.

You are not indifferent. I think you still have hope, that we can all come together again. That's why you and I are here. And RSN. We are all angry and disappointed but we all have hope.

Look at the Germans here. What do they know about Israel?! Media knowledge. So they look at Sharon as the evil and ignore terror. They are not frightened by pal. terror. They comdemn it by words but can they really imgaine what it means in reality? Occupation caused terror? That is the terrorists lie what they love to believe. Otherwise they would be so shocked about these people, that they would help Israel against terrorism.

But they don't do it because they don't understand the conflict.

The media does not report the facts. Every German has the duty to read more than newspapers. We have to know facts. That is our duty as Germans. That is the smallest thing we can do, people who are born after WW II.

So, stay here and tell us the truth. Germany needs time to understand the manipution by media.

[JR]

@Joe:
Absolutely on the spot!! Wonderful comment Joe. This blog needs people like you and even more importantly, we need to reach as many of those "can't believe my eyes" Germans with information and hard facts. I can't wait for the German site to start and I will send it to everybody I know.

@ can't believe my eyes: Du solltest öfter mal zum Lesen hierher kommen. Am Anfang wird es Dir schwerfallen, denn Du bist ja anders programmiert, aber mit nur durchschnittlicher Intelligenz wirst Du eines Tages sehen und verstehen. Dieser Blog wird bald auch in Deutsch erscheinen und ich möchte Dich auffordern, mitzumachen. Ich bin selbst Deutscher, meine Familie, meine Freunde alles Deutsche. So wie ich die Sache beurteile, können die Deutschen wirklich nicht verstehen, wie Amerika tickt. Du wirfst den Leuten hier vor, sie seien beschämt oder hätten keinen Humor. Das ist nicht der Fall, denn während sich die Amerikaner selbstbewußt auch mit Ihrem Präsidenten identifizieren, ist das ewige Bush bashing natürlich auch ein Angriff auf diese Menschen. Das ist nicht zu trennen. Hier bei uns identifiziert sich niemand wirklich mit Schröder, im Gegenteil, er wird auch verspottet....und dann wieder gewählt. Wir Deutschen haben es durch jahrelanges Training unserer "sozialen, multikulturellen Ader"
völlig verlernt, kritisch Stellung zu beziehen. Daher hat die "Pazifisten Presse" und die "laßt uns verhandeln Politik" hier leichteres Spiel als irgendwo anders in der Welt. Deutschland befindet sich im totalen "Vollwaschgang der Gehirnzellen". Ich wünsche Dir, das Du aufwachst und siehst was hier passiert. Dieser Blog kann dabei helfen.
JR

[Phil]

@ RSN,

'To hell with them. If in the future we will be enemies, well then, so be it. Bring on the war'

Great stuff. So we disagree on issues and you are hoping for a war. Forget Iran or North Korea, Europe is the real enemy.

[VIK]

....i looove this commercial!!!

it simply shows that the united states could spend 1 million dollars (a lot of jobs)in a good project and the russian had no other choice.
in these old days..i remember...every russian officer was happy to get an ordinary ink pen as friendly present.

why using a charcoal pencil when getting high technology stuff?

why using a pocket calculator when you can use the latest voice controlled computer?

why try to swim when you can use an airplane to cross the atlantic ocean ?

why sucking your thumb when you can suck..ouuuppps...i tell you later,okay?

the spacepen is still on the market and nobody can compare such a "rolls-royce of writing tools" with an ordinary pencil....and,don't let's talk about the price and benefits.

do i write "i looovee this commercial" ???..yes i do..! ;)

[Jay]

Vik, I guess you haven't read any of the posts here?

Phil, I disagree - Europe isn't nearly as powerful an enemy as the press is.

Gabi - no comment, I just think I like you for some reason.

[Joe]

JR,

Well as I will not be posting on the German site because of my lack of ability to write in German, and you can see from time to time I also suffer this shortcoming with English, you are more than welcome to take any of my comments which you think hit the target and post them there in German.

I hope the German site will have as many varied viewpoints and discussion issues as this one has.

[napoliguy]

@joe
nobody in europe needs help from the usa! we will celebrate when the last poopy american soldier has left european soil! thats what I say as italian!

[Joe]

Then we are in agreement....napoliguy...

Hopefully you will do all that you can to influnce this withdrawal...

[I can't beliveve my eyes]

@Joe:

I read your comment and I deeply respect what you wrote. We still have different positions but I got your point. I as a German am grateful to your nation for sending the Nazis to hell, bringing democracy to Germany and protecting our borders during the cold war. No doubt. The only thing I wanted to explain is that I (and everyone I personally know) feel not the least hostility against you as an American. I only speak out what in my opinion (may it be right or wrong) is the wrong way. What would be the profit for America if we would follow your government though we think that what they do is leading into war and misery? I have to make my opinion public because otherwise I would have a bad conscience. I appreciated your arguments but your last sentences irritated me. What have I said to make you threaten me and my country with war?

