« We Need More Interviews Like This | Main | The Tsunami Disaster: Helping the Victims »

Comments

@ Pato

I think your post says more about you than about us. No offense.

@ Pato

Your black-and-white-view of the world is truly disturbing.

Some 50,000 people just died and the only thing you people worry about is some German less-than-10-percent party and some German less-than-1-percent TV station? That's pathetic. What's even more pathetic is Foobarista's attempt to abuse this disaster for UN bashing.

@ Ray D.

-- But you don't see the extreme sorts of poll numbers in the USA that you see in Germany, for example Bush having a 4% approval rating or 31% of all young people under 30 thinking the US government was behind September 11. --

Bush's approval rating isn't much higher in most other countries. Personally, I don't see how anyone can approve his policies - and I've voted for conservative parties most of the times.

And about these conspiracy-theories... Didn't you notice how the media (including Der Spiegel, Panorama...) have denounced them? Wherever those numbers come from, they definitely don't result from the coverage of our mainstream media.

The US public overall, uses it's own minds to form opinions, not that of the state, not that of the media. The new york times is in it's death throes now as it's veiwership has crumbled. People now read the NYT simply to laugh.
The reasons for the descrepancy in numbers in relation to the %75 in the US supported the war is that by and large the US people knew what was at stake and new what UN resolutions were dis-regarded by hussein. Lets now forget that it was the US with britain who kept troops nearby to monitor saddam the freak for 10 yrs, and it was US and the brits whose planes were shot at daily. So that explains the %75 who were in favor.
The poll also is in answer to the question "was it worth it to invade iraq?"
the poll numbers you see now reflect developing American opinion of- "If the iraqis cannot defend themselves, and cannot stand up to foreign jihaidis and ex-baathists cowards- what good then can the US possibly be? Though the US owes it to the sunnis to stay and assist, and the US people know that well. ..AND the recent polling also reflects people in the US watching the international media play up the loss of US lives with glee, and the people are now saying "to hell with all of you".
it's that simple.

-- The US public overall, uses it's own minds to form opinions, not that of the state, not that of the media. --

You must be kidding. Where do you get your information from, if not from the media? Are you God who knows everything by nature?

@tom
the only thing truly black and white in this world are the intentions of the jihadist cowards, both in the "eu" and the middle east.
We hear their words and desires daily.
It is indeed, very clear.

@ Pato

I bet it is. You sound exactly like them.

Markus:
"as in some American states (California, I think) genetic researches have been started"

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Genetic research is done virtually anywhere in the world. Germany is one of the leading nations when it comes to the life sciences (after the US and the UK of course) and - as far as I can see - the greens are not undermining this effort.

@tom
you ask "where do I get my info from if not from the media?"
media can be had in many thousands of different forms and conduits. it is not a sole entity within itself. In fact, you are currently watching the old school/old guard maninstream media eat itself alive the world over.
I find your posts and comments to be good reading, and I am appreciative of your thoughts. If you could offer a few more specifics in relation to your perspectives regarding Bush, the US policies or it's people, we can (with our knowledge of man, history and geo-politics) come to a discussion and perhaps an understanding of things right here on this blog without the aid of what you call "the media".

Tom - some interesting comments - I'd like to understand a little better how you come to your opinions

But what is the reason for this descrepency? Wasn't this overwhelming support by the American public a result from massive government propaganda?

-----Not as I recall. The gov't certainly made its case - but the media was playing against it all the way -----


From an American media that didn't fulfill its role as a watchdog and missed to inform the public about the true backgrounds of this conflicts?

----what is the true background you refer to?----

The New York Times and the Washington Post later apologized for not being critical enough during that period of time.

----both of these papers were quite critical. They are now back firmly in "anti-war" camp and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight they are apologizing for not being more skeptical of the reports of Saddam possible WMD stockpiles, now that we know these were not there

Had we found much much more WMD - I doubt the Times would apologize for being skeptical in its reporting - rather they would be running exposes of the incompetence of the Bush admin that underestimated the enemy -------

I guess the approval-numbers would have been much lower if they had been more critical.

----yet they were quite critical before - and have been 100% critical for many many months now ----

Right now, the approval-rating for this war dropped to an all-time low and I don't see it going up anytime soon.

----nor do I see the Mainstream media starting to report on the good news from Iraq anytime soon the elections in Afghanistan were hardly mentioned after all -----

Personally, I've always believed in military solutions when necessary (Afghanistan, Kosovo, the first Gulf War...), but I still don't find any good reasons to defend this one.

---Why was Kosovo necessary?----

The Left has long desired to drive a wedge between the average German and the average American, who after all are largely Germans. I'd say they've succeeded beyond their dreams. It's easy to make strangers hate each other by projecting their self-loathing onto each other. Humans deserve war.

