SPIEGEL ONLINE: "America Killing and Systematically Torturing Thousands of Iraqis with Government Backing"

(By Ray D.)

SPIEGEL ONLINE has gone into absolute feeding-frenzy mode over the abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison. It seems that the magazine, in its ceaseless quest to defame the Bush Administration, has completely lost touch with reality. In a recent article, SPIEGEL author Reinhard Mohr writes:

“But no doubt...investigation and apology or not: America, the leading power of the West…is obviously continuing to kill and torture civilians in a systematic way by the hundreds, if not thousands, with the backing of the political and military leadership.”

The fact that America is investigating and rectifying the situation (as a democracy should) is minimized. SPIEGEL ONLINE makes it look as if the United States is killing and torturing on a daily basis in Iraq on orders from the government, putting the nation on the same level with Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il.

But then one has to ask: If the government supports such actions, why would it apologize and investigate them? How could a government in which “the Senate voted 92-0 Monday for a resolution condemning the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison [and] urging a full and complete investigation” still support such actions? How could a President who has repeatedly expressed “deep disgust and disbelief" at the abuse photos still support such actions?

The answer: The government does not support such actions and has already implemented mechanisms to detect and punish abuse which were already in motion before this scandal ever made headlines. SPON seems to be following a typical pattern which it has established for itself: If you repeat a lie loudly enough and often enough, people may start to believe it. Especially if those people are inclined to America-bashing as it is.

What do the Pictures Really Tell Us about America?

A picture is worth a thousands words. And according to SPIEGEL ONLINE, the pictures released recently of a small group of US soldiers mistreating Iraqi prisoners "offer no way out" of the “disastrous” moral dilemma in which America now supposedly finds itself:

“...the talk of liberation sounds hollow, regardless of how much mass murder Saddam’s bloody rule caused and how undemocratic the Arab world is to this day! Also the mention of Chechnyan torture chambers, in which Russian soldiers can do what they want unnoticed by the world community, is no way out. (…) The moral values (of the democratic West) appear, and are now officially documented, as pure hypocrisy.”

But isn’t the fact that this has all been noticed precisely the point? In a democracy like the USA these types of abuses actually do see the light of day and are discussed, investigated and punished in an open and orderly way. That is not a moral disaster for democracy, it is a moral victory. Would it have been less hypocritical for the USA to cover-up incidents of abuse and torture as the Russians do in Chechnya or as Saddam’s government did? Once again, SPIEGEL ONLINE has managed to stand morality on its head...

Comments

[Sandy P]

AQ's beheaded on of our people in "retaliation."

Supposedly Zahwiri (sp) did it.

So what was the reason for Danny Pearl's beheading????

[Gabi]

"The video pictures of the execution showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit — similar to a prisoner's uniform — who identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. civilian whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.

"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."

There was no way to be certain the tape was authentic.

After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-11-iraq-beheading_x.htm

-------------------------------------------------
What do you feel when you read this?

[Gabi]

Da war so viel Empörung über die Erniedrigungen und Mißhandlungen der irakischen Gefangenen. Sie haben überlebt. Jetzt dieses Köpfen eines Amerikaners. - Ich weiß schon jetzt, daß dies keine Empörung in deutschen Medien hervorrufen wird. Die Schändung der vier Leichen im April war auch nur Angelegenheit der Amerikaner. Empörung darüber so wie jetzt den Amerikanern gegenüber wegen der Mißhandlungen habe ich nirgendwo gefühlt, gelesen.

Eine Frau legt einem nackten Mann ein Halsband um und grinst dümmlich in die Kamera.

Ein Mann nimmt ein Messer und trennt jemanden den Kopf ab.

Warum fühlen die Deutschen nichts beim Letzteren? Warum läßt es sie kalt? Achselzucken? Warum erschreckt die erste Situation mehr?

Ich verstehe das nicht. Ich finde das krank.

[Marabut]

In Spiegel online and on Spiegel TV these gangsters are already being called freedom fighters!

[Klink]

@Frau Gabriele
Eine Frau legt einem nackten Mann ein Halsband um und grinst dümmlich in die Kamera.
Ein Mann nimmt ein Messer und trennt jemanden den Kopf ab.
Warum fühlen die Deutschen nichts beim Letzteren? Warum läßt es sie kalt?

