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@more human than human
Why, was the omission sanctioned from on high?

The SPIEGEL-article made IMO pretty clear how the German Army withdrew because of silly technical definitions as excuse and also quoted Struck (the defense minister) being still in rather denial mode over the apparent facts on the ground, even praising the troops for "not escalating the situation" - in sharp contrast to the situation on the ground, like even the open anger of *German* UN-policemen for being left unprotected by German troops.

As Jens said, Kosovo as a whole has become a farce for years now, all sectors really. We'll see more of the same in the future, sadly. I wished German, US or other media wouldn't have turned such a blind eye on this issue.in the past years (with the exception of a handfull of journalists).

And are you really telling me

No. And I haven't told you anything for a while now.

@anonymous at 3:26:

On the blog linked earlier by Joe (see link below), there is an update that says: "UPDATE II. SBS television just showed German news footage of Ani making his disputed claim -- and that's all. No mention of anybody calling him a liar."

And because of that I retracted my previous question if anyone had reported on this weirdo yet.


@anonymous at 3:26:

This guy said he was tortured - which was reported - and then it turned out he was a fraud. It was reported that he was tortured, and Joe wondered if there would be a correction/retraction of that.

@more human than human,

So far I have not seen any pictures that have shown torture. I am however not sure if I have seen all the pictures which have been published.

And of course, if someone is beaten to death that would very much fall into what would be considered to be torture.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It was not my link. I would have never found something like that.

This does not have a lot to do with this topic but then again it does have to do with US/European relations.

On May 6, Senator Joe Biden, the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committe gave a speech at the John Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) in Washington, D.C.

Should the democrats gain control of the Senate he would become the chairman of this committe.

If you go to this link


and then click on the hear Keynote speech I think you will find his comments to be interesting.

Klink always like to chatter about being critical of the Bush administration. This is how that is done in a positive manner.


"It was not my link. I would have never found something like that"

Was that not you at 2:53 p.m. above?


The dog incident I referred to at 3:36 above can be found here (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2):

"One of the new photographs shows a young soldier, wearing a dark jacket over his uniform and smiling into the camera, in the corridor of the jail. In the background are two Army dog handlers, in full camouflage combat gear, restraining two German shepherds. The dogs are barking at a man who is partly obscured from the camera’s view by the smiling soldier. Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away. Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmate’s leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood."

The article features the second picture mentioned above.

Different Joe. There are 2 of us. We do this to drive Klink mad.....

More than Human... "Theresa, I think you're absolutely correct in saying that the soldiers themselves are accountable. However, by the same logic so are any superior officers, however high up the chain, who were aware of such behavior and tolerated it. Would you agree with that?"

I agree. Those who were AWARE of it and did nothing share responsibility. But it is extremely doubtful that anyone in Washington was aware. The abuses were discovered in January, a public announcement was made at a press conference, and the investigations into them were started the very next day. For that to have happened, someone on the ground in Iraq had to have been the highest person "aware" of the immediate situations. Washington and the Pentagon don't make decisions that quickly ;).

Now if it turns out that there is some sort of training going on in the units that train the intelligence or military police officers, then that must also be investigated. But I seriously doubt that Washington knew about it until January. Apparently, the only thing the Pentagon did "wrong" (to the view of many) was to keep the pictures out of the media, which was proper procedure due to the fact that there was an ongoing investigation.

Matthias: The translation to "secret service" is understood. No problem... just thought I'd clear up that there really IS a "Secret Service" that has nothing to do with the Defense Dept :). No harm done :).

Just for your interest, as some governments like pointing at others not fulfilling their obligations from UN resolutions here is a good one for Germany, the US, Nato in general, Serbia...


OK, I guess it isn't easy to comply with this resolution, but feel free to remind me of this view next time I get a bit over the top in my demandings for the US government. Also I don't even see a lot of effort by my government to make any progress on the issue. So far about UN resolutions.

@more human than human,

I noted your comments contributed to bremmer were more about conditions and processing than about abuse or torture, are so it would seem from reading what you posted.

Here is an interesting link. A bit of a different take. I can tell you first hand that what is said about the psy-ops is true. I factually know this.


@Joe at 4:51 p.m.:

"Different Joe. There are 2 of us. We do this to drive Klink mad....."

Thanks for clarifying. Guess that makes it confusing for both of you. And everyone else. Poor Klink.

