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Ja und ? Was ist daran schlimm ? Es ist doch bekannt, dass das ehemalige irakische Regime solche Greueltaten verübt hat. Warum denn noch mehr zeigen ? Das sind doch alles alte Kamellen. Die US-Amerikaner dagegen, die als Befreier und als Vorbild einer zivilisierten Kultur auftreten wollen, geraten bei solchen Bilder direkt ins Fadenkreuz gewisser Medien. Hätte Bush senior mal direkt dafür gesorgt, das da unten Ruhe ist, hätte sicher einiges auch verhindert werden können. Aber aufgrund solcher Inkonsequenz mussten auch früher unschuldige Menschen leiden. Apropos "biased", vielleicht hilft es mal zu überlegen, welche Informationen die US Regierung gezielt zurückgehalten hat. Hauptsache, wir schüren die Angst. Was für ein Haufen Paranoiker.

It is a common practice to show your enemies in the worse possible light and your allies in the best possilbe light.

This is the same type of display one could have found in the USSR in the 60', 70's or 80's protraying America.

Jupp, womit wir dann wieder bei dem jedem Deutschen in die Wiege gelegten
Anti-US-Amerikanismus sind... Und solche Methodiken finden man natürlich auch nur in den bösen Staaten wie Deutschland, Frankreich und Russland. Die US-Amerikaner haben ja noch nieeee schwarz-weiss gemalt. Die waren natürlich immer ganz objektiv und haben ihre Landsleute nicht verulkt.

Wer Ironie findet, darf sich ein Eis kaufen.

@ jan-
If I translated your drivel properly, you seem to be saying that "So what? what's the big deal? We, they, everyone new about the mass graves and the existence of 1000's killed...it is old news"
and "...that the "consequence/in-action of the US' is what killed these people in the desert.
You pathetic fool. IF you are your german govt knew about these graves, why then would you shudder with fear at the concept of going to help the Iraqi's? Why can not germany even send 200 state financed painters to paint some schools in Iraq? It is the collective ideas of impotent imbeciles that formulates the ideology of your government in germany.
Why can't germany even send any special forces (do you have any?) to protect the UN mission in Baghdad?
Some how you think the french photo exhibit is correct in the way it is presented. If that is truly the case- you are a piece of human scum whose sense of history and what this planet is all about is so messed up that you should see a doctor.
I plan an having a photo exhibit of my own soon.
it will show 15,000 dead french elderly laid out in a temporary morgue after a warm spell that high taxes, welfare, and a "social system above all others" could not prevent.
Then I intend to put together an exhibit which shows german soldiers hiding like rabbits in their barracks in Kosovo when the bearded Albanians came into town to burn churches and kill Christians. Just do a search for "germans his like rabbits" and you will get 1000 hits.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/09/wkos09.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixworld.html
Then I will have a photo exhibit showing all the jihadist cowards who have come to germany, taken YOUR money, then educated for free by your
"universities", and then who plan on bombing the entire western world into subservience.
And then I will do a photo exhibit showing US men and woman training Afghani Olympic hopefuls, and then the Iraqi Olympic team members, and then I will show photos of 2 Afghan woman (for the fist time in history) attending the Olympic games with pride. The I will show a photo exhibit of Iraqi school children with new books and new classrooms studying for a better future.
And I'll let aszholes like you come up from behind and inhale the flatulence of those who actually better this planet you pathetic fool. You can sit and shout from under your little infantile welfare blanket created for you by the blood, money and sweat of a US troop presence in germany for 60 years. How is it that one person or an entire country for that matter is so god damn blind to historical facts and what the real world is actually like?
As they say "welfare kills brain cells, and promotes true intellectual impotence"
You could become a little poster boy for this philosphy.
Your mouth is as big as your manhood is small.

Joe posts:
"It is a common practice to show your enemies in the worse possible light and your allies in the best possilbe light.

This is the same type of display one could have found in the USSR in the 60', 70's or 80's protraying America."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

. . . and isn't that the point of David and Eric's blogsites?

What we expected and understood when coming from the Soviet Union of old . . . has been unexpected and puzzling from our "alleged" European forefathers and brother/ allies.

