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Their are two key concerns. The first centers on the re-emergence of America's geopolitical tradition of keeping one foot in the East and one in the West. The arming of Tzarist Russia in Word War I by the US (which decided to support the Russian and Serbian state sponsors of pan-Slavistic terrorism responsible for the atrocity at Sarajevo), the open arming of Stalinist Russia and America's role in the relocation of Soviet industries behind the Ural during World War II, and the division of Eastern Europe between Roosevelt and Stalin marked the darkest chapters of that tradition.

@Tropby
The comparison you are trying to draw is so ludicrious and stupid that I hope you are just making fun.

Trying to create a moral duty of one nation to pressure another one by nitpicking historical episodes is so ludicrous and stupid that I hope the authors of said article are making fun.

What about German-Russian cooperation, that stopped Napoleon at Leipzig, a condicio sine qua non of the modern Anglophone world? etc. etc .etc.

The author also forgets to mention the - to be polite - confrontational steps taken by the current Polish government against Germany. It was Germany, that championed Polish EU-membership, but ... Let us just say that official anti-Americanism in Germany is harmless compared to anti-German rhetoric by the current Polish regime.

He also fails to mention that Poland demands unrelated agricultural concessions as a condition for renewing the EU's "strategic partnership" with Moscow. The Poles are behaving as badly as the French, but are lacking French charisma.

The US has reacted to German criticism by e.g. no longer supporting the German proposals for reforming the UN. Germany reacts to a Polish lack of solidarity and repeated insults with reduced support.


If WWI disagreements are brought up surely the Ottoman Empire belongs into the picture, and if Richard Nixon is brought up Günter Guillaume needs a mentioning as well.

As to Putin, is the final status of the Königsberg exclave a German or an European issue?

This is off topic, but it relates to the state kidnapping of Melissa Busekros discussed in an earlier thread. SPON has just posted a lame attempt to rationalize this incredibly egregious incident of official thuggery. It turns out the real villains are (you guessed it), the Christian fundamentalists in the US, a favorite out-group of the fundamentalist adherents of the leftist secular religion that currently controls the German state in what, for all intents and purposes, amounts to a theocracy with no god. Here's a clue for Jochen Leffers und Britta Mersch, the authors of SPON's latest hit piece. I'm an atheist. I consider the existence of a God no more probable than the existence of fairies in my garden. I do not particularly approve of home schooling, nor, for that matter, of Christian fundamentalists. However, it is beyond me how any even marginally rational person can look at the facts in this case and perceive it as anything but an incredibly vile incident of state brutalization of a child and tyranny of the worst sort. These leftist thugs are fond of striking lugubrious poses over the case of Edgardo Mortara, a six-year-old child of Jewish parents who was kidnapped by Catholic authorities in 1858 in order to "save" him by bringing him up a Christian. Yet when an entirely analogous incident happens in our own day, right under their noses, suddenly their fine sense of justice fails them. After all, this time the kidnappers are their ideological clones. Evidently the principle here is that kidnapping is OK as long as the kidnappers share your ideological prejudices. So much for the German avatars of "reason" and "justice." The incident itself and, now, the German media's attempt to whitewash it are truly sickening. We live in a scary world.

@ Helian,

Citizens are just slaves to their politicians.
In the democratic West they just have the right to choose their own masters.

By te way, as a side note, I thought I was an atheist, then mocified it to being an Agnostic, but after further deliberation, I believe that being a Deist more accurately describes my belief.

@ Helian

Get the history right, the Mortara case was not used by "leftist thugs", but by several European powers interested in Italian unification and especially by nativists in the US. A piece of anti-catholic propaganda used by good protestant Americans to incite hatred against the catholic Irish hordes threatening US liberty and culture by immigration.

Some sources can be found there:

http://www.dannyscl.net/academic/mortara.pdf

@Tropby

"Get the history right,..."

I suggest you read your own link, Tropby, this time without excluding the possibility that there has actually been comment on the case more recently than 1860.

