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That sort of Eurobabble really wearies me.

I'll grant that Europe's been "civilized" for a few centuries longer than the US, but that's not much. By serious standards, Europe and the US aren't that far apart in age.

If that means we should do what they tell us to, when do they plan on taking direction from China? China was civilized when Europeans were running around half-naked hitting each other with sticks. Hell, Greece was civilized long before the rest of Europe; maybe the Greeks should be getting the instructions from Beijing and passing them along to France, etc. And what about India? Weren't they one of the very earliest ones, too? Where do they fit in?

Of course, Egypt and Iraq (Mesopotamia, anyway) were civilized even before the Chinese, weren't they? And Persia wasn't far behind. So maybe THAT's why the EU is taking orders from Teheran: They're just obediently deferring to the older and wiser culture.

There is one sort of person that seems to always make lack of "maturity" in others an issue with which to berate others with. And that is an ungrateful adolescent.

His Excellency's suggestion is obscene. Their international dealing are provincial compared to the United States which not only has to deal with virtually every nation on earth, but finds itself dealing with disagreeing entities within nation states, transnational organizations to a much more intesive degree than anyone else, subgroups, NGO's, pressure groups, and so forth.

One occasionally hears comparisons between the US and the Roman Empire, but Europe really better deserves the comparison, given that Rome's fall is often attributed to the sort of decadence one sees in Europe today - the dislocation with real life of people worldwide, their worries, and need - not just their desire to impose european pet peeves about global warming and gender warfare.

>>Should there be a rule that transatlantic partners will, even in case of disagreement, not lobby against each other’s agenda in the Security Council? Could these be the rules of the road to a more mature transatlantic relationship?

Um, lemme think.

No. Next.

Ambassador Ischinger has a point, our objectives won't be met with interference from China, and to a lesser extent, Iran. Maybe we should remove sanctions against Iran, we don't like their leadership, but that's their internal problem. We don't want to be soft on nuclear proliferation, we can attack them if they get out of hand.

China is another story. We will win the War on Terrorism faster with China's help. We share many common interests with China, excepting democracy and human rights.

maturity = doing nothing.
maturity = over looking the obvious
maturity = refusing to adapt to new realities.
maturity = tolerating murder and genocide.

Thats OK I don't want to grow up and never did.
I will stay immature. I hope my country does too as well.

America is more results-oriented.

He does get it. He doesn't want to.

--I'll grant that Europe's been "civilized" for a few centuries longer than the US, but that's not much. By serious standards, Europe and the US aren't that far apart in age. ---

Civilized?

Have they killed more of their own in their own lands in the 20th century than we ever have, including the Indians?

Sandy P, who said civilization had anything to do with being peaceful? I was talking about relatively large-scale social/political organization, enough surplus production to support useless parasites on the government payroll, etc. None of that stuff is inconsistent with clobbering the Albigensians, invading your neighbors, colonialism, or whatever.

When I was 12, there was a boy much bigger and stronger than I was. When I was 20, I found myself much bigger and stronger than him. I also noticed that many younger boys would soon outgrow him. Get used to living in shadows, Europe.

When will Europe ever learn to fall in line and follow our adventures in preemptive war? Hey, the latest example has been a catastrophic success. Too bad Old Europe refused to join in on the fun.
-Condi

Exactly Condi.

It was naturally correct for Europe, that continent of cultured, nuanced and gentile intellectuals to stand aside, reject war and allow Saddam Hussein and other misunderstood dictators to continue spreading love and peace. And speaking of "catastrophic success" that UN has had a number of them in Rwanda, the Balkans and now in Sudan. Why can't the US wake up and follow Europe's mature lead!

---Ray D.

Condi.


old europe has decided to be on the wrong side of history once again. I do not find this at all surprising given the histories of france and Germany. Do you?

By the way Condi,

Can you point to another example in military history where 50 million people have been liberated from totalitarian dictatorships with losses of less than 2,000 troops? So was the Korean War a disaster? We lost around 50,000. Wasn't worth it to keep South Korea free? What about World War II? Mega-disaster, the USA lost 350,000 which is a tiny count when compared to other Allied powers like the USSR which lost millions. Wasn't worth getting rid of Hitler and Tojo? Big disaster? Gee Condi, it's too bad Roosevelt, Truman and Eisenhower didn't have you around back in the day.

---Ray D.

These are the words of a confused and desperate man, nothing more than that. How simplistically foolish his statements are. Let me destroy a few of this guys self-created facts-
Old Wolfgang says "First, the concept of transformation is not a patent owned by America."
Sure pal, who said it was? Thanks for sharing your brain's power with Us all. Think about the psyche behind his thoughts.... it is childish at best.