Tyranno

Lets not forget that this photo exhibit is coming from the country with the neanderthal magazine called Liberation who claimed in a New Years headline- "Bush, the man who ruined our year"
With all that was happening in france the last year, with all the deaths from heat, all the un-employment, ALL the strikes, gang rapes of 11 yr old girls happening each week, Le Pen getting 18% of the vote,crime rising to insane levels, chirac getting his asz kicked at the polls, bomb threats on the metro, a GDP that an ant colony could create, and a complete failure within ANY area that french "troops" are positioned in africa... then this is the best they can come up with?
There is nothing more important to these spoon-fed and arrogant priks to talk about?
Watch how quickly germany's new and convenient friend brings your entire continent further onto it's knees.
For a country which holds roughly 6 million in-dentured north african muslims in towering ghettos which ring it's cities, and give many suburbs the look and feel of a back alley in 6th century Cairo, and then bans an article of these peoples favorite clothing- you know you are dealing with a country whose collective IQ of it's entire population adds up to about 120 on any one's scale. I wonder if the small brained welfare sucking fools who may provide "support and staffing" for this exhibit will go on strike demaning lemonde breaks between photo showings?
Perhaps france will offer "two for the price of one" tickets for its entire muslim population in order to pacify them and re-direct their anger back out to the US. Ah, forget that- I think theyll put together a few street urchins to deliver the tickets directly to the suburban ghettos.
If youw ant a great visual of France-
check this link out-
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml

@Pato:

Du hast aber eine tolle Ausdrucksweise. Soll ich dich wirklich ernst nehmen ?

Ich habe den Herrn Schröder damals nicht gewählt. Ich wäre dafür gewesen Truppen in den Irak zu senden. (Wir haben auch eine Special Force, die hört auf den Namen KSK). Tja, leider ist Herr Schröder immer noch Bundeskanzler, wobei ich glücklicherweise davon ausgehe das er es bald gewesen ist. Und ich bin sicher nicht der einzigste, der so denkt. Schliesslich war die Wiederwahl Schröders nicht so eindeutig.

Meine Aussage ist auch eigentlich keine direkte Attacke. Wollte ja eigentlich nur ausdrücken, wie meiner Ansicht nach die Medien hier handeln. Das ich das gut heisse, hab ich nicht behauptet. Eher negativ. Ich erwähnte dann auch noch, das dies aber ein allgemeines Problem ist, egal welches Land man nun betrachten mag.

Wenn man nicht so gut deutsch kann und den Sinn nicht versteht, sollte man lieber die Klappe halten, lieber Pato, anstatt andere Leute zu beschimpfen. Aber wenn man vor dem Bildschirm hockt, kann man auch keine in die Fresse bekommen, nicht wahr ?

Jan,

Great post. Like your attitude. Does this make you feel better about the "relocation camps" or WWII.

Works for me. Seems everyone knew about these too. So old news both then and now.

You could just say......Well so what - Stuff
happnes No big deal

Am sure you have a march to go to today to stop the underminding of "social justice". Long live the welfare state. Who needs or wants freedom when the government will solve all your problems..

I know the Americans just need to get over this...

Could not agree with you more.

Jan,

To make one point clear. My comment was not directed at you. It was directed to the elites which infect all aspects of discord in Germany. Be they in the media, your universities or government of either party.

One way to make oneself feel better is to show how others are worse than you are.

This is the moral high ground which Germany wants to occupy.

@ jan
You will have to type in an international language for me to understand you.
It is YOUR GOVT who is doing the insulting in these modern times. You should direct your nonsense back to them. or simply wait a few years, then come back to this blog, and tell the world how you are doing with your new state-sponsored job as a kneepad wearing coffee-boy for for the local Immams in germany.
I know germans and germany VERY WELL, and I do not like what I see and hear, that is why I post on this great forum. You in gemrnay can continue to dream of selling nuke technology to Chian, and you can keep dreaming of closer business ties with Libya, and you can put your german nose even closer to the rear-ends of the iranian mullahs so as to profit financially, and see what "seat" that gets germany in this world.
I'll say it again- "If you people in france and germany continue your interference against the US as it deals with Iran's nuke ambitions, and you follow through with your dreams of arming China- You will open up a can-of-whoop-ass served to you by the US like you have never seen before".

