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Auch noch ein Welt-Artikel dazu:

Rechtsextreme spekulieren auf Denkzettelwahlen
Enttäuschte wählen Opposition gegen das System
von Eckhard Jesse

Der Verfasser wohnt in einem kleinen schmucken sächsischen Ort, in dem die NPD bei den Europawahlen eine Stimme mehr erzielen konnte als die SPD. Sachsen ist für die NPD eine Hochburg, für die SPD Diaspora. Die sächsische NPD gehört im Gegensatz zur brandenburgischen DVU bisher allerdings nicht dem Landtag an. Was die beiden Landtagswahlen am 19. September so interessant macht, ist weniger die Frage der künftigen Regierungskonstellation. In Sachsen wird die Union weiterregieren, in Brandenburg die SPD mit ihrem Juniorpartner CDU. Die jetzigen Ministerpräsidenten Matthias Platzeck und Georg Milbradt, die die Landesväter Manfred Stolpe und Kurt Biedenkopf nach fast zwölf Jahren abgelöst haben, dürften auch die künftigen sein. Unsicherheit herrscht jedoch über die Höhe des Erfolges der beiden rechtextremistischen Parteien. In Brandenburg tritt nur die DVU an, in Sachsen lediglich die NPD. Dadurch wollen die beiden Parteien ihr Wählerreservoir ausschöpfen. Die Aussichten sind gut. Der breite Unmut im Osten, der sich etwa an den Protesten gegen Hartz IV festmacht, nützt nicht nur der PDS, sondern auch den rechtsextremistischen Trittbrettfahrern. Mit populistischen Parolen gehen solche Parteien auf Stimmenfang, gerieren sich als "Rächer der Enterbten".


http://www.welt.de/data/2004/09/13/331945.html

Well, just yesterday I posted here asking about insights to the East/West German dynamic.

I guess I should be careful what I ask for.

The unemployment is 20%? Dear Lord!
Serious question: Do we Americans have to worry about Germany going up in flames again?

This is not a good start to the day.

Pamela,

don't worry, Germany won't go up in flames. I guess you have already heard of this story: If you throw a frog into boiling water, it jumps out. In you put a frog in cold water and slowly increase the temperature, it stays in the water even if it starts boiling.

Well, the german economy didn't change from growth engine to complete fiasco over night. It's a long, slow process of increasing welfare spending and subsidies on the one hand, and thereby reducing growth on the other hand. It's going on like this since the Germany's first real post-war recession in the late 1960s.

So, we're boiled slowly this time. And a German who is boiled slowly won't call for a revolution. He doesn't even understand that changing (i.e., depleting) the welfare state might be necessary. I even would not worry about the 10% or so who'll vote for right-wing parties in the upcoming state elections. They don't vote for the extremists because they want some change -- even not a change towards facism. But they vote for the extremists because they want to pursue the most extreme and visible form of protest against even the slightest change of the welfare state.

So, it's all very sad indeed, but no real reason for worry. Germany won't change, it won't get much better, but is also won't get much worse.

Actually, I can't see a problem here. If the neo-communist PDS can recieve a public mandate, people shouldn't be so hypocrytic and cry havoc when the NPD gets elected, too. As long as both sides play by the rules, the far right has the same rights as the far left has.

@pamela @ statler,

I'm not so sure that Germany isn't ripe for a revolution. This country is split into so many little groups, the unions, the various parties, the socalled "workgivers" the Beamten, the well off, all special interest groups most of whom believe they are owed something. The way the economic planning in this country is going the wall may go back up - around the whole country - to keep those who are capable of creating jobs in the country. As long as those who know how to create value i.e. jobs hands are being tied behind their backs - this place may very well blow.

WE have had this discussion about the rebirth of Nazi-power in Germany now for so many times during the last say two decades (this is the time I myelf have consciously followed the debate, hence it may be older even), because Neo-Nazi-parties have succeded about 14 times to get elected into state parliaments and at least 2 times into the European Parliament (if you count the "Republikaner" to the same group of parties as NPD and DVU). But they have never made ground after elections and in many cases (comparable to other protest parties like the "STATT-Partei" and Schill-Partei in Hamburg) they have evaporized during their one term. nly Brandenburg has the DVU lasted for the recent term and will be relelected for the first time - but without any major input into the political process and without major strengthening from it.

The problem for those parties is, that the people on the list are a rather colorful and heterogen collection of people with very different believes about Germany, Reich, Race or economy, social welfare etc. They might have a consensus about what they are against. But political daily work requires to find a position about what you stand for. I myself have been member of state parliament in Saxony from 1990-1994 and have seen how "protesters" like the Green Party or the PDS got easily tamed when confronted with normal,daily political work in parliament. In nearly all cases in the recent past those Neo-Nazi party faction members in the parliament started to get after each others throat out of envy for certain higher paid positions (leader of the faction, manager of the faction, speaker of the faction etc.) and also because these people usually have not understood the basic concept of compromise necessary while working in a team.

