« SPIEGEL ONLINE: "America Killing and Systematically Torturing Thousands of Iraqis with Government Backing" | Main | The Good, The Bad, The Media »

Comments

I really cant see the "downplaying" at Spiegel Online. Have you even read the article?
There is not a single line that qualifies for such a statement.
I mean "an Grausamkeit kaum zu überbieten" or "nach der bestialischen Hinrichtung brüllen die Mörder: Allah u akbar" is not really downplaying.

The terrorists clearly stated that they took revenge for Abu Ghreib with this murder, why shouldn't Spiegel Online report this fact?

You recently said you stopped reading Spiegel Online frequently. Maybe you should at least make an exception for the articles you are referring to on your webpage...

Note from David: Daniel, you're either blind or stupid or both. How about the first headline: "RACHE FÜR US-FOLTER" ("Revenge for torture"). The caption of the picture on the upper left says: "Täter und Opfer vor der Hinrichtung: Rache für die Misshandlungen" ("....Revenge for the abuse"). This is not presented as quotes. You have to assume, this is SPIEGEL ONLINE's position. And that's in fact what they want to convey. SPIEGEL ONLINE tries to convey the impression of a tid-for-tad action.

SPIEGEL's article on the beheading is mostly matter-of-fact. No comparison with the vicious, venomous hatred found in SPIEGEL ONLINE's account of the "torture" by GI's in Iraqi prisons.

Would it come as a surprise that SPON would not take this position. They seem to spin the news to best fit the position of the German elites.

Remember Europe and espcially Germany has a monopoly on morale outrage.

David your quotes are very interesting, but I didn't say that SPON didn't claim that the terrorists tried to take revenge for Abu Ghreib.
I said that SPON doesn't downplay the crime.
The terrorists stated that they wanted to avenge the Iraqi prisoners, so Spiegel is absolutely right in drawing the conclusion that this murder was a revenge for Abu Ghreib - SPON doesn't need to put this logical conclusion in quotes.

By the way no sane person can possibly think that "taking revenge for Abu Ghreib" is an excuse for such a cruel murder - thus stating that it was a revenge is no downplaying of the murder at all.

I already commented on the "matter of fact" style of the article.
Phrases like "bestialisch" "an Grausamkeiten kaum zu überbieten" "furchtbare Schreie" etc. are greatly appealing to emotions and are by no means cold, scientific "matter-of-fact" reporting.

Of course the killers will claim it's not their fault -- that's why they have hoods on so as to not be identifiable.
They murdered before Abu G., they've murdered again, they'll murder whenever they can.
Iraqis soon must choose -- terrorist masters, or freedom (protected by American guns). The kind of freedom Germany has.
Freedom to burn American flags; freedom to be anti-American.
Freedom FROM terrorist murderers.

The media must show it.

It will be interesting to watch the media spin this as some form of revenge killing for the prisoner abuse. I wonder if they will point out to their audiences that this is the same group who flew planes into the WTC killing 3,000 people, who beheaded Danny Pearl, who set off bombs in Turkey, who caused 3 11 in Spain all before there were any pictures of prisoner abuse.

I am sure the elites in Europe will spend even more time chatting about "root causes".

.


Pardon me for quoting myself, but something I wrote as an initial reaction to the Madrid bombings applies here as well:

While I realize that it is necessary to find those responsible... I find the speculation on which group is responsible to be somewhat cynical. Does it really matter to the victims for which supposed cause they were killed? Doesn't the attention given to the perpetrators and their motives give them a false legitimacy and encourage similar attacks in the future? At this moment, I would rather think of the father and husband (who was killed)... than about the twisted reasoning and motives of those who killed him.

To put the twisted reasoning of terrorists in the foreground of a report on their crimes is even worse. It gives them exactly what they want, publicity for their supposed "cause", and makes them appear as legimate political actors.

We should be depriving terrorists of the "oxygen of publicity" (as Margaret Thatcher put it), but reports like this seem intent on pumping the oxygen in.

Well, it's been awhile since I've been here publicly.

Let's take this headline in the context of the headline in David's previous post

>SPIEGEL ONLINE: "America Killing and Systematically Torturing Thousands of Iraqis with Government Backing"

Germans. Sooner or later you are going to have a choice to make. America is not systematically doing anything. If America had the power you so fear, Iraq would by now be the 51st state yes?