Ihre Pauschal-Unterstellungen gegenüber den Deutschen nehmen immer surrealere Züge an, Frau Gabriele.

[Unwichtig]

@Gabi

Die Leute, die dem Amerikaner den Kopf abgeschnitten haben, sind Terroristen. Dass bei denen nix mehr zu retten ist, wissen wir. Sie sind ja gerade einer der Gründe, warum die Amerikaner in den Irak einmarschiert sind. Dieser Einsatz kostet irrsinnig viel Geld, fordert viele menschliche Opfer und spaltet die westliche Welt. Warum man sich über die Misshandlung der irakischen Gefangenen aufregen muss? Weil sie dem Kampf gegen den Terrorismus einen solchen Tiefschlag versetzt haben, dass das ganze Unternehmen zu scheitern droht. In meinen Augen können die Amerikaner im Irak ihre Koffer packen. DAS ist das Schlimme!

[Ray D.]

Warum man sich über die Misshandlung der irakischen Gefangenen aufregen muss? Weil sie dem Kampf gegen den Terrorismus einen solchen Tiefschlag versetzt haben, dass das ganze Unternehmen zu scheitern droht. In meinen Augen können die Amerikaner im Irak ihre Koffer packen. DAS ist das Schlimme!

Wenn wir von Pauschal-Unterstellungen reden wollen...dann ist das wohl auch eine. Nicht "die Amerikaner" haben die Misshandlungen begangen sondern nur wenige die ganz klar Ihren Macht misbraucht haben und jetzt entsprechend bestraft werden.

Da sollen wir auch genaustens aufpassen, dass wir nicht alle Amerikaner für schuldig sprechen. Die meisten Amerikaner, inklusiv Pres. Bush, sind absolut empört, dass solche Misshandlungen überhaupt stattfinden konnten.

[George M]

@ Gabi

I am so pissed off right now. Thank you CBS in exposing this story to the world. You have officially killed an American civilian. That's right, Al Quida did not have the guts to kidnap a solider, so they kidnapped a civilian who was working on the Iraqi infrastructure.

This story had already been investigated by Major General Taguba. Court martials were already scheduled for those responsible. This could have all been quietly handled. Instead, CBS wanted rateings, and decided to broadcast the story across the world. I fear that other Americans and Coalition contractors will become victims of Al Quada.

Thank you Spiegel for your denial that there is no connection between Irak and Al Queda. These cock roaches have been there since the beginning.

@Klink

Was ist dir schlimmer? Der Kopf zu verlieren oder am Hals umgefuhrt zu werden mit einer 45 Kilogram Frau an die Line?

Surrealisticsh?

Klink, was fuer Logik in Dutschland heute gelent. Wo hast du deine Abitur gekriegt? Kaufhof?

[Ralf]

@Gabi

"Warum fühlen die Deutschen nichts beim Letzteren? Warum läßt es sie kalt? Achselzucken? Warum erschreckt die erste Situation mehr?"

Also wirklich, was soll der Unsinn?

Die Empörung über diesen brutalen Akt gegenüber dem amerik. Gefangenen steht jedem ins Gesicht geschrieben. In allen Medien wird mit großer Abscheu über dieses unglaubliche, terroristische Verbrechen -zu recht- berichtet. Und du hast die Nerven so einen Quatsch zu schreiben. Du enttäuschst mich sehr. Deine Postings entfernen sich immer mehr von der Wirklichkeit. Schade.

Auf welcher Insel lebst Du? Überlege vorher, wenn Du von "den Deutschen" redest. Ich verbitte mir diese unfundierten Verallgemeinerungen.

Ich persönlich und all die Menschen, die ich kenne verspüren immer große Abscheu, wenn Verbrechen oder Terrorakte verübt werden, egal ob gegen Juden, Christen oder andere Menschen gerichtet.

Die schrecklichen Morde an Israelis durch pal. Terroristen und nun aktuell an Ausländer im Irak sind nicht zu vergleichen mit den Mißhandlungen der irak. Gefangenen. Mord ist immer schlimmer, egal an wen verübt.
Aber vergiß nicht, wir sind die GUTEN, wir morden nicht, wir sollten weder foltern noch Gefangene mißhandeln.

Dennoch, wie kommst Du dazu zu behaupten, die Deutschen würden die Verbrechen der Al-Kaida "kalt" lassen?
Erkläre mir das bitte!