Of course they can use up now a lot of the steam from social welfare reforms, which left many people uncertain about what is going to happen to them. Piss poor preparation of the reforms and even worse communication of these reforms to the public have made it easy for demagogues from left and right to abuse the fear of the people for their goals. Besides: these reforms consistet of a package of different steps, some cutting social pays to people on welfare, some increasing investment in infrastructure and investment in critical areas. Now only the cutting of social welfare payments has been left and if unemployment is set at 20 % and only a couple of thousands open places for job seekers available, those cuts do not appear to make people look more for jobs, but rather it looks like some form of punishment. Hence they are perceived by now as unjust and unfair.

But their is no need to fear the election of the NPD in Saxony or the DVU in Brandeburg..... they will evaporize and cease to exist as political power in parliament within 2-3 years after election.

Cheerio

The NPD's anti-American and anti-Jewish stance is indeed troubling.

Other than that, I'd hate to see Medienkritik participate in the political left's anti-"Nazi" witchhunt. Their "gegen rechts" campaigns are essentially aiming at silencing all those with dissenting (read: non-left) views by branding them "extremists" and "unanständige Deutsche".

Moreover, parties such as the NPD are the only ones who have the guts to speak out against bogus asylum seekers and increased crime rates in major cities caused by (young male) immigrants. Until the major parties begin to even acknowledge problems like these (don't wait for it), I feel that some kind of right counterweight to all the left-wing politics (PDS, Grüne, SPD, part of FDP) should not be entirely unwelcome.

There is one other thing that puzzles me since early of last weekend:

according to my knowledge (now confirmed by research at http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/sachsen.htm ) there were two separate polls on Friday for potential votes in Saxony, one by the ZDF and one by the locally important news paper "Leipziger Volkszeitung" .

Here are the different results:

Party ZDF LVZ
CDU 47 % 44 %
SPD 11 % 14 %
PDS 19 % 19 %
Green 6 % 7 %
FDP 4 % 6 %
NDP 9 % 7 %

The sample for the poll is roughly the same, even though they do not mention about regional diversity, which in Saxony might be quite important.

Now, I don't want to appear paranoid, but only the ZDF poll has been used in TV and most news papers. If you want to make sure, that people likely to give a protest vote and not yet likely to vote for PDS, the outcome forcasted by the ZDF makes it most reasonable to vote for SPD or GReen. By polling down the FDP in Saxony, which has been strong for a couple of month by now, and giving the leading CDU a margin close to absolute majority (because the votes of all parties not elected into the house get shared by the elected parties, 47 % can be enough to run an absolute majority of the house), the only way to protest by not voting for NPD or PDS is to go for SPD and GREEN party. Also, if you want to stop the NPD but also if you do not want to stop for the incumbent party, nothing is left but to vote for SPD, GREEN or PDS (and those swing-voters I have in mind would not vote PDS either).

AS I said, I could be paranoid, but than the saying is true: even paranoid people have enemies!

What do you think about it?

One other thing I have to critizise: the circle for root causes is only partly right. Or the to monocausalistic:

ath the bottom of the circle, taxes and tax increase are the cause for lack of investment in Germany. This is only true to a very small part. I have worked in scientific research for several years (for a dissertation that I could not finish, unfortunately) on the topic of comparison of taxes among competing nations as causes for investment patterns and employment patterns. All research shows that taxes play only a minor role in managment decision processes for deciding on a particular investment. Especially since taxation of corporations is very hard to compare because of the different taxes and tax-examptions on the different levels of a nation (federal/central, state/regional, local). The main reason for the decay of direct investment in Germany is, according to all available data for me the overregulation of labor in Germany and the huge bueraucratism in Germany. A study fro a couple of years ago showed, that in a sample, where "ceteris paribus" is a given, a difference of 10 percent points in taxation is necessary before companies shift investments and production from one place to another.

Therefore the circle does not hold. But on the other hands taxes could and should be much less in Germany, hence taxation is an issue.

Cheerio

vielen Dank für Ihre eMail vom 3. September 2004.

Die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika und die Mitgliedstaaten der
Europäischen Union bilden eine Werte- und Schicksalsgemeinschaft. Die
enormen Herausforderungen des internationalen Terrorismus können wir nur
gemeinsam bewältigen. Schon deshalb gehört für mich eine funktionierende
transatlantische Partnerschaft zwischen den USA und der EU sowie ihren
Mitgliedstaaten zu den tragenden Säulen unserer Außen- und
Europapolitik. Diese Partnerschaft zu gefährden, halte ich für einen
schwerwiegenden Fehler. Aus diesem Grund haben die Unionsparteien und
auch ich den amtierenden Bundeskanzler wegen seines im Wahlkampf
eingeschlagenen und populistisch motivierten Sonderweg in der Irakkrise
immer wieder scharf kritisiert.

