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"It's not about killing or beheading or torture. It's not about the Geneva Convention or the rights of prisoners or international law.

It's about Bush and the election in November."

Mann, bist Du naiv. Die Enthauptung was schlicht ein anderes Al Kaida Massaker, von denen man im übrigen schlimmeres gewohnt ist.

Die sadistischen Pornobilder aus den US- Foltergefängnissen sind Symbole für den verlorenen Irak-Krieg. Und für das Versagen der USA als Weltpolizei. Und für eine US-Armee, die offenbar nur aus dem Bodensatz der amerikanischen Gesellschaft besteht.

Powell und Bremer wollen folgerichtig nur noch raus. Und zwar schnell. Am besten gleich nach dem 30. Juni.

Hauser is pretty naive about this.

What is the Nick Berg story? He was beheaded, the video was released, his body was found and returned to the States. What next? Find the killers? So there's some reporting on Zarqawi. But after that, the story has pretty much run its course. No more 'news'. What are the papers supposed to provide re. Nick Berg? At best, some op-ed pieces on the significance of his death, how it fits into the war in Iraq/war on terrorism, and maybe some quotes by his father who blames Bush and Rumsfeld.

What, if anything, could you put on the front page re. Nick Berg?

The prison abuse scandal is different because it is still unfolding. There are new revelations and ongoing court cases and that is what is being reported on.

"the dearth of reporting about Mr. Berg's killing a "travesty." "

??? Was there any news source anywhere in the Western world that didn't have it as the number one news item?

Spiegel Online had it as number one news item for an astonishing two hours or so. Then it was replaced by the Vatican's declaration Abu Ghraib would be worse than 9/11, an interview with a member of the ICRC, Schröder's latest flip-flop on the federal budget, a story about an ungly animal and goalkeeper Oliver Kahn's new book. So much for that.

As regards the prison abuse, Spiegel Online later also featured an article from AP with nothing new in it, but filled with those good old slogans of Vietnam, quagmire, disaster etc. That's not really what justifies replacing the cold-blood slaughter of an American citizen by an internationally wanted terrorist as the most important news item in my eyes.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand the difference between the decapitation of Nick Berg one the one hand, and the abuse of Iraqi prisoners on the other hand?

Try to look at it this way: One of the reasons the Americans invaded Iraq is the fight against terrorism. You shouldn't be surprised when some of these terrorists really show up, because the presence of terrorists is one of the reasons the Americans went there in the first place. (Though it is debatable whether or not this kind of terrorism existed in Iraq before the invasion.) We are outraged by the decapitation, but we are not surprised.

In contrast, when Americans abuse Iraqi prisoners, we are outraged AND surprised. We are outraged, because this is a violation of the Geneva conventions by an occupying force. We are surprised, because we don't expect American soldiers to do that - especially while trying to install freedom and democracy.

This is why it is justified that media coverage focusses (in the long term) on the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

@Thomas
As regards the prison abuse, Spiegel Online later also featured an article from AP with nothing new in it

Why no spin/opinion from you (or David/Ray) so far on SPIEGEL's "Exclusive", which runs since yesterday? It will air tomorrow night on German Television. Genuine story or Daily Mirror-blunder?

For our Americans - AFP runs it in English like here:
US troops tortured prisoner to death: report

SPIEGEL-website also has a couple of pics.

@ an den ersten Kommentator

Ja, klar, am besten Amis raus aus dem Irak (Die gleichen Leute waren es ja auch mit dem Spruch "Ausländer raus") und den Irak im Stich lassen.

Dann sind alle Probleme gelöst. Die Friedensbewegung & Co. , die das fordert, ist wie eine Gruppe von Quacksalber, die Quecksilber als Allheilmittel gegen Impotenz (Impotenz im Sinne von Ohnmacht, nicht die Krankheit !!)verkaufen würden.

Wie in den letzten 35 Jahren und am besten lässt ihr uns mit diesen Perversen allein, genauso wie Zapatero, die kaltblütig Köpfe abschneiden, wenn ihr weg seid, sind es ja unsere Köpfe.

Danke Europa für deine Menschenfreundlichkeit, die aus dem Irak eine Mondlandschaft der Massengräber gemacht hat !!!!

@Samir
Danke Europa für deine Menschenfreundlichkeit, die aus dem Irak eine Mondlandschaft der Massengräber gemacht hat !!!!

Nein. Die Massengräber wurden von Irakern geschaffen.