[ch.speicher]

gabi,

remember

"The moral values (of the democratic West) appear, and are now officially documented, as pure hypocrisy."

whereas the headcutters have clear moral standards, ie

"kill 'em all, praise allah"

btw:

germans in general have still there traditional uncorrupt values (of self-righteousness) and they even LOVE americans (if beheaded), you must be crazy to be in any doubt about the virtuousness of the german race, which has a so much greater share in humanity than those anglo-american apes that sooner burned germany for no reason and now kill AND humiliate zillions of helpless goodwilling muslims just for fun

[Klink]

Klink, was fuer Logik in Dutschland heute gelent. Wo hast du deine Abitur gekriegt? Kaufhof?

Do you still beat your wife, George?

Perhaps Gabi's logic is now better understood.

[Unwichtig]

@Ray

Mir ist natürlich völlig klar, dass die Entgleisungen von einer Minderheit begangen wurden. Entscheidend ist doch die Glaubwürdigkeit der Amerikaner und Briten gegenüber den Irakern und der arabischen Welt. Da reicht schon EINE Entgleisung. Das ist Mission-critical! Die Amerikanische Militärführung hätte ihren Soldaten morgens, mittags und abends einhämmern müssen, dass sie Respekt vor den Irakern zeigen müssen, wenn sie deren Vertrauen gewinnen wollen. Da reichen schon kleinste Verfehlungen bei Hausdurchsuchungen, um den Hass der Iraker heraufzubeschwören. Diese Fotos jetzt sind das Aus, das ist nicht mehr zu reparieren - jedenfalls nicht in dieser Generation. Die Entschuldigungen von Bush und Rumsfeld sind zwar wichtig, aber sie kommen zu spät. Auf der Schautafel (auf dem Bild von Dir) zeigt Rumsfeld, wie früh er Bescheid wusste. Warum hat er sich dann nicht früher entschuldigt?

[Ralf]

@ Ray D.

"Wenn wir von Pauschal-Unterstellungen reden wollen...dann ist das wohl auch eine. Nicht "die Amerikaner" haben die Misshandlungen begangen sondern nur wenige die ganz klar Ihren Macht misbraucht haben und jetzt entsprechend bestraft werden.

Da sollen wir auch genaustens aufpassen, dass wir nicht alle Amerikaner für schuldig sprechen. Die meisten Amerikaner, inklusiv Pres. Bush, sind absolut empört, dass solche Misshandlungen überhaupt stattfinden konnten."

Vollkommen richtig! Ich habe diese Pauschalbeschuldigungen und Verallgemeinerungen so unglaublich satt.

Ich habe in der US Navy und in der Bundesmarine gedient, mich hat jede Pauschalierung ("Soldaten sind Mörder") angewidert. Ich weiß, daß in jeder Armee Dinge passieren, die nicht sein dürfen. Schlimmere und weniger schlimme Vorgänge. das ist natürlich schlecht.
Aber im Zusammenhang mit den Mißhandlungen irakischer Gefangene duch "die" amerik. Soldaten zu sprechen ist eine bodenlose Frechheit.
Es soll bewußt die braven und korrekt handelnden US-Soldaten ebenso wie ihre Aufgabe diskreditieren.

Und @GABI, daß ist aller Empörung wert.

Noch was: Ich finde gerade Soldaten der US Armee und auch der Bundeswehr (Kosovo und Afga.) verhalten sich sonst anerkannt vorbildlich, wo auch immer sie eingesetzt werden. Meine alten Kameraden aus meiner Navy-Zeit mit denen ich sprechen konnte, sind wie ich entsetzt über die Aktionen einiger weniger US Soldaten.

[grumpy dwarf]

@ Gabi

Gabi, you don't need to explain yourself to any unqualified numbskulls such as those who have posted above. this just shows their lack of proper education and breeding. They are most likely supporters of terrorists here in Europe.

[ch.speicher]

and how dare you say germans in their majority would rather like to read about "nazionistic anglo-american warpigs systematically slaughter iraqi prisoners" than about "aq is (maybe) really bad"

what clue do you have for this silly fantasy?

I mean what OTHER clue than this blog and SPON and STERN and EVERY german tv and radio station?

you must be crazy, gabi ;)

it is obvious that you haven't got a clue ch. speicher. so stfu!