Jan, welcome to the jo/unwichtig/mathesar group.


... and isn't that the point of David and Eric's blogsites?

David's and Eric's blogs are not about enemies and friends. They are about lies and distortions.

So the great and new Iraqi soccer team beats the great australians in football 1-0.
And the ex-Iraqi football coach who is german who fled Iraq in fear, must now wonder how all this is happening....
"it can't be" he shouts.
"the damn Yanks can't coach and don't know football!"

Jan:

Your 'Ja und?' has the stench of a man who knows nothing of how real even feel - how they can hurt the PEOPLE that the left professes to protect.

Of course, the BRD does nothing to help keep the events in the photo on the right from happening, so it has to provide itself with some sort of overall moral good to latch onto, by siezing on the events in the photo on the left, and criticizing it.

Jan, the dreaded, vulgar VS has spent half a century, and *trillions* of dollars securing you well being. The least you can do is to temper your criticisms with some thought. If you can't do that, the smart thing for the 'beggar to do is to not be a chooser', and simply shut up.

The BRD, apart from some involvement in aid here and there, and in the former Yugoslavia, which is well below the abilities of a nation like Germany.
They are not involved in much of anything - where do they get the moral authority to chriticize ANYONE who is? Have they really done anything about malaria, AIDS, TB?

Even to nations, opinions alone are like noses. Everybody has one. So what. What are they willing to DO about it?

Jan, welcome to the jo/unwichtig/mathesar group.

... and isn't that the point of David and Eric's blogsites?

David's and Eric's blogs are not about enemies and friends. They are about lies and distortions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok Jan, I'll bite. Which is the "lie?" and which are the "distortions?"

Tyranno

Ja und ? Was ist daran schlimm?

You know, Jan, hearing such sentiments in German has a... tendency... to remind one of unpleasant historical incidents during which many people said just such things. "Who gives a shit?" is not a sentiment any German has any right to express about mass murder of this kind.

(And if you are not German, that doesn't let you off the hook. Any human being who says such a thing when confronted with such sights is no better than a ghoul.)

Everybody who would like to see "Saddam" torture, should use the following link for seeing some drawings, drawn out of the memory of the suvivors.

Warning: Horrible !!! (Parental Advisory; Explicit Content)

http://iraqcenter.com/bedaye/halat/archive_7/1.jpg

You can see more pictures if you replace the last number "1", for first picture, with "2", "3", e.g. http://iraqcenter.com/bedaye/halat/archive_7/2.jpg

There are 15 pictures of torture methods available. Most of them are unknown to the German public.

I recommend also the collection of life under Saddam on the site: http://iraqiholocaust.blogspot.com/.

@ Jan,

die Fotos von Saddam's Folter sind so schlimm, dass sie gar nicht einer breiten Öffentlichkeit gezweigt werden können, ohne verstörend zu wirken. Nicht nur Ignoranz führt zu so einem Verhalten, sondern auch die Tatsache, dass die Bilder zu schrecklich für die breite Masse ist, um mit ihnen um zugehen. Dagegen sind die Bilder von Lynch "harmlos" !!!

Bestes Beispiel ist Muqtada al-Sadr: Der Mann wurde vom Geheimdienst abgeholt, sein Vater wurde ermordet, indem man Nägel in seinen Kopf schlug etc. Menschen, hier und dort, sind nicht nur Araber, Iraker, Schiiten, Sunniten etc. also Mitglied einer Gruppe, sondern auch Ergebnis von Schicksalen, was im Irak mit Tragödien gleichkommt. Das ist auch ein Teil der gewaltbereiten Anhängerschaft, die nicht nur aus Baathisten (Folterern) besteht, sondern auch aus den Gefolterten. Wer sich den Input an Gewalt in den letzten 35 Jahren angesehen hat, den wundert heute gar nichts mehr und über die US-Folter von Abu Ghreib kann ich nur lachen. Nicht über die Opfer, sondern über unsere "Freunde", selbsternannten Menschenrechtsanwälte und Verteiger des irakischen Vokes/ arabischen Sache / islamische Gemeinde (alles austauschbare Begriffe)

Maybe you should spend less time copying other blogs and start your own investigation about Perpignan?
You can post thousands od photos they are not showing. WHAT they show is important. And they DO show photos of the mass graves.