Old Wolfgang says further- "Americans often forget or ignore the fact that there is no region in the world which equals the countries of Central and Eastern Europe in their capacity, determination, and success in transforming themselves from repressed societies into free democracies"
Yeah sure old man- Who was the chief architect AND enforcer of said "transformation"? Whether it was the Lech Walesa's Polish Union or the Ukrainian transformation, the US influence and support blew europe's "support" out of the water- right on europe's doorstep. This guy shouldn't make up falsehoods regarding any "American remembrances". Hell, before the Iraq war the "euros" used to shout - "We know war, We do not like war!" Well now, no kidding huh? Then europe should quit pulling the US in to solve each of it's goddamn wars. 4+ wars in JUST this last 60 years, with two of them being in the last 10 years. I cannot think of a more foolish sentiment.

Old Man Wolfgang says- "More importantly, Europeans discovered the significance of working with the countries of the Middle East toward the goals of modernization, democracy, human rights , and the rule of law a long time ago - long before Washington got into that game."
Ok Wolfie- What the hell was it that you "discovered" in the middle east other than islamists who share Goebells visions? And tell us dear Wolfie- you claim you've "led the middle east in modernization"... Um, wow, the middle east project for Europe has to then be one of your biggest failures.

Old man says- "The European Commission alone has committed over 6.1 billion euros to the so-called Barcelona process, which began in 1995, and this work is continuing."
Great, so you write some checks to the middle east govts. Is there anything else you have done..any items to mention...and of these "successes" have specifics?

Old Wolfie says further- "Today, the European Union comprises 25 countries with 450 million people – a prosperous, free, and peaceful region about which Washington need not worry any more after having had to intervene in two World Wars in Europe in the 20th century"
I say "make that 4 wars, a-wipe". There were two in the last decade that diaper-clad europe had no ability to solve without the brutal and forward thinking US. Wasn't it just two damn weeks ago that the "eu" supposedly took over SFOR? That's a mere 14 days, this clown must be hitting his schnapps' bottle heavily whilst wearing his antlers.

Wolfie says- "But Americans should acknowledge Europe’s tremendous success story of the last several decades, culminating in the European Constitution currently under discussion in Europe."
Let me get this straight- the US should be proud of something that the "eu" has UNDER DISCUSSION?
again, this clown omits kosovo and Sarajevo and seems to be proud of his capacity to "speak".
That is not impressive to anyone in the US. Words alone are just that. Words that are spoken of in relation to a deliverable action that are not followed through on border on simple horse szhit, similar to what old Wolfie is spewing here.

Here's a rule gem from Wolfie- "Europeans do not aspire to a leadership role themselves, but want to see a clear demonstration of the willingness of the United States to commit itself totally to this task."
Is this guy for real? I mean a real ambassador? For szhits sake I am amazed at such drivel. Boy wonder Clinton spent 8 years trying to wank arafat, and all it got the US was a multitude of dead citizens. I implore Wolfie to get off his ass, close his mouth, and not open it until HE and germany have a realistic "plan"... ANY kind of a plan.

he further states "Another example in which Europe has an agenda and a policy and wants America to come along is Iran"
Really Wolfie? You geniuses traipsed into these nuke talks with Iran on your own, puffing your chests like some type of a diplomatic erection, claiming you would show the world "your softly, softly policy" yet what have you accomplished after 13 long months? Nothing Wolfagan, you have accomplished NOTHING. I mean- what the hell is "softly softly"? some type of damn fabric or stool softener? Now this is your subtle way of trying to get the US to use her men and woman to carry a stick to make the mullahs agree with you. You sound like an impotent coward Mr Ischinger.

more from Wolfie- "Twenty-five years after the hostage crisis, Europeans believe it is time for the United States to begin moving beyond a policy of sanctions, and nothing else, on Iran. We are waiting, impatiently."
Waiting "impatiently"? So you are demanding the US start to sell things to Iranian mullahs who stone girls? Hey Wolfie- F You imbecile.

I can tell you that if this guy Wolfie Ischinger wrote this piece and was not flat off his arse drunk on Christmas egg nog, then relations between the US and germany are finished, forever. No one here in the US would fall for such horse szhit. How hypocritical, foolsih and full of self-flattering nonsense this man's mind is. And we all need to agree that he wrote all this crap with schroeder at his side wearing the same pair of antlers.

@Pato

Remember these are people who worship Bader-Meinhof as heros. I think that they also would try to pass off the iron curtian as the fault of the US not their brotherly socialist Soviet Republic if they could.

Apperentlty "Death to America" does not translate from Farsi to German. No matter what the US does the Iranians will find a way to make excuses to not deal honestly.