Was die von mir kritisierten Ausführungen von Guiliani auf dem Parteitag
der Republikaner anbelangt, so bin ich der Auffassung, daß die
Vereinigten Staaten und die EU ihre jeweiligen Bemühungen im Kampf gegen
den internationalen Terrorismus wechselseitig anerkennen und auf
Vorhaltungen verzichten sollten. Beide Seiten verfolgen letztlich die
selben Ziele und sollten die im Zuge der Irakkrise insbesondere im
deutsch-amerikanischen Verhältnis aufgetretenen Probleme so schnell wie
möglich überwinden. Giulianis Verweis auf die Freilassung dreier
palästinensischer Attentäter der olympischen Spiele nach der Entführung
der Lufthansa-Maschine im Jahre 1972 halte ich deshalb für verfehlt,
weil er fälschlicherweise einen ursächlichen Zusammenhang zwischen
dieser nunmehr über 30 Jahre zurückliegenden und vom damaligen
US-Botschafter übrigens ausdrücklich gewünschten Entscheidung der
seinerzeitigen Bundesregierung einerseits sowie dem Erstarken des
internationalen Terrorismus in den vergangenen Jahren andererseits
herstellt.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ihr Peter Hintze

This is the reply I got from Mr. Hintze after I complained to him about his remarks he made during the Republican Convention.
Trish, Did you get an answer?

And the US is supposed to be under right-wing extremism.


Right...............

Everything old is new again. And they're doing this because it worked so well the last time???

And what's this about Poland getting WWII reparations???

hehehehehehehehehehe

HI Virginia,

Gee and I thought I was special. (JUST KIDDING)

Sehr geehrte Frau XXXX,


vielen Dank für Ihre eMail vom 2. September 2004.


Ich bin mir sehr wohl der großen historischen Leistung der USA für unser Land bewußt und empfinde eine große Dankbarkeit dafür, daß die USA nach dem 2. Weltkrieg Frieden und Freiheit in Westeuropa garantierten. Die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika und die Mitgliedstaaten der Europäischen Union bilden eine Werte- und Schicksalsgemeinschaft. Die enormen Herausforderungen des internationalen Terrorismus können wir nur gemeinsam bewältigen. Schon deshalb gehört für mich eine funktionierende transatlantische Partnerschaft zwischen den USA und der EU sowie ihren Mitgliedstaaten zu den tragenden Säulen unserer Außen- und Europapolitik. Diese Partnerschaft zu gefährden, halte ich für einen schwerwiegenden Fehler. Aus diesem Grund haben die Unionsparteien und auch ich den amtierenden Bundeskanzler wegen seines im Wahlkampf eingeschlagenen und populistisch motivierten Sonderweg in der Irakkrise immer wieder scharf kritisiert.
Was die von mir kritisierten Ausführungen von Guiliani auf dem Parteitag der Republikaner anbelangt, so bin ich der Auffassung, daß die Vereinigten Staaten und die EU ihre jeweiligen Bemühungen im Kampf gegen den internationalen Terrorismus wechselseitig anerkennen und auf Vorhaltungen verzichten sollten. Beide Seiten verfolgen letztlich die selben Ziele und sollten die im Zuge der Irakkrise insbesondere im deutsch-amerikanischen Verhältnis aufgetretenen Probleme so schnell wie möglich überwinden. Giulianis Verweis auf die Freilassung dreier palästinensischer Attentäter der olympischen Spiele nach der Entführung der Lufthansa-Maschine im Jahre 1972 halte ich deshalb für verfehlt, weil er fälschlicherweise einen ursächlichen Zusammenhang zwischen dieser nunmehr über 30 Jahre zurückliegenden und vom damaligen US-Botschafter übrigens ausdrücklich gewünschten Entscheidung der seinerzeitigen Bundesregierung einerseits sowie dem Erstarken des internationalen Terrorismus in den vergangenen Jahren andererseits herstellt.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen


Ihr Peter Hintze

Hi Trish,
At least it was not verbatim and we did get a response. I am going to ask him how the damage that the SPD and the leftist media have done to the transatlantic relationship can be changed. I have never experienced such anti-Americanism and, therefore, have not much hope that the CDU can reverse the trend. I would not go back there anymore if it were not for my friends and relatives.

I understand - I want to return to the States as soon as I can

"Den Anschläge zu gedenken ist pure Heuchelei. Dafür haben Amerikaner seither zu viele Menschen umgebracht.
Bleibt bestenfall das Gedenken der Opfer. Dann aber auch der tausenden von Toten im Bombenhagel der B52 Bomber.

Hinsehen ergibt eben ein wenig mehr Täter als manche wahr haben wollen."