@americanbychoice

"By te way, as a side note, I thought I was an atheist, then mocified it to being an Agnostic, but after further deliberation, I believe that being a Deist more accurately describes my belief."

With that history, there's no need to worry about going to heaven if you ever become famous. They'll surely complete the process and convert you to Christianity in absentia after you die.

Back to the topic...

It is just plain comical to portray a purely defensive anti-missile umbrella as a threat which could spark a new arms race. It is akin for someone to complain that his neighbor installing a security alarm was going to make his own house somehow unsafe.

I am holding out hope that the people of Germany (and the rest of Europe) are smart enough not to fall for these distortions.

Also. isn't it strange that we have Germany telling its neighbors how to conduct their bilateral relations? For a nation that always wants to complain that it was treated like America's little brother (nevermind that they were laughing all the way to the bank), they would be a bit more sensitive to the way they treat smaller nations.

Claims that Germany likes to position itself between East and West, playing each against the other for its own benefit, have deep roots in German soil. What other country would praise as a great statesman, Otto von Bismark, who forged the Ems Dispatch to trigger a war between Germany and France, so Germany could grab Alsace-Lorraine?

As historians have noted, no German leader since Bismarck has displayed Bismarck's skill at this balancing act, and none have shown the good sense he displayed for knowing when the scheming had to be set aside. After Bismarck, Germany abandoned its de facto alliance with Russia, gaining nothing in the process, but forcing the nation into the potential for a two-front war that started the long slide toward WWI.

Today's Germany is making the same mistake in reverse. Its tilt toward Russia may get it cheaper natural gas in the short term, but in the long run, Russia, backward and increasingly authoritarian, is of no value as an ally. By tilting against the US, Germany gains nothing and looses the support of a country that stood by it for almost half a century, risking nuclear war to keep it democratic. Bismarck would never be that foolish.

Europeans should never forget two things.

First, keep in mind that Europe matters far less to Americans than America does to Europeans. You watch our elections avidly. With the partial exception of Britain, most Americans would have trouble naming the heads of any European country. We view Europe as a tourist destination that's a bit more pricey than Disneyland. Aside from the luxury cars our rich buy, there's little you do culturally and little you make in your factories that we need. Why buy French wine when ours is just as good?

Second, to the extent that the average American notices Europe, every time a France or Germany does something like toading up to terrorists, it reinforces the feeling that we now have little in common with Europe and thus little reason to be concerned about its problems. We went to war twice in the twentieth century because of European blunders and where did it get us--the sneers of European politicians and nasty articles in the European press? Why bother a third time? Besides, if Europe gets in trouble again, our attention is likely to be directed elsewhere--to Latin America and Asia, places a growing percentage of our population regard as their homeland. The more diverse the US becomes, the less reason it has to regard Europe as anything special.

--Mike Perry, Editor of Chesterton on War (soon out)

@Inkling,
Well said but one correction:

"We went to war twice in the twentieth century because of European blunders..."

Don't forget the Balkans - that makes it three times in the last century (or four if you count Bosnia and Kosovo separately).

The Europeans are literally committing slow motion collective suicide. Those remaining will just be subjects of their Muslim overlords in 40 years. So what they do now matters little to anyone in the long run. No point shedding blood for them yet again. Especially if it hurts our relationship with countries important for the future of America like India, China or Australia.

One can assume the position of Germany is that Iran represents no threat to them or for that matter the rest of Europe. In fact are there any real threats that Germans do recognize other than those caused by the US and Israel?

The good news is this is just one more issue which separates the US from its “so called” European allies. With luck the continuing thrashing about within NATO about what to do in Afghanistan and now this might add another nail in the coffin known as NATO.

NATO is a long term security threat to the US.

"We went to war twice in the twentieth century because of European blunders"

Rubbish. The US joined the Allies in the Great War to secure the financial interests of US companies, which had sold vast amounts of armaments on credit. No Allied victory = defaulting credits = big oops.