Sorry to incommodate you with the official festival announcement:

http://www.visapourlimage.com/anglais/expos5.php3

Geert van Kesteren / Focus / Cosmos
Iraq
'Why Mister, why?' - the year America occupied Iraq.
The situation in Iraq following the declaration of 'mission accomplished' represented a culture clash of rare proportions. Geert van Kesteren was witness to what went wrong. He saw clouds of sadness coming from the mass graves created by the Saddam regime; and Shi'ites enjoying their awakening freedom. He saw the occupying force of an arrogant world power. Embedded with US troops, he witnessed disgraceful raids on Iraqi citizens. Citizens had hoped for a better, non-violent, future, but their hopes were dashed. In a clear photojournalistic way, Geert van Kesteren outlines why it will take a long time before the Iraqi people can enjoy a semblance of peace.

Sorry, for some reason my post came up without a name

Ich denke, Joe hat es klasse auf den Punkt gebracht: "One way to make oneself feel better is to show how others are worse than you are" Das trifft auf Deutschland sehr gut zu. Hier herrscht eine aus meiner Sicht sehr negative Stimmung und Orientierungslosigkeit. Es ist typisch deutsch, andauernd zu jammern und sich zu bedauern ,wie schlecht es einem doch geht. Da stimmt was hier nicht.
@jaed: Es war ironisch gemeint. Ohne jeden Zweifel kann man die Bilder von England und die Folterbilder während Saddams Regime nicht vergleichen. England war/ist ein Ausnahmefall, der von den Medien hier ein gefundenes Fressen ist. Die Folterbilder dagegen waren zu Saddams Zeiten grauenhafter Alltag. Und viele schliessen davor die Augen, bzw. erfahren nichts davon, weil es für die Medien hier keinen Wert hat (so traurig es auch ist). Das ist unsere Lüge. Ist aber alles leider nicht so rübergekommen, wie ich es eigentlich meinte.
Was mich aber hier nervt, ist das hier immer auf die deutsche Vergangenheit angespielt wird. Es ist mir vollkommen klar, das die Zeit des 2. Weltkriegs das dunkelste Kapitel in der deutschen Geschichte ist. Was soll man als Mensch der jüngeren Generation machen, der diese Ereignisse nur noch aus Geschichtsbüchern oder von Erzählungen kennt ? Einem alten scheiss Nazi aufs Grab pinkeln. Wir können nur weiter wachsam sein. Es ist traurig zu sehen, wenn deutsche Jugendliche dann aber in US-amerikanischen als Hitler´s Kinder beschimpft werden. Ich weiss nicht, wie verzerrt wir in euren Medien dargestellt werden. Unvoreingenommen wird das auch nicht sein.
Schön, das ich hier gleich in Gruppe mit Mathesar und Unwichtig eingeteilt wurde. Das ist bestimmt die "Axis of Evil" dieses Blogs. ;)

Jan:
Thanks for making a point of letting me know about the sarcasm which can get easily lost on those of us like me who really have a very poor grip on our German.

As for calling germans nazis, we do no such thing here to Germans here in the United States. I haven't heard it from anyone in years. And of those I have, they are from the World War 2 generation that used 'nazi' as a common curse.

I live in a city where there are Germans new immigrants/temporary residents/ spouses, etc. Ironically, they feel welcome enough to air their feelings about the U.S., which is often extremely hostile to this counrty, but less so than it would be in Germany.

Here, they can see that we are not drooling beasts. They hear the very same slant in the press as they would back n\home, but a rebuttal is also available.

@ transatlantiker,

Nice find. So they will have one exhibit with actual pics of mass graves...I wonder if those pictures will be displayed as prominently as the Abu Ghraib pics (the "most important pictures of the year" remember)...don't hold your breath! And did you notice text that accompanied the exhibit?

He saw the occupying force of an arrogant world power. Embedded with US troops, he witnessed disgraceful raids on Iraqi citizens. Citizens had hoped for a better, non-violent, future, but their hopes were dashed. In a clear photojournalistic way, Geert van Kesteren outlines why it will take a long time before the Iraqi people can enjoy a semblance of peace.