@Joe at 3:45 p.m.:

"Thanks for clearing that up.

It was not my link. I would have never found something like that."

It was the other Joe.

@more human than human,

One of the first things I learned here is that Europeans have no difficultly in dealing with complex issues. Therefore to have 2 Joe's might be confusing for other people for most it is just not an issue.


The International Komitee of the Red Cross (IKRK) reported the Information about tortures and abuses latest at December/january 2003/2004. Amnesty International reported abuses latest at July 2003 to the officials.

More Pictures shows the sexual abuses of women and young males trough US soldiers and iraqi people comming to death.

When i look in the Faces of the US soldiers during her "work" it looks like to me that they have a lot of "fun". Really "outstanding" Work!

Since the installation of Guantanamo the americans opend the door to Hell. They defeated succsessfully Human Rights, Law and Order.

Bush and Consorten are fanatics. It is just a normal human way, that human rights, law and order are the first victims of fanatics. On the same token it is quite normal that they believe, they are a better than other humans, and to install a thinking of "second class people".

@ Mathesar

Your source must have greater details than I have been able to find on the web. The sources I have read have spoken only of abuse.

Would you mind sharing your soucre.

Thank you.


(Just an aside, I'm not more than human, and not really even more human than human. It's just a phrase from Blade Runner that kind of stuck with me.)

"Those who were AWARE of it and did nothing share responsibility. But it is extremely doubtful that anyone in Washington was aware."

Are you including Rumsfeld in that? General Abizaid?

"In August, Bremer became alarmed about the treatment of detainees and prison conditions. After interceding in one detainee's case, he urged the U.S. military in Iraq and top Bush administration officials to improve conditions and avoid potential fallout, according to U.S. officials."


Yes, an investigation to clarify this would certainly be in order. Who in the U.S. military in Iraq? Which top Bush administration officials? What did they do about it? And those who were aware and did nothing should share responsibility.

"Now if it turns out that there is some sort of training going on in the units that train the intelligence or military police officers, then that must also be investigated."

By all means.

@anonymous at 9:07:

Yeah, as long as they don't start complaining that they never said this or that.

Here is an interesting link. A bit of a different take. I can tell you first hand that what is said about the psy-ops is true. I factually know this.

What an article. It works well everywhere to humiliate somebody, when you force them to simulate sexual acts in front of others and/or cameras for entertainment, even here in the West (-> Prisons). But we in the West usually leave such classic dominance-methods to Third-world-dictators. Here's as a reminder first from Seymour Hersh's article:

"Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded."

And here is the cynical summary-message from above's right-wing Frontpage's article:

Whether intentional or not, the prison photos have sent a message about strength, dominance, and especially the power of women over men in a society that cannot bear such an inversion of "the proper order." It is a profound message.

Has anyone noticed that we virtually walked into Najaf this week, unopposed? Al-Sadr did nothing---in fact, he moved his operations into the British zone, after all his bluster! Has anyone noticed that Fallujah is quiet? Very few roadside bombs/suicide bombs in the last couple of days. This could all change, but it is eerie that when a message of power is sent out all over the Middle East---unintentionally on our part---it resonates. Big time.

Just like it would resonate in Sing-Sing prison, New York, no? Duh.

@more human than human

Read your link and the reference in the article about the report of the Red Cross which stated something along the lines of mistreatment, including evidence of humiliation, physical abuse and excessive force.

I am not sure what any of that means to be honest with you unless it is put in an almost case by case perspective. I did not read anything about torture.

I know some people consider hooding and the use of flexcuff as being some for of humiliation or phyiscal abuse. I do not. It is nothing more than a means to control and secure prisoners who have been captured. It is as much a force protection and manpower issue as anything. The alternative to this would be no to constrain then at all. We both know someone is going to make some move that could easily be interpreted as an escape attempt which would result in the prisoner either being shot or killed.

I am equally sure that all those who were picked up or captured all swore it was some mistake. I would and I sure you would too. As these people do not wear team colors, it is pretty hard to decide who is telling the truth and who is not. To be naked in a concert cell without light and kept awake for 23 hours is hardly torture. I even question if it is really abuse.

Thank you for providing the link.


That offends in you in some way?

Hence I'm looking forward for a correction of your "from above's right-wing Frontpage's article" statement.

I forgot in my posting: I was only quoting the Jewish News Weekly of Northern California: "articles for David Horowitz’s right-wing Front Page magazine"

So you think they were mistaken?