There is no way to deal with this man as far as I can tell. He is living in a fairy tale land. He has an alternate history and cockeyed world view.

To further the point of a true long-term split between germany and the US which has occured- check out this Atlantic-Times cover bi-line
"Let the Dollar Fall"
"The weak dollar is hurting European exports – but there are reasons not to interfere. Typical Americans! After years of living the high life, they now they want Europeans to pay the bill."
This and other stories in our print edition.

So "Europeans paying the bill", and paying the bills for the US huh??
This is simply insanity in it's most recognized form. This website, which is free to those in the US and comes complete with a full force marketing drive and advertisements by EDS, SAP,DIN, and others resembles a children's nursery ryhme compilation, designed by euro 14 yr old interns in berlin. All should visit the site for a good laugh at this export-driven diplomatic hack shop-
http://www.atlantic-times.com/
Medienkritik was THE pioneer of the discovery and un-masking of the german media hypocrisy, perfidy and attemtps to re-write history over the last several years. Medienkritik w/ David and Ray at the healm can accomplish in an afternoon what guys like Wolfie Ischinger haven't even accomplished in a life-time.
One must assume his view is close to universal within germany as he is the ambassador. Germany, without the slightest doubt you seem to be in for a world of hurt in a short time frame.


Pato wrote
>> can tell you that if this guy Wolfie Ischinger wrote this piece and was not flat off his arse drunk on Christmas egg nog, then relations between the US and germany are finished, forever. No one here in the US would fall for such horse szhit. How hypocritical, foolsih and full of self-flattering nonsense this man's mind is. And we all need to agree that he wrote all this crap with schroeder at his side wearing the same pair of antlers.


Thanks, that is one of the funniest postings I have ever read. Good job!

Old Man Wolfgang says- "More importantly, Europeans discovered the significance of working with the countries of the Middle East toward the goals of modernization, democracy, human rights , and the rule of law a long time ago - long before Washington got into that game."

And what was the first Middle Eastern Democracy that Europeans helped to get on its feet during this long period of time? [crickets]

Pato - I took a look at that "Newspaper" - as they call themselves in an obvious attempt for a monthly magazine to ride the coat-tails of The Economist.
Their front page item about "pauvre Europe! wah! sniff!" is rather ridiculous.
It really doesn't look like anyone from North America is really involved in it, and it really doesn't look like it's worth E135 for 12 issues. It's resembles a rather subtle form of EU business propaganda, like the DW car shows in english. Unlike "top gear", they only speak either glowingly, or semi-glowingly about German autos.

Blech.

I'll stick to The Washington Times - $0.25 at the newspaper box! (I'm sure I'll have to listen to some troll beat the dead horse about the Moonies again...)

I think we need to be patient with our European cousins. Neither France, nor Germany, nor Italy has existed in its present form for more than 50 years. Our own form of government has been in place for more than 200 years. They don't have our long history of foreign policy successes; they don't have our global point-of-view; they don't have our long-term perspective and history is an embarrassment to them.

So I think we need to have a little patience and cut them a certain amount of slack for their youthful inexperience. Of course our patience won't and shouldn't last forever.

By the way who is it who keeps the seaways free and protects the flow of oil from the Gulf that keeps their economies working?

Does a country (=Germany)where most of the weekly press, from the TV mags to the news mags, offers nothing than boobs and bums on their covers week after week, qualify to teach others, be they West Samoans, Americans or whatever, what civilisation is?

"Twenty-five years after the hostage crisis, Europeans believe it is time for the United States to begin moving beyond a policy of sanctions, and nothing else, on Iran."

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

About the German identical crisis is here an excellent article by Richard Herzinger on Weltwoche:

"Irritationen bei Freunden, Verbündeten und potenziellen Partnern werden derzeit auf beiden Seiten des deutschen politischen Spektrums in Kauf genommen. Denn der deutsche Blick in die Welt wird in erster Linie von einer heimischen Obsession bestimmt: der Suche nach der eigenen nationalen und kulturellen Identität."


http://www.weltwoche.ch/artikel/?AssetID=9555&CategoryID=66

Thanks Downer for the link. Great article.

The thing is that there is a huge gap between what the German(and EU) politicians claim and what reality looks like. They created a veritable reality vacuum, a black hole. The problem is that this black hole has to be filled by someone or something. That's the nature of this world. And whose job is this? The hated Americans have to do it. Again.

Meanwhile, the Europeans sit on the fence, admire their manicure and ridicule the Americans who wrestle in mud on the field with the bad guys. Those are the bad guys who would literally love to get their hands on the Europeans and take care of their manicure with a pair of pliers.

