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Pat posts:
"@ ed: thanks for this particular comment, because it hits the nail right on the head. It is up to a court to decided whether this soldiers did right, acted in bad judgement only under stress or committed a crime in cold blod. But it is this investigation which makes us different from the terrorist who dispise common laws and GEneva conventions."

Cheerio
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Thinking people know the difference without having to spend much time on it.
Just like we watched Abu Ghraib for weeks without ever seeing the videos available of the real atrocities committed by the criminal hussein regime . . .
Just like we are watching the footage of the American soldier killing the terrorist ad nauseum, but I am searching for the story on the pile of body parts recently found that may be the remains of CARE worker Margaret Hassan, 59, or of Teresa Borcz, 54, a Pole abducted two weeks ago."


The begged question anymore is, "what differentiates a majority of the 'progressive' Europeans from the leftover criminal ba'athist thugs?" (Oh, did I say thug? I am sorry, in polite conversation here they are referred to as 'freedom fighter.')

Someone once said, "Judge a people by the company they keep." In Europe the lemming-like herd zeitgeist is . . .
Bush is a "war criminal" and Hussein is a . . . victim!

Tyranno

http://www.mineweb.net/download_files/sections/OilForFood4.pdf

Surprise your friends, here's the flowchart on how the UNSCAM worked.

Via Rantburg.

@ Tyranno: as you quote me and than keep on commenting...... I know it was late at night when you wrote that, but what exactly was or is your point? I did not get it, to be quite frank.
Would like to react, you know.

Pat posts:

"@ Tyranno: as you quote me and than keep on commenting...... I know it was late at night when you wrote that, but what exactly was or is your point? I did not get it, to be quite frank.
Would like to react, you know."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Pat,
My point was in agreement with what ed had written, that people without the currently fashionable european "hoping for the U.S. to fail" agenda know that the American led coaltion did hold itself to as high a standard as is humanly possible in the fight for Falluja.
. . . but that these same 'compassionate' souls so worried about the Geneva Conventions would ever hold the criminal hussein regime before or the fascist islamic beheaders now to any kind of civilized standard.

Thinking people know that there are bad apples in any organization and bad things do and will continue to happen in war. They also know that such behaviors are not systemic nor sanctioned as a part of coalition or American policy.

Just like the truth about the Jessica Lynch 'rescue' came out after the investigation . . .
just like the truth about Pat Tilman 'heroics' came out after the investigation . . .
just like the truth about Abu Ghraib 'torture' came out after the investigation . . .
None of these investigative results served to better the image of the U.S.A. And, all of these could have been glossed over to avoid the embarrassing truths . . . but a cover up didn't happen. The truth was published, warts and all, for the world to see.
This incident, like the ones listed above, will be thoroughly investigated and the truth will come out when they think they have ascertained it.

My point is that selective facts to inculcate a preferred euro opinion are as much censorship as omission (UN Food for Oil story) is.
Why the repetative stories about a U.S. Marine killing a wounded terrorist in a mosque ... but next to nothing about the "freedom fighters" slaughtering a gentle Irish woman who was married to an Iraqi and had worked for the charitable organization CARE in Iraq for 25 years.

My point is in the current euro-climate where Bush is the bad guy ~ and arafat, hussein, and the sunni terrorists are victims, what differentiates the majority of mainstream europeans polled from your basic Arab who has been brought up under an oppressive dictatorship and fed on a steady stream of Al-Jazeera?
Or to put it another way, how do a majority of europeans suckled for life in the arms of their socialist nanny state, with the best schools and the freest press in the world ~ or so my european friends tell me, ~ end up with the same cramped and hatefilled perspectives and opinions as those same Arabs?

My point is, as we are seeing again, those with an agenda will attempt a broad brush smear of the entire Iraqi liberation with this footage like they did with Abu Ghraib, before the facts are known.