But what is more interesting to me in your reply: Why do you (IMO falsely) suggest indirectly that right-wing (or be it "conservative") and civil rights should exclude each other?

There are US-Republicans who published banned material from the radical Left as a public stand for "Free Speech" and civil rights. Constitutional rights can be a matter of principle for some people of all sides in America. And while I certainly disagree with those Republicans on many other issues, I have high respect for their stand on constitutional rights. US ain't Germany in this regard - good for America. (And no, I can not provide you a public link now because it might contain material perhaps illegal in Germany - US-Free Speech is different in some regards)

Now let's get back to Front Page...with articles like the one above on the prison pictures or like "Raze Fallujah", praising indirectly the unnecessary Dresden-firestorm in 1945 and not just one, but both Japan-nukes. Tell me: In what German equivalent newspaper do you think such two articles could be printed, calling to raze a city or indirectly citing a positive effect of the prison pics? If you give me an convincing answer, I'd be willing to gladly correct my perhaps false opinion on Front Page. (and it was my own opinion on FP thus far - the newspaper-quote above was just to yank your chain a bit. But even the man himself admitted to changed his views over the decades, btw: He wrote a book called "Left Illusions: An Odysee")

From FP:
I contend it is now time to raze Fallujah.

I’ll remind you of what it took to quell the beasts of Germany and Japan in 1945: complete and total destruction. There was a reason why we bombed Dresden into oblivion....There was a reason why two atomic bombs had to be dropped on Japan after Hiroshima: they still refused to surrender unconditionally.

Hi there,

I thought you might be interested what Maj. Gen. Tabuga found out in February 2004.


Two extracts from page 16/17:

6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included
the following acts:
a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several
days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being
photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and
attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly
raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a
female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten
detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.


8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which
under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and
supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was
injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats
of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

Call it what you want but it is really disgusting. The report also deals with the involvement of intelligence officials.


@ Matthias

Agree so do I.

It is interesting how a classifed report was able to be posted on the net. I find that to be a bit distrubing too.

It would appear there is a difference of what freedom of speech, and freedom of the press means in Germany and the US.

To imply that such as article that appeared in FP could not appear in a German media source would seem to indicate there is less freedom of the press in Germany not more.


" I was pointing out that your claim that FPM were "right-wing" is incorrect."

From the article:

"Unless you're a hard-core Democrat, you don't pathologically lie to achieve your objectives."

This isn't even in an op-ed, this is in an article. In the American political grid, yup, I'd say this one falls under right wing.

It's a pity when writers can't stop themselves from little digs like that, since it diminishes the credibility of the rest of the article - and I mean that regardless of the writer's political affiliation.

Niko, re: "I never wrote anything to that effect, but rather I was pointing out that your claim that FPM were "right-wing" is incorrect."

I think that there is a complete difference in conservatives in Europe and conservatives in the US. In the US, the far left call anyone who isn't as flaky as they are "right wing", and that includes most conservatives. I think that's where the confusion comes in.

However, I suspect that what many Europeans are overlooking is that everything depends upon what "conservatives" are being conservative about. In the old Soviet Union, a "conservative" was a rote communist so far to the left that he fell off the planet. In Islam, a "conservative" is a religious fundamentalist. In the US, it's completely different.

I'm not sure how a conservative is defined in Europe, but in the US a conservative is a Constitutional Constructionist. We point to the Constitution and say, "This is what the law says...", and when challenged on points of reason, we go back to the writings of the Founders and point out what they meant when they said this or that. They discussed their thoughts on the construction of the Constitution in massive volumes of books and letters.

Liberals look at the Constitution and say, "Well, that was OK 200 years ago, but times change, and we need to keep up." And they have a good point in that. However, modern day liberals have gone WAY too far in seeking to alter the meaning of the Constitution and have drifted TOO far away from the purposes of the Founders, IMHO.

One point of serious contention today is the 1st Amendment as regards religion. The 1st Amendment states, in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" then goes on to discuss free speech, etc.