Die Täter waren Iraker und viele der Opfer waren Iraker. (und andere Opfer auch)

Ich sage das so klar, weil das auch mal wichtig wird für die Aufarbeitung der Geschichte. Man kann gerne das Argument führen, ob der Westen sich nicht oft falsch verhalten hat, aber wer direkter Täter war, sollte man nicht ausblenden.

Über den Vatikan

Den Artikel habe ich in der heutigen TAZ gefunden.

Ach ja, der Papst war ja gegen den Krieg, um die Leute an der Macht zu belassen, vor denen er seine Katholiken (& vor allem Katholikinnen, Stürmer lässt grüssen) schützen muss.


Der Vatikan hat in einem ungewöhnlich scharfen offiziellen Dokument vor Mischehen zwischen katholischen Frauen und Muslimen gewarnt. Hier gebe es "bittere Erfahrungen". Die Frau sei der "weniger geschützte Teil der muslimischen Familie", heißt es in dem gestern veröffentlichen Schreiben, das die Seelsorge für Migranten zum Thema hat.

Komme es zu Mischehen mit Muslimen, müssten katholische Beratungsstellen die Frauen auf die Schwierigkeiten vorbereiten. Dies gelte besonders, wenn sie mit ihrem Ehemann in dessen islamischer Heimat lebten. Eines der entscheidenden Probleme dabei sei die Kindererziehung.

In dem Dokument rief der Vatikan zugleich Muslime zur Achtung der Menschenrechte, der Persönlichkeitsrechte und der Demokratie auf. Die katholischen Gemeinden forderte er auf, den Muslimen zu verdeutlichen, was bei den religiösen Normen des Islam "nicht gebilligt werden kann". Im interreligiösen Dialog müssten Christen Ängste und Vorurteile abbauen, aber auch den eigenen Standpunkt klar machen. Bei den "muslimischen Brüdern und Schwestern" müsse ein wachsendes Bewusstsein dafür entstehen, "dass die Verwirklichung der grundlegenden Freiheiten, der unverletzlichen Rechte der Person, der gleichen Würde der Frau und des Mannes, des demokratischen Prinzips in der Regierung des Volkes und der gesunden Laizität (Trennung von Staat und Kirche) des Staates unumgänglich ist".

Grundsätzlich heißt es in der 80-seitigen "Instruktion" des Päpstlichen Rates mit dem Titel "Erga migrantes caritas Christi" (Die Liebe Christi zu den Migranten), Immigranten müssten mit Wärme und Solidarität aufgenommen werden. Fremdenfeindlichkeit und Rassismus seien zu überwinden.


Ja, wenn Muslime Muslime töten, quälen und foltern (nach der Reihenfolge) ist das Helal (Erlaubt, so wie KOSHER auf hebräisch / im Judentum) und wenn Christen Muslime töten, dann ist HARAM (verboten, wie Schweinefleisch).

Anscheinend ist der Papst muslimischer als der Mohammed.

Samir al-Iraqi,
wenn Du die, die jetzt Amis raus aus Irak quaken, als Verbrecher verurteilst, hast Du vollkommen recht. Das dumme ist aber, dass es scheinbar innerhalb der Amerikanische Streitkräfte und des Geheimdienstes Kräfte gibt, denen nicht klar ist, dass ihr gesetzloses und barbarisches Vorgehen genau zu diesem Amis raus aus Irak führen könnte. Die Amis-raus-Quakheinis sind keine echte Gefahr, die reissen auch so den Hals auf, aber die Folterer und möglicherweise auch Mörder und diejenigen, die das ganze am liebsten ganz leise regeln wollen, die sind eine echte Gefahr. Wenn die Opfer (und auch die potentiellen Opfer) nämlich nicht sehen, wie die Täter verfolgt werden und Aufklärung betrieben wird und die Situation sich ändert, dann kénnen sie ganz fix zu Feinden werden.

@unwichtig

So you do not believe that Saddam terrorized his own people. I guess that is fair enough as he was in fact the elected president of Iraq.

You being German I can understand this point of view. I think there are similar acts of an elected German leader doing much what Saddam did in your own history.

I can see how you would relate these two as not being state sponsored terror.

Remember …..

Bush is Evil!


@ joe:

You being German I can understand this point of view. I think there are similar acts of an elected German leader doing much what Saddam did in your own history. I can see how you would relate these two as not being state sponsored terror.

Hurra! Die Nazikeule! Da ist sie wieder..