Tyranno

@ Tyranno: thanks for the clarification. Most of what you say is true also from my point of view (even though being German and thus part of OLD EUROPE). As you can see from the majority of my comments on this thread and others.......

Cheerio

Pat,
I am "old" Europe too, but my family left Coburg and emmigrated to Philidelphia in 1865.


A follow up question in general and offered up to my German friends out there is, why are some (so many) Europeans so willing to give aid, comfort and HOPE to the residual ba'athist/Sunni regime thugs, the fanatic Islamic terrorists, and the criminal element released from the prisons . . who are murdering many more Iraqis than Coalition forces by about a factor of 10?

The U.S. occupation? A war crime? Imperialism?

HHhhmmmm. . . How about another historical european screw up?
Since the U.S. is dealing with the religious/ tribal problems of a make believe nation Europe created, inside borders Europe drew based on that regions potential for their own commercial benefit.
Since the U.S. is dealing with a criminal dictatorship that was armed to the teeth with weapons of war provided primarily by China (#1) Russia (#2) and France (#4). (SIPRI)

Since Kofi Annon is stonewalling the Senate investigation into potentially the largest fraud in recorded human history . . is the liberation of Iraq really so bad, so much worse than the Chinese, Russian and French governments, and the humanitarian UNITED NATIONS, willingness to look the other way from the rape, torture and murder of approximately 30-40 Iraqis a day (350,000 unmarked graves ... so far) as a systemic government policy to maintain fear and control of a faux country cobbled together by real European imperialists?
With all the loose talk about Bush's "War for Oil" Does it strike anyone as odd that it was the Europeans who were/ are willing to sustain criminal dictatorships, willing to look the other way because dealing with the crimnal hussein regime was profitable for them?

Tyranno


Tyranno,

You raise some excellent points. Europeans ARE willing to look the other way because they have lost the ability to effect foreign policy. There is much attendtion in popular media here in Europe towards "soft power." Just exactly what is this? Can some Euro please explain soft-power to Tibet? It was a country on it's own when ivaded by a real power, China. It really gained nothing else from the Chinese... Soft power is a noble title given to the likes of Joshka Fisher who trounces around the world. Power is confused with the clean shaven face broadcast around the world to a waiting media eager for profit and sensationalism.

It seems to me that the world has a very short memory. Why does Russia not feel obligated to participate realistically with resolving a portion of the world who dabbled in Soviet Marxism at it's instigation? Why doesn't Russia, Germany (East) and the likes suffer from a guilty conscience resulting from their sponsoring of terrorists in the region? Cannot Europe see that Iraq will remain a difficult region to control due to the fact the France and The UK arbitrarily ethnically divided a the Middle East to suit their own interests? What about the Kurds?

I find it interesting that Europeans enjoy a luxury that they themselves are even unaware of : the ability to criticise the US on just about everything. Strangely, it has been the USA that has been the one to correct all of Europes screw-ups and shortcommings: Hitler's appeasement, Nato and containment, Kosovo, Bosnia, etc. What has Europe ever had to offer the US? Other than those ancestors of ours that had the common sense to leave Europe. This phenonoman of "The colonies" succeeding is not just limited to the USA, but to Canada, New Zealand and Australia.

Considering the way economics are proceeding here in Europe, I really wonder if a discussion of how we got to this schism is really as important as to knowing where it will be going.

James posts:
"Considering the way economics are proceeding here in Europe, I really wonder if a discussion of how we got to this schism is really as important as to knowing where it will be going."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good points all and an interesting insight into wondering "how we got here,"
. . . . with the Europeans doing 90+% of all the accusing, all the finger pointing, all the bad mouthing and name calling.

The obvious parallel is the democrats in the U.S.A. bemoaning Bush being a "divider not a Uniter!" While calling him a "liar" a "war criminal," "stupid . . . it is an absurd irony when the accusation is coming from the guilty party ~ attempting a very unsubtle bait and switch.

Tyranno

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