What this basically says to me is that Congress can NOT create a Church of the United States and force everyone to join or get arrested. This is one of the most obvious phrases of the Founders, many of whom came from families who barely escaped from the Church of England. Congress basically isn't supposed to write any laws about religion at all. But modern day liberals have gone too far in trying to excise religion from government completely. Teachers in New York public schools have been fired for wearing almost invisible Cross or Star of David pendants, because the schools are supported by the Federal government. In other schools, students have actually been forbidden from praying at school functions. In a recent graduation ceremony in Arizona, the only way they could sneak a prayer into the proceedings was by a student speaker pretending to sneeze, whereupon the other students shouted out, "God bless you!" This is going WAY too far, and is having the effect of violating the second clause of the 1st Amendment... "... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The "free exercise" clause is in danger of going the way of the dodo bird if we don't put the brakes on this nonsense.

So... by this I show an example of how liberals are being overly "progressive" and conservatives are fighting to maintain the original message of the Founders.

That is the MAIN difference between US conservatives and liberals. I have no idea how this is defined in Europe... I'm having difficulty detecting the difference between a left-wing European and a communist :(. Perhaps someone here can tell me how you define yourselves, so I can get a handle on it.

"Europa an der Seite der UNO - nicht im Schatten der USA" - Wahlkampfplakat der PDS

"Europe side by side with the UN - not in the shade of the USA" (richtige Übersetzung?)

Schon merkwürdig, wenn in Deutschland die Parteien nicht mehr unterscheidbar sind. Man punktet mit Anti-USA.

The story's "jumping the shark" in the American blogosphere.

Phrase taken from "Happy Days" when Fonzie jumped the shark, the show was over.

Theresa: I'm having difficulty detecting the difference between a left-wing European and a communist

Ideologically hardly any difference. In a nutshell, the communists were killing the innocents and the Western-European left was busy relativating and excusing the killings.


"(11.05.2004 )
Die Schändung unserer Werte


Von Christoph von Marschall

Die Wut wächst. Erst vermuten wir schreckliche Einzelfälle. Dann stellt sich heraus, dass die Verantwortlichen seit langem informiert sind. Jetzt wissen wir: Es hat Methode, wie die Soldaten einer Demokratie im Irak handeln. Gefangene werden sexuell missbraucht, nackte Leiber zu Haufen geschichtet, einige sterben an körperlicher Misshandlung. ..."

Meine Wut wächst auch.
Wir WISSEN noch gar keine Fakten. Bisher sind es ca. 16 Einzelpersonen. Das sind ca. 0,008 Prozent der Truppen, wenn man von 200.000 Soldaten ausgeht.
Woher weiß denn Herr von Marshall, daß dies keine Einzelfälle seien, daß es Methode hätte, befohlen worden sei? Das sind doch bisher nur Behauptungen. Wieder einmal macht er aus Spekulationen Fakten und kommentiert sie.
Meine Wut wächst.
Und meine Enttäuschung über deutsche Journalisten ist grenzenlos.

I can vividly imagine Klink sitting in front of his computer, "Ahh, an article at ... can it be true? FRONTPAGE MAGAZINE!

Rubbish. And you were playing the exact same silly evasive semantic games on amnesty international's human rights report before. Yet you also came up with nothing in the end to rebutt the facts in detail at ai's report (or at least I am still waiting for it until today).

So ... lemme see ... what does Google say?

Still wrong - I even had clearly written further down that my opinion on Front Page was my own and that I posted the Jewish News link just to yank your chain a bit - it's hilarious that you still get off on this, despite my in-your-face disclaimer.

So instead of evading the original topic and only boring the readers: Did you read now the Front Page article in question on the Iraqi torture pictures, which was posted by another person here and do you also condemn it like me or did you like the article?

I find it interesting how the discussion on the link I posted has turned into a debate about whether FP is right wing or not.

That was not the purpose of the link. The purpose of the posting was to only point out there are competing ideas on how to view the pictures reported in the press. It is a competing viewpoint. As some have pointed out, the German press would never publish this competing viewpoint. By limiting competing viewpoints does this protect or insulate citizens from the realities of the world they live in?

Does the ideas presented in the article have any less meaning if one labels FP as left wing or right wing?

I like this article:




The headlines now wounding us will not soon go away. The media, foreign and domestic, will twist every drop of blood from this story of an American misstep. But no matter how much more there is to come, we Americans will admit our errors and fix them. Then we'll move forward, no less determined to do the right thing.

How many other nations in the world could claim as much?

Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad."