I was wondering, Joe, how you would define the incidents in Abu Ghoreib - given the hints on Pentagon and CIA being involved there - "state-sponsored terrorism" yes or no?
- guess this is going to be part of your and your elected leader´s history.
(no schadenfreude)


OT via LGF from a Japanese news story:


A military source familiar with Korean Peninsula
affairs revealed on 6 May that Syrian technicians were killed in a train explosion incident that occurred on 22 April in Yongch'on in the northwestern part of the DPRK and that the damage was especially serious in that section of the train where the Syrians were
aboard, along with large equipment. The same source noted that although the contents of the equipment are unknown, DPRK military-related personnel wearing protective suits arrived on the scene immediately after the explosion and removed debris only from that section of the train where the Syrian group had been aboard. Consequently, there is a strong likelihood
that the accident occurred when military materials were being secretly transported between the DPRK and Syria.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MewNews/message/19905

Winning Ugly - our specialty:

http://hnn.us/articles/5100.html

The Berg family can't have it both ways. They want the Bush administration to bleed but they also want their son's picture on the front pages indefinitely. The ironic thing is that his picture is likely to return to the front pages soon, if recent revelations about the Moussaoui connection are followed with rigor.

@Joe

I guess you are referring to my saying "Though it is debatable whether or not this kind of terrorism existed in Iraq before the invasion."

I know that Saddam terrorized his own people, but this does not justify the invasion of a country. Otherwise you would also have to invade North Korea, Cuba, China, Sudan, Syria, Saudi-Arabia, Uzbekistan, Somalia, Turkmenistan, Burma, etc. Invading a country just because it is repressive is a violation of international law.

International terrrorism is something completely different, and I was stating that it is questionable whether international terrorism existed in Iraq before the invasion. Bush has already admitted that there is no evidence of a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

Unwichtig Invading a country just because it is repressive is a violation of international law

I just don't know how to react when I read statements like this... :-(( Shocked ? That doesn't even come close to how I feel...

In fact, this statement summarizes perfectly the position of "peace lovers". Saddam might kill his people, might kill them ALL if he wants to because he is their president after all. There is no law dealing with things like this, so it must be OK. I feel like climbing on the walls and never coming down amidst "peace loving" people.

So, NOBODY questions if this law is human ? The "peace loving" people care more about the law than about human life.

Did it EVER occur to people like Unwichtig that real lifes were being destroyed in Iraq under Saddam ?? There were tens of thounsands of Iraqian Nick Bergs in Iraq. And this only because it was "legal", according to the UN. "Peace loving" people slept at peace, because law was respected... And, at the same time, they hold the moral highground.

Unwichtig, people like you obviously never experienced the despair of losing family members like many of the Iraqis did. In a normal world I would say I don't wish you to have to go through that experience. In this world though, I guess that each and every "peace lover" in the world should have to go through what Iraqis did.

It is NOT Bush, but people like Unwichtig who made a joke out of the UN and "international law". Bush might have broken international law, but you, with this attitude, are the shame of humanity.

@ Klink

Vielen Dank, Klink !!

Vielen Dank, dass du mich daran erinnerst.

Wie du an einigen Kommentaren siehst, neige ich auch zu einer selbstkritischen Haltung ("Die Menschheit muss uns vor den Kreaturen retten, die wir geworden sind", falls du das vergessen hast).

Die Schuld der Iraker ist natürlich unermesslich, denn sie haben sich selber weh getan, deshalb sind sie nicht nur die grössten Opfer, sondern auch die grössten Täter.

Was Europa angeht, so werfe ich Europa vor, den Status quo, egal, wie dieser aussieht, hauptsache stabil, aufrechtzuerhalten. Europa hat die Fantasie verloren und hat Angst vor einer Zukunft, einer vielleicht besseren Zukunft. Ich nenne diese Idee "Festung Europa", aber vor den Mauern verrecken die Menschen.

Europa war bereit, über diese Massengräber hinüberzugehen, um Präsident Saddam Hussein die Hand zu schütteln. Bis zuletzt.

@Samir
Wie du an einigen Kommentaren siehst, neige ich auch zu einer selbstkritischen Haltung ("Die Menschheit muss uns vor den Kreaturen retten, die wir geworden sind", falls du das vergessen hast).

Das erkenne ich Dir auch an. Hier war es mir nur zu direkt: Als wenn ich als Deutscher die USA beschuldigen würde, für das Dritte Reich mitverantwortlich zu sein, weil ja seit 1934 der Welt bekannt war, daß Menschenrechtsverletzungen passieren.

Was Europa angeht, so werfe ich Europa vor, den Status quo, egal, wie dieser aussieht, hauptsache stabil, aufrechtzuerhalten. Europa hat die Fantasie verloren und hat Angst vor einer Zukunft, einer vielleicht besseren Zukunft. Ich nenne diese Idee "Festung Europa", aber vor den Mauern verrecken die Menschen.