WW I would have ended with either a victory by the Central Powers or a stalemate, if the US had acted according to the Monroe doctrine. Either outcome would not have resulted in a Versailles Treaty, a humiliated and isolated German Republic and the rise of the Nazis.

"We went to war twice in the twentieth century because of European blunders"

Nope, to secure US financial interests and as a result of this meddling.

Nope, to secure US financial interests and as a result of this meddling.

The Internet is a wonderful "thing", but it has one huge drawback: it has brought into our homes and lifes a vast number of deranged, repulsive individuals, a number far larger than I would have been exposed to otherwise.

WDIK,

Actually the internet is wonderful. It gives us an opportunity to know people like Matz, blue and Trobpy.

They surely add to the understanding of who today’s Germans are.

@Tropby

Nope, to secure US financial interests and as a result of this meddling.

Is this what they teach in German schools these days? Despicable! And you wonder why Americans are insulted by such garbage?

How do you twist your supposed history around the well established facts of US policy following our victory in both the wars with Germany? We could have done anything we wanted. It wasn't the US that was beating reparations out of you.

@ Tropby

“Let us just say that official anti-Americanism in Germany is harmless compared to anti-German rhetoric by the current Polish regime.”

Could this anti-German rhetoric have anything to do with the attitude of some people in Germany toward the Poles? This is your comment from the last post: “We Germans traditionally have no problems dealing with Poles, they just need clear and simple orders.”

>> Could this anti-German rhetoric have anything to do with the attitude of some people in Germany toward the Poles?

Indeed. Not the single reason, but it's surely part of it. Please note the description: "Polish regime".

About the only the thing American munitions plants were able to contribute to the WWI war effort was barbed wire and wheat. No planes, a few artillery pieces and in many cases no rifles made it from US factories to the doughboys much less the Czarist armies. Much of the weaponry the US used in that war actually came from the French and British In WWII, Air Chief Marshall Dowding, echoed many vets in dismissing the idea that the US would be able to send any material aid to Britain in the early stages of the war.

Amusing how Americans react to anybody not agreeing with their national myths ... aggressive reactions combined with insulting language use normally indicate weak debating skills and/or an intellectually flawed position.

Oh, Marisa, taking a jocular response to a question about the alleged thread of changing magnetic Poles out of context, is quite low. But I suppose watching FOX for longer periods does this to one´s moral compass.

David, and the rest need to read this
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1980, hope the link works
if not, it is the lead story over at The Brussels Journal.

"While Germany's power will inevitably grow"?!!??

Where, when, how! Which power? The power of a nation growing old and older? Of a nation that will have lost 1/4th of its population in 2050? Of a nation that exports to the US, Canada, and Australia its young and brightests and imports train loads of uneducated Turks and other Muslims? Of a nation that has no economic backbone left? Of a nation whose soldiers are hiding in their hotels of Kabul playing war on their Play Station rather than in the mountains of the South? A nation whose leader renegaded all her program just to make sure she would become Kanzlerin? Of a nation that praises Putin over Bush?

Germany's power. What a joke!

And pairing with Russia wont help, the soviets are even more useless and die at 58 years of age.

"Amusing how Americans react to anybody not agreeing with their national myths..."

Yes, Tropby, we know. YOUR version of history that you have acquired from the socialist, racist feudal masters in Germany and their willing helpers in the media is the one and only Truth. YGBSM. Not only are you ignorant, you're arrogant as well.

WDIK and Joe, you got it right. Unfortunately, my experience has shown me that Germany's efficient propaganda machine has produced almost an entire nation of Tropbys. Sadly, the Mirs are very much a minority.

@ Scout

You got that right. One needs to use the internet to get an impression of what's going on in the world. Rewriting of history to fit worldviews and agendas has become common here in Germany.

The difference between our MSM and the media of the GDR? They just told people what to think. Our media lets their viewers make their own decision - based on (distorted or plain wrong) "facts", (carefully selected) "experts" and politically correct reporting (which includes simply ignoring unwanted opinions). I despise and pity the Tropbys of which we unfortunately have so many. They watch our MSM and think of them oh-so-wise, but they are only parroting senseless left-wing talking points.

Many of them are otherwise nice people, but when it comes to politics, they are somehow trapped in their parallel worlds, oblivious to arguments and facts.

"The US joined the Allies in the Great War to secure the financial interests of US companies, which had sold vast amounts of armaments on credit. No Allied victory = defaulting credits = big oops."

I'm amused by someone coming up with these myths.

What "vast amounts of armaments" were sold? To whom? I know the American Air Corps used French planes, because the American ones of that era were not capable. Am I supposed to believe the French and Germans bought planes from us? The French and the British used their own rifles and machine guns. I'm fairly sure they had their own artillery as well. Are you saying the American government sold munitions, or some American companies sold them? In what quantities? To whom? On credit?

Sorry, this evidence simply doesn't pass the smell test.

MarkD:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/world_war_1.htm

"While armies moved across the face of Europe, the United States remained neutral. With the onset of World War One, the United States, despite its declared neutrality, rapidly emerged as the leading participant in the international munitions trade. During the period of its neutrality -- August 1914 to March 1917 -- the United States exported approximately $2.2 billion in war supplies to Europe. In 1916, the United States shipped more than $1 billion of arms in a single year. (The enormity of the American presence in the international arms market of that period is suggested by the fact that by 1920 the United States accounted for more than 52% of global arms exports.)"

You were exporting such large amounts of weapons and ammunitions that You had to use passenger liners like the Lusitania with its human shields to ship all the stuff.

Sorry about historical facts not passing the smell test.

MarkD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Nye

"In 1934 Senator Nye headed an investigation of the munitions industry. Once again, he sniffed out corruption and created headlines by making connections between the wartime profits of the banking and munitions industries and America's involvement in World War I. Many Americans felt betrayed: perhaps the war hadn't been an epic battle between the forces of good (democracy) and evil (autocracy). This investigation of these "merchants of death" helped to bolster sentiments for isolationism."

You may want to research the neutrality acts and why the US switched to a cash-and-carry policy on arms exports pre-WW II.

So, Tropby, what did the Berlin Candy Bomber get out of it?

Yes, this is what they think, I think this trope? was started by our "good friends and historic allies."

Makes me sick thinking of the hard work my grandparents, parents and me and my husband have been taxed on to pay for your protection.

What did we actually spend on protecting you guys in the end, trillions????

For what? Tribalism.

1000 years, you people haven't changed.

Amusing how Americans react to anybody not agreeing with their national myth

tropby, you little idiotic revisionist

What is even more "amusing" is your assumption that only Americans would react negatively at your scabrous interpretation of history. This only illustrates (again) your shallowness. I happen to be German (even though most Germans consider me Romanian), but in a few years I will become indeed American. So much for your power of deduction. You slowly begin manifesting subtle chracteristics of a troll.

The Internet is filled with beings like you, burdened by the insignificance of their pathetic life, who believe that by blindly smearing the ones they dislike they can gain a level of self-respect, which eludes them in real life.

Of course our "good friends and historic allies" history books taught the Big Bad Bear was good and we were the bad empire, and this was in the 80s.

Tropby throwing stones about national myth???????

hehehehehehehehhahahahahHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I recall they didn't like the missile shield in the 80s, either.

This is what they want, they can't get past being serfs.

Actually the internet is wonderful. It gives us an opportunity to know people like Matz, blue and Trobpy.

They surely add to the understanding of who today’s Germans are.

Joe

That's true, the Internet is a cleanser. It cleanses the image that Americans have of Germans as a whole as being staunch supporters of America (I am not talking necessarily about Iraq).

However, I would say that people like tropby and gunter are in minority in Germany. They are very vocal and make themselves heard more often, but they are not really representing all the Germans. Most Germans are maybe not friendly towards America, but they are also not extremists like the minority I mentioned before. There is though a "klein, aber fein" minority of Germans who is truly a friend of America, even if they may disagree with some of America's policies.

@ Sandy P:

"So, Tropby, what did the Berlin Candy Bomber get out of it?"

A victory in the Cold War made possible not only by American pilots, but also by the population of West-Berlin. Remember Joint Chiefs of Staff Directive 1067, which stayed in effect until mid-1947 and the decline in the German post-war population under this partial implementation of the Morgenthau plan. The treatment of Germany pre-1948 tends to be taboo.

@ WhatDoIKnow:

"The Internet is filled with beings like you, burdened by the insignificance of their pathetic life, who believe that by blindly smearing the ones they dislike they can gain a level of self-respect, which eludes them in real life."

Your inability to respond to factual claims with anything but insults indicates that the loss to Germany by Your emigration should be limited.

But You should display some gratitude for the nation which paid for Your, admittedly limited, education.

Your inability to respond to factual claims

There is a very good reason why I don't even consider debating you (it's the same reason why I didn't debate another one or your ilk - gunter): *I don't wrestle with pigs*.

You should display some gratitude for the nation

The more you talk, the more idiocy pours out and pollutes the environment. If I don't wrestle with a (German) pig, the (German) pig considers I don't have any gratitude for Germany. Stupidity galore... Since when does the (German) pig represent entire Germany? Since when showing respect for Germany implies respecting every (German) pig? My personal feelings for Germany are just that - personal. A (German) pig is the last creature on this green Earth I would discuss them with.

Your lack of respect for the nation and people who contributed decisively towards making Germany what it is today hides one thing - your lack of self-respect. In fact your attitude doesn't hide your lack of self-respect, it exposes it loudly. You are a pathetic tiny personality who was been offered a huge high-tech megaphone (the Internet), and grabbed greedily the opportunity to reveal the darkest corners of your soul.

WDIK

You forget Poland attacked Germany. Germany was only defending the fatherland. You need to go back study this new history.

Why do think the Germans feel so morally superior, they were the victims.

"Amusing how Americans react to anybody not agreeing with their national myths..."

Es ist immer wieder witzig, deine Beiträge zu lesen. Aber in Wirklichkeit ist es keine Ignoranz deinerseits, sondern purer Revisionismus, das ist mir durchaus bewußt. Offenbar ist dir aber das Prinzip der sich wiederholenden Geschichte nicht bewußt. Nun, es existierte auch nicht, gäbe es Leute wie dich nicht.

...another thread hijacked by dogmatic revisionists from Hoyerswerda.

Back on topic, how can anyone honestly claim that a defensive missile shield is somehow a sign of aggression?

Trophy:

"You were exporting such large amounts of weapons and ammunitions that You had to use passenger liners like the Lusitania with its human shields to ship all the stuff."

Trophy remarks: "Sorry about historical facts not passing the smell test."

The Lusitania was a British flagged ship:
http://web.greatships.net:81/lusitania.html

The man who controls both merchant and naval use of England's ships is the Lord of the Admiralty. Any idea who was the Lord of the Admiralty at that time, Trophy? His name was Winston Churchill. Churchill knew that the sinking of a merchant ship, with large amounts of civilian casualties, (Think Titanic, which sunk 4 years earlier), would infuriate American public opinion against Germany. The German consulate posted warning notices in the New York Times, warning travelers that the Lusitania was game. Just like Hitler declaring war on America after Pearl Harbor, the Kaiser's navy insisted on sinking a British passenger ship, knowing that there would be many American casualties.

Geeze, you guys are your own worst enemies.

Nah, Hector, here's another myth for Tropby - "God protects, drunks, fools, and the United States of America."

End of Tora! Tora! Tora! is on.

----

The world is back to normal, it's just that most of us never lived thru this and now we can access the world 24/7.

...and let's not forget that after Pearl Harbor, the US Congress declared was on Japan, not Germany. Germany declared war on the US - so much for the US getting into the European war for profits and other nonsense.

Meanwhile, how can anyone honestly claim that a defensive missile shield is somehow a sign of aggression? Aren't people in Germany too wise to fall for such quatsch?

Inkling,

Bismarck was a power balancing artist with an additional skill to be at the right place at the right time, specifically when the contradiction between aristocracy and democracy, which remained latent since the oppression of the revolution of 1848, became manifest in the political system.*

These characters do exist in any political environment, a current (larva stadium) example in the U.S.A. would be arkos Moulitsas Zúniga.

We view Europe as a tourist destination that's a bit more pricey than Disneyland.

I understand that in the Al Gore mindset, Europe would be little more than a grabbeltisch (as would be Israel), but does this as well apply outside the agglomeration of insanity that is the television crowd?

@Alex N.
You are right! This guy is really a shame for Germany... Was für ein Idiot!

Alex N.:

"Aber in Wirklichkeit ist es keine Ignoranz deinerseits, sondern purer Revisionismus, das ist mir durchaus bewußt."

Ich nutze nicht nur konservative Boards wie diese, sondern auch solche von harten Linken und gemäßigten Islamisten. Beide Gruppen haben - zumindest in meiner Erfahrung - eine weiter entwickelte Gesprächskultur als diese Gruppe, die auf abweichende Meinungen nur (!) mit Beleidigungen reagieren kann. Pathetisch. Der Revisionismus-Vorwurf ist beinahe lustig,
wenn auch idiotisch.

George M.:

That´s why I added the human shields comment, indicating parallels between Allied behaviour in WWI and Saddam´s hostages pre-Iraq 1.0. I simply assumed that everybody knows about the Lusitania, its manipulated manifest, the changed course after the removal of a sub-hunter from position, the missing files in the British war archives etc. .

Hector07:

You do know that US destroyer had been regularly attacking German subs prior to the German declaration of war, don´t You? Lend and Lease?

The remarks about commercial motivation were about WW I, not WW II.

Your Hoyerswerda-comment made me smile, as You are displaying a similar lack of historical knowledge (to be polite) as many victims of the East-German educational/propaganda system.

"Ich nutze nicht nur konservative Boards wie diese, sondern auch solche von harten Linken und gemäßigten Islamisten. Beide Gruppen haben - zumindest in meiner Erfahrung - eine weiter entwickelte Gesprächskultur als diese Gruppe, die auf abweichende Meinungen nur (!) mit Beleidigungen reagieren kann."


That you find it somehow worth your time to engage in discourse with Commies and Islamists doesn't really surprise me. So, if you don't like how people treat you here (even though your claim is way off), why don't you just stick to the Islamists who have such high debating skills as per your account.

@ Alex N.:

One should always look at different opinions, as listening to Your own positions mouthed by people of a similar sentiment does not improve the mind. An educated mind should always question his convictions by listening to different beliefs.

Discussions with US conservatives on other boards have e.g. changed my position on gun ownership.

Listening to Muslims is a must, even if one only believes in "knowing the enemy". It is admittedly fun to defend the papal quote of a Greek emperor, by quoting Islamic religious law at the Islamist´s heads. These Islamist had a share of insulting pricks, too, but some knew their scripture and were able to use basic debating skills.

If I may drop in on the conversation for a minute? We are having a problem on our side of the pond with the libs denigrating our troops in their fight against the war. It is rightly so that we should have that problem, the troops are doing what they are supposed to do and that is do what they are assigned. If there is a problem with what is going on (and I support the action) it is at the political level. The same thing goes for the German Army. They are following their assigned duties. Could everyone do me the favor of staying off their back. The German Navy did us the service of recognizing 911 when the political support was dwindling. They do not deserve the name of coward that is so easily thrown around. If they're told to fight I have no doubt that they will acquit themselves in an exemplary manner. Now let me fade out again.

One should always look at different opinions

I had an acquaintance who, just like our revisionist commenter tropby, would always claim that he is interested in 911 conspiracies not because he believes them, but because he is "open minded" (his words). Let's assume he didn't really believe those conspiracies; however, he never got the point that being constantly "open minded" to garbage will automatically turn your mind into a repository of garbage. Ultimately my acquaintance ended up just like tropby - garbage in, garbage out.

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