Here is a good example. The writer is talking about 9/11. Da koennte mir doch tatsaechlich das Messer in der Tasche aufgehen.


No one should have a hissie fit if the NPD gets even 10% of the vote in Saxony. We should remember all the hustle and bustle about Haider and the FVP in Austria; not to mention, the laughable cordon saintaire which made an ass out of every participating head of State and a mockery of the EU. Is Holger Meins of RAF fame still part of the party or has it become to cuddly for him? Regardless a part of me would think it a hoot if the President of Poland or the Prime Minister of Estonia would publically call into question the future of democracy in Germany?

Having lived and worked in Germany for many years, I really don't think the extreme right wing poses any widespread danger. Most people think they are a bunch of idiots. Saying the sprectre of nazism is on the rise in Germany is about as accurate as what SPON and others like to spew about what happens in America.

One thing I have wondered however is whether Germany has a future as a united entity (and I don't just mean east and west). Let's face it, the Germanic tribes were only united by Bismarck in 1871 so the concept of a united Germany is a relatively young one. They have lived much longer apart than together. It is only natural that today's divisions of north and south (an enduring cultural divide), east and west (a more recent bifurcation), etc appear so strongly. The Bavarian, Thueringers, Swabians, Berliners, Hamburgers, Pfalzers, etc have a strong local identity and differing social mores. The northerners would never vote for a lederhosen wearing Bayer for chancellor and the southerners turn up their nose at "fischkopf" candidates.

One must wonder, has the German experiment run its course? Are the German speaking peoples meant to live in independent smaller entities much like the Austrians and Ostschweizers? Is this a bad thing?

Is it just me, or does someone else see a Jean-Marie LePen drama on the horizon?

Joe:

I doubt there is a "Le Pen" drama on the horizon. But I would note that the danger of the "anti-republican" parties in France and Germany should not be understated. By anti-republican I mean parties of the far left and right that reject the constitutional settlement. In France in 2002, those parties ended up with 39% of the first round presidential vote. The only good thing is that they cannot work with each other.

In Germany, the real danger is that the PDS could get above 5% on a protest, while the FDP drops below 5%. In such case, you could end up with a hung parliament under the German system.

Virginia:

so basically what Hintze was trying to tell you is that American and European fate it hitched together, and that we should basically do what europeans so that Germans don't feel hurt?

The man needs to get out more - like, say to both the US and the fringes of the middle east...

@ ps: with all due respect, but you seem already influenced by the nonsense the NPD and DVU are uttering about the current political parties and the democratical system. a) it is not true that "only the NPD" had and has the guts to speak out against "bogus asylum seekers" and crime rate amonst young immigrants. My own party, the CSU has made strong points in this reference in the past, as has the CDU and as have numeorus members of the other parties mentioned, like the FDP. However, standing there whining and chanting "das Boot ist voll" does not change a thing. We are in no position to just simply close our borders, neither geographically nor legally. However, this particular problem has been largely solved during the last couple of years or have you forgotten the high numbers of asylum seekers of the 1990s in comparions to today? So, while the NPD-boys put on their fancy vlack boots again, the "Bonzen" of the democratic parties have done something about it. Terribly slow they were, I grant you that. But thats democracy, there are often no easy and quick answers. Which is exactly why such parties like the NPD and DVU and REPUBLIKANER fail so miserably in daily political work once they got elected. So please spare me with the NPD being a necessarry right wing alternative to existing parties: it is not!

@ Hector: as a Bavarian I can of course partly agree: we would be better of in an Alpine German Republic consisting of Bavaria, Suebia (Baden-Wuertemberg), Austria (horribile dictu!) and parts of Switzerland. The orientation towards the south (including northern Italy) is much stronger than towards the protestant North and East. It is not just for fun or show-off that the free state of Bavaria never really acnowledged the German constitution (so we agreed it to be the legal base for all law in Germany) But do not underestimated the coherence forces among Germans. Maybe because we have been seperated for so long before 1871 and than again from 1949-1989 the feeling of German unity is so strong. The only way how Germany could really dissolve as a nation state would be a strong European federation where regions with similiar interest are experiencing closer bounds than within their own nation. But that is fiction for the next millenium, I suppose (even though I think it would be a good thing).
@ Joe: the problem for the German neo-nazis is, that they do not have such a charismatic leader like LePen or Haider. FRey is just an ugly behind the scene financer (without him the DVU would be dead within a second). Schörghuber, the only person who could have claimed that position, is no more so. Schill has lost even the smallest rest of reputation at the end of his time of being Senator in Hamurg (where he also demonstrated that talking the talk is unlike walking the walk when it comes to fighting crime) And if you look at those little "Spiessbuerger" at the lead of NPD and DVU in Saxony and Brandeburg: they maybe aible to get a few hands clapping on a lonely afternoon at a small rural town in a devasted area and even get some cheers of drunken followers. But they can not ignite others en masse, because they themselves do not even sparkle. Of ocurse, all this could change with a charismatic person. Hence I do not see a LePen-problem anywhere in GErmany without a LePen-like figure.

