« Paranoia in Action | Main | Europe – Thy Name is Cowardice »

Comments

Hate to break the news to y'all, but all my U.S. military buddies tell me training troops for torture does use these techniques and needs to.

OT

Now, about these 20 000 muslims marching against terrorism in Cologne, Germany today, the idiotic German MSM is slobbering all over this story as if it somehow proves that all is fine in Germany or whatever.

The problem with this story is that it was pretty much exclusively Turks who showed up for the march.

Well, we already knew that Turkey is secular and democratic - that's why its being considered for EU membership.

Turkey is not the problem, the Arabs are. Where were they?

And why isn't the idiotic German MSM asking that same question (or at least pointing out that this was a Turkish march much rather than a muslim march)?

While I agree with the fact that these things are commonplace in boot camp, the problem is that Bundeswehr Major General Ernst Heinrich Lutz is already on record calling the incidents a "gross dereliction of duty" and "one-off events".

Thus the "this is normal practice" excuse is no longer available.

The other difference is that in Germany most of those recruits did not chose to be there, they were drafted.

@ Pamela,
soldiers in Germany's special forces are trained for torture. However the troops tortured in this incident were recruits who were taking part in their compulsory military service. The service is currently 9 months long and those kids will never go to Afghanistan unless they sign up and volunteer. Surely this 'torture training' is outrageous.
I do however see similarities to Abu Ghraib. In both cases, military investigation started, the people involved were suspended in both cases and they will be punished in both cases. This case will get more media attention as more details (and maybe pics) will emerge but it will get less attention than the Iraqi prison scandal. To be honest, I don't know if it deserves to get the same attention. The sexual degrading of people whose country you are liberating seems worse to me. But I admit that I am open to change my mind once I am better informed.


And...
Accuracy in the media is not neutral but established to uncover liberal media bias. You might sympathise with its cause but it's not neutral.

"In any case, Germany's reputation as a reputable member of the civilized world is now seriously tarnished."

Es scheint dass Schadenfreude die schönste Freude ist.

I guess Newsweek will now have a cover proclaiming Germany to be "Moralisch Bankrott" :)

When can we expect the Der Spiegel cover with the electocuted soldiers on the cover?

Funny eh? US soldiers scare an Iraqi with electrocution (which never happened) and it gets splashed all over the German media. It will be interesting to see what they do now that German soldiers have actually done it.

in the US military stuff like that is so normal that nobody would even report about that!
military is not kindergarten, not even in germany.

"Germany's reputation as a reputable member of the civilized world is now seriously tarnished."
laughable phrase!!!

Note from David: Do you have an antenna to sense sarcasm?

Well, well, David,

somehow you mix up the words 'torture' and 'abuse'. What happened in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and God knows where else was torture: prisoners were and still are tortured to get information. What happened in the BW was abuse: higher ranking officers abused recruits for the pure (sadistic) fun of it.

Greetings,
Joe.

@JOE

man ohh man !!!


What’s the difference between torture and physical abuse?

How can you qualify what happened in Abu Graib as torture and not abuse ?

"What happened in the BW was abuse: higher ranking officers abused recruits for the pure (sadistic) fun of it."

Wrong,the instuctor said it was part of his special training programs.
Sooo, if these training programs was "interrogation tactics and resistance" it finally was torture.

..you got it ????

Greets

ELCI

That's incredible. Still no name input field but the WIXXER ALIASES are still posting with their names. How come?

How many hands does the WIXXER really have? Maybe he should approve for a new Hindu God.

"That's incredible. Still no name input field but the WIXXER ALIASES are still posting with their names. How come?

How many hands does the WIXXER really have? Maybe he should approve for a new Hindu God."

....try to post using "preview"


YOOOO !!!!!


There actually is a difference between some of your soldiers torturing prisoners you made in a country you invaded, and your soldiers abusing themselves.

"In any case, Germany's reputation as a reputable member of the civilized world is now seriously tarnished."

...as long as you get some schadenfreude out of it, the torture seems to have been well worth the effort, huh? Did you send out a thanks-note to the perpetrators yet?

[Note to David: Never mind sarcasm - have you ever heard of the term "contempt for human beings"?]

Unfortunately a little „Schadenfreude“ does play a role here.

I have the greatest respect for German soldiers as I do for American soldiers.

Recently Clemens Verenkotte lectured me on WDR Hart aber Fair that it was fine and good that a young soldier reported the abuses in Abu Ghraib and that the United States Military Justice System was prosecuting the perpetrators. BUT he explained to me that someone had to assume the political responsibility for this. He was very gracious when he suggested that it wouldn’t necessarily have to be Bush to step down, but he thought it would have been appropriate if at least Don Rumsfeld had stepped down. You know, he explained, it is the political responsibility which is not down at the level of the soldier.

Now “Schadenfreude” has no place in the discussion of fair play. Fair play presumes measuring the same offence with the same measure. This does not appear to be happening here.