@Pogue Mahone

Thanx for your thoughts. I'm a bit in hurry right now, so I have to give you a short answer.

-- but the media was playing against it all the way --

I don't know if you can speak of "the media". There are certainly huge differences in the coverage of the NYT and the WT, CNN or the FNC.

-- nor do I see the Mainstream media starting to report on the good news from Iraq --

What good news exactly? I know that there are some good news. But you must admit that the overall situation doesn't look too good. Maybe I'm too negative, but I don't see how this is supposed to change in the near future.


---Why was Kosovo necessary?----

To prevent a humanitarian desaster.


@ Tom:

You write:

"Personally, I've always believed in military solutions when necessary (Afghanistan, Kosovo, the first Gulf War...), but I still don't find any good reasons to defend this one (Iraq)."

First off, here are 300,000 good reasons to defend the Iraq war.

The other reason that Germans should have learned by now is that you don't coddle violent, genocidal dictators and wait for them to get into a position where they can murder millions. Sticking your head in the sand and allowing people like Saddam to walk all over the international law that you people claim to love and respect so much is not going to make the world a safer place.

You further write:

"And about these conspiracy-theories... Didn't you notice how the media (including Der Spiegel, Panorama...) have denounced them? Wherever those numbers come from, they definitely don't result from the coverage of our mainstream media."

I never claimed the numbers were the sole result of media coverage. But I would really like to know Tom, where do all of these people who believe the wacky conspiracy theories get their ideas from? Please explain that one to all of us. I think SPIEGEL and Panorama finally decided to denounce them, because they were afraid of the entire country decending into lunacy and being embarrassed internationally.

You also write:

"Wasn't this overwhelming support by the American public a result from massive government propaganda? From an American media that didn't fulfill its role as a watchdog and missed to inform the public about the true backgrounds of this conflicts?"

What were the "true backgrounds" Tom? Bush lied and people died? Blood for oil?

No one here will argue that there wasn't a major problem with pre-war intelligence. In fact, the German intelligence service also falsely believed that Saddam had WMDs until very recently. Were they lying or just poorly informed? It is when the hard left starts to argue that Bush manipulated and lied to seize Iraq's oil that they start to lose credibility.

The fact is that it was right to enforce international law (after it had been violated for 12 years in 17 resolutions) and overthrow a mass murderer even if the majority of the nations in the UN were against it. The main reason that most of the nations in the UN were against US military action is the same reason that most nations in the UN vote on resolution after resolution to condemn Israel while turning a blind eye to Muslim atrocities.

Your most ridiculous claim is that the US media fell victim to "massive government propaganda." The fact is that the US media had the same information on WMDs that everyone else did. The US has the most diverse and free media in the world. The existence of the blogosphere is only one small indicator of that fact.

Making the sort of claim, that the US media is in lockstep with the government, is frankly absurd. During the recent election, the mainstream media in the US was remarkably negative and hostile in its coverage of Bush and his administration. I would like to see your evidence that the US media was influenced by "massive government propaganda."

Tom, it seems to me that you've bought into the pervasive "groupthink" that dominates Germany. Maybe if you actually knew a little something about Bush other than what you are spoon-fed by the German media on a daily basis, you wouldn't have such a warped view of the world.

---Ray D.

"both of these papers were quite critical. They are now back firmly in "anti-war" camp and, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight they are apologizing for not being more skeptical of the reports of Saddam possible WMD stockpiles, now that we know these were not there" (Poque Mahone)

I love these weekly polls re whether or not it was a good thing to go into Iraq. An anti-war co-worker looked at me with a s**t eating grin the other day and asked me, "SO Caroline - still think it was a good idea to go into Iraq?"

I said Ask me in 5 years. If 20/20 hindsight is to pass for wisdom in this regard, then who is to limit the time frame used for making the judgement? It is simply absurd to run public opinion polls literally every single week while we're at war. Obviously we couldn't possibly have prevailed in WW II this way.

Tom,
@Pogue Mahone

Thanx for your thoughts. I'm a bit in hurry right now, so I have to give you a short answer.

-- but the media was playing against it all the way --

I don't know if you can speak of "the media". There are certainly huge differences in the coverage of the NYT and the WT, CNN or the FNC.

#Speaking here of the Mainstream Media - the dominent media in the USA NYT, CNN, all the television networks (except FOX )#

-- nor do I see the Mainstream media starting to report on the good news from Iraq --

What good news exactly? I know that there are some good news. But you must admit that the overall situation doesn't look too good. Maybe I'm too negative, but I don't see how this is supposed to change in the near future.