Na ja, aber so einigen Irakern hat man in dieser "Festung" immerhin Zuflucht gegeben, wenn ich mir anschaue, wie oft man in Berlin auf Exil-Iraker treffen konnte.

Es geht sowohl den USA als auch Europa immer um die Erhaltung des eigenen Status Quo. Als Mitglied von ai sage ich Dir, es ist eine Scheiß-zynische Welt. (Nicht umsonst glaubten 53% der Amerikaner, Saddam stecke u.a. hinter 911 als ihre eigene Motivation für diese Aktion - sie sind aktiv, weil sie es für einen Teil des "Krieges" seit 911 halten) Auch z.B. was Flüchtlinge angeht, sei es aus Kriegs- oder aus humanitären Gründen.

Europa war bereit, über diese Massengräber hinüberzugehen, um Präsident Saddam Hussein die Hand zu schütteln. Bis zuletzt.

Und Nord-Korea erhält Hilfen, die mittelalterlichen Taliban erhielten Geld von den USA (fürs Drogen bekämpfen) und wir alle handeln gerne mit Menschenrechtsverletzer China. usw usw.

Ob USA oder Europa - alle tun sich herzlich wenig, wenn es um Politik geht: Es geht immer um Strategie, weniger um wahre Menschenrechte. Und das von Bush der Welt vorgetragene Argument gegen Saddam war eben das mit Massenvernichtungswaffen.

P.S. Du meintest vor einigen Wochen, Du wolltest im Sommer vielleicht zurück in den Irak. Bleibt es dabei oder sieht das jetzt anders aus nach den letzten Wochen?

@WhatDoIKnow

That law isn't always human is common knowledge. Abiding to law is a matter of stability rather than of humanity.

Think of South Africa. It has been a racist country for many decades. Today, it is the most important democracy in Africa. That was achieved peacefully without invading the country.

East Germany was communist country that shot its own people when they tried to cross the border. Today, it is part of one of the most important democracies in Europe. That was achieved peacefully without invading the country.

Iraq has been ruled by Saddam's terror regime for decades. Invading the country took a many hundreds of casualties on the coalition side and thousands of casualties on the Iraqi side - in the name of humanity. In the cause of this engagement, America lost its credibility because they could not find any weapons of mass destructions, because they could not find any evidence of a link between Saddam and Bin Laden, and because American soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners - in the name of humanity? The country is now instable and attracting terrorists from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran.

South Africa and East Germany demonstrated how an unexpected and lasting change can come about without destabilizing the entire region.

@samir

"Was Europa angeht, so werfe ich Europa vor ..."

Wenn Du von "Europa" sprichst beziehst du damit ein Italien, Polen und die andere europäische Staaten die Truppen im Iraq senden?

Chirac sagte dass die neuen europäischen Beitritstaate eine Chance verpasst haben zu Schweigen. Deine posting klingt als gäbe es sie nicht einmal - nicht sie, nicht ihre Truppen in Iraq, nicht den Brief der 8 Staatsoberhaeupter ...

Ich kann deine problem mit Deutschland verstehen, aber bitte tu ihm nicht den Gefallen, seine Stimme für die von ganz "Europa" zu sehen.

Vielleicht bin ich zu positiv was den erhofften Einfluss der Betrittslaender angeht? Aber es ist noch nicht alles entschieden.

If the country is so unstable, Unwichtig, answer me 2 questions:

How's the Iraqi dinar doing and where are the refugees?

@Unwichtig

Well you believe in the UN or you do not.

If you believe in the UN you then have to accept the fact that Iraq was invaded for it failed to comply with a long list of UNSCR's.

Of course, you can take the position that Iraq was complying with all UNSCR's and you would be both dishonest with all of us and with yourself.

This is one of those times when people wanted to have it both ways and they could not have it both ways.

It is much like the euro stability pact. Germany wanted it as a condition of joining the euro. Now that it is preventing Germany from trying to pull herself up from the mess the euro had created she chooses to ignore the own rules she demanded.

Other nations who have failed to abide by this pact have been hammered. Germany has escaped. So Germany gets to have it both ways.

I use this as an example of how international organization work and function. As long as there was no danger of any of the UNSCR's being enforced no one cared. Once a nation said we are going to enforce these other nations became upset.

So you really cannot have it both ways. You cannot not have it both ways at the UN. You seem to be able to have it any way you within the EU.

Of course where you show you own ignorance or hypocrisy is that when NATO went into the Balkans at the request of most of the nations of the EU it was for the same reasons that as Iraq if you want to use repression of civilians as your example. At that time there were no UNSCR that the Serbs were breaking and there was not even a UN enabling UNSCR authorizing the invasion.