[ch.speicher]

*g*

[Klink]

grumpy dwarf wrote
Gabi, you don't need to explain yourself to any unqualified numbskulls such as those who have posted above. this just shows their lack of proper education and breeding. They are most likely supporters of terrorists here in Europe.

Sad how the tragic death of this young man was immediately instrumentalized here (Gabi being first) to blame "the Germans feel nothing" and to call now other posters here even "supporters of terrorists".

In other news, I had just been on the phone to a US-friend of mine. No word about political spinning, just sadness and anger over this young man's death. What a difference compared to some of the posters on here. Free your mind, people. Geeesh.

[ch.speicher]

"Free your mind, people."

ok,

I think youre NTH but a big liar and have NO problem to pretend deepest compassion or even make up some "american friend", if it fits your obstruction and defamations, you blithering idiot

[Maranna]

Hi, guys,

Here's an article that I'm very sure won't get published unless pigs fly and Hell freezes over:

http://ace.mu.nu/

Auf wiedersehen.

[Joe]

It will be interesting to see if Europe and the German press will have as much moral outrage as they have toward America.

Given I just clicked on the google news for Germany and did a machince translation the only report was about some one in Switzerland ranking about her outrage of American abuse.

[Maranna]

Well, Joe,

Are you surprised?

I'm not.

[Unwichtig]

@Joe, @Maranna

Why don't you look at the SPIEGEL, for a change: "An Grausamkeit kaum zu überbieten." ("Hardly to be surpassed in cruelty.") Do you actually read German media, or do you just talk about it?

[Joe]

@Unwichtig,

Let us see how long and to what degree this plays out in the German media. Let us wait and see if the same level of outrage continues as long as it has against America.

Let us see the position of the German government and their moral outrage.

It is much to early to judge any of these reactions.

[Joe]

@Maranna

Please do not be fooled by the link you provided. While it says a lot of nice words what is driving those words are pure fear. The fear of what America is going to do and what are going to be the reactions of Americans.

Some here have at times questioned how the bombing of Dresden or the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan could occur. Trust me when I say this, this is, but one step on a road to something like that happening again.

As I have pointed out I think the US has done a very poor job at winning the hearts and minds of many of the people in Iraq. I do think this is very important. Equally important is to separate hearts from minds. It will be interesting to see when this time comes.

For me personally, I hope the video gets played 24/7 here for the next week. It will be good for Americans to see this. Then I hope there is someone from Germany or a liberal or CBS to come on and lecture Americans about the abuse of having men stand naked in a cell for 23 hours a day.

The comparison will be just what is needed to clearly show the silliness of the Europeans and the barbarism of most of the Arab world.

[Maranna]

Oh, yes, Unwichtig, I do. Really....I do.

But, somehow, the level of vociferous denunciations and outrage are rather wanting. No clarion calls against these thugs, etc.

As I said before, I'm not surprised.

@Unwichtig,

You must use another web site than I do to read SPIEGEL. I see a lead article. Then the rest of the start page is about US abuse in Iraq. I guess this is to be considered balanced coverage in Germany.

So be it.

[Unwichtig]

There is no outrage against America. What we have is a profound disappointment and distrust with the way the Bush Administration is performing in Iraq. And you find that everywhere in the world, including the US.

[Maranna]

Well, Unwichtig, this won't be the first time the US has done things her own way, rather than the EU way. And, it won't be the last.

Otherwise, nothing would get done.

I know you don't agree, but there it is. Agreement is not necessary.

[Joe]

@Unwichtig,

Well this might very well disappoint you but this probably has done more to help him and his bid for election than anything.

I would say you and the rest of the world had better start to adjust and get use to the idea that he may be around for 4 more years.

And on so many levels I frankly don't care whether you trust the US or not. Surely the US should have little or no trust in so called allies like france and Germany.

[Joe]

I hope for the reasons I have stated you all realize Big Media in the US will not show this vedio. It would have the opposite effect of what their goal is, which is to insure that President Bush is not reelected again.

That is just the way it is.

[Unwichtig]

@Joe, Maranna

I am trying to keep America and the Bush Administration apart, and you continue to talk about US, EU or Germany as a whole. No one wants America to fail in Iraq or in its fight against terrorism. I was actually in favor of the invasion of Iraq. What I am saying is that the Bush Administration (and not America) has displayed an extraordinary level of incompetence in Iraq. The won the war, yes, but they are about to fail at nation building. They fail to win the hearts of the people. And if they fail, things are going to be worse than before the invasion. No-one wants that, and this is why you find so much Anti-Bushism in the European press. What you do not find, however, is Anti-Americanism.