#isn't this very telling though. The lack of good news from Iraq is so evident to you that you can only assume there must be some good news from Iraq

Think about that for a moment

Everyone agree's that Saddam was a murderous bastard - he did slaughter hundreds of thousands - he most likely would have done so again - who or where or when in unknown

So getting rid of him must be a good thing

If an asteroid had landed on Saddam - I am sure all would agree it was a good thing after all

But since it was the US leading a military effort to do it - virtually the entire focus of the Euro media has been on what has gone wrong

If 10,000 schools are opened - you don't know it

But if 100 people are blown up by "la resistance" - its front page news

Maybe you can ask the editors of your local paper if they can report any progress in Iraq?#


---Why was Kosovo necessary?----

To prevent a humanitarian desaster.

#So why aren't starving Iraqi's a humanitarian disaster? Why aren't Iraqis starved of medical help a disaster? Why aren't the marsh arabs rooted from their land a disaster?

Or are only Europeans legitimate victims deserving of help?#


The Greens also think Kosovo was OK but that Iraq wasn't. Just a reminder that Kosovo was also done without UN approval. As I wrote above...some genocide victims are more equal than others.

---Ray D.

I am just astounded when I see commenters claim that the German press is not anti-American, or that most Germans supported the U.S. action in Afghanistan. You evidently don't read much. I recall articles in SPIEGEL and Stern that left no stone unturned in their effort to demonize the U.S. action in Afghanistan. I talked to many German academics during the war in Afghanistan who complained bitterly to me that the U.S. was attacking the Taleban without furnishing proof to them that Osama bin Laden was behind 9/11. (They weren't talking to me anymore a minute later.) The German press can and does take the most inane story about America and twist it to make Americans look like warmongers, racists or idiots.

Don't get me wrong. If you take away their completely distorted view of America, most Germans I know are really decent people with whom I get along quite well (as long as I refrain from telling them how screwed up their view of America is). But their need to detest America has grown over the years I have been here, from latent anti-Americanism to pathological hatred in many cases. The source of that change is the Leftist German press, aided unfortunately, by Leftists from America itself.

It is good to have a blog like this one that can inform Americans about what is going on with the German press here, but it is not going to change anything. Germans seem to have a deep psychological need to believe bad things about America.

"As I wrote above...some genocide victims are more equal than others."

I will admit my ignorance re the whole Balkans conflict as it seemed extremely extremely complex but wasn't Kosovo primarily about caucasian Christian Serbs slaughtering muslims? Were those Muslims caucasian or "brown"? (the Albanians - not sure here). As ridiculous as it seems, I think the reason the left supported the Balkans intervention while they opposed the Iraq intervention - is because white Christians were the perpetrators in the first instance while brown-skinned muslims (saddam and his gang) were the perpetrator in the second, and as far as I can tell brown-skinned perpetrators get a free pass from the left while white Christians perpetrators most certainly do not. Of course I am open to an alternative explanation.

@Caroline

You pretty much have it figured out. The U.S. action against Serbia, which was not approved (I refuse to use the word authorized) by the UN and was basically an air campaign against Serbian civilian infrastructure (imagine if we had taken that approach in Iraq), was tolerated by the Euro-left because the Serbs were politically incorrect. After all, they were screwing up the illusion of a peaceful, civilized Europe. On the other hand, Saddam was a brutal Jew-hating Nazi dictator with a mustache; what should the Germans have against him?

Yeah, that was polemic and unfair, but the German press wouldn't have any problem using an argument like that to attack America, and especially George Bush. If fact, most of the anti-American arguments used by the German press and "intelligent and nuanced" German academics are of a similar nature.

From what I have come to understand way after the fact, the Serbs had been ruthlessly persecuted at Muslim hands historically speaking - i.e. they understood quite well the ramifications of Dhimmitude - which presumably Europe is soon to discover. Worse, my vague understanding is that al-Queda has now infiltrated the Muslim population that we rescued from the Serb's cruel hands. Let me reiterate again - I am woefully ignorant here. Few things in recent history strike me as more complex than the whole Balkans history and conflict. So pardon for asking - but did we actually bomb a people who were trying to free themselves from dhimmitude? This is not an irrelevant question as much of Europe may soon be facing the same fate - in fact I picture Europe on the whole being Balkanized in the next century and I picture the dynamics of the Balkan conflict writ large across the European landscape. Again - I claim no real knowledge of these matters and welcome any instruction.

"because the Serbs were politically incorrect." (Beimami)

If there's one thing I think both Europeans and Americans should come to agree upon - it is that our current problems are way too serious to bow down to political correctness. Political correctness must go - that I am sure of. I mean here the free expression of opinions and ideas, no matter how offensive. If blunt talk can save lives in the long run it is well worth the cost. it is merely blunt talk after all...