But on other question, guys: what about Russia? Yesterdays anouncements of Putin gave me the creeps. That was a big step backwards with regards to democracy? Is there a new totalitarian state in the forming at our EU eastern borders? Or are opposing democratic forces strong enough already in Russia? I wonder.....

Cheerio from the newborn Old Europe

The theory that Nazism fuels from poverty is as much bullshit as the theory that other forms of terrorism in other countries fuel from poverty. Most Nazi leaders have an income. The same can be said about the newer leftist forms of Antiimperialism. On the other hand, one can be unemployed and still be an individualist.

At the core of the current problem is the situation that the Schröder regime masks its inability to deal with the rise of poverty by promoting collectivism. Over the last years this country was flooded with Presidential speeches how human dignity would derive from labor only, and how egoism was despicable and unemployment a humiliation. Schröder has bragged how his tiny personal career would not matter for the higher noble purpose of creating a sink-or-swim society that denies the human right to be lazy. And such as he throws his ego into the dust to worship the collective, the mass demonstrations against the current welfare cuts do exactly the same only with an anticapitalist tune. But the refrain is identical - a collectivist ideology of salvation through labor that is haunting us since the Dark Ages. But still most Americans I've talked to mistake the slogan on the gates of Auschwitz as an empty mockery, rather than recognizing it as the bottomline of a longterm labor market policy modeled on a secular version of the doctrine of original sin.

If there is any "root cause" here, then I'd say it is the fact that the current welfare state is like the Titanic - it lacks the necessary lifeboat space for everyone and suffers the failure that it requires its clients to seek employment. And now this ship is heading towards the icefield of regime changes in the Islamic states that have become key accounts to Europes export-based economies. I hope we'll get it through without all hell breaking loose.

@ Pat:

I'm most certainly not influenced by NPD propaganda. Living in Hamburg, I'm influenced by reality. We have 15% immigrants here and the number keeps growing. The number of Black African immigrants has exploded in recent years. So has the crime rate involving foreigners. The case of a 19 year old Turk (living illegally in Germany) pushing a young woman in front of a train is just the latest in years of violent crimes including people being robbed, stabbed, or even shot to death - some of which happened in my former school, close to my home or involving people I personally know. Policemen and -women being assaulted and wounded by African asylum seekers, the list goes on and on. Also, I have seen enough black drug dealers myself, I don't need the NPD to tell me about them. There are parts of the city I'd rather not go. To quote Henning Voscherau, "Ich sage nicht, das Boot ist voll. Aber in Wilhelmsburg ist es voll."

As far as the actions of major political parties are concerned, I know that the CSU (and CDU) has spoken out in favour of limiting the number of new immigrants. However, while even Otto Schily said that of all asylum applications being made, > 95% aren't valid, I haven't seen a single attempt at actually forcing all of those already here whose applications were denied in the last decade to ever leave Germany again. Only a tiny percentage of them are expelled - for all others, the keywords are: "Europäischer Gerichtshof für Menschenrechte", "Duldung" and finally "Familiennachzug". And guess who has to pay for their presence? But let's not talk about all that because we should be "tolerant", right? Hey, we're not "racist", we've "learned our lesson"!

Also note that I wrote that the NPD, DVU etc. were useful as a political counterweight. I didn't write they were electable alternatives. They're not. Their slogans are overly simplistic and their political work is unprofessional. I agree with you on that. Not to even mention that, personally, I disagree with a lot of their political positions and I'd never vote for a party whose followers honestly believe that the root of all evil is the "Jewish world conspiracy". I do think, however, that the danger to today's democracy is not posed by "right-wing extremists" (did you notice how right-wing politicians are always branded "extremists" or "radicals" while the same is rarely said of the left?). In a spectrum that has room for PDS, Grüne, Regenbogen (Hamburg), the soon-to-be-founded new left "Alternative" and outside organizations such as Attac, I don't really mind seeing someone like the NPD take its part. The discourse of diverse opinions is what keeps a democracy healthy, not one-sidedly oppressing them and keeping people from politically voicing their frustration.