So I choose not to think of you as either ignorant or a hypocrite but only a Bush hater who is not very well informed.

Such is life.


Unwichtig

Those other nations did not propose as much of a threat to the US as Saddam did.

If I am to follow your logic, which is if you do not invade all the nations you listed, then Iraq should not have been invaded because it was no worse than any of the others.

This makes as much sense as protesting illness and disease and demanding that medical research be stopped because a cure cannot be found for HIV or cancer or heart disease.

Surely you do not believe that and surely you would not want medical research to stop.

I accept the fact that you hate Bush and that you hate the US. That is your right to do so. I hope it makes you feel warm at night.

Remember as I have said.

Bush is Evil.


Unwichtig

The terrorists in Iraq, would you rather have them dying in Iraq or would you prefer to chase them around Berlin or Munich or Frankfurt.

If you do not think you are a target and have been a target from the very beginning of this you really are on drugs.

I think there was a wake up call for Spain on 3 11. The fact that Spain was a target was announced long before Spain joined the US as an ally in Iraq.

So sleep sound tonight.

Remember as I have said.

Bush is Evil.


joaninho

Do you really want to know? The last line of your post makes me think you don’t care one way or the other.

By your morale high tone, I have to assume you are German. I would expect you to try to cleanse your own feelings of guilt by trying to compare the abuses of a few Americans to the abuses of your nation. I think history will not allow that to happen. I think you do not believe that will be allowed to happen either.

But let us follow your line of thinking. You now live in a democracy. It was one that neither you nor your parents created. It was something that the US created for you. To create this democracy you live in a few million of your forefathers had to die first. So you have the privilege to live a life that is filled with freedoms more freedoms than your forefathers.

Of course none of this has any value to you. It was all paid for by someone else. Therefore I could not and do not expect you to valve not only the freedoms you have but the idea that others might want freedom too.

I think history will remember President Bush kindly as he but in a long line of American President like Roosevelt, Thurman, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, and Bush who tried to spread freedom and democracy thought out the world.

My question to you is how will Germany be remembered? Will it be remembered as a nation so self centered and so selfish and so fully of people who could only whine and protest and criticize and not be bothered to share the gift of freedom? I hope not but it looks more and more that it will be.

History will record all of this. You and your fellow citizens are writing history and so are we. We are only attempting to give the people of Iraq the same opportuinty you were given. We very well may fail. But if you reject our goals then your reject the freedoms you now enjoy.


So today I want you to think of four things.

Think if America had failed in World War 2, what your life might be like today.

Think of the “German Way”

Think of those evil Americans

Think of that evil Bush.


@Unwichtig:

"Why is it so difficult for some people to understand the difference between the decapitation of Nick Berg one the one hand, and the abuse of Iraqi prisoners on the other hand?"

There is a big difference....it goes to proportionality. There are several prisons ran by Americans in Irak. The bad acts were limited to a hand full of people....see General Tuguba's report.

"invading a country just because it is repressive is a violation of international law."

Says who? Didn't Nato do that in Bosnia and Kosovo.....Where was the "Gehemigung" from Kofi Annan? Or does the "Deutschen Weg" have exceptions.....like when a dictator is too close to Germany.

By the way, Resolution 1441 was Bush's legal "Genehmigung" to remove Sadam. All of the hot air from Chiraq and Schroeder was for home front consumption.

"Invading the country took a many hundreds of casualties on the coalition side and thousands of casualties on the Iraqi side -"

Less Americans and Iraqies have died in this conflict then elderly French people died last summer because their Government officials did not want their vacations interrupted.

"South Africa and East Germany demonstrated how an unexpected and lasting change can come about without destabilizing the entire region."

What!!!.....Thousands died in South Africa....A terror war lasted 20 years. Nelson Mandella had to set up reconciliation committees to pave over the hard feelings of people from both sides of the conflict.

The East Germans expected to find a Mercedes in their diveways on the day of reunification....15 years have gone by and their unemployment is over 20%. The Poles, Hungarians and Czecks had the same repression that the Germans had. Their ecomomies have grown to the point where they have been allowed into both NATO and the EU.

@Klink

Samir schreibt, "Danke Europa für deine Menschenfreundlichkeit, die aus dem Irak eine Mondlandschaft der Massengräber gemacht hat !!!!"

Klink erwidert, "Nein. Die Massengräber wurden von Irakern geschaffen."

