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Wow... Was für ein Sieg... Solange der Bush dann doch nicht gewinnt... (Ich bin kein Antiamerikaner)

I guess that makes ZDF what Al Gore called "Digital Brownshirts". When a response doesnt fit their preconcieved notions, they delter them!
They'll publish any lie that fits their mood when it comes to the U.S., and they'll omit seminal information relating to a story when it suits their editorial line. They seem to have an ego fit for a king. In journalism that isn't just deadly, it's unprofessional - in fact it's the *antithesis* of journalism!

Why don't they do the logical, somewhat 'old-fashioned' thing, and let the -facts-, the complete facts (not th ones filtered through their anger) about the U.S. inform their editorial policy?

You guys are priceless.

I'm glad germany, too, has a world-class paranoid loonie team on par with LGF and FR.

m.

OT: Can someone tell me what good your heads of your countries are good for?

The Iranians have presented a list of demands to their European enablers that not only reveals the true intentions of the mullahcracy but the absolute uselessness of EU leadership. Britain and other EU nations were "stunned" to receive demands not just for dual-use nuclear technology, but for the delivery of weapons to the Iranian mullahs and a defense pact against Israel:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002225.php

Ich glaube zwar nicht, dass tatsächlich 67% der deutschen Bevölkerung Bush wählen würde - wenn das ZDF Davids Lesern aber vorwirft, das Ergebnis ihrer Online-Abstimmung durch wiederholtes Abstimmen zu verfälschen, sollen sie das beweisen - am besten anhand der Accesslogs.
Aber eigentlich sind Online-Abstimmungen eh blöd und unrepräsentativ. Davids Hauptverdienst ist, dass er sich die Zeit nimmt, Zeitungsartikel z.B. im Spiegel zu lesen und auseinanderzunehmen. Ich selbst lese diese Bild-Zeitung für halbgebildete Linksreaktionäre sehr selten (allzu schnell kommt mir dabei das Kotzen), und kaufen tu ich das Ding schon gar nicht. Um so bewundernswerter, dass wenigstens einer diese Drecksarbeit macht. Respekt!

http://www.cpod.ubc.ca/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewItem&itemID=3732


August 10, 2004
In Germany, Kerry Would Get Massive Win

(CPOD) Aug. 10, 2004 – If they could participate in the United States presidential election, a large number of Germans would choose John Kerry, according to a poll released by ARD in newscast Tagesschau. 80 per cent of respondents say they would vote for the Democratic nominee.

Republican incumbent George W. Bush garners the support of eight per cent of respondents.

In late 2002, Germany’s government decided not to back an eventual military operation in Iraq. Voting intention polls showed a surge in support for the ruling Social Democratic Party (SPD) after chancellor Gerhard Schroeder refused to back any invasion without the backing of the United Nations (UN).

Polling Data

If you could vote in the U.S. presidential election, which candidate would you vote for?

John Kerry (D)
80%

George W. Bush (R)
8%


Source: ARD / Tagesschau
Methodology: Telephone interviews to 1,000 German adults, conducted on Aug. 3 and Aug. 4, 2004. Margin of error is 3.1 per cent.


I found this to be interesting. First it does point to the fact that anything that is negative about President Bush gets much wider publication than anything that is positive.

Second. I would expect the average German to be a Kerry voter. I base this on the fact that the majority of Germans appear to want to transfer responsiblity for their personal lives to someone else. They embrace BIG GOVERNMENT telling them how to live. Nothing like some new law and more talk to make things better.

The Germans also have a recent track record of picking real leaders. This can be seen by the current government in Berlin.

With the combined efforts of the German elites, in government, the media and academia, I still find the polling numbers for Kerry to be a bit disappointing. I would as I am sure these elites will too feel they must do more to trash President Bush.

I for one am beginning to see a bit of a silver linning in a Kerry win. Part of what Kerry is trying to sell the American people is he will be able to get more allies to support the efforts in Iraq. This has to mean france and Germany. The reason is when you link all the other comments he has made. So a Kerry win will mean time for france and Germany to join the party in the sand box.