[RSN]

Napoliguy, I agree. All US forces out of Europe, and end NATO. That way America has more freedom to act unilaterally. And it can then act AGAINST Europe, if need be.

And, yes Phil, I do view Europe as a greater threat than Iran and North Korea. Why? Because the former distorts truth in a more insidious way than the latter two countries (whose statements are an act of desperation).

Let us keep in mind that it was the European view of America that shaped the thinking of all those young European-educated jihadists in Afghanistan in the nineties.

Just examine their speeches and statements. Almost all of their anti-American criticisms are derived from academia and media in Europe.

[Joe]

Phil,

There are few points you missed in the above posts or you chose to ignore them. The effects are the same.

The first is germany is the one who has determined the US to be the greatest threat to world peace followed by Israel. This is what the majority of germans today believe. It should be comforting to you to know this opinion is shared by the dictators and tryants of the world too.

The second point is germans are no longer allies of the US. While we might share certain aspects of being democratic nations with overlapping interests in areas such as trade and terrorism we are past the point of being allies. They could at some point chose to work with the US but I doubt they will if there is a cost which involves the expenditure of german treasure. By germany’s actions or lack of action, both, which produce the same results; they have chosen to support the tyrants over the democracies.

Thirdly at some point in the future if we should become enemies so be it. Americans do not hope for that, even as it seems to be a growing attitude within germany that we are some how the enemies. german elites have radicalized the relationship, be it from the right or the left, be they in academia, the media or in politics. The current leadership in berlin is in power only because of its anti-Americism.

Final point. you do not understand germany history either. If you did then you would realize there was much disagreement in Europe over what you call “issues” prior to 1938. Those issues we fully acceptable to the majority of germans who went down the path laid out for them by their non-Jewish elites.

So your inflammatory comment about hoping for war is just that inflammatory. It is the germans that have forgotten about Iran and North Korea. Americans have not. germans like to talk a good game with comments about “root causes” but fail to identify the single most important “root cause” which is freedom. I suggest you start to read some of the Arab press. You will find there hidden articles by writers who firmly believe that poverty, education, standards of living, etc are not the main problem Arabs face or the “root cause” of radical Islam but it is the lack of freedom. There are many nations in the world where the people live in poverty but because they have a degree of freedom they do not produce terrorists.

When germans disagree on an issue that is one thing. When they actively work against the interests of the US then they are not an ally, they are not a friend, they move more and more toward the status of being an enemy. So yes as you said Europe might in fact become one of many enemies of the US. I would tell you that more than 30% of Americans feel that france is an enemy of the US today. As germans continue to support france and act as their poodle, then I am sure American opinions about germany will follow this same trend as it has toward the french.

So this is where german elites are taking their nation. I hope it is where they want to be going. To ally germany with Russia, China, Iran, and the PA and to actively support them against the other democracies is to once again on put germamy on the wrong side of history. Then again maybe this is the side of history germany wants to be on and has always been on.

So as mass graves are found, when citizens are gassed, when the oppressors are armed, when the enslaved call out for freedom, germany stands on the shifting sands of its moral high ground lecturing the world as she turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to reality. berlin sounds more and more like Pyengyang or Tehran each day.

[I can't believe my eyes]

@JR:
Das werde ich mit Sicherheit!

@David: Ich frage mich, warum Du eines meiner Postings gelöscht hast und ein anderes abfällig kommentiert aber eine Aussage wie die von RSN unkommentiert lässt. Ich habe nicht genügend Respekt vor diesem bemitleidenswerten Schwachkopf um ihm zu antworten aber Du solltest Dich von sowas distanzieren, oder ist das wirklich auch Deine Meinung? Wenn der Zweck Deiner Seite der wäre, Individuen wie RSN in ihrem Hass zu bestärken, fände ich das sehr erschreckend. Was wäre das finale Ziel? Die Vernichtung Deutschlands durch Amerika? Im Ernst?

[I can't believe my eyes]

@David: Ich meine nicht das letzte, sondern das vorletzte Posting von RSN.
Übrigens ist mein nick auf Dauer blöd. Ich schreibe ab jetzt als g-punkt.

[Chris]

@Joe

If you're refering to this European wide poll about which country was thought of the most danger for world peace, you're mistaken. In fact, in Germany the percentage of people who thought of the US as the greatest threat to world peace was among the lowest in Europe.

I believe, both Germany and the US are still members of the NATO and Germany honors the agreements made in this treaty. Otherwise we probably wouldn't have soldiers in Afghanistan.
The attack on Iraq was not covered by this treaty, therefore Germany had every right to decide, if it wanted to take part or not, without violating any treaties.

Nobody in Germany wants to have the US as our enemy. What would we win with that?