@ps

i think that some of your points are a bit simplistic at best. for example: there must be enough drug dealers in Hamburg who are *not* black, don't you think? and i am sure a lot of them are German as well. further: what does the fact, that an obviously crazy person wanted to push someone in front of a train, have to do with his ethnic roots? Or do you claim that Robert Steinhäuser killed his fellow pupils in Erfurt because he was German (and not because he was just nuts, which is a "quality" mostly detached from any race or ethnic heritage)

nonetheless i would agree in so far to your points, as that the problems of immigration and asylum policy are not sufficiently discussed in public -- and that people, especially the left, are dealing with it in a hypocritical fashion. among most of my friends for example, it is widely accepted that germany should be a "muliti-cultural" society, and that assimilation is a good thing -- of course, when it comes to bringing their kids to school they spend close attention to the fact that the rate of foreigners must not be "too high"... IAW "kebap stand on the corner is cool, but too many foreigners in my kids class... i don't know.."

incidentally i came across an article in todays FAZ, which addresses some of these issues: according to a social scientist "there is no other country than Germany" (in the world? in the EU?) "in which the quota of childless families and women is equally low". The faction of 20 to 40 year olds -- which is very important for economical growth -- is decreasing by 300.000 each year. So we could say, that we are the origin of our own problem (by not creating sufficent offspring). yet, so FAZ continues, increased immigration doesn't solve the problem (at least the economical one), since each immigrant costs the public 2000 Euro/year. In a city like Hannover up to 40 per cent of the population on social welfare are of non-German origin. "The Number of native Germans is decreasing through the lack of newborns while the number of citizens of foreign origin is increasing through a surplus of births"

They also mention that immigration statistics are usually tampered with (the "official" number is 280.000/year) while many are not taken into consideration because they are jobless and fall through statistical cracks. They say 80 per cent of new immigrants/year do not have a job and do form a considerable burden on the welfare system (again, i am just passing along what FAZ is reporting which might not necessarily represent my own view).

i personally have no solution to this problem. i don't think, though, that "shutting our borders" will have us be better off in the future, which is essentially what right wing parties are calling for. i wonder sometimes if the strict separation into "Germans" and "non-Germans" is not the problem. it is basically still a "blood" based ethnic model (rather than a "territorial" based one as we have it in the US -- you are US citizen when born on US soil, no matter which blood you carry), and seems to me a bit overcome. but of course, changing this would be putting oil on the fire for the far right.

tn wrote: "i think that some of your points are a bit simplistic at best. for example: there must be enough drug dealers in Hamburg who are *not* black, don't you think? and i am sure a lot of them are German as well. further: what does the fact, that an obviously crazy person wanted to push someone in front of a train, have to do with his ethnic roots? Or do you claim that Robert Steinhäuser killed his fellow pupils in Erfurt because he was German (and not because he was just nuts, which is a "quality" mostly detached from any race or ethnic heritage)".

You sound exactly like I did until I got my lips cut and nose broken by a gang of Turks outside a discotheque 4 weeks back. And this was in MUNICH. I don't even want to know how it is in Berlin or Hamburg. Really, I hate to say it, but "ps" is simply right - it's reality. Reality is ugly and can bring up some perspectives within you you don't want to see yourself. At the same time, I would neither ever vote for the NPD or the likes for the same reasons ps mentioned, but you are missing the point here tn: I don't think ps connects this to the actual "ethnic" background and neither do I. This is what the NPD does. The point is that those kind of guys who mess around here on our, MY costs, would be the same kinds of asshats in their own countries - only that we let them in here, let them mess around, let ourselves get screwed up cause other than them, the normal German citizen does not go with either the inspiration nor the expectation to see a fist or knife fight. Never mind our weapon laws here either. The "bad guys" don't even give a fuck about while you as the honest citizen will end up screwed as the result.
And don't tell me about police. The moment you face those mad-men who won't even know about a "fair" fight, police won't be there, is just you and them, and then you in the hospital. The only thing police COULD be usefull is afterwards to go after them, but usually what they achieve there is BULL. And what do you think when I tell you the following now: My sister's husband is in the medical emergency service and so he also knows some police-men from that rather small town up in the Oberpfalz. Was quite a nice town. But since some years, there is a new settlement where plenty of russian asylum guys went in. Now every other weekend there is a fight involving them in one of the three discotheques of that town.
What the fuck? And tell you what the police guys he knows told him? They are not really keen on facing those guys themselves. Allright.

If you get into trouble with a German, you can talk most of the time and get along. But those guys, they get pleasure out of beating you up, they are actually looking for it. Didn't surprise me a bit to hear of the 19 year old who pushed that women in front of the train. It's the same like with Islamism or the Muslim world. Sorry dudes, but most of the terrorists are Muslims. Sorry guys, but most of the severe crimes are done by people who should have no right to be here in the first place.

We let every asshole into our country, have a damn hard time getting them out again, and then politicians wonder about racism. Try that bull in America. Try to get in there legally without anything to offer, even without being able to hold your own, and then go around beating people up. Asuming you would get in there in the first place, you'll either end up with a bullet in your head or outside the country faster than you can say "bye".

And only because my country is incapable of exercising common sense, I will not force myself into borders of when and where to go, what to say etc. Tell you, next time, I will carry a gas-arm, shoot those suckers in their face and either move along or kiss them some good-byes, depending on my mood. Got that open bill there in the back of my mind, you know.