In both Abu Ghraib and now in Germany there is a huge problem with “Leadership”. In both cases either the NCOs or the Officers should have stepped in to stop it. They did not. In both cases there were young men (in the case of the States and women) who were in situations they were not able to deal with rationally. Neither situation turns the US/Americans or Germany/Germans into morally bankrupt societies. In both cases the situation was reported and in both cases the situation will be dealt with appropriately. With the exception Americans feel that war crimes committed by US soldiers should be prosecuted in US military jurisdiction. Now the academic question arises: are these war crimes and should they not be prosecuted at the International Criminal Court? The Germans support this institution – so what do they think now. Of course the ICC is only supposed to be used when the criminal can or will not be prosecuted in his/her own jurisdiction, but that’s a minor detail that is left out of every article I have read on the issue in the German media.

Messen mit zweierlei Maß – translation: Measuring with two different measures.

Has Germany now lost all credibility on the Arab street? Or is it possible that this very unfortunate incident will nock some of these high and mighty righteous individuals down a couple of pegs?

Schopenauer once said that humans are capable of doing everything that they can imagine, good and bad. A wonderful thought on the one hand. But horrifying on the other.

Are the Germans going to forgive their soldiers for this behaviour? How will they react when pictures are beamed all over the world? Will they treat themselves with the same hardness and self-righteousness as they treat and treated the US and her soldiers?

Trish

Recently Clemens Verenkotte lectured me on WDR Hart aber Fair that it was fine and good that a young soldier reported the abuses in Abu Ghraib and that the United States Military Justice System was prosecuting the perpetrators. BUT he explained to me that someone had to assume the political responsibility for this. He was very gracious when he suggested that it wouldn’t necessarily have to be Bush to step down, but he thought it would have been appropriate if at least Don Rumsfeld had stepped down. You know, he explained, it is the political responsibility which is not down at the level of the soldier.

Seriously, if German soldiers had tortured and abused local prisoners in - say - Afghanistan (to pick a country where the Bundeswehr is actually stationed), I am pretty darn sure Peter Struck would have stepped down. Voluntarily or forced to leave by the media and the opposition. I actually do believe in political responsibility.

@ afromme
Political resposibilty in Germany the way I have experienced in the last years is somebody screws up, steps down and collect double pensions.

Seriously - what's the difference between an Afghani and a German? So Afghanis are worth more than your own countrymen? That makes no sense to me.

hey trish,

you do not see the difference between sadistic drill procedures in the army of almost every country worldwide and beating the shit out of prisoners for information?

Note from David: parts del.

"Note from David: parts del."

sorry David. Am I aimed in a very private way?

On the other hand: should I quote some offensive posts from other "guests" (same political attitude as You), which remain in this blog untouched?

Isn't it funny to be blamed for bias?

Note from David: ahem, you wondered whether another commentator (you called by name) has any brain at all. That easily qualifies for deletion of your comment.
As to our comments policy: this is not a public place with equal rights for everyone, and it doesn't need to be. Still, I try to be impartial, but sometimes I'm not. And often, I simply don't notice foul language.
My standard advice to repeated critics of this blog (like you) is to start your own blog, if you don't like our postings or comments. I wouldn't even think of commenting at SPIEGEL ONLINE's space or at telepolis', and I doubt they would let me get away with it, if I did so.

Those pondering the relative debauchery of the Germand vs American "torture" incidents please keep the following in mind.

Nowhere in the German example can the real time slaughter of fellow soldiers be used as an extending circumstance.

What I was trying to address here is not the various degrees of torture, rather how free democratic societies deal with this when their members partake in such behavior. I also wanted to address the double standard that when the "US" does it, our system is not trusted to take care of it, when however our critics do it there is no question that they are capable of taking care of it in an appropriate manner.

I have no doubt that the German justice system will take care of this situation in an appropriate manner. I am just wondering why there seems to be no doubt in the German media that Germans and Germany will take care of this properly but the same media does not afford the same trust and leniency towards the US democracy, the US justice system and the US system of checks and balances.

Political resposibilty in Germany the way I have experienced in the last years is somebody screws up, steps down and collect double pensions.

..which would be different in any other country, of course...
Actually - it'd even be the same with a CEO that has to step down...

Seriously - what's the difference between an Afghani and a German? So Afghanis are worth more than your own countrymen? That makes no sense to me.

I'm not saying it's okay for officers (or whatever ranks) to abuse their inferiors.
But there is a difference between soldiers in the German or US (or whatever) forces torturing other soldiers and German or US or French soldiers torturing prisoners they made in a country their country offcially went into in order to liberate it.

Just like there is a difference between policemen abusing other policemen, and policemen abusing suspects.

The latter makes people lose trust in the police (or the foreign forces' intentions)...

Again - I'm not saying it's okay for anybody to abuse anyone, mind you.

Trish,
ich sehe das genauso. Auch dieser Mißbrauch der UNO-Truppen stößt auf kein großes Interesse in den Medien. Über Abu Ghraib wurde täglich auf allen Kanälen, in allen Talkshows, über Monate bis heute berichtet, es empörte die Menschen zutiefst.