Of course, I for one am not holding my breath waiting for German boots to be on the ground in Iraq in any numbers if at all.

So failing to get troops from france and Germany what will Kerry then tell the American people. I am not sure. Of course, it is possible that the American people might just to come to the realization that neither fracne or Germany are really allies of the US after all. This will give more engery to the efforts to get the US out of central Europe and out of NATO.

The mission of NATO is over. NATO accomplished what it was designed to accomplish. It is time for the US to move on with those nations which it has more in common with than some of the nations currently in NATO.

Disbanding NATO will support both the long term goals of france and Germany and make the EU a stronger world player. Then the people of these two nations can make decisions which best support their own vision of security as well as their polices of being world players.

This might put a bit of a strange on those who pay taxes in Germany, now having to fund for their own defense as well as keeping supporting and ever bigger welfare state. But hey, no one every said being a world player was easy.

If some think it is easy, then they have failed to pay much attention to the US. Of eduction is always expensive when one has to fund it themselves.

If any of you can give me any suggestions to help with this common cause, please feel free to post.

I am sure jo, might have some really good suggestions.


@Merton

"I'm glad germany, too, has a world-class paranoid loonie team on par with LGF and FR."

It’s getting to the point that leftist true believers aren’t even capable of debating above the level of ad hominem attacks like this anymore. They’re so convinced of their own superior virtue that anyone who disagrees with them is automatically dismissed as either evil or crazy. An ironic consequence of this is that the most effective arguments in favor of viewpoints that one would normally describe as leftist are made by people the left dismisses as “right wingers.” Andrew Sullivan and Mickey Kaus come to mind in the U.S. No doubt it’s always been that way to some extent. Still, the level of polarization seems extreme, especially when one considers the fact that the left doesn’t even have a coherent ideology anymore, as it once did, for example, in Communism. Now the left’s only real unifying factors are its hatreds.

They just "disappeared" it, huh? Rather reminiscent of Soviet communism.

@Joe

You are by far my favorite poster!

But I'm sorry to correct you -again-
on this: "I would expect the average German to be a Kerry voter. I base this on the fact that the majority of Germans appear to want to transfer responsiblity for their personal lives to someone else. They embrace BIG GOVERNMENT telling them how to live. Nothing like some new law and more talk to make things better."

Your observations, you call them "facts" seemed to be based on outdated data from the seventies.

Even the spd idiots including Schroeder ("the dazzler") learned the key for recovery is to cut back regulations and big (spending) government.

And of course, we often disagree on this, I don't see Germany following a long term goal of disbanding nato. Thats your own respected wishful thinking.
Lets face it, it would be against the national interests of the USA to disband Europe, ask Rummy.

Looks like we have the 'multiple Joes' issue here again. The long post was not my me.

Joe - there is no silver lining to a Kerry win. The U.S. will not gain more allies. The entire argument on the Governmental level at least is a fig leaf. Taking large initiatives to a population is hard work. If you're, say, a populous european nation, and there is someone else out there to complete the objective, why bother?

There is another reason that there will be no silver lining. The American public will hate Kerry more than you can imagine. The far left will feel betrayed, the near left will look at him and wonder what changed, and the right will turn on him due to social policy.
Our 'partners' in the world will find another fig leaf to avoid heavy lifting, as in the early days of the breaking up of the former Yugoslavia. Only Britain did anything substantive, and the French helped.
The european left will not find him 'left' enough. St. Louis will be turned into a glowing orb, and no-one in their right mind would go fight a war for John Kerry, who already hitched his train to the 'feelers' and not the 'thinkers' back in 1974.

I just wonder Cabana Boy's price to get them on board.

Kyoto?

ICC??

Rolling over at the UN???

What???

I don't think anything Sandy. It almost seems like the world wants the US to be a part-time security guard. What's worse, is that they want our money more than any sort of "alliance". So long as we're the worlds bitch, we're okay, anything else is called "imperialisim".