Does anybody think that a conservative politician in the United States or Germany or anywhere else in the world who sexually abused children and admited it in his own book could ever become the leader of a political party in a parliament.
I don't think so, but things are different if your nickname is Red Danny, if your best friend is Joschka Fischer and if the media is on your side.
Daniel Cohn Bendit did just that, he wrote it in his 1975 book "Der grosse Basar" chapter " Little Big Men" He wrote about the days when he worked in a Frankfurt Kindergarten in the early 70s. In this chapter he describes in detail the sexuall relationship he had with 2-5 year old children.

From his book :

«Ich hatte schon lange Lust gehabt, in einem Kindergarten zu arbeiten. Die deutsche Studentenbewe- gung hat ihre eigenen antiautoritären Kindergärten hervorgebracht, die von den Stadtverwaltungen mehr oder weniger unterstützt wurden. Ich habe mich dann 1972 beim Kindergarten der Frankfurter Universität beworben, der in Selbstverwaltung der Eltern ist und vom Studentenwerk und der Stadt unterstützt wird. (...)

Die Eltern haben mich als Bezugsperson akzeptiert. Ich habe in diesem Kindergarten zwei Jahrelang gearbeitet. Dort waren Kinder zwischen zwei und fünf Jahren - eine fantastische Erfahrung. Wenn wir ein bisschen offen sind, können uns die Kinder sehr helfen, unsere eigenen Reaktionen zu verstehen. Sie haben eine grosse Fähigkeit zu erfassen, was bei den Grossen vor sich geht. (...)

Mein ständiger Flirt mit allen Kindern nahm bald erotische Züge an. Ich konnte richtig fühlen, wie die kleinen Mädchen von fünf Jahren schon gelernt hatten, mich anzumachen. Es ist kaum zu glauben. Meist war ich ziemlich entwaffnet. (...)

Es ist mir mehrmals passiert, dass einige Kinder meinen Hosenlatz geöffnet und angefangen haben, mich zu streicheln. Ich habe je nach den Umständen unterschiedlich reagiert, aber ihr Wunsch stellte mich vor Probleme. Ich habe sie gefragt: "Warum spielt ihr nicht untereinander, warum habt ihr mich ausgewählt und nicht andere Kinder?" Aber wenn sie darauf bestanden, habe ich sie dennoch gestreichelt.»

Link:

http://www.schweizerzeit.ch/0501/kinder.htm

--------------------------------------------

This of course has never been an issue in the German Media, where Red Danny like all his more of less radical Green Party friends are portrayed as the gate-keepers of societal morality .

"In this chapter he describes in detail the sexual relationship he had with 2-5 year old children." (Christian)

Why is this surprising? Peodophilia is the next frontier for the left-left to champion. I presume that - and polygamy... How else to accomodate Muhammed and his most devoted followers? Morality must be thoroughly relativized to accomplish that feat..

Die Welt ist ja so krank, so krank ist die Welt...Wenn kein Gegener mehr da ist sucht man sich eben einen.

"Die Welt ist ja so krank, so krank ist die Welt" (grins)

OK - just for fun - a shot in the dark from someone who speaks Zero german ( although we do have a common Anglo-Saxon heritage!):

"The left is just so cranky (crazy) - so cranky (crazy) is the left?

Ah - the beauty (and fun!) of transatlantic dialogue. Perhaps I now understand how miscommunication happens? :)

It is becoming time to choose sides. Choose carefully, because tomorrow may be too late. Germans know how the United States treats people. Are they ready for how the Caliphate will treat them?

@ Tom:

You wrote:

Addition: According to a poll mentioned by "Die Welt", 64% of the German public supported the war against Afghanistan.

That is a highly misleading statistic because the poll you refer to was taken immediately after September 11 (I believe on October 10, 2001) and before the Afghanistan war began and changed very rapidly over the course of literally just a couple weeks. When things got serious and the war actually began, Germans immediately began to withdraw solidarity from the US and support for the Afghanistan war sank dramatically.

Here is an October 24, 2001 article (just two weeks after the poll you refer to was taken) from Der Spiegel with polling data on Afghanistan:

Mehrheit in Deutschland für Feuerpause

Hamburg - Mehr als zwei Drittel der Deutschen fordern nach einer Forsa-Umfrage eine Feuerpause in Afghanistan. Wie das Meinungsforschungsinstitut für die Zeitung "Die Woche" ermittelte, unterstützen 69 Prozent der Befragten die Forderung von Grünen und Hilfsorganisationen, die Angriffe gegen das Taliban-Regime und die Terrorgruppe von Osama Bin Laden zu unterbrechen, um Flüchtlinge und Hungernde zu versorgen. 60 Prozent sind dagegen, dass sich deutsche Soldaten an einem Bodenkrieg in Afghanistan beteiligen.