Do not make the mistake of using the template of your own history to understand America. Your history is invading Poland on a trumped-up charge of abusing ethnic Germans. You depended on your media and your government to tell you the truth. They betrayed you and you got snagged into the myth of the master race and will for generations untold be held to account for the genocide of the Holocaust.

It is not fair. It is fact.

Here is what is different. Don't tell me you didn't know. I watched on TV the other night that Hitler Youth were taken on an educational excursion to Buchenwald.

Our government, at the behest of us, does not countentance this inhumanity. We will not accept "We didn't know". You did and you do.

This is what we do when it happens. We expose it, we investigate it, we excoriate it.

So. This is your choice. Continue to demonize America, regardless of the values we live by when wrong is done, however much it pains us. It certainly relieves you of confronting the threat to western civilization, which includes you, posed by radical Islam. We don't excuse our mistakes. You doom yourselves if you value what you want to be the humiliation of America over all else.

And you would deserve it.

J'cuse.

Heck, if America had the power they fear we do, Germany would have at least had our Constitution imposed on them, if not became a territory.

What an empire we are, we let you choose your way in the world.

You're also in "imminent" danger of being cut loose.

> Heck, if America had the power they fear we do
> Germany would have at least had our Constitution
> imposed on them,

Funny, the US already did 'impose' a constitution on Germany.

I see SPIEGEL is now using Berg's family as surrogates to claim that Bush is responsible for the beheading. Predictable, I guess. They always manage to crawl deeper into the gutter than the rest.

Helian wrote:
I see SPIEGEL is now using Berg's family as surrogates to claim that Bush is responsible for the beheading. Predictable, I guess. They always manage to crawl deeper into the gutter than the rest.

AP already pounded on this issue last night with a big headline, before any German media (I am sure there are others - just seen this one). But don't let this deter your own views.

Berg family angry with American government over son's brutal death
By Jason Straziuso
Of The Associated Press
May 11, 2004, 2:34 PM EDT