Alles andere Elend der Welt, Verbrechen der UN, Verbrechen anderer Nationen kann die Menschen nicht so bewegen oder auch nur interessieren. Man ist in KRANKHAFTER Weise auf USA und Israel fixiert.

WARUM NUR? Das soll sich doch einmal jeder selbst beantworten. Warum hat man für die Selbstmordattentate der palästinensicher Terroristen nur ein Achselzucken, vielleicht noch ein "Das war nicht schön" "Das ist nicht hinnehmbar" "Das ist nicht zu akzeptieren" und ähnliche schlaffe Formulierungen, aber von Wut und Empörung ist nichts zu spüren. Dieses Gefühl ist einfach nicht vorhanden. Mit den Opfern des Terrors fühlt man nicht so sehr mit.

Aber wenn die Israelische Regierung Häuser zerstört, dann kocht das deutsche Blut hoch. Das regt auf, empört, das geht durch alle Talkshows. Dieser böse Scharon. Dieser böse Jude, schlägt einfach zurück. Nein, das sei menschenverachtend. Genauso macht man es mit den US-Amerikanern. Hatten sie am 9/11 noch weltweit Mitleid, als sie tot und blutend am Boden lagen, als sie aber aufstanden und sich wehrten, brachte man ihnen genau dieselbe Verachtung entgegen wie Israel.

Es möge sich doch jeder prüfen, warum er so intensiv auf Aktionen der USA und Israel reagiert. Warum erzeugt das so viel Haß in vielen?

Statt sich immer mit dem Haßobjekt zu beschäftigen, sollte man doch mal nachdenken, warum man selbst diesen Haß hat. Vielleicht entdeckt man ja so manches merkwürdige Gefühl, das man lange unterdrückt hat und kommt der Wahrheit näher.

Diese Vorwürfe unten sind monatealt. Nichts passiert. Keiner regt sich auf.

@Gabi,
Zur Frage "warum nur?" hier ein interessanter Ansatz von Matthias Küntzel, den Sie vielleicht schon kennen, aber für den ich Ihnen sicherheitshalber den Link gebe:

http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/artikel.php?artikelID=77

Hier ein Auszug:

"Sozialpsychologisch ist der Hass auf Israel durch ein Phänomen motiviert, dass der israelische Psychologe Rex Zwi mit dem berühmten Satz: „Die Deutschen werden den Juden Auschwitz nie verzeihen“ umschrieb. Sein Bezug auf Deutschland greift jedoch zu kurz. Seit den ersten Jahrhunderten des Christentums fanden Antisemitismus und Judenverfolgung ausschließlich in Europa statt. Vor tausend Jahren rotteten Kreuzfahrer in zahlreichen Massakern die Juden in fast ganz Gallien aus. In Worms wurden damals 800 Juden in nur zwei Tagen massakriert. 11.000 französische Kinder wurden, nur weil sie jüdisch waren, nach Auschwitz deportiert und so weiter und so fort.
Ich halte die Vermutung für plausibel, dass Ausläufer eines hieraus resultierenden Schuldgefühls im christlichen Europa nach wie vor virulent sind. Dies aber würde bedeuten, dass jedwedes „Verbrechen“, für das man Juden oder gar den jüdischen Staat verantwortlich machen kann, wie eine Entlastung wirkt. Der von Sigmund Freud analysierte Wunsch, „sich Glücksversicherung und Leidensschutz durch wahnhafte Umbildung der Wirklichkeit zu schaffen“, ist in Deutschland freilich besonders ausgeprägt. Das Ausmaß der massenhaft begangenen NS-Verbrechen korreliert mit einer Art Sonderbedarf an Entlastung. Ein Beispiel: 69 % der Österreicher und 65 % der Deutschen gaben letztes Jahr auf die Frage, welcher Staat den Frieden in der Welt derzeit am meisten bedrohe, in „wahnhafter Umbildung der Wirklichkeit“ ausgerechnet Israel an, während im EU-Durchschnitt 59 Prozent so votierten."

Note from David: ahem, you wondered whether another commentator (you called by name) has any brain at all. That easily qualifies for deletion of your comment.

I fully agree.
And I understand and respect the other explanations you gave about your comments policy.

However, the sentence quoted above for me raised the following question:
In contrast to claiming somebody in particular has no brain at all, it's okay to say about a rather heterogenous group, like, say, "German left-wing intellectuals", that "brain softening" is a disease quite common among them? Or to imply another, even more heterogenous group, like the "German left", for instance, are a bunch of literally crazy people?
And you're genuinely surprised some people are offended by this (i.e.: such underlying malice and disdain) and react correspondingly (I'm not saying "appropriately", mind you)?

Note from David: There's a big difference between addressing an anonymous group and an individual person (who occasionally even posts here with her real life company e-mail-address). I thought this is obvious.
Anyway: Please no further discussions about our blog's philosophy in our comment sections. Sorry I participated. If you have any complaints send me an e-mail.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

June 2022

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
      1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30