The focus is not on Saddam's regime or its atrocities. They simply say in one line that the Saddam regime "created" the graves...(gee I wonder how that happened). It is really more about describing sadness since the "arrogant occupying" power came to town.

@ transatlantiker

showing just one side of the picture doesn't justify the hiding of other pictures. ( You didn't go to my recommended links, I gave here).

Showing mass graves is one side, okay. But this is not the whole pictuers. (Nazis had also gas chambers and "Einsatzgruppen" in Russia shooting people like here in south Iraq). The Manufacture of death had more faces than this one, and the mass graves aren't the ugliest, just the imagination of the last minutes of the death. Believe me, tortured people were jealous of the dead people. And after all, here in Germany the intent to cover this up is missing. I often find people asking me: Was Saddam that evil ? -No, he was as evil that fantasy can't imagine. Well, this question is out of the frame because everyone knows this who just took a glimpse of Saddam's Iraq.

I can count some books about Modern Iraq which aren't translated into German because all translators are busy with Michael Moore new books and the audience doesn't want it.

Maybe the covering up of the US Press is not systemtatic or so, but until the trial of Saddam there will be no final view on Saddam's Iraq. The German Press is busy with covering up the "resistance" which is by all odds just a minority of the Iraqi people, while the majority was victim of the practices of torture and so on.

I've got a relative in Baghdad telling me that every five minutes you see in Iraq an amputed man who lost his limbs either by war or torture or by other causes. I told him they are rarely seen on T.V. here. So the press ignores that masses of disabled persons for searching al-Jazeera-like masked, coward men with a Ak-47 telling what the audience likes to hear.

Maybe the German Press took the glasses filtering all colours of the World except Blue, White and Red, so they can watch out for Americans !

@ray
thanks for the great posts over the last few days. Thanks also for putting them up on this great blog and giving all of us who care a chance to present thoughts on the subject.
It should surprise noone that the reason the infantile french priks are promoting their own delushional perspective on world events is simply in order to try to get the rest of the world to toe-the-line of the failed french society. There is not one soul in the US who will forget this attempt in a modern day france to wipe it's own fetid arse with the face of the US. It's really pretty cool overall though, for with each attempt at defelecting their own pathetic lives away from themselves, they dig themselves even deeper into the category of an absofuckinglutley worthless society and culture which knows no home, and is embraced by nobody except within the slums of north africa, cote'd azur or haiti.
Paris began to stroke the prostrates of the arabs once it's failed imperia attempt to recapture the suez canal was thwarted by the US. Even though they were an enormous supplier of arms to Israel at that time in the 50's (soley to give an impresion of freindship, and to TRY to convey the impression of NOT killing and herding the jews with their nazi brethren swine under the vichy cowards) once they failed with Nassar and then algeria screamed and fought for independence, france began to plant kisses on the arses of the arab world in another one of the famous failed french "charm campaigns"
If that were the extent of MY existence, I guess I would attempt to szhit on those whom I envy, though it really isn't part of my culture.
I am wondering if they will include any photos from the heroic bombing of the jewish senior citizen center which brought hot meals to the elderly but was torched, defaced, and destroyed in Paris just yesterday?
The french have an ad in the US which attempts to lure americans to paris that says "Let's fall in love again". These are a people and a culture who are truely out of their damn minds. I mean- who are they trying to fool with this szhitlaced nonsense? It is amazing to watch a country attempt to shine the image of itself by creating these photo exhibits for self-administered psycho therapy as the whole world watches.

....as the strangulation of al sadr's dusty followers, along with their iranian agents, continues in Najaf, this quote from the guardian-
"Forty six people were injured and 11 killed in the past two days of fighting, the director of Najaf's hospital, Falah Almahana, said yesterday.
A short stroll from his office was the evidence. The newly dead were stored in a makeshift truck, next to a German refrigerating unit that did not work. In it, the bodies were too numerous to count."
Please tell me the germans are not going to now send in a service crew to repair it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1287754,00.html
During the Falklands, the Argentinian Exocets didn’t work with the FRENCH Super Etendardes, so the FRENCH sent out technicians to fix the missiles and thus helped kill British navy personel and others. And this is now germany's new "ally"? the same country which provided serbian generals with Nato war plans, and the same french freaks who have Milosovich tucked away under the seam of chirac's dress?
I have sent out these pics to the french to see if they will include them in the glorious festival mentined here that shows the art the french admire-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2703433.stm
Are there any germans who really are embracing this new relationship to france? comments?