Hi,
vor einiger Zeit habe ich hier mal unter Nick Daniel gepostet. Da es hier aber wohl mehrere mit diesem Nick gibt, habe ich mich mal umbenannt.
Ich war der Meinung, dass die deutschen Medien Bush kritisch sind, aber nicht anti-amerikanisch, und Gabi geschrieben, sie soll nicht paranoid werden. Sorry, ich denke ich lag damals nicht ganz richtig. Auf jeden Fall nervt mich mittlerweile die einseitige Berichterstattung kollossal.
Und sie ist wirklich einseitig. Auch wenn Spiegel Online im Artikel ueber diesen Mord nichts verharmlost, allein die Ueberschrift ("Rache" etc) ist eine Wertung, die beschwichtigend und erklaerend wirkt.
Wenn uns die Folterbilder ueber Wochen hinweg zugemutet werden, dann kann uns auch die Brutalitaet dieses Mords zugemutet werden. Ich bin entsetzt ueber die Folterbilder, und hoffe sehr, dass wirklich deutliche Massnahmen getroffen werden, dass die Verantwortlichen bestraft werden und ganz klar sichergestellt ist, dass sich solche ekligen Dinge nicht wiederholen koennen. Aber bei Spiegel Online hatte ich in letzter Zeit das Gefuehl, dass permanent Artikel aus den Fingern gesogen und ganz nach oben gestellt werden, damit man die Fotos wieder und wieder zeigen kann. Sueddeutsche.de brachte einen Artikel "Abu Ghraib ist kein Zufall" letztens als Hauptschlagzeile. Der war in der Printausgabe unter "Wissen" einsortiert, und da gehoert er auch hin, des ging naemlich um die altbekannten Psychologie-Experimente mit Waertern und Gefangenen, und nicht um systematische Anordnung von oben, wie die Ueberschrift leicht suggerieren koennte. Aber es war wieder mal eine Moeglichkeit, das Thema ganz nach vorn zu stellen.
Zu dem Blog moechte ich noch was loswerden. Ich habe in letzter Zeit natuerlich auch selbst etwas aufmerksamer den Unterton von Artikeln und Berichten verfolgt, und mit ein paar Freunden gesprochen, die dann meistens auch die einseitige Sicht der Medien erkannt haben. Die einzige Ausrede war hoechstens noch: aber sie haben ja Recht. Das Problem ist natuerlich, dass man immer mehr vom Recht der eigenen Meinung ueberzeugt wird, je oefter man sie unterstuetzt findet und je seltener man eine Gegenmeinung hoert. Genau das fehlt in Deutschland wohl wirklich.
Die Sache ist die: selbst eingeschworene Bush-Gegner sollten davon zu ueberzeugen sein, dass sie vielleicht nicht nur ihre eigene Meinung permanent lesen wollen. Wenn ich in der Sueddeutschen die erste Seite sehe und gerade schon weiss, was wohl auf der Meinungsseite stehen wird, brauche ich die Meinungsseite nicht mehr. Hin und wieder darf auch mal das Buch von Berman besprochen werden, im Feuilleton, oder Hans Leyendecker schreibt ueber die Verhamlosung des Islamismus in Deutschland, in der Wochenendbeilage. Alles andere ist vorhersagbar.
Ich habe den Eindruck, dass dieses Blog in letzter Zeit sich wieder mehr auf die Medien konzentriert, nachdem ich vorher mich so ueber das Deutschland-Bashing aufgeregt hatte, dass ich Eure Kritik an den Medien dabei instinktiv zurueckgewiesen habe. Das ist vielleicht auch das, was Klink oft meint, wenn er die Bush-Freundlichkeit dieses Forums kritisiert. Fuer die Artikel allerdings, die ihr im Moment bringt, kann ich im Moment nur sagen: weiter so, ihr habt mich ueberzeugt :-)
Noch eine Idee: toll waere eine Seite mit einer Zusammenstellung der besten Beispiele, die ihr hier bringt. Dass man diese Seite einfach jemandem zeigen koennte, der keine Lust hat, so lange hier mitzulesen. Leider habe ich so verdammt wenig Zeit im Moment, sonst wuerde ich es selber machen. Vielleicht fuehlt sich ja irgendjemand angesprochen.

@Scott,

Yes a mistake on the constitution. We should have turned all of Germany over to the Soviets.

Americans are just so stupid. Even today there are those who believe them to be our allies.

Klink: AP already pounded on this issue last night with a big headline, before any German media (I am sure there are others - just seen this one). But don't let this deter your own views

Klink, what you seem totally unable to understand is that you are on a web site dealing with the GERMAN media. Do you understand ? GERMAN media. G E R M A N .

This is not the first time you post stuff like: "I might have broken a window with the soccer ball, but Fritz broke one to". Nobody gives a damn what Fritz did, in this case what AP did. They are just as rotten as Spiegel.

Are you sure you FULLY understand the purpose of this blog ? Your postings show that you are not so sure about what you are doing here.

This is a blog on GERMAN media. I know, by now you are slightly offended by my repetitions, but this is my prediction: you will NOT get it !

What in the world are you trying to prove with such a lame posting ??? That Spiegel is not as "bad" as this fascist blog "pretends". What are you trying to reach ? Whom are you trying to convince ?

You are more than capable to face Bush's mistakes, and you are totally unable to face and accept the failures of the GERMAN media. You ALWAYS try to relativate. The GERMAN media continues to burn the bridges between the US and Germany, and you defend and relativate its blunders. I told you this many times: only the trolls here take you seriously.

@WhatDoIKnow
Klink, what you seem totally unable to understand is that you are on a web site dealing with the GERMAN media. Do you understand ? GERMAN media. G E R M A N .

Do YOU understand that most newsmedia does not have reporters locally, but rely on the previous output by the wires, be it AP, reuters, UIP, dpa, AFP, etc.?

If one singles out "the German media" on an issue, it is important to look at others, also to look across fences.

David was right for example IMO on top for observing and pounding on SPIEGEL for not putting the "Revenge"-comment into quotation-marks in their headline, like others did. Helian now was wrong for singling out the comments on the parents - see previous AP or others.

This is about Medienkritik afterall.