Regards
Alex

The greatest lie ever sold by the left was that the NAZIs were right wing!

I allways try to expand NAZI out to National-Socialist you guys should too.

Hitler may of lost the war, but sometimes I think he got a lot of the ideas implemented, just with an imaginary Europeon volk...

@Alex

You sound exactly like I did until I got my lips cut and nose broken by a gang of Turks outside a discotheque 4 weeks back. And this was in MUNICH. I don't even want to know how it is in Berlin or Hamburg. Really, I hate to say it, but "ps" is simply right - it's reality. Reality is ugly and can bring up some perspectives within you you don't want to see yourself. At the same time, I would neither ever vote for the NPD or the likes for the same reasons ps mentioned, but you are missing the point here tn: I don't think ps connects this to the actual "ethnic" background and neither do I.

sorry to hear that. even though, no need to patronize me.

then: read the entire post, before telling me "that i missed the point": i did NOT deny that German immigration policy needs a closer look. i said: it is not discussed enough in public and a lot of people who are unanimously pro immigration are acting like hypocrits, especially when it comes to their own children affected by the repercussions. i passed along statistics, supporting the notion that all this is severely out of whack, published in yesterday's FAZ.

the thing against ps was that he made an argument by pointing out that the guy who wanted to push that woman in front of the subway was a turk. so how does he "not connect this to the actual ethnic background", if i may ask you? it was important to him to point out that this guy was obviously not German. conclusion: Germans don't do such things, only immigrants. it was equally important to him to connect the word "drug dealer" with the word "black", something which would not fly for a second in the US. i am not denying that there are no black drug dealers, let alone denying that the crime rate among immigrants is higher than among "ordinary" Germans. i still think it's too simplistic. last time i have been beaten up it was by a blond white trash dude who was very German. as we've seen in the past, good, ordinary Germans have always been pleasent to foreigners, especially Jews. and these days they are especially "good" to Americans, which this forum never ceases to point out.

We let every asshole into our country, have a damn hard time getting them out again, and then politicians wonder about racism. Try that bull in America. Try to get in there legally without anything to offer, even without being able to hold your own, and then go around beating people up. Asuming you would get in there in the first place, you'll either end up with a bullet in your head or outside the country faster than you can say "bye".

glad you mention the US. as you know anyone who is born on US soil is automatically a US citizen (jus soli rule, Fourteenth Ammendment of the Constitution), no matter which race, religion or ethnic background their parents. you may even become a US citizen when you are a child of illegal aliens, as long as you are within US territory at the time of your birth. consequently there is no such thing as an internal "American" or "non-American" discussion, or the distinction into "ordinary" and "unordinary" Americans which might even be remotely connected to heritage of blood, skin color or ethnic looks, because potentially anyone, whether black, brown, yellow or green, or whether pushing someone in front of a subway or not (which actually happened at least 3 times while i was living in New York) could be having an American passport.

now Germany has been recently making a step in that very direction (away from the old jus sangui rule which defines a citizen by his blood line so to say), so in the future a guy who pushes someone in front of a subway and looks like a turk might actually be a German. all you can then reside to is argument on a "racial" basis. the NPD, even though you don't vote them, will be happy to hear that.

@ Alex N.

Sorry to hear what happened to you. It's sad but also very telling of the current situation in Germany. I second the suggestion to be careful when thinking of "retaliating" against attackers because you wouldn't get much support from the justice system should the whole thing end up in the courts. That aside, I agree with most of what you wrote.

@ tn

Your implication that the Turk who nearly killed a woman by pushing her towards a subway train was a (rare?) lunatic who could have had any nationality doesn't match the picture I get from the media coverage. (And by the way, I'm glad it's only knowledge through the media, because I could have been there at that train station too, you know.) What apparently happened was that this guy (who was on a night out with his buddies, not "running amok") had accidentally been pushed by a passenger rushing to reach the train. This for some reason made him so upset that he followed that passenger and tried to grab him. When this failed due to the train doors already closing, he vented his frustration by attacking the next person who came along which happened to be said woman.

I hate to tell you, but this sounds oh so familiar to me. This is a pattern I've seen, heard and read about it time and again. Guys of that sort seem to be full of aggressions, just waiting to turn them against other people using the misguided belief or pretext of claiming they've been "disrespected". The victims are often people randomly standing around or passing by, targeted because they "looked at them funny", because they "said something", because they just happened to be there, because of nothing. Or beating up bus drivers who dared to ask for their tickets. Or stabbing unsuspecting partygoers, causing one man to lose an eye. Why? Because of boredom, because of fun, because they can, because they have little to fear from the police or the German court system which will treat them as the "real victims" and which will do everything to avoid the impression of being "fremdenfeindlich". Who are "guys of that sort"? A certain group of male 12-35 year old people often referred to as "Südländer" - Turks, Kurds, Albanians, etc. At least here in Hamburg, I almost never hear about any of these crimes being committed by Germans. These are no Nazis. This is no "rechte Gewalt". People should open their eyes.