Was hat Samir damit gemeint...Ihr Europeaer haben Sadam's Oel gekauft...hat ihm gleichweiser Waffen verkauft....Und mit die Food for Oel Scandal, wird man bald rausfinder welcher von Eueren Politiker Schmiergeld genommen.

Ihr Europeaer, besonderes ihr Deutschen haben schmutziger Haende. Es ist fiest dass ihr heuschlich so viel Kritik und Anklage macht, aber in Realitaet, ihr seid eine Teil der Ursache die Menchenmord Sadam.

"Nicht umsonst glaubten 53% der Amerikaner, Saddam stecke u.a. hinter 911 als ihre eigene Motivation für diese Aktion"

Mit Recht: Hier sind die Tatsachen.....1. Die Tsheckin haben Mohamad Atta waehrend die Sommer 2001 in Prag mit irakische Geheimdienstler beobachtet. 2. Ein englische Journalist haben alten irakische Geheimdienst Berichte zu Sadam, um ihm zu informieren, dass Atta in Bagdad war, um Sonder Training von Abdul Nadal zu bekommen. 3. Die Milzbrand Ausbruch kurz nach 911 war nie erloest.

Auch eurer eigene Geheimdiest hat besaetig dass in Irak Weapons of Mass Destruction gegeben hat. Auch hat die Inspektoren von UNO bestaetig vor Sadam sie in 1998 rausgeworfen, dass sowas gabt.


Uwichtig Abiding to law is a matter of stability rather than of humanity

I really thought that the other posting of yours was some slipup. But now, you confirmed it: you have no REMORSE for leaving the Iraqis in the hands of Saddam ! And this all in the name of stability. Again, I am speechless...

You obvisouly did never live in a dictatorship. (By the way, East Germany was a paradise compared to Iraq). Living a nice life, you were saying to yourself: "history will take its course and the Iraqis will be free, in a peacefull manner, when time will be ripe". Who are we to intervene in the course of history ?

Unwichtig, there are two choices: you are either a psychopat or you never sat down, alone, in silence and THOUGHT about what happens to the Iraqi people DAILY, while you wait for history to solve by itself its hicups. I don't believe you are a psychopat, but you are a failure as a human being.

Of course, there are still other contries in the world who are torturing and murdering their citizens on a daily basis. And, what does that tell us ? Why should we do anything in Iraq since there are so many other countries like Iraq ?

I don't know why this thing popped up in my mind: Mother Theresa said once they can't help ALL the poor of the world, but they help whomever they can. It is better than nothing. (I'm not comparing the US to Mother Theresa here). This is the spirit, you moral "peace lovers" !

What the US did, in spite of its failures, is to break the "comfort" of stability. And in doing this they, for selfish reasons according to many, freed a WHOLE COUNTRY. Again, the US, managed somehow to free a country. And the rest of the world, in the name of a stability, which wouldn't have lasted forever, are atacking the US like hungry vultures. And all in the name of "morality" and "stability".

The US, in your opinion, invaded Iraq for the wrong reasons, but something good came out ! Who knows how Iraq will look like in a few years, but the chances of another Saddam grabbing power are null.

I could go on like this forever, but there is no sense... I am not some Apostel of Peace, preaching to the World. If people like Unwichtig obviously don't even make a serious effort to understand how Iraqis felt why history was taking its course, there is no sense and no hope for a better future. I mean it !

Am I too emotional, maybe ? I don't believe so. All I do is looking around and observing behaviors. And it is looks bleak.

@WhatDoIKnow

Have a look here and tell me if you believe that these 10,000 dead Iraqi civilians and their relatives share your "spirit" and your view of "humanity".

@George M

Frustrating though it may be, if you run the risk of making things worse in an attempt to free a country, you should think twice. If you have to kill or mutilate people in order to set them free, this is a terrible choice. What is the price you are ready to pay for a forced liberation a country like Iraq? 1 civilian casualty? 10? 100? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? 1 Million?

Anyway, the job isn't done yet. Iraq isn't free, it occupied and unstable. Civilians are dying or being mutilated in the ongoing fights on a daily basis. This situation is attracting terrorists from other Arab countries. Saddam's terror regime has gone, but Islamic fundamentalists and international terrorists are now gaining power in Iraq.

Here are a two of the serious risks we are now facing in Iraq: (1) Iraq may become a second Iran. There is no way the US can stop that if - in the first free elections - the majority of the Iraqi people votes for a fundamentalist group. (2) Iraq may fall apart, torn by the rivalling groups of Shiites, Sunites and Kurds. This would further destabilize the entire region.

Needless to say that both options are not an improvement over the Saddam regime.