Klink: most newsmedia does not have reporters locally, but rely on the previous output by the wires, be it AP, reuters, UIP, dpa, AFP, etc

So the German media is generally NOT responsible for what they report. It's the fault of AP, reuters, UIP, dpa, AFP, etc. I see... You can try to shift the blame, but this doesn't excuse the media. "I broke the window, but only because Fritz told me to".

I get your point. Lame, as usual, but good enough to give an insight into your mind.

If one singles out "the German media" on an issue, it is important to look at others, also to look across fences

It is important for you. You sure aren't talking in my name. And you have the feeling that "it is important to look at others" so that you can relativate the facts.

Pretty bad spin. Try again.

@ SPIEGEL- endorser Klink

Can you still get air up there, your morale outrage must be overwhelming defending SPIEGEL for its fair and balanced coverage of the news. Medical safety first, you know

ob die misshandlungen nun systematisch waren oder nicht, ob es einen befehl von oben gab oder nicht: die öffentlichkeit, bzw. die medien, sind TOTAL auf die USA fixiert und alles, was passiert, facht den antiamerikanismus weiter an. da spielt es auch keine rolle, dass die britische armee ebenfalls misshandlungen zu verantworten hat (und dass andere armeen in anderen ländern wahrhaft grausamer sind) - von einem antibrittanismus ist nichts zu sehen.

was würden wohl die antiamerikaner sagen, wenn rumsfeld zurückträte? sie würden sagen: "er will nur seinen kopf retten."

was würden sie sagen, wenn bush zurückträte? sie würden sagen: "er war ohnehin nur eine marionette der neocons."

diese leute fürchten nicht, dass die USA ein zweites vietnam erleben könnten, sie HOFFEN es!

darum: lasst einfach die amis ihren job machen! mit diesen islamofaschisten diskutiert man nicht.

WhatDoIKnow
So the German media is generally NOT responsible for what they report.

No, but it *can* be coming from the tone in previous wires. Like in this case apparently. And I even named as counter-example of bias the left-out quotes in the "Revenge"-Headline in an attempt to be fair and balanced (™ Fox-News). Evidently missed by some.

@Klink

Lamentable spin.

@ SPIEGEL- endorser Klink

I know your outrage was tempered some because Berg was not forced to wear pink undies before he was beheaded. If he had I know you would call this torture.

Being the fair and balance person you are.

Well surely if you look across the fence at the french media it will only reinforce the spin of the German media.

Next think you will think of is to ask the PLO what they think of al-Quaida

@Joe
I know your outrage was tempered some because Berg was not forced to wear pink undies before he was beheaded.

My outrage in this blog was sadly tempered by the fact that Gabi immediately instrumentalized this tragic murder for another couple of of her countless loaded questions against "the Germans" as a whole:

Ein Mann nimmt ein Messer und trennt jemanden den Kopf ab.
Warum fühlen die Deutschen nichts beim Letzteren? Warum läßt es sie kalt?

So I perhaps rather chose other places after I had to read such blindness.

Klink

Would you translate that for me, please.

Thank you

@Klink

"AP already pounded on this issue last night with a big headline, before any German media (I am sure there are others - just seen this one). But don't let this deter your own views."

Precisely, Klink, and the same spin has been on CBS and CNN. Now, explain to us again how the American mass media are in lockstep with the Bush Administration.

@Helian,

Ouch!

Ask Ray - I am not firm for precise German-English translations. Loosely paraphrased by me: Gabi described how a man saws off the head of somebody else and then Gabi asks in her standard loaded question-style, why "the Germans" aren't feeling anything when watching this and why does it leave them cold?

Since I am German and you are American, it would be vice-versa like someone asking:
"Children starve to painful deaths in Africa, their bodies shrivel and dry out. Why aren't the Americans feeling anything over this? Why does it leave them cold?"

Classic loaded questions...you know, the "Do you still beat your wife"-type. Gabi does that quite a lot. (We sometimes count question-marks - the bet is on if she ever makes it up to 20 questions in one posting)

It was the first I (as a German) saw when getting on this blog after hearing this horrible news. And as a German, it left me rather head-shaking.

@Helian
Precisely, Klink, and the same spin has been on CBS and CNN. Now, explain to us again how the American mass media are in lockstep with the Bush Administration.