Joe, if you can believe it, there are NO competing viewpoints in Germany !! Spiegel-like "journalists" dominate the German mass media (TV, newspapers). A lone voice in the desert is being heard once in a while, just for "cultural diversity". That's about it... No wonder the Germans have no REAL clue about things. (Of course, they are conviced they know it ALL)

Recently I talked to an open-minded German who reads the "best" German newspaper (Die Zeit) regularly. This person is more informed than the ordinary German and she is NOT anti-American. She doesn't read blogs, but she follows daily German mass media. I told her just a few general things, no accusations, about the Food-for-Oil scandal. She not only didn't know about the magnitude and embarrassment of this scandal, but she didn't even know it was an issue. She had read a few things about it, but didn't believe it was a big thing... Needless to say, she didn't believe me either. That's German media in action...

The German "elites" want to insulate the people from the evil coming from the US and from the truth. Nobody forces them to do it, they do it voluntarily. This is self-imposed, ideological censorship, while at the same time decrying the "neo-con censorship" in the US. Their superiority complex also tells them they are predestined to rule the stupid people.

This is a very interesting article. It talks about American "liberals", but it also applies to German "liberals".



Lies den Untersuchungsbericht. Sieh die Bilder. Hol Dir die Aussagen von ex-Gefangenen ins Gedächtnis (vielleicht muß man diese mittlerweile mit anderen Augen lesen), schau was ai und das IKRK an Bemerkungen hierzu von sich gibt und was Bush, Rumsfeld und Konsorten dazu sagen.

Hälst Du es wirklich für möglich, in einem amerikanisch geführten Gefängenis z. T. stunden und tagelange Foltermethoden (nicht Mißbrauch) anzuwenden, unter der Anwesenheit von bis zu 7 Soldaten mit z. T. mittleren Rängen ohne daß es "auffällt"???

Hälst Du es wirklich für möglich, daß derartige Bilder und Videos in der Truppe praktisch frei zirkulieren können, ohne daß die darauf abgebildeten jemals auf den Gedanken gekommen sind, daß sie für ihre "Verbrechen" belangt werden könnten???

Findest Du es nicht seltsam, daß entsprechende Berichte (gemäß einem Interview mit einem Angehörigen des IKRK) schon vor Monaten an die US Regierung übermittelt wurden und was geschah?

Wenn Du kritisch über vieles nachdenkst, wird einiges klarer und einiges fraglicher.

There's no quotes around the "the ... article" block, it's not in italics, but rather in bold letters

Of course - I mean what I said there.

In that post you say that you were only quoting from the Jewish News Weekly, adding "So you think they were mistaken?" (emphasis mine). Hm. So why did you write, "I even had clearly written further down that my opinion on Front Page was my own and that I posted the Jewish News link just to yank your chain a bit" then?

To make clear to you once again that I only wanted to mess with you on that Jewish News-link and you shouldn't pay attention to it, but only to the rest! It was meant as a JOKE, to yank your chains a bit (and perhaps show you that others see it as well like me) - and I cleared it up later in that very same posting.

Let's revisit again. I first said in this posting:

I forgot in my posting: I was only quoting the Jewish News Weekly of Northern California: "articles for David Horowitz’s right-wing Front Page magazine"
So you think they were mistaken?

And to clear later up that this comment was meant tongue-in-cheek and that it was really me as well who sees FP as right-wing, I added in THE SAME POSTING:

(and it was my own opinion on FP thus far - the newspaper-quote above was just to yank your chain a bit)

WTF is unclear here? You are not usually that dense.

Puuh - I think I was too successfull in that chain-yanking.

You all can be so funny at times.

It would seem whether an article comes from the left wing or the right wing is more important than the ideas expressed in the article

It would seem however this is a moot point as these ideas would not be published in Germany anyway.

So much for the concept of competing points of view or of a free press.

That's why I often use the term "smear tactics" when someone (like Klink) dismisses an article by pointing out it were "right-wing".

What a smear-tactic to suggest that Klink dismissed the article with a label. The article was read and judged on its own.


Then I think we might share the same ground. We both seem to believe to be a well-informed person one should read and listen to viewpoints that attack their own bias. Then through the process of this come to a position which one feels comfortable with and which reflects their point of view.

To be able to do this one has to be willing to listen to competing points of view. If one chooses not to do this then they become a pawn of the elites and in many ways lose control over a piece of their being that they should control.

ein differenzierter und sehr guter kommentar zu dem Thema:


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