55 Prozent treten der repräsentativen Umfrage zufolge für einen eigenständigen Kurs der Bundesregierung gegenüber den USA im Kampf gegen den Terror ein. Nur 41 Prozent teilen die Meinung von Bundeskanzler Gerhard Schröder (SPD), Deutschland müsse uneingeschränkt solidarisch mit den USA sein.

Die Forderung nach einer Feuerpause in Afghanistan wird nach der Forsa-Umfrage nicht nur von Anhängern der Grünen und der PDS, sondern auch von denen der SPD, der CDU/CSU und der FDP mehrheitlich unterstützt. Einen Einsatz deutscher Soldaten im Bodenkrieg in Afghanistan lehnt ebenfalls die Mehrheit der Anhänger aller Parteien ab. Einen eigenständigeren Kurs der Bundesregierung verlangen vor allem die Anhänger von PDS und Grünen, aber auch die Mehrheit der SPD- und der FDP-Wähler. Nur die Unionsanhänger sind mehrheitlich (59 Prozent) für uneingeschränkte Solidarität mit den USA.

Summary: On October 24, 2001, 60% of all Germans questioned were against involving German troops in a ground war, 55% demanded a course independent of the USA for the German government in the war on terror and only 41% agreed that Chancellor Schroeder should give total solidarity to the US.

More recent polls have also reflected and confirmed these numbers and underline that the numbers that Tom mentioned (taken before the Afghan war) were an anomaly born of the shock immediately following September 11. For example, an Emnid poll from 2003 showed that 60% of Germans were against expanding the German mission in Afghanistan and an Emnid poll from October of this year showed that 59% of Germans completely rejected the German military involvement in Afghanistan.

In other words, most Germans have not supported military action in Afghanistan since at least October 24, 2001. This is especially true of SPD and Green voters. You are on thin ice factually if you seek to claim otherwise Tom.

---Ray D.

Someone mentioned that German anti-Bush sentiment originated in the first year or two of his 2001 - 2005 adminstration as he was not seen to be legitimately elected in 2000 at a mere 49.5% of the popular votes. Does anyone in Germany know the percentage of the popular vote Bill Clinton received in 1992? It was roughly 42%. That means that 58% of the American electorate voted against him in 1992. Bush is a hell of lot more legitimate than Clinton was by that standard. Idiots.

As for German cultural accomplishments in the last 50 years, haven't they been very successful in developing chemical warfare and secretly selling it to 3rd world countries? Especially to enemies of Israel? Correct me if I'm wrong. (I'm thinking of a 60 Minutes report on this subject a few years ago.) Is there even a German film industry? I've seen lots of Swedish, French, Italian and British films over the decades, but, alas, no German films. Any great literature coming out of Germany in the last 50 years? I haven't heard of any. Any great musicians or singers, pop or classical? I've heard of none.

Here more than 10 years after the reunification of Germany, the east continues to be economically far behind the west. German birth rate is too low to provide future population to support the extensive life long welfare of it's aging population. They take 6 week holidays and work only 35 hours a week. The US will soon pull it's military out of Germany (everyone seems to have forgotten the announcement earlier this year)and NATO is not long for this world. It will be history in another decade.

Germans would do much better to tend to their own looming political and economic calamities instead of wasting their shriveling national energies on criticizing American foreign policies and the conduct of the GWoT. The average American cares little what Germans or any Europeans think or do and that is evidenced by the paucity in our MSM news of European concerns. Our country will see to solving our own problems and are more than happy to let you do the same. If you don't like us, fine, we'll manage in spite of your ill will which is mostly a lot of German media noise.

Oh come on I don't like Clinton, but Perot took 16 % of the votes in 1992 and Clinton had more votes than Bush I, thus Clinton won the popular vote, because he had more votes than any of the other candidates.

@caroline
So what in your opinion DOES account for the pervasive anti-American press bias in Germany?

it is just we dont like you and you dont like us, we dont need you and you dont need us! So live with it! why do you care at all? i dont!
and for the "american power" if I see what is going on in iraq, then that power cant be that big!
you can not even handle with a few hundred insurgents! maybe you should ask the mexicans for help............um wait most us-soldiers are already from those latin american countries hired as "Kanonenfutter"!

@ life scientist

Sorry, I don't know the German word for "Stammzellenforschung", which was and still is discussed in Germany, while Schwarzenegger just invested 3 billions into that research.
But you can generally say that the Greens are usually against new technology (gen-food for example). That was my point.

"it is just we dont like you and you dont like us, we dont need you and you dont need us! So live with it! why do you care at all? i dont!
and for the "american power" if I see what is going on in iraq, then that power cant be that big!" (anonymous)

Speak for yourself anonymous. I have said nothing whatsoever to indicate that I dislike germans. I happen to think that people are basically everywhere alike - merely their cultural conditioning separates them. Its obviously your choice to stick with your close-minded views but the world could certainly much less of that attitude these days.