Twenty years from now Liberal Progressives will elect Lynndie Englund as candidate for US President on the basis of her war hero crimes and her platform will be based only on her Iraq actions.

yeah, and her desert-worn panties will be selling on e-bay for big buck$, and worn on the head of an aged and still prancing but very lonely michael moore.

A couple of readers have pointed out that one exhibit in Perpignan will be including photos from the killing fields of Iraq. They make it sound like there will be just as many photos on this as on Abu Ghraib and like they will be similarly treated. So was I wrong to write that the Visa pour l'image photojournalism festival will not be showing photos of Saddam Hussein's crimes?

Technically, perhaps, it would seem that way at first. But after examining the evidence…

…I stand by my story.

Let me explain why.

@ Syn

Good one! England will have two camps. Prison Guards for the Lyndie, who claim that she was following specific orders when she took Abduhl for a walk on the leash.....and Prison Guards for the Truth, who claim that she got her willies off by laughing at Iraqi johnsons.

Let us imagine that there is a company with a reputation for racism; its members are said to be condescending towards blacks (or Slavs or whatever), they use the N-word, etc. And that, revolted by what they see, a handful of indignant blokes decide to devote a blog to watch that company.

One day, somebody comes out of the blue, "Hey, you guys screwed up royally. Guess what? The company has a black board member! So there!"

Should we just shut up, shut down (the weblog), admit to our failings, say we were wrong all along, and issue an apology to the company's CEO?

Or should we do a little investigating? Into the reality of the matter. Should we trust our instincts or should we let the accuser's mockery shut our mouths and make us shut down our computer terminals?

We decide to trust our initial instincts. We discover it's true that there is a black member on the board at the company and that he has a company car.

Should we just shut up from then on? What if we go to the headquarters and looking him up, we discover we can't find him. After making inquiries, it turns out , say, that he has only a closet-sized office, an office that is in the basement, and that he rarely shows up at the headquarters.

Well, if that were the case, I would say we were right on the mark all along. Our attacker says we should own up to our failings, that we have no more credibility because we didn't discover the black man's office before starting the blog. We reply that, when the media trumpets the white CEOs all the time, never mentioning the black man (and no wonder), and when the lone black man's office is in the basement, we figure that the black man's presence isn't that important as both the company and our attacker would make it look like.

I would say it is pretty clear that the black man is little else but a token board member. And that the evidence bears me out.

Our attacker says "screw the evidence! You were wrong, and your only option from now on is to shut up!" And from then on, he foregoes intellectual give-and-take arguments to castigate, ridicule, mock, and otherwise attack our character(s). (I am tempted to add "in the best French tradition". Better not.)

I would tell the attacker that I stand by my story.
I did so before and I do so now.

Hi there, I was at the exhibition in Perpignan where they did show the horific evidence of the crimes of the Saddam regime in that show. Regarding the occupation of Iraq by the US I would like to ask you one thing; The USA, the democratic world power, did not bring his own (democratic) values to Iraq and ignores the values of the Iraqis. (proven in the Abu Ghraib photos) Do you think they have the right to do this, because Saddam was worse? Or do you think men are all equel where-ever and who-ever you are? cheeers H

As I already have said, I came to the conclusion, after careful examination of the evidence, that everything pointed towards the (very few) mass graves photos that would be displayed serving only as "token" items and that on the whole, the festival would be heavily anti-American.

The best way to find out, I figured, was to go see for myself. So I filled 'er up, got behind the wheel, and drove to Perpignan. There I walked around the city, visiting the various places set up to welcome the best news photos of the year. I do not know what festival Henk visited, because I saw no more than four photos — four! — of Saddam's killing fields.

To make a long story short, my worst suspicions were confirmed


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