Unwichtig

You don't care about real lifes and destinies. You just use them in order to justify your beliefs. You use statistics to feel good. If you really care about body count, please make an extraordinary effort and think at the number of people who would have been killed if Saddam were still in power. For this, you can also use the numbers available everywhere to figure out how many Iraqis were killed by Saddam in one year.

And this should answer the quesion: is it worse to risk the lifes of civilians in order to free them ? Well, as long as MUCH LESS civilians will die as "collateral damage" than civilians killed by Saddam, the brutal answer is: YES !

You and your comrades don't want to know about real life. All you care is this disgusting self-righteousness and "international law". If this law hurts people instead of helping them, you don't care.

I will not continue with you on this subject. I just wanted to know how far you would go, how twisted your thinking is. You answered those questions... You and your comrades are a shame on the face of earth, but don't despair, international law is being respected.

If Berg's father really is a member of the extreme left-wing ANSWER, a group that's supported Stalin, Castro, and just about every other anti-U.S. dictator you could name, it's very significant news. The fact that this connection hasn't been made in either the German or US mainstream media in spite of the massive coverage of the family's accusations against Bush isn't surprising, but might be a useful data point for anyone still harboring illusions about the political leanings of the US media. Note also their gingerly treatment of Georgia Democrat Senator Zell Miller's open attack against Kerry yesterday. Question for the student: do you think the coverage would have been the same if a Republican senator had similarly attacked Bush? Finally, the media's "death by a thousand cuts" treatment of Rumsfeld continues today, with stories about how his policies were directly responsible for Abu Ghraib. Smells just like Watergate. I'm making no judgements about Rumsfeld one way or the other here. The point is that the German media and the US mainstream media both lean the same way politically. The only difference is that the German media is more extreme, and, of course, addicted to America bashing. A similar addiction is hardly nonexistent in this country, by the way. Persons so infected used to be called "blame America firsters." They've been keeping a rather low profile since 911.

@George
Ihr Europeaer, besonderes ihr Deutschen haben schmutziger Haende. Es ist fiest dass ihr heuschlich so viel Kritik und Anklage macht, aber in Realitaet, ihr seid eine Teil der Ursache die Menchenmord Sadam.

Der Ursache? Google mal "Saddam Hussein CIA". Sind all diese Berichte aus der Zeit der Machtübernahme von Saddam Hussein erfunden von der linken Presse?

Und sowohl Europa als auch USA haben fleissig mit Saddam gedealt, obowhl sie von seinen Menschenrechtsverletzungen wussten, wie auch mit Saudi-Arabien, China, etc. Nun mal bitte nicht die eine Seite als Menschenfreund darstellen.

Aber wenn ich das berüchtigte Handshake-Foto zwischen Saddam und Rumsfeld von Anfang der 80er sehe und dann dran denke, daß der selbe Mann heute auch Thema in Artikeln über fragwürdige Verhörmethoden ist (und ich persönlich halte auch die ausserhalb Iraks offiziellen erlaubten Verhörmethoden für sehr fraglich), dann frage ich mich schon:

Die USA hat 300 Millionen Menschen, viele davon sehr intelligent und fähig. Musste es der selbe Mann sein wie auf dem Foto?

Klink

It's scary how ideologically close you are to people like Unwichtig. Closer than you would think.

It's scary how ideologically close you are to people like Unwichtig. Closer than you would think.

I don't know about "Unwichtig", he is not my leveling rule. But I said before I am a member of amnesty international (an organization which is frequently bashed in the US-rightwing, BTW), so it's rather trivial to conclude that I do view several of the used methods as questionable at best.

So you apparently approve everything which is officially done, I assume?

@WhatDoIKnow

If saying "Ok, we killed you, but at least you're free now, and that's what counts" isn't self-righteous, then what is?

I am trying to explain why I think that the invasion of Iraq is running a serious risk of ending up in a situation worse than before. Your unconditional approval of an operation that costs thousands of lives and is not unlikely to end up in a failure, is totally misplaced.

What we need are people who think twice before risking other people's lives. We don't need people who run berserk in a crusade that fights one kind of terror with another kind of terror.

@ Klink

Ja, klar, versuche ich diesen Sommer zurückzufahren. Aber ich muss gucken wegen dem Geld.

Grossartig hat sich an der Sicherheitslage für die Iraker nichts verändert. Ausser, dass man nachts auch nicht Auto fahren kann, wegen den Sadr-Vampiren. Deswegen verstehe ich nicht das Geplapper von immer eskalierender Gewalt. Opferzahlen, Durchführung etc. zeigt ja eher, dass das immer auf einem gleichen Niveau geblieben ist, das Ausmass an Gewalt. Neu sind vielleicht die Entführung von Ausländern.