As for what you see going on in Iraq as it reflects on American military power, it certainly can't have escaped your notice that our troops are constantly putting themselves in danger to avoid the loss of innocent life and even the destruction of cultural landmarks - quite the opposite of the insurgents. We could dispense with such a civilized attitude in a heartbeat if we wanted (take out a mosque filled with insurgents, to give but one example). I can assure you we wouldn't look so bogged down then.

So what in your opinion DOES account for the pervasive anti-American press bias in Germany?

it is just we dont like you and you dont like us, we dont need you and you dont need us! So live with it! why do you care at all? i dont!
and for the "american power" if I see what is going on in iraq, then that power cant be that big!
you can not even handle with a few hundred insurgents! maybe you should ask the mexicans for help............um wait most us-soldiers are already from those latin american countries hired as "Kanonenfutter"!

---------------------------

The American people are indeed an odd bunch - when we are attacked, we fight back

And when we are consistently demonized with simplistic hate propaganda we tend to move toward a more negative view of our critics

Make no mistake - there is very little in the way of well intentioned advice to an old friend in the way the Euro political, cultural and media elites have been portraying the United States these past several years

Rather it is a simple matter of fostering a negative view of the United States for reasons one can define any way one likes

If the Euro elites feel the need to do this because they are impotent, or simply jealous, it matters not

What matters is the constant drumbeat of criticism and frankly racist propaganda

( I know racist is the wrong word there - America is a multiculteral society - unlike Germany and the rest of Europe )

I have often heard this myth of such great support for the US after 9-11, and into and through the Afghan conflict

Having lived through this period I knew it was a myth - but one the Euro's enjoyed since it allowed them more freedom to complain about how unfairly we ousted Saddam

Thank God for the Internet - so the truth of the very short period of Euro sympathy for the USA can be easily documented and thrown in the face of anyone who cares to try out this line of bullshit on us

Here's the news - the United States, and Israel too, have some time ago decided that your sympathy for their losses of life should be traded for your criticism of our efforts to prevent further losses of life

"Europe is irrelevant, we don't care what France or Germany think" - That was the message Europeans and Germans got from the United States. But now reading in this block I have the feeling Americans care a lot about what Europeans and Germans think about them.

Huh.... maybe it is just my impression...... but then again if somebody complains so much about what other people think and say about him these people can't be that irrelevant to him.

I do not care what Americans think about Germany or Germans or Europe and Europeans and I don't have an opinion about Americans either. America is country far away with a different culture and very different people, people I have not much in common with, but that is o.k. cause I don't have to live with them.

Re: who's charitable and who's not - as of now Amazon.com's visitors donated $1,348,263.49 to the American Red Cross' desaster-relief program by way of 25347 payments. You know, Amazon.com, that large internet vendor the technophobes in France and Germany warned us of, destroying traditional jobs and stuff, driving local dealers into bankruptcy therefore government has to protect them by means of 6-digit bureaucrats and so on. Now, France herself has sent - hold on, $177,000, while Germany has pledged to give 2 million Euros. Talking about stinginess.

HAHA. Thanks Tanja. With your ignorant post, you have shown the lot of us the future of German and US relations.

Never mind dear that your country would be just another one of the former eastern bloc countries trying to dig its way out of the socialism morass, had it not been for the US.

The dang Berlin Wall would still be there, had it not been for the people you say have no impact on you or your life.

But again you are the example of what is coming, those of us a little older, well you have to excuse us. When you and your generation start asking wtf America has done for you, and WTF should we even care what the Americans think, when that happens we will be shocked. But do not mind us, and our open mouths with our jaws hitting the floor.

You are right, you do not have much in common with Americans, and I thank God for that.

@Tanja

Huh.... maybe it is just my impression...... but then again if somebody complains so much about what other people think and say about him these people can't be that irrelevant to him.

-------------------

Its human nature to be offended by irrational racist criticism on such a macro level

Surely you would consider it rude were most Americans to focus on all that is negative about Germany - all of the time

Particularly as German men and women fight and die to bring freedom to people crushed under the heel of a brutal dicator for decades

------------------------------------

I do not care what Americans think about Germany or Germans or Europe and Europeans and I don't have an opinion about Americans either. America is country far away with a different culture and very different people, people I have not much in common with, but that is o.k. cause I don't have to live with them.