What irks me, is all we had to do in the first place to get France and Germany on board was to pay them off, say 10 Billion apiece. France is nothing but a whore now, trying to prop up its bloated social welfare system with contracts with the most usavory of characters. THEY are okay, because they're France's bitch, but we're not, therefore we're evil, or at least misguided.

I wish I could talk better about germany. So I won't say anything. :)

John

Sandy,

You forgot about the permeanent UNSC seat for Germany.

Joe,

I am so disappointed in you and your viewpoints. Here you have already labeled a Kerry presidency a huge failure and he has not even won the election.

It also saddens me that you do not see these silver linings. You listed them. Look at these, from a different perspective.

The first one, America will gain no new allies. I could not agree with you more. But as I stated Kerry has said he will be able to do this. He implies that our “so called major allies”, meaning of course Germany and france, will willing step up and put the hidden European legions they have built up at the disposal of a President Kerry. This will lessen the burden on America.

I think we are going to be in for a period of great international and political comedy. Think of how this is going to play out. Kerry is going to go to Berlin and Paris with hat in hand asking for their support. Think of the hoops Gerhart is going to have to do if he were to announce to the German people that he is sending 5,000 Germans to Iraq to bring about stabilization. And yes, some of them might actually have to fight and die. Or what price the french will demand to send a lesser number of troops.

Sandy has pointed out only a few of items that will have to be paid to gain the support of our “so called allies”. I am sure there will be even more.

Of course if Gerhart and the french say Nein and Non, then what? What will a President Kerry tell the American people? How will he address why NATO is still relevant to the US? How is he going to explain his failure of how while he agreed with President Bush about the need to remove Saddam and how he could do it better with more international support than there currently is, he has failed to gain this support.

I agree with you, why should our “so called allies” do anything when they can count on the US to do the heavy lifting. I believe Americans will be able to more quickly connect the dots under a President Kerry than they have under President Bush. They will see what so many Americans who post here come to realize that france and Germany are not really allies in the sense of the world if it means actually doing something like fighting. Big MSM will have to go into overdrive and reach new heights to spin this for the left. Think if you were the editor of the NYT or the WsshPo what you are going to have to say. Surely you are going to be at the limit of your spin cycle - Kerry, UN, NATO, EU,

I would find all of this to be very funny if Americans were not dying.

Of course the left is going to feel betrayed. (Could not happen to a nicer group of folks unless if it were the french). They finally have one of their very own in power. Something I do not think they ever felt was possible. They are going to want to socialize America just like Germany and france have been. They will want their own form of social justice. When this does not come about, they will indeed feel betrayed.

You are right that Americans are going to hate him. I have no doubt about that. If for no other reason that he is not personable, he is not engaging and he is a bit dishonest and he will be weak on national defense. Be sure that I will be the first one to post when Americans interests are continually attacked and our citizens die. The American people will see their values and ideals trashed. They will hear lots of talk about change but see no change. The change they will see will be one, which makes them as fearful of the future and the world as so many Europeans are now.

What will be interesting is to see how MSM handles this. Kerry is their candidate. . I am sure they will try to convince people like you and me and Sandy that we have this all wrong. We just do not understand. They will try to make us more European where we see every problem as too complex to deal with. So the solution will be to sign a piece of paper and this will make everything super.

Of course, there will be a huge transfer of wealth or income distribution. This will not be noticed at first as the economy much like for Clinton will kick-in in a very visual way after the election. This will last until the first major shock to the nation. You can have your pick on what that might be – a terrorist attack on the US – the assassination of the King of SA, the bombing of the Panama canal. It really is a target rich environment. We might even be able to revisit the Carter years. I am sure the world will enjoy that as much as Americans will.

Of course, all of this will be something we deserve because we elected him and he will be OUR president.