Also, even if you prefer to disregard the "ethnic background" in all of this, I tell you this: even if Germans behaved just as criminally as the above people, we don't need to *import* even more friggin' crime! A German whose family has lived here for centuries already has no moral right to commit crimes in this country, but if there is a group of people who has _even less_ of a right to do so it's foreigners who have only been here for a couple of decades, some significantly less, many of which even receive payments from the welfare state. They're *guests* here! Hell, if you're a guest, behave like one! If during a stormy night, I come to your house and ask for shelter, you, being a good man, let me in and once I'm in, I start sh--ting on your carpet and raping your daughter, would you not kick me out of your house immediately?

And that is exactly why I brought up the black drug dealers. The Gutmenschen would like to make us believe that they don't even exist. Asylum seekers being drug dealers? What a populist Nazi cliché! Tell you what. It's not. I've seen them. All that Schill accomplished was forcing them from train stations in the inner city to the outskirts where they changed to dealing in the trains themselves. The point is not there are no non-black drug dealers. The point is that the people I talk about come here as "refugees", claiming to be "persecuted", claiming to be from, say, Burkina Faso (while not even being able to name its capital when asked), then as soon as they're in, they turn out to be criminals. Again, I ask you, if you were really persecuted, if your life was really in danger and some country gave you shelter, would you not be grateful and try to avoid causing harm to that country or its citizens? If you were a real refugee, you'd probably do that. But these guys are not real refugees. And let's face it, even the left-wing politicians know it. For whatever perverted reason, they just won't admit it, instead talking of "humanitarian duties" and shouting down all dissenting opinions with accusations of "racism".

ps wrote: "I hate to tell you, but this sounds oh so familiar to me. This is a pattern I've seen, heard and read about it time and again. Guys of that sort seem to be full of aggressions, just waiting to turn them against other people using the misguided belief or pretext of claiming they've been "disrespected". "

Exactly. You also must not tell them that there is a line when you are already waiting for your turn for some minutes to get your jacket. Then it will be "You shit-Germans don't tell me anything!"...humm, now WHO is the racist and judges by ethnical background? Why is he here in the first place if he doesn't like them "Scheiss Deutsche"?

ps wrote further: "Also, even if you prefer to disregard the "ethnic background" in all of this, I tell you this: even if Germans behaved just as criminally as the above people, we don't need to *import* even more friggin' crime!"

That's exactly my point.

Regards
Alex

Could somebody please distinguish the NPD "no blood for oil" from the left wingers' "no blood for oil" that makes NPD right wing? The formation of the NPD and its success in the upcoming election will show that the CSU/CDU have not been properly attending their base on the right and the frustration results in a siphoning of votes into idiotic pseudo-right parties like NPD.


Attention all Germans!!!

I am an American of German blood and heritage and i can only speak my mind. As a political science major, a city boy, and a die-hard German American I have come to one conclusion: Multiculturalism is not a good thing and it will never work. I have lived in 3 major cities with very large minority populations, almost to the point of where they are no longer minorities (Cincinnati is about 40% black.) I truly believe in my heart that non-whites see me in the same distaste as i see them. I have been called racial slurs by blacks, polynesians, and mexicans. I have been asualted by blacks and crimes against my family have all been from minorities (ie theft, assault, and robbery). Even after all they have done to make me hate them, i don't, but i don't want to add full to the fire by allowing more immigrants in. All i can say to Germans is this: get your immigration policy under control or both you and your children will pay the price. The more colored faces i see, the more crime i see. Is that a coincidence or is there perhaps a correlation? without sounding too racist i'm just gonna use my brain and say that perhaps they are connected. there i said it, now i guess im a racist but atleast i can call it like i see it instead of continuing to lie to myself. I feel comfortable around whites, i have had little problems with whites, and i will make sure that my child goes to an almost all white school. if that makes me racist, so be it, but you would be a fool to think otherwise, though you might not be considered a racist. I don't hate non-whites, i just don't want to live next them, i want to be around people who share my culture. People do this all around the world, whether it be tribes in Africa, Kurds in the mid-east, or the basques in spain. People just want to be with their tribe but its only in Europe and America where it's seen as a bad thing to want to be with your people. I could go on for days about this and present facts and figures. instead i just wanted to speak my mind from experience, so from my heart, i wish there was a haven for Germans, or just whites (and i don't mean rich gated communities) where we could celebrate our culture and heritage without the threat of offending, but perhaps that is just a silly pipe dream. There is German pride world wide, so fight the good fight for our great culture.

ah jetzt wird hier zensiert. ja das spricht zweifellos für die objektivität des forums..in der tat..

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