------------------------------

Oh but you do have much in common with Americans - that is the pity

In fact, when considering the 6B souls ( and climbing ) on our little planet - you have more in common with most Americans than you do with 90% of the rest of the world

The interesting thing is the way so many Europeans have come to define themselves by how different - or really betterin their opinion - they are than Americans

You'll have to pardon me now - I need to make a donation to Americares to help the victims of the tragedy in Asia

You will find that private donations form a very large part of the help the US gives to the world - all of these comparisons about what the EU gives, or Germany gives, are clouded by this reality

To Europeans, the State is the vehicle for ALL activities - and private ( or God forbid religious ) charitable organizations are virtually ignored

If you care to dispute that - point me to Germanycares and its similar groups for an education

Meine email an N24:

Prima Werbung mit dem US-Soldaten und dem Öl-Gewehr. Nicht wegen der Amis. Es wirft ein bezeichnendes Licht auf N24: Kleiner Sender auf Schülerzeitungs-Niveau. Gratuliere, besser hätten Sie sich selbst nicht darstellen können.

Grüße von F. Hoffmann

Hey I'm not a historian, I was born in 1981 so that is when my history starts and I'm not very interested in what happend before . The Berlin wall, I think I was 8 when it came down, but even at this young age I knew this was not a good idea . The wall saved us a lot of money and it was a tourist attraction.

Speaking of the Germans in the east, the former GDR folks, they're also very different people with a different culture and I don't think I have something in common with them. Unfortunately there is no ocean between us, like between the Americans and us.

You're right Jimbo I'm ignorant, it is not that I hate Americans or Iraqis or Eastern Germans or the Frenchies, I just want them all to stay out of my life and if they do I will stay out of their lives.

If it is up to me my Bavarian homeland would declare independece from the rest of Germany, we would leave the EU, the NATO, the UN. It would be a small, politically neutral country with protected borders. We would do no foreign policy at all, we would ignore the rest of the world.

But hey it is not up to me I'm just dreamin', I 'll have to live with a government who is wasting my money in foreign countries and sacrifices the lives of our soldiers for the freedom of other people or for the friendship with America or the love for France or whatever.

Ya know Jimbo I don't understand why so many people in Germany care so much for America. They even care about how many guns the average American owns and they know the number of criminals who were executed in Texas last year, they know exactly how many Americans don't have health insurance and so on. Really things that are absolutly not their business and they should keep their German noses out of internal stuff like that.

Same with the Iraq thing and this Bush hate, I'm against that. The majority of people in Germany was against that war for multiple reasons, our goverment was right not to decide against the majority - thats how I understand democracy. Iraq is an American war and an American problem. Not our war , not our problem and there is too much talk and media coverage about the Iraq war in Germany. And about Bush, he has done nothing bad to Germany, I personally think he is a very strange man, but that is not a reason to hate him. He should be treated like any other foreign president or prime minister when he comes to Germany next year and there should be no protests against him . It is not a German job to protest against him, that is up to the Americans, they can protest against him or not. I don't care if they protest or not, I did not care for the election either , never seen so much coverage for a foreign election in Germany before. I don't think America is so important that we need to be informed every time John Kerry or George Bush were holding a speech in front of 250 pig farmers somewhere in Iowa.

See Jimbo I'm really not Antiamerican, I just don't care for America, I don't hate America, I don't admire America and I don't blame Americans who think Germany is irrelevant , because that is exactly what I think about America. America and Americans and what they do is completly irrelevant for my every day life. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

hey Tanja-
The cowardly freaks who killed 3000 US office workers on Sept 11th were coddled, stroked, pumped with welfare dollars and educated in Germany. What is it about your society that makes fools from all over come for your welfare benefits and then plan the downfall of the West from the comfort of Hamburg or Berlin?
Can you answer that?
Has the damn german govt apologised to the US for fostering such cowardly freaks under the veil of 'asylum"? Has the german govt apologized to the german people for having failed them miserably over the last 10 years?
Why should they, when they can take all theri problems and those of the world and blame them on the US. What cheap and childish crap which spews from germany. The german media's current obsession and portrayal of the US, her citizens and her President boils down to this-
You have NOTHING within germnay to watch or to engross yourselves in. Nothing. Your contributions to the world are szhit here in modern times. The german media's focus on the US is a simple reflection, (from very simple-minded people) of the meaningless of your own lives, within your own country. One can defend the posture of the german govt or press all you want, yet it all boils down to the fact that life in germany has truly become dull.
So now we all get to experience the attempts at re-writing history as is currently practiced by the collective german zeitgeist as they try to wipe their own arse on the face of a country which crushed thier poisonous ideologies, stopped them from goose-stepping across the globe, and then had the stupidity to actually re-built and protect germany for 60 damn years. It was the dumbest damn thing the US has EVER done in it's history, and it greatest waste of money yet. Each week here in the US, and with each week the US has access to the pathetic german press, many millions now feel the same about that waste.
Oh and you euros have been practicing this for 60 years-
"If it is up to me my Bavarian homeland would declare independece from the rest of Germany, we would leave the EU, the NATO, the UN. It would be a small, politically neutral country with protected borders. We would do no foreign policy at all, we would ignore the rest of the world."
Hey- thats how you live currently!- in a welfare bubble removed from reality, it is evident how much this shapes your thinking all across that dying continent.