So I think a Kerry presidency has many silver linings. It will finally discredit the left and the democratic party, as we now know it. It will end NATO It will make the US less likely to be engaged in the world as the world’s policeman. It will split the black vote between Republicans and democratics. It will make the UN even more irrelevant than it already is. It will cause more people to be engaged in the political process who are on the right. It will insure that another democrat will not be elected president for at least another 16 years. Figuring you can start 2008 with McCain, then probably Santorum or Giuliani or a setting governor from today. Of course this is all bad news for the Clintons. – Remember 2008 was to be the year of the woman.

I find all these things to be good. Many of them will be painful but this too shall pass.

Joe, there was one group you left out. I think for the purposes of the blog it is the most important one. It is the Germans and the euro’s. I have been reading some of the lastest think tank papers coming from Europeans. It seems that now the possiblity of a Kerry presidency might become a reality they have begun to exaim just what this might mean. The bottom line is that while they might get what they wish for in that President Bush will be defeated they will start to long for him and his policies.

Life can be a bitch at times. Just ask the french.

Ralf,

Oh Ralf, oh Ralf, you must have just gotten back from holidays again. It would appear this time you spent it in france and are still feeling the effects of all that excess french wine that seems to be so prevalent this year.

I do not think my facts are outdated at all. They are more a reflection of the German people and what the German people have become. (A topic for another day.)

If you think what the SPD has done is some how a major change, then you surely are hung over. Yes, I know the Germans dislike change even more than they dislike President Bush and by extension America.

Look at what has happened. Forty thousand people march in Berlin to protest these minor changes and the government goes weak kneed. As one of my German chat friends would write………tz tz tz. To that I would add where is the elected leadership. I know it is there. We see and hear about it all the time, how it is standing up to America and going the Germany way.

This is just the first step in a process that Germany must face. You can choose to do it now or you can choose to do it later when the pain is going to be even greater. But it does show how difficult this is going to be to overhaul your economy, which trails the US, and most developed economies in worker productivity and growth.

>>>>Ralf, I like you and still have some respect for Germany and the Germans so I suggest now not later. If you were french, I would say don’t worry about it. This too will pass. Do nothing. In fact, I read a very good paper that outlined what steps were needed to turn around france. The author really did know what he was suggesting. He went futher and stated at the end of the day the french are going to have to end up here. But the US should make these suggestions formal and part of the dialog with the french. As this would be the American position, the french would never do it. So they would hasten their decline. You know me nothing is never too good for ones enemies... oops I mispoke one's allies.<<<<<<

I cannot believe how silly you all can be. Did you really think paying people to do less would in fact create both more jobs and wealth? I cannot believe that. Hell the entire nation must have gone on holiday to france that year. It must have been a very good vintage in france.

I see these protests have scared even the CDU. So there is going to be a meeting of all the players to discuss these issues. That should be interesting. Want to bet on more talk and less action. What is that word ----aha…yes “Reformstau”. – A lively debate about why change is necessary and why, nevertheless, changes aren’t coming.

We have a bit of that here too in candidate Kerry’s I voted for Iraq before I voted against it. We also see it in that yes of course Germany is a major ally of the US just don’t ask us to do anything. Here you could substitute the word “action” for the word “change”. But we would still come out with the same results. *g*

If the cost of labor is not reduced then the German economy will not get up and run again after the current decade long slump. I personally doubt it will even if all of Agenda 2010 is implemented. Eastern Europe is going to eat your lunch.

This I think the Germans are going to find is going to be a bit more difficult than being anti-Bush, anti-war, or anti-American. If they want to emerge from the challenges of demographics and globalization then they have to do this and even more.

I know you and all the rest of the Germans are going to hate this. Having said that change is part of the world we live in. Get on with it and become the nation you can be.

As I posted earlier – Life’s a bitch. Just ask the french. – (Of course, you do need to ask them that question in french if you want an answer)


I sent this poll to a friend and he sent me this response:


I told you that Deutsche Welle had a poll on Kerry and Bush and you couldn't vote for bush but only was thanked when voting for kerry..,....

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