Deswegen verstehe ich die (vor allem) deutschen Medien, die immer von weiter eskalierender Gewalt sprechen. Irgendwann fliegt ja auch ein Druckkessel in die Luft. Ich höre das zwar seit einem Jahr, aber die grossangesagte Katastrophe (400.000 Tote) sehe ich immer noch nicht.

Ach ja, da du bei ai bist und PSL gerne liest, würde ich dir raten einen von beiden abzuwählen, weil ai & PSL passen nicht.

Comrade Unwichtig

Yes we killed your forefathers and you are free now.

Was that a fair trade for you.

Or do you prefer the old german way to the new "German Way"

Remember

Bush is Evil


Might you be thinking Hitler was good

Follow your dearly beloved leader


Comrade Unwichtig

How many of your forefathers died as a result of your nation's efforts to sow the seeds of the future across the most of Europe.

Was it worth it? Should we take a poll of those nations to see if they prefer the German way?

Or do you think those people did not want freedom? That is possible.

Is the rejection of freedom a part of the new "German Way". It surely seems to spread freedom to other nations is not part of this

This is the teachings of your dearly beloved leader.

Remember comrade.......


Bush is Evil

Freedom is only for the eurolanders.

@The "Bush is Evil" Guy

I guess you are referring to the liberation of Europe during WWII. Germany, at that time, was controlled by a highly aggressive regime that conquered one neighbour country after the other. Fighting Germany during WWII was plain self-defense. Do you understand the difference?

Iraq is no case of self-defense and your comparison is totally misplaced.

Comrade Unwichtig


I missed your answer on medical research. Are you in favor of stopping it because it has failed to find a cure for cancer?

Remember Comrade.....


Bush is Evil

Freedom comes from the UN and the EU

Long live the "German Way"

Follow the dearly beloved leader.

@The "Bush is Evil" Guy

I think you should leave this blog. You are not contributing to discussion about German Media.

Comrade Unwichtig

Is it not part of the "German Way" to have an open mind.

It is difficult not to comment when people like you choose to believe that the world only centers on your viewpoint.

It is obvious something has effected your knowledge. It has to be the elites you blindly follow. But then I guess that is the "German Way"

I see you lack the ability to answer simple direct questions. Such as the one I asked you about medical research. It does follow the logic you laid out for you reasonings. Do you lack courage?

Remember.....Comrade.....

Bush is Evil.


And now shout........

We love our elites

Follow the dearly beloved leader...


Feel better Comrade.. I have repented.

Comrade Unwichtig

AHA........an interesting way to look at history.
You attack everyone who is located near your nation and then claim you were only defending yourselves when they fight back.

Yes, I can see how that would make you feel better. It is much like the only child who kills his parents and askd for mercer because he is an oephan.

Comrade....are you an only child........are you an orphan....

Your logic is just stunning....


Remember ......

Follow the dearly beloved leader to the promise land.

Bush is Evil.

Comrade Unwichtig

If what you say about the dearly beloved leaders of the old "German Way"

Why did not the people rise up and cast him out. That is what you wanted the people of Iraq to do. To rise up and cast out their dearly beloved leader.

So you think the people of Iraq should have had more courage than the citizens of the fatherland.

That is a huge admission Comrade. It is not keeping in the spirit of the new "German Way"

You need now to also repent. You must shout 3 times Bush is Evil.

Bush is Evil
Bush is Evil
Bush is Evil

I know you feel better now. Now go enjoy your beer and say nice things about your dearly beloved leader.

Comrade Unwichtig

Which was the last war the fatherland fought?

Bush is Evil

What Unwichtig said:

"@The "Bush is Evil" Guy

I think you should leave this blog. You are not contributing to discussion about German Media."

Joe wastes a heck of a lot of bandwidth on inane chit-chat around here, doesn't he? Seems to take up half the discussion with the same nonsense lines over and over.

Comrade Unwichtig

I know answers are difficult for you. Some of this is not keeping with the "German Way"

I might suggest you contact an elite or someone from Big fatherland Media or your dearly beloved leader.

I am sure they will help you answer these questions

medical research
German courage
the last war of liberation Germany fought.


I look forward to your answers.

Remember......

Bush is Evil

@Murky

I wait for you to share your own brillance. If you are having trouble posting then maybe you should speak to David.

Reasonable?


@ joe:

how about some fresh air?

btw, in WW2 not only the US, but most of Europe fought against the Nazis - France, UK, Russia, Poland...

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