Tanja, it's wonderful to be young and idealistic. I, too, wish *the world* would leave US alone except for trade, but *the world* keeps dragging US in.

But it's not about Iraq, it never was.

Glad you're here and getting out and about in the world, we're in the beginnings of WWIV. We're just disappointed your country didn't learn its' lessons from first 3 WWs.

Which is 1 reason we go at each other.

I suggest you try and fit in about 5-10 minutes a day and peruse Instapundit.com.

He's the American blogfather.

One complaint Europeans have is that we don't pay attention to you. With the internet, we are.

We can't live in a bubble, and that site is one avenue you can travel while in your pajamas.

@sandy p:...lessons from first 3 WWs

i heard about your counting of world wars. could you repeat it for me? my counting is:
1: 1914-1918
2: 1939-1945
okay, maybe 0: 1618-1648, but that's not serious.

@tanja: If it is up to me my Bavarian homeland would declare independece from the rest of Germany, we would leave the EU, the NATO, the UN. It would be a small, politically neutral country with protected borders. We would do no foreign policy at all, we would ignore the rest of the world.

äh, lustig! soll denn deiner meinung nach franken dazugehören, oder lieber nicht? ist es in ordnung, wenn die eu einfuhrzölle auf bayrische produkte erhebt, wenn bayern nicht mehr zur eu gehört? verbuddelt bayern dann endlich den eigenen atommüll in bayern, oder wird keine elektrizität mehr benötigt?

Via The Diplomad:

...Let's start with the last citation, the one from the UN. I can tell you, dear readers, that I am temporarily working in one of the countries that got slammed hard by the tsunami and while the UN effort might be in high gear, it must have its parking brake on. No sign of that effort here! Lots of bureaucrats flying in and out, but that's about it.

And now to that Egeland character and the UN official site's claims. Notice to the UN: The USA is BY FAR the biggest donor to the UN system. We pay for about 25% of the whole operation, BUT when you look at operations like WFP or UNHCR, we cough up about 40%. That wheat and rice that the WFP is bragging about? It is almost all from the USA. Notice to Mr. Egeland: if taxpayers want to give more they can do so without having the government reach into their wallets. Ever hear of charities? The American people are BY FAR the biggest donors to private charities -- many of which are doing very fine work here in alleviating the suffering. Please note, they are actually on the ground, delivering goods and services, not flying about on first class tickets and holding press conferences in New York.

@pato
americans didnt rebuild germany, we did it! my grandma, grandfather etc. you fatasses did nothing!

@pato
what a desperate freak are you? just wondering.....haha

@ Tanja

No problem, you did not hurt my feelings at all, you made me laugh out loud.

I truely love your pov, it is without prejudice, and as you might say, not informed with all that historical baggage.

But you have walked into a politcal discussion, these things can not be argued without historical backgrounds. But you should express your POV, just clarify it from time to time about what you know about what has gone before.

You and others your age will be electing new leaders based on what and where you want your country to go in the future.

I think it is good for many people on this site to see just what the future holds. Many think all voters who live in the west, know certain historical facts. You honestly say you do not. That is good, and it is a splash of cold water for all those who can not imagine, well can not imagine you.

So when I say, America and Germany could very well be enemies in the near future, if we are not careful, is strengthend by you. And those on the left who deny the damage they are doing with their hatefest of the US, will sooner or later, have to come to grips with you.

Cold War is #3 in certain circles and parts of the blogosphere.

And from the looks of things, it's still going on.

And Tanja?

If you're politically neutral, why need protected borders?

And who's going to protect said borders?

the young delushional an anonymous poster said- "@pato-americans didnt rebuild germany, we did it! my grandma, grandfather etc. you fatasses did nothing!"
Well junior- turn your head to the east and describe the progress the german govt has had re-building that portion of your country.
Now- compare that to the re-building of the western portion of germany.
The US foolishly gave 85 BILLION in todays monies to fund the re-building of YOUR damn country, and again- thats the biggest mistake ever made by the US to this day.
As I've stated on this blog before- If ANY americans would have thought that 60 years after crushing you and your pal Hitler, that we'd be seeing and hearing the crap that we do today coming from germany- we would have simply dropped 100 tons of horszhit (and extra brain cells for the people)over Berlin rather than american food. It would have been a far wiser investment for the US.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

June 2020

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30