[Thomas]

The point is this: Yes, there is disgust about these murderers. But it's "I-told-you-so"-disgust. Every German article I read (a lot of American ones as well, to be fair) about these horrible events talks of "revenge". Although nobody does in effect justify this reasoning, its endless repetition helps to put a good share of the blame on the Americans themselves: They have tortured people, so they shouldn't be surprised.

This is the same kind of reasoning we heard after 9/11, but only on the political fringes at that time. It has now become commonplace. It was similar after the Fallujah mutilations: The Americans, lacking every understanding of the local culture and being too brutal in their fight against the "resistance" had "provoked" this act.

What people should realize is that those criminals do not _react_ because of legitimate grievances. They use such things as a fig leaf of justification for acts they would commit anyway. This "I-told-you-so"-reasoning and all the buck-passing that follows is exactly what those guys want to create to divide the Western world.

The only thing we can do is keep cool. Blame those soldiers who tortured Iraqis for what they have done, but don't blame them for this assassination. Blame the government for lack of control over the chain of command which allowed the torture incidents to happen, but don't blame them for this assassination. Blame CBS for having their own economic agenda, but don't blame them for this assassination. The only ones to blame are those who did this. (By the way, Ben Wedeman just said on CNN that almost every Iraqi he talked to was abhorred by this barbarous act.) Everyone who subscribes to the view that this was "revenge", follows the terrorists' reasoning. We should not grant them this success. We should realize that those people are our enemies. They didn't like us Westerners before Abu Ghraib, they don't like us now and they never will. Abu Ghraib hurt our efforts to win those hearts and minds that can perhaps still be won. But nothing could win the hearts and minds of these murderers. This was no "revenge". This was an act of war, one of many such acts. Those guys will get their fair share for it.

[Klink]

ch speicher
I think youre NTH but a big liar and have NO problem to pretend deepest compassion or even make up some "american friend", if it fits your obstruction and defamations, you blithering idiot

You said earlier you were afraid to set a foot into Hamburg-Schanzenviertel and that you would even stay home on May 1st, but behind your keyboard you are suddenly the big macho-man with ad hominem insults like "FOAD" or "blithering idiot".

Grow up, speicher. Take an example in Ray & David: They are obviously also often not of the same opinion as me, but we treat each other with the same politeness we would as in real life.

I also don't feel like engaging in answering any of your new sillyness right now after having seen these pictures.

[Dennis]

"Some here have at times questioned how the bombing of Dresden or the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan could occur. Trust me when I say this, this is, but one step on a road to something like that happening again."

That was a good laugh ! Even Bush isnt so stupid. ;)

[Xixi]

Speaking of winning hearts and minds.

Germany's media and politicans are making darn sure that Germany will have a deep hole to climb out of if they ever need to win American hearts and minds. Of course, they won't have the need. They're Dhimmis in waiting.

[Joe2]

No, unwichtig - what we have is an emotional rage caused by making oneself emotionally enraged. With no view of anything larger, the smaller minds and lesser souls of the world will point to these events and compare them to the worst calamities - why? Simple. When a protester type KNOWS that they are standing in morally thin ice, the only choices one has is to either admit to oneself to being wrong (yeah - fat chance), or go deeper and drink ALL the kool-aid... To believe anything that supports one's shaky views.

It make the story of prisoner abuse no less a case of abuse. Those soldiers will find themselves making licence plates at Fort Leavenworth. But to usae it as a morality play is idiotic. Global affairs are not about protecting the feelings of leftist, or, for that matter anyone else. It is about making a deal with other nations. Where no deal can be made, there is taking away from those who wish you dead their ability to harm your citizens.
To do anything less is to be negligent. For a few minutes in the past millenium our lives need to not revolve around a handful of Europeans and their unsure emotions. When were finished, they can have our undivided attention again.

[Maranna]

@Unwichtig

I understand your point about nation building.
I think that once the security is won (I mean the insurgents tossed out or mowed down, whichever you prefer) and the Iraqis heavily involved in their own nation building and security, with appropriate UN involvement, and our troops in the far background, all of us will be much happier campers. (nauseating term, can't believe I used it!). The glass will truly be getting full. But, as we speak a major battle proceeds in Najaf. However, there is popular local support against Sadr.