Did I say this? When? The American free press is one of the great things about the US and what let's me have faith and praisal for America. (except for a short time in the run-up to the Iraq-war - but even then the Internet offered countless great US-alternatives besides the big networks) I frequently see this great press horribly trashed in US-rightwing blogs. In fact, WhatDoIKnow's reply against AP was also revealing:

Nobody gives a damn what Fritz did, in this case what AP did. They are just as rotten as Spiegel.

Do you consider associated press also to be "rotten"?

The search for the real Klink:

Klink in "What is torture/Was ist Folter:

"Ich finde die ganze Diskussion hier mit Relativieren und Vergleichen reichlich daneben und unpassend. Seien es Vergleiche mit "Kannibalen oder Kindersex ist auch schlimm", oder nun Du. Alles verschiedene paar Schuhe."

Klink in "Terrorists Brutally Murder Innocent American":

"AP already pounded on this issue last night with a big headline, before any German media (I am sure there are others - just seen this one). But don't let this deter your own views."

Will the real Klink please step forward?

Though I sometimes run into Germans who tell me about "US-media being blabla" - perhaps you meant this.

Of course I clear the heads of those people from this rubbish - one of the reasons we know so much critical stuff about the Bush-administration is America's great transparency. Unthinkable in Germany, sadly. (and I mentioned before how Bush at times sadly is more than hesitant with this great asset)

Where's the contradiction? Could you explain?

I still do not know what individual cannibals - be it Jeffrey Dahmer or that German one - have to do with any issues on political things like Iraq or terrorism and its possible fallout of various news?

@Klink

"Did I say this? When? The American free press is one of the great things about the US and what let's me have faith and praisal for America."

You're right this time, Klink. My question was rhetorical, and I was using you as a "surrogate" to attack the German media. You see, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being followed.

@Klink:

"My outrage in this blog was sadly tempered by the fact that Gabi immediately instrumentalized this tragic murder for another couple of of her countless loaded questions against "the Germans" as a whole:"

Here I think your paranoia is less appropriate. Americans who follow the German media have watched for years as America bashing in the German media has constantly intensified and become shriller and more hateful. In SPIEGEL and elsewhere we constantly see negative stereotyping of Americans in general. You seem to think that we should react to this flood of hatemongering propaganda as if we were a nation of philosopher kings. In the first place I think that's wrong from a purely utilitarian point of view. If we react with sweet reason to everything we see, gently pointing out where our detractors are wrong, it won't help a bit, because our detractors are not thinking rationally. I think it might just possibly help if we occasionally react to their rage with rage of our own, and show that we can climb just as high up on the moral high ground as they can. Maybe if they see us reacting that way, maybe if once in awhile they have to swallow a little bit of their own medicine, it will have a tonic effect. Maybe they will step back a little and actually start to think. As we've seen on this blog, I think that in many cases that's already starting to happen.

Sure we get an attitude sometimes, Klink. We're the children of Europe, and sometimes children get an attitude towards their parents, especially when they're treated unfairly. That doesn't necessarily mean that we somehow have a visceral dislike of Germany, or any other European country. It wouldn't really be reasonable, would it, because most of us are at least part German. Many of the rest of us have Anglo-Saxon roots, and, as you may recall, the Angles and Saxons were German tribes. English was originally a dialect of German. I, for one, have a deep appreciation for my German heritage, and respect for my German ancestors. That's precisely why I'm so disturbed by what I see going on in Germany today. Children tend to be disturbed if they find their parents are self-detructive addicts. Today Germany is addicted to anti-Americanism, it's people are dying out, and, in many ways, the country does seem to be on a downhill spiral. One of the reasons I'm active on this blog is because I don't think it's inevitable that things must continue that way. In a word, if you want to react against what you consider "anti-German" attitudes, go ahead, it's your perfect right. But, at least in my case, never believe that I have an "attitude" because I hate Germany. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The spiegel is really disgusting. Right now they have a headline "pope says abu graib torture affair is worse than 9/11".

They usually disagree with the pope on just about everything, but when he says something that fits their agenda, he is suddenly a moral authority.

@Klink,

Thanks for the translation.

Funny you should mention starving children in Africa. I happened to have lost some friends there on a Clinton/UN adventure whose mission was to provide protection to UN food distribution operations.