Herzinger is right in his article. The problems would be best solved if the West worked together. The fact is that there won't be any visionary EU politician coming up anytime soon. What is needed is someone who will recognize the necessity of working together with the US, and who will also recognize the futility of trying to build a EU, which is an adversary to the US instead of being a mature partner (and maybe friend again, sometime...).

No such EU politician exists and the environment for creating someone like this simply doesn't exist. Americans will have to do the job almost by themselves. Again. All kinds of different realistical scenarios can be imagined, but in none of them does the EU play a truly beneficial role. That's the sad reality. The interesting times have just begun.

Others have refuted Herr Ischinger quite well, and I will not attempt to improve on their efforts. A separate question occurs to me. Are Europeans in general and Germans in particular aware that we find their sheltered responses immature? They are aware that we disagree. They are aware that we find them inactive and indecisive, though they contest that. We Americans are aware that many Europeans consider our approach juvenile -- heck, some Americans even agree with them on that point. Are they in turn even aware that we have a similar complaint?

I ask because I never see that point specifically refuted by European commenters. Come to think of it, I never see any of our actual positions addressed, let alone refuted. Do Europeans even know what our claims are, or are they content to let others put words in our mouths?

Sigh.

@ Assistant:

You write: "I ask because I never see that point specifically refuted by European commenters. Come to think of it, I never see any of our actual positions addressed, let alone refuted. Do Europeans even know what our claims are, or are they content to let others put words in our mouths?"

I think you have touched on a key issue here. This is a fundamental part of the problem.

The conservative American, Republican, Bush position is never actually presented to Germans in more than tidbits normally selected to make the above-mentioned folks look as bad as possible.

It is one thing to have an informed debate, hear out both sides, and then decide you don't like something or someone. It is another to decide you don't like something you really have no informed idea about. That is what I fear is happening to a large extent in Germany, because wide segments of the German media are failing in their duty to properly and FULLY inform the people on those running the United States.

---Ray D.

@Ray:
The conservative American, Republican, Bush position is never actually presented to Germans in more than tidbits normally selected to make the above-mentioned folks look as bad as possible.

I agree with you! This is the key and a big problem.

"Belege einer Ernüchterung

"The Guardian" kämpft seit Jahren gegen den Ruf, anti-israelische Berichterstattung zu betreiben

VON HENNING HOFF
...
Auf die fortgesetzten Vorwürfe reagierte der Guardian zuletzt auf eigene Weise und beauftragte die Journalistin Daphna Baram, das Verhältnis der Zeitung zu Israel zu untersuchen. Herausgekommen ist dabei ein ungewöhnliches und aufschlussreiches Innenportrait der Zeitung (Daphna Baram, Disenchantment: The Guardian and Israel, London/GuardianBooks 2004, £ 17.99), das vor allem zweierlei deutlich macht: Der Guardian ist, trotz gelegentlicher Verirrungen, weder antisemitisch noch anti-israelisch. Dennoch bringt sie das Verhältnis zu Israel in ihrem Titel auf den Punkt: "Ernüchterung" oder "Entzauberung" ist zu beobachten."


http://www.fr-aktuell.de/ressorts/kultur_und_medien/medien/?cnt=605264&sid=6c76306aee9852110ee8db98c633ef61


Einige Tage alter Artikel. Da kommt Erleichterung auf unter den Journalisten: Nicht antisemitisch und nicht antiisraelisch, nur einzelne Verirrungen. Bei einem anderen Ergebnis müßten nämlich die meisten linksliberalen Medien ebenfalls mal eine Untersuchung starten. Nicht wahr???

@pato, Joe N.

Did you try reading the front page of the Atlantic Times? It's available to non-subscribers as a PDF:

Front Page of Atlantic Times

It has the full article on "Let the Dollar Fall". It is a fairly well balanced piece that focusses on the European dependence upon the US economic engine.

Cleary much of the problem that Europeans and Americans have in understanding each other stems from the complete failure of the Euro media to report the rationale's and viewpoints of the Conservative majority in the US

All they do is print "Bush is a buffoon" over and over - so how can we expect the Euro's not to be confused at how 51% of us could vote for him

The UN is currently

The UN security council should be reformed. The EU should get one vote. The US should get one vote, Russia, Japan, China and India should each get one vote, so major nations don't get drawn into conflicts on opposite sides of the security council, but rather would use the veto.

If Germany, the UK, and France each get a vote, then California, New York, Texas, and Florida each get votes too.

Other temporary memberships should depend on having an elected and effective legislature with impeachment power. No Syria, No Zimbabwe, no Libya, no Egypt.

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