May that day come soon. I have already bought the champagne and votive candles for remembrance.

P. S. Sorry about the run-on sentence. Couldn't stop.

[Joe]

Denis,

I have to assume you are German. If you are I suggest you do some research on how the allies handled the German Werewolves after Germany surrendered at the end of the second world war.

I would not rule out anything if this should escalate. It might very well come down to a position that President Bush has no other option because the American people will demand it.

Your comment shows how insulated you are.

[Joe]

@Unwichtig,

Yes Americans like myself are overwhelmed with the support Europe has provided the US to insure that Iraq is not a failure. I know if I think things are bad now I cannot imagine what they would be like without the help provided by Germany and france.

I do not know what the German people think about this. What I do know is the German elites in your media, in your government, in your universities hope America fails.

The majority of the German population seem to share those same views or that is what your public opinion polls show. There seems to be little difference in the attitude of your elites or of the German citizens.

[Klink]

@Thomas
Every German article I read (a lot of American ones as well, to be fair) about these horrible events talks of "revenge".

Often quoting though, as in "His captors say ...".(been only to Tagesspiegel and CNN thus far)

The only ones to blame are those who did this.

I'd agree with you on this and find the blame-game right now from both political sides against the opposing side quite strange and counter-productive. These are the terrorists who were around in the 90s and who only seek new territories/reasons to rear their heads against us. Iraq just came in handy for them, else it would have been something else as fig-leaf. The terrorists actually want this bi-partisan blame-game right now.

@Joe
Denis, I have to assume you are German. If you are I suggest you do some research on how the allies handled the German Werewolves after Germany surrendered at the end of the second world war.

Yeah, those mighty Werwölfe. LOL. Any Germans interested might read about Goebbels's legend at IDGR here - a credible and serious German site on Nazis and Anti-Semitism. Quote from IDGR:

"Die Untergrund-Kampfgruppen, die sich unter dem Namen "Werwolf" formierten, als das Ende des "Dritten Reiches" schon in Sicht war, waren wenig mehr als eine Durchhalteparole."

[Unwichtig]

@Joe2

Eh, Joe2, I'm talking about the emotions of the Iraqi people and the Arab world, not about European emotions. America is trying to fight international terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism. If they do so by enraging the Arab world, they are wasting their money. You definitely have a lot of Anti-Americanism in the Arab world. From an external point of view, it looks like the Bush Administration is doing everything to encourage and to foster Anti-Americanism in the Arab world. Of course, they don't do this on purpose, they are doing this by incompetence. And the Europeans can but stand by and see how the Bush Administration is turing its engagement in Iraq into a total disaster.

[James]

A sad time has come in the course of human events where we must redefine America's relationship with several of our former allies, particularly Germany.

I can think of no other relationship where there such a willful desire to destroy the precious relationships of the past. Furthermore, I can think of no other nation who has liberally spun poisonous webs of deceit and obfuscation.

Given the SPDs ( and their Sidekick magazine der Spiegel ) constant hostile attitude towards the US, the time has come for us to come to love them by leaving them. Let us embark on a new syllabus of study : allow for the Germans and EU to provide for their own defense.

In the meantime, a few reminders:

*Credits from The Marshall Plan remain unpaid
*No significant Monument exists in Germany thanking the Americans for the Berlin Airlift ( why didn't you just go the UN?)
*Germany has never fought for freedom
Germany has killed far more in the name of Socialism than all deaths by the American military combined

The most important question remains, what will happen in Germany in the next few years when,

1) Your economy continues at its anemic pace ( USA 3.3% over the past 10 years, GY 1.4% - below EU average )
2) There is no improvement in unemployment figures, in fact it is likely to worsen given EU expansion
3) Your jealously and contempt of the successfull US grows

Continue to complain about the US and Iraq. Simply put, we couldn't allow another fascist deranged dictator to continue to fan hatred in an area of the world the has our complete attention since 9/11. Can't you understand that? The military was the only alternative to handle such a madman. Recall recent successful usage of the American military in Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia (oh, and Hitler). And I think that herein lies the crux of the difference between Germans and Americans: Americans and Anglos are PROUD of their military and they TRUST their TRADITIONAL INSTITUTIONS that control them. Whereas, the Germans are PROUD of their (rather new) INSTITUTIONS that have negated the need for usage of their MILITARY. This is completely understandable given their past, but it supports my argument that they have never fought for the freedoms that they now enjoy. Don't you recall your parents telling you that you would feel more proud of something once you worked for it?? Having nothing to look back upon with pride and nothing to look forward to with hope and you have a nation of German nihilists.

I'm not sure for all of you, but I sit here in Germany and watch and observe with a skeptical eye. I think that Germany is in an irreversible spiral of decline. Demographics are shifting to the old, the pension system is kaput. People don't want to work, economic growth will only happen if foreign workers come by the millions. And I find it rather unlikely that "ein Nation der Deutschen der Deutsch bleiben soll" has the capability to do so.

But really, our President expanding democracy in (yet) another part of the world is a greater threat to the world than Hussien. No Kanzler spin-doctor can evade the truths for too long. As for me, I'm leaving Germany, and slamming the door behind me...

[Dennis]

This isn't a discussion about Germany closely after WW2. The Germany of today is much diffrent. America too. You implicated another unvalid generalization. I suggest to read some of Kant's works about epistemology and enlightenment. He was a great german. :)
But you aren't serious about using nuclear weapons on europe or arab nations ? Is that another instrument of the "war against terror" ? If so, do you think the world would survive a war between the us and europe. Do you think the terrorists would be "shocked and awed" enough ? Do the questions sound ridiculous to you ?

[Joe]

@Unwichtig,

That the Arab world is upset with America is nothing new. This has been going on ever since the US chose to support the only democracy in the ME.

I am sure that you Europeans would have done a much better job than the US is now doing. I know it is all about root causes. Of course, this has been the position of the EU, and Germany for some time now. But like most things that political organizations do in Europe there is confusion over the fact words are in themselves not actions. Sometimes you have to actually do something besides talking about it.

@Klink,

I knew you would not disappoint me. I love the way you just attempt to throw the conversation off into a different direction.

What I wanted Denis to discover along with some of your fellow citizens was just how the allies dealt with the werewolves. What actions they took and to whom.

That was the history lession for Denis. It was about shooting people, bombing cities and villages, collecting hostage and exccuting them, etc.

[Dennis]

history lesson....I feel educated now....lol

[Joe]

Denis,

Yes I have read Kant's works. I am glad you have. I hope you embrace it all.

[Maranna]

@Unwichtig

You said:

"From an external point of view, it looks like the Bush Administration is doing everything to encourage and to foster Anti-Americanism in the Arab world. Of course, they don't do this on purpose, they are doing this by incompetence"

I disagree. The Arab world has hated Americans for a long time now. Largely due to our support of Israel, and other things. Nothing is going to change that. Which would you rather do? Support a democracy (Israel) and show their Arab neighbors it can certainly be done? Or support more dictatorships. It has been bad enough doing that for the sake of "stability in the region" and expedience (Cold War, at al that).

I don't think the "old" ways work. I don't think the people under the dictators we have supported appreciated the world-view of "stability within the region" and all that claptrap. I know I wouldn't have, if I had been unfortunate to live under said dictatorships. Every one of them has been pretty darn brutal, and the people got nothing out of it because all the aid and goods were stolen by the elites. So much for "heroic elites".

So, the only thing left is to actually make your stand. Dialogues have not worked heretofore, especially with the Palestinians. It makes one appear weak. Hells bells, if the Camp David agreement with Clinton and Baruk didn't cut the mustard with Arafat, what the heck would. Oh, I know...the utter annihilation of Israel.

Would you stand for that?

P. S. Pardon my spelling.

P.P.S. Here's an interesting read:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/102gwtnf.asp

[Joe]

Denis,

I had not considered Europe as a place to use nuclear weapons. You may think Germany has changed and I would agree with you. I tend to disagree with you about the fundamental changes in Americans.

If you do not think the use of nuclear weapons is not possible then you are very wrong. Why do you think the Defense Science Board recommended and Congress approved funding for a new class of small nuclear weapons? This new class of weapons will have maxim destructive power with limited collateral damage. To those who will be at center of mass this will however be a moot point.

To answer your last question there will not be a war between the US and Europe. Most of Europe, with a few exceptions, lacks not only the means but more importantly the will to fight. This is why I have to assume Germany is allowing the french to run their foreign policy.