Typical of a democrat, he allowed mission creep to set in then set US Forces off to do a mission which they were not equipped to do. To make matters worse, the commanders on the ground had requested the necessary equipment called for by the expanding mission. Both the SECDEF and the WH denied their request. So the end results was not only was the mission a failure but US soldiers ended up dying.

The only reason we were there and there was support for this operation at all was because us stupid Americans felt bad about these starving people.

Surely Somalia had no national interest.

Having said all of that once the war on terror was declared the first place I wanted to return to was Somalia. They saw one aspect of America. I wanted to introduce them to another aspect. I feel we owe those people.

As to the question Gabi asks, I am not sure if I have read it correctly but I have read it 5 times. It seems to be a valid question to ask.

I know I have to be missing something from your perspective. I hope you will share that with me.

Klink is always telling us to free our minds. Today I am. I am going to listen to Rush Limaugh. When I went to his link to find the local station, it listed all the stations that carry him in my state. I can tell you he covers this state from boarder to boarder. We are a small state of only 9 million people but I am sure there are more listeners to his program than those who watch Big Media news program.

It seems that German media is mentoring today’s Limaugh program. Maybe just maybe you might get a taste of a different but a majority of Americans.

Spiegel Online is lying as always.
The Pope said absolutely nothing. One of his cardinals said the torture was worse than 9/11, meaning the damage done to America was bigger by the torture pictures than by 9/11.

It is not even clear that he said it because they copied an Italian newspaper and probably the translation is wrong!

As for having their own reporters - yessiree they do. I have met them here in DC. They are about as far removed from reporting as reportage of facts as any group i've chatted with - (ZDF and Austria's ORT at least, as well as the BBC story pimps.)
One thing was true of all of them. The moment one kindly presents the US position - they appear to be personally scared. As if someone was going to eat them.

They simply cant understand the culture of the place from which they're reporting.

As one of the posters here would reply

*ywan* and this is surprising. Your point would be?

Would it make any difference to either the German media or the German people. The report is very much within the comfort zone they have choosen to live in.

I didn't say "A" constitution, Scott, I wrote "OUR" Constitution.

See the difference?

As to Rush,

wlsam.com

click on Listen live

Then grab your smelling salts, Ethel. You'll need them.

Hugh Hewitt is very good.

I also want to make a point that what's different between Berg and Pearl was that Pearl was made to ID himself as a Jew.

Berg was not. I wonder why?

And, interestingly, it seems that while Berg's body's is on his way home, the Italian is not. His body is not being released.

And AJ is not showing the beheading??? Uh, huh.

@Sandy P
@Joe

Thanks for the link, I'm listening to Rush Limbaugh online at wlsam.com. I'm having some good laughs on Rush's Kerry-Storys

@Joe

Back from switzerland, haven't forgotten, I still owe you an answer to your posting on "what Germany stands for etc" Still I'm lacking a bit of time. So I'll come back to you.

@Ralf,

Welcome back. Hope you had an enjoyable and productive trip.

Yes Rush is funny today. He makes you wonder about Kerry.

We have been discussing competing viewpoints and ideas while you have been gone.

Rush combined with Hannity have more daily listeners than the combined viewers of our broadcast news media - NBC, CBS, ABC

It just drives the liberals and the democrats nuts.

Look forward to your comments.

@Joe

I'm enjoing listing to him, but actually I do reflect on my life while beeing on vacation - I'm kidding

@Marabut:

Okay, where does the SPON article state that "the pope said"? Even the headline says "Vatican says", which is quite correct since the cardinal who said it actually is the foreign minister of the vatican. Get the facts straight, then shoot. :)

@Ralf,

That is what you are suppose to do. You Europeans get more reflection time than we do.

Am glad you found Rush to fun today. He gave me a bit of sanity as I am at war with Big Media here. So he actually had a claming effect.

Has anyone heard anything truly condemning the Berg atrocity in the Arab media yet?

No More Double Standards in the media
Don't discuss, just look and send it to a german newspaper.

http://www.jquinton.com/archives/001089.html
http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm

The comments to this entry are closed.

Mission

The Debate

Blog powered by Typepad

